Wild West MMO

killercod · July 2007

Anyone else wanna see something like this? It's just about the only genre that hasn't been done, and I think it has great potential. Can be historical of nature, or completely fictional just with the same flavor.

Profession based: Gambler, Lawman, Outlaw, Cowboy, Miner, Merchant...whatever

Crafting: Gotta have stuff! Definately some room to explore there

Player Housing, structures, and community building: Lincoln logs type stuff FTW!

Exploration: Wide open frontier lands to explore, and claim for whatever reason

Aiight...chat this up or burn me down...

Keelmackay · July 2007

Don't forget the Secret Agent class -- I'm thinking "Wild Wild West" here. (The series, not that awful movie.)

Angelfire · July 2007

Oh I absolutely agree this is untapped potential. Have put conciderable thought into it. I wouldn't nessicarly want cowboy wild west ala Billy the Kid and Jesse James ..but more along the lines of Deadwood or Legends of the Fall. Great American expansionist movement meets gold rush. They would certainly need to avoid the cowboy and indian sink hole ..thats a whole lot of trouble waiting to happen.

As for the professions I would rather they do away with them all together ..instead going skill based to allow a wider variety of versatility. I would however really like to see some kinda land claim system in place (including housing) .. which could of course lead to claim jumpers. hehe. I think a game like that would need a diverse enviroment to explore. Rolling plains, mountain mining towns, and snow covered passes (can you say donner party?). A gunfighting duel system would be a must also. Yep it could certainly work if it was done correctly.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by killercod
Anyone else wanna see something like this? It's just about the only genre that hasn't been done, and I think it has great potential. Can be historical of nature, or completely fictional just with the same flavor.
Profession based: Gambler, Lawman, Outlaw, Cowboy, Miner, Merchant...whatever
Crafting: Gotta have stuff! Definately some room to explore there
Player Housing, structures, and community building: Lincoln logs type stuff FTW!
Exploration: Wide open frontier lands to explore, and claim for whatever reason

Aiight...chat this up or burn me down...

Get rid of the professions and make it skill based instead. The Wild West is not distinct enough to offer a whole lot of wild varied classes that are dissimilar to each other.

I mean there were lawmen who became outlaws and then went back to being lawmen and vise versa. Anyone could of been a gambler and there were many outlaws, merchants, miners and as well as lawmen that were gamblers.

The thing about the Wild West is that people were free to choose their path in life in a wild and reckless time where law and order where sometimes only administered at the barrel of a gun or the end of a rope by a angry crazed mob. The Wild West was not limited to arbitrary titles or "classes" and neither should a MMO about the Wild West be either.

Yup make it skill based and then you'll have something. Make it FFA PvP as well but with consequences for people who turn red and gank others. You go red and PK then you become a "outlaw" for a few days if not weeks and can only go to outlaw havens to get supplies and craft. Maybe you'll have to do some quests to redeem yourself with the population in order to be able to walk back into town safely.

If you don't then if you walk into town after killing a player and you'll get lynched by a mob of citizens or shot dead by the local sherrif or bounty hunters ( who should be players as well ) in town. People should also be able to place bounties those who have PK'd but they'll have to put up their own money for the reward.

Crafting should also be skill based and you should have player housing and saloons and ranches that serve as "guild housing". Their should also be the ability to pursue fluff careers such as barber, saloon dancer, town drunk, rodeo rider, rodeo clown, that add nothing to the combat aspect but just allow people to RP and maybe also contribute to the crafting side of the game etc....

Don't make the mistake of SWG and allow fluff careers to give out uber combat buffs! These careers should be fluff careers and easy to level up. They should grant you access to titles, unique crafting recipes or supplies, and RP gear but nothing else that would adversely effect combat and pvp gameplay in the game!

Of course you should have all the races that were present in the Wild West. Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans and White people and they should all be equally represented in the character creation screen with tons of options to create a very distinct ethnic or non-ethnic looking player. Sorry having only skin tones will not cut it and in fact would be a insult because the West was not a Euro-Centric era by any stretch of the imagination. Also having the ability to create tall, short, skinny, fat, muscular, average build, ugly, pretty, people is a must on top of the racial character creation options !!!!!!

Well this is just my view point on how I would handle a W.W. MMO theme.

Keelmackay · July 2007

Originally posted by Angelfire

...
As for the professions I would rather they do away with them all together ..instead going skill based to allow a wider variety of versatility....

Fair enough -- change my post to read "Secret Agent" skills -- martial arts (fisticuffs anyway), concealed weapons (also great for gamblers), period gadgets, disguises, etc.

