Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sor
Originally posted by ifan2k
Originally posted by gnomexxx
Originally posted by ifan2k
<Mod edit>
I don't see how your immediate cynicism towards people living their lives the way they see fit is going to help anyone either.
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
So, You're saying that all Christians, Catholics etc etc are Fat, Child-Molesters? ________________ (to the OP - as i hate to double post) Congratulations on chosing to get baptised.
Tyi
_____________________ Played: Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sor Originally posted by ifan2k
Originally posted by gnomexxx
Originally posted by ifan2k
I don't see how having a fat, child-molesting priest dab a few drops of slightly salty water onto your forehead is going to do anything...
I don't see how your immediate cynicism towards people living their lives the way they see fit is going to help anyone either.
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
So, You're saying that all Christians, Catholics etc etc are Fat, Child-Molesters?
________________
(to