Oh, and please don't make me walk from town to town (unless it's temporary after my horse gets stolen or the stagecoach wrecks).

One nice thing about the Wild West is there's plenty of free lore to work from, with lots of cross-over possibilities -- cowboys & aliens, cowboys & dinosaurs, ancient native-american civilizations, and so on.

M1sf1t · July 2007

I agree mounts should not be a issue in this game at all. They should not be a ub3r item to own. You should though be able to own herds of horse, cattle, sheep etc... and have to take care of them and have crafters of different professions help you maintian them so that you can sell them off to other players for mounts or crafting supplies. In fact player breed horses should with enough breeding skill allow for faster travel then in game bought mounts IMHO. Any Wild West MMO should be crafting friendly and offer a huge ability to craft a tons of things in game that are useful to all players of all skill levels.

Keelmackay · July 2007

Originally posted by M1sf1t...
Of course you should have all the races that were present in the Wild West. Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans and White people ...

That Asian reminder opens up other cross-over possibilities, including swords for the folks who really want them. (Remember Red Sun with Charles Bronson and Toshiro Mifune?) Though I suppose that option is already there with swords still in use by the cavalry.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by Keelmackay
Originally posted by M1sf1t...
Of course you should have all the races that were present in the Wild West. Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans and White people ...

That Asian reminder opens up other cross-over possibilities, including swords for the folks who really want them. (Remember Red Sun with Charles Bronson and Toshiro Mifune?) Though I suppose that option is already there with swords still in use by the cavalry.

Yes the US calavary also had it's officers carry swords and native Americans had spears and tomhawks and most people carried rather large buck knives. So melee combat is going to have to be put into the game and these melee weapons should make it in. along with hand guns, rifles, shotguns, bows and throwing spears. I don't think Asian style weapons should be the norm or easy to get IMHO. They weren't all over the place in the Wild West so they should remain rare items of prestiage that might be gotten when completing a long well written series of quests.

Yeah quest should be well down and have allow of character if they are put into the game. My motto is if you put it in you should make sure it doesn't suck other wise don't have it all.

jahar · July 2007

there used to be a game in development called "Priest". the concept was pretty much "wild west with demons". it looked pretty cool, put then they pulled the english website, leaving only the korean one, and now i cant seem to get that at all.. its too bad, it looked kinda cool.

Samuraisword · July 2007

http://frontier1859.com/

Solanar · July 2007

I doubt a wild west mmo would work very well, mmo's just aren't made for that setting

cool idea, but probably why no one's done one is why no one's done one....

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by jahar
there used to be a game in development called "Priest". the concept was pretty much "wild west with demons". it looked pretty cool, put then they pulled the english website, leaving only the korean one, and now i cant seem to get that at all.. its too bad, it looked kinda cool.

Meh throwing in fantasy elements IMHO would only serve to dilute the atmosphere of a Wild West game. You don't need demons, aliens, or orks to make a game fun. Having a Wild West game based on the real Wild West and the issues and stories around it can be more then enough to keep people interested. There is more then enough content in the real story of the Wild West to allow for a MMO that isn't full of demons, vampires, elvs, orks, robots, etc.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by Solanar
I doubt a wild west mmo would work very well, mmo's just aren't made for that setting
cool idea, but probably why no one's done one is why no one's done one....

No one has done it because it's easier to make Ork and Elf MMO's. Which is why the Sci-Fi and other MMO genres are so anemic with MMO titles. Some one has try it and discover how to be succesful with ideas that work and don't work in order to lay the ground for industry leaders to copy work if you want them to follow up and expand a genre. It isn't easy but nothing that is great and worth doing ever is IMHO.

johnnychangs · July 2007

What about a Dark Tower MMO? Have epic questlines with doors to different times and worlds.

severius · July 2007

Originally posted by killercod

Anyone else wanna see something like this? It's just about the only genre that hasn't been done, and I think it has great potential. Can be historical of nature, or completely fictional just with the same flavor.
Profession based: Gambler, Lawman, Outlaw, Cowboy, Miner, Merchant...whatever
Crafting: Gotta have stuff! Definately some room to explore there
Player Housing, structures, and community building: Lincoln logs type stuff FTW!
Exploration: Wide open frontier lands to explore, and claim for whatever reason

Aiight...chat this up or burn me down...

Actually this wouldnt be too terrible of a genre for an mmog. Historical would have some issues most likely as the 19th century was filled with racism bigotry etc. However a psuedo historical setting may not be bad. Lets see.

Profession based? hell no. Maybe a psuedo profession/skill based system similar to SWG pre-cu. Many lawmen in the old west were not just strictly lawmen but were gamblers, outlaws, rustlers etc. Many outlaws were former soldiers from the Civil War, Mexican American War, and the Indian Wars or had been ranchers and the like that through some tragedy became outlaws.

Crafting would be a good idea to have... along with the above. Mountain Men for example were crack shots, trackers, hunters, scouts etc.

Player housing would of course be a great thing, along with player run towns. An entire dynamic could be set up behind those towns... kinda Deadwood style working to eventually become legitmized and part of the "union". This of course would tie in with the crafting available... things like connecting to the railroad or something. All structures should be player crafted.

There would need to be a new leveling system as well... a new way to grow your character. People will get bored to tears of killing foxes, coyotes, buffalo and bears all day long. And I would guarantee that someone would get bent out of shape if you spent a good portion of your days in game gunning down mexicans, indians, and spaniards.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by severius
Originally posted by killercod
Anyone else wanna see something like this? It's just about the only genre that hasn't been done, and I think it has great potential. Can be historical of nature, or completely fictional just with the same flavor.
Profession based: Gambler, Lawman, Outlaw, Cowboy, Miner, Merchant...whatever
Crafting: Gotta have stuff! Definately some room to explore there
Player Housing, structures, and community building: Lincoln logs type stuff FTW!
Exploration: Wide open frontier lands to explore, and claim for whatever reason

Aiight...chat this up or burn me down...
Actually this wouldnt be too terrible of a genre for an mmog. Historical would have some issues most likely as the 19th century was filled with racism bigotry etc. However a psuedo historical setting may not be bad. Lets see.
Profession based? hell no. Maybe a psuedo profession/skill based system similar to SWG pre-cu. Many lawmen in the old west were not just strictly lawmen but were gamblers, outlaws, rustlers etc. Many outlaws were former soldiers from the Civil War, Mexican American War, and the Indian Wars or had been ranchers and the like that through some tragedy became outlaws.
Crafting would be a good idea to have... along with the above. Mountain Men for example were crack shots, trackers, hunters, scouts etc.
Player housing would of course be a great thing, along with player run towns. An entire dynamic could be set up behind those towns... kinda Deadwood style working to eventually become legitmized and part of the "union". This of course would tie in with the crafting available... things like connecting to the railroad or something. All structures should be player crafted.
There would need to be a new leveling system as well... a new way to grow your character. People will get bored to tears of killing foxes, coyotes, buffalo and bears all day long. And I would guarantee that someone would get bent out of shape if you spent a good portion of your days in game gunning down mexicans, indians, and spaniards.

I'd move away from player created towns IMHO because I'd rather not have urban blight that was seen in SWG. You should be able to go into the wilderness and not be assualted by the massive intrusion of player created towns.

What I would do is have a very small npc towns or outposts and then have districts with housing lots in them that surround the town that would only extend a certian distant which would allow for large town or cities to spring up but only in a controlled fasion.

Players could then submit their own names to run as district leaders in these towns for each seperate district zone and then after they've won a district election they can go further and compete with other district leeaders in a second election to determin who can become the mayor of this town. Prior to this the game would just assign a MMO mayer until players start organizing themselves once game controlled elections come around every few months.

The reason why I would handle it this way would be because of the mistake that was SWG run created towns. I'd also like to split the power of mayors. People should interact and still deal with to different district leaders and players. They should not have their rule be absolute. I'd rather keep away from allowing one guild to run an entire town and if they do so it would only because the majority of players like their leadership.

P.S. The nature of the world would be a "time bubble/altered timeline." kind of like the Harry Tutrledove series of "What if" books. In this game players would determine the course of history and events in the MMO that would have grounding in a historical period to a degree but still allow for a altered reality and history created by player driven interactions in the game.

As far as leveling I'd would have it be mainly be story/mission driven with multiply large and looming story arcs that force you to make factional choices in the game and decisions. I agree that the grinding nature of most sandbox MMO's would not work well within this game. Thus a story driven leveling system is a good thing. Along side a genric mission based system that also allows you to do your own thing if you like. For example you can walk up to certian NPC's for quests like hunting down genric npc outlaws saving a ranchers daughter from outlaws, escorting wagon trains or cattle drives. For players who beome outlaws there should be NPC characters who give you genric outlaw misions like robbing banks/trains, stealing horses/cattle if you are a red pk player in a outlaw haven.

In fact there should be some genric PvP quest system along side the PvE one that hand out tons of XP but it would put other players against other players.

For example you take a mission from NPC who only gives out PvP missions in a small town to escort a cattle drive. from point A to point B. A red Pk player can then be given a quest in a outlaw haven to rustle up those cattle and drive off anyone that may try stop them if not kill them outright. Everyone gets your average PVE xp for turning in the quest no matter if you failed or not but the one who wins gets x3 times the xp.

I would also allow players to hunt animals for xp and mindlessly grind if they like. Though being invovled in a story line or pvp mission would still be more rewarding but I'd wouldn't take away the ability to mindlessly grind from people that just want to ignore the questing system. Also having a Sage of Ryzom style tool where players can add in their own pve style quests would be nice as well.

As for the racism and such that would be the only area where I would intervine to ensure that people are behaving well. You can gank each other to death but virtual racism is not a good selling point IMHO. It would just

Torak · July 2007

I think it would be a good idea. It might be more niche but it could still be successful.

The one hazard I see is that it is to close to the real world and some ethnic groups would be massively offended (and rightfully so) if you got task that involved the pointless killing of Indians for example. I think that is one of the main reasons you don't see this sort of thing. MMO Devs being the uncreative lot that they are would be hard pressed to actually come with something imaginitive that didn't involve the repetitive kill task.

There was a PC game a few years ago called "GUN" that was pretty good and showed that a western game could work and be fun and interesting but even it caught some flak from native Americans.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/gun/index.html?tag=result;title;4

The GUN world would be a good start in a game context though. There is a ton of great western literature and movies out there to draw from. Some of the best stories out there are "westerns".

(P.S. it would need to be skill based If nothing else, for the love of everything that taste like pizza, no more generic class systems)

You could sink a fairly indepth PvP system into it with Factions. There were tons of gangs, bandits and outlaw groups who would ride into a town and take control of it while they were there. That alone spurred many great movies like "The Quick and the Dead". http://www.amazon.com/Quick-Dead-Sharon-Stone/dp/0767817710 or a sherrifs "posse" hunting down a particular group or person. (anyone remember "Young Guns"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Guns )

You could have a lot of fun designing a game around this with the right people / team.

EDIT

And what about all of Clint Eastwoods old westerns and of course the immortal "John Wayne"????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good%2C_The_Bad%2C_and_The_Ugly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_wayne "I've had my back broke once, and my hip twice, and on my worst day I could beat the hell out of you." (The Cowboys)

Or what about the "Magnificent Seven" with Charles Bronson, Steve McQueen and Yul Brynnor and James Colburn?!?! Classic stuff there..........(lord, I'm showing my age lol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magnificent_Seven

Geez, you could make a great game outta this stuff.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by Torak
I think it would be a good idea. It might be more niche but it could still be successful.
The one hazard I see is that it is to close to the real world and some ethnic groups would be massively offended (and rightfully so) if you got task that involved the pointless killing of Indians for example. I think that is one of the main reasons you don't see this sort of thing. MMO Devs being the uncreative lot that they are would be hard pressed to actually come with something imaginitive that didn't involve the repetitive kill task.
There was a PC game a few years ago called "GUN" that was pretty good and showed that a western game could work and be fun and interesting but even it caught some flak from native Americans.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/gun/index.html?tag=result;title;4
The GUN world would be a good start in a game context though. There is a ton of great western literature and movies out there to draw from. Some of the best stories out there are "westerns".
(P.S. it would need to be skill based If nothing else, for the love of everything that taste like pizza, no more generic class systems)
You could sink a fairly indepth PvP system into it with Factions. There were tons of gangs, bandits and outlaw groups who would ride into a town and take control of it while they were there. That alone spurred many great movies like "The Quick and the Dead". http://www.amazon.com/Quick-Dead-Sharon-Stone/dp/0767817710 or a sherrifs "posse" hunting down a particular group or person. (anyone remember "Young Guns"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Guns )
You could have a lot of fun designing a game around this with the right people / team.

I agree you have to be careful and make sure you don't use cliched Hollywood sterotypes but it can be donw correctly by just using common sense. Not all settlers wanted to take land from Native Americans and not all Native Americans were living tipees and hell bent on killing white folk, etc.... Showing the many sides of humantiy and points of view is a challenge but it can be done correctly if you take the time to do your research and remove any bias current day politcal and cultural agendas that may hurt the creation of a MMO like this. If anything it would be a hell of a fun project to do and IMHO a hell of fun MMO to play.

Torak · July 2007

Originally posted by M1sf1t

Originally posted by Torak

I think it would be a good idea. It might be more niche but it could still be successful.

The one hazard I see is that it is to close to the real world and some ethnic groups would be massively offended (and rightfully so) if you got task that involved the pointless killing of Indians for example. I think that is one of the main reasons you don't see this sort of thing. MMO Devs being the uncreative lot that they are would be hard pressed to actually come with something imaginitive that didn't involve the repetitive kill task.

There was a PC game a few years ago called "GUN" that was pretty good and showed that a western game could work and be fun and interesting but even it caught some flak from native Americans.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/gun/index.html?tag=result;title;4

The GUN world would be a good start in a game context though. There is a ton of great western literature and movies out there to draw from. Some of the best stories out there are "westerns".

(P.S. it would need to be skill based If nothing else, for the love of everything that taste like pizza, no more generic class systems)

You could sink a fairly indepth PvP system into it with Factions. There were tons of gangs, bandits and outlaw groups who would ride into a town and take control of it while they were there. That alone spurred many great movies like "The Quick and the Dead". http://www.amazon.com/Quick-Dead-Sharon-Stone/dp/0767817710 or a sherrifs "posse" hunting down a particular group or person. (anyone remember "Young Guns"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Guns )

You could have a lot of fun designing a game around this with the right people / team.

I agree you have to be careful and make sure you don't use cliched Hollywood sterotypes but it can be donw correctly by just using common sense. Not all settlers wanted to take land from Native Americans and not all Native Americans were living tipees and hell bent on killing white folk, etc.... Showing the many sides of humantiy and points of view is a challenge but it can be done correctly if you take the time to do your research and remove any bias current day politcal and cultural agendas that may hurt the creation of a MMO like this. If anything it would be a hell of a fun project to do and IMHO a hell of fun MMO to play.

Almost all of the good western stories didn't even have the sterotype "cowboys vs Indians" theme in them lol...see my above links. There are tons more of them if you really start digging into the subject.

But thats were MMO designers would fail, they wouldn't be able to make anything but another "kill 10 whatever" grinder.

turnipz · July 2007

I dont think it would work personally, I mean its a nice concept but the concept revolves around action packed 1 shot your dead type combat in a real life environment. Which means it would have to be an mmofps, and even then what are you gonna kill? Random burglers who spawn all around the desert?

Torak · July 2007

Originally posted by turnipz

I dont think it would work personally, I mean its a nice concept but the concept revolves around action packed 1 shot your dead type combat in a real life environment. Which means it would have to be an mmofps, and even then what are you gonna kill? Random burglers who spawn all around the desert?

And thats why this genre is in the shape its in. No imagination and bottom of the barrel expectations. MMOs stink now because devs can get away with it and still collect their monthly fees. What would work, yet another generic fantasty grinder?

Keelmackay · July 2007

Originally posted by turnipz

I dont think it would work personally, I mean its a nice concept but the concept revolves around action packed 1 shot your dead type combat in a real life environment. Which means it would have to be an mmofps, and even then what are you gonna kill? Random burglers who spawn all around the desert?

Yeah, but any RPG with fairly recent weaponry has to work around the "one-shot death" problem. The resulting design compromises may produce a separation from reality that turns off some people, but not all of us. I just chuckle when my suit-coated hero in CoH pops to his feet after a point-blank shotgun blast to the chest. Realistic combat with modern weapons really isn't much fun in a genre that requires long-term survival of one character.

Angelfire · July 2007

Nah cause what you do is go for the spaghetti western angle .. where people get shot to crap and walk away. Saloon fights would be a complete blast. Would need a good physics engine definately.

spankybus · July 2007

This would be a great skill-based, sand-box style mmo. The west was a lot of open country with nothing but sporadic animals to kill....that part might be un-fun. But robbin' trains and stagecoaches, player-run towns with poker tourneys on the local tavern. THe reality of the West was rather Dull, TBH, so this might require just a bit of help to make it a fun game.

txrex · July 2007

Has great potiential.

I think the crafting could be great since many things were made by hand back then anyways. The modern weapon problems could be an issue but you would just have to make bullets not hurt as bad or harder to land. I mean how many old west games ever made actually made guns realistically deadly?

In the begining, for PvP you could just have a single draw. Some sort of mini game that’s impacted by your level…

One of my first games to play multiplayer online was the LucusArts FPS Outlaws and i have always wanted to find another game in the genre.

Torak · July 2007

Well the whole "shooting" thing is a game mechanic issue and really doesn't have anything to do with whether the genre would work or not. its not like there are no MMOs with guns in them.

What would really be needed is depth and creative gameplay. That is something that has NOT been tried in a long time in MMOs. Sure, if you just try to reskin WoW with cowboys, its not gonna work. But thats the problem with the entire genre, no one is thinking outside the box and everyone seems happy with that.

Personally I think that this type of game could have awesome potential. Unfortunately all we will get is a few more fantasy grinders this year.

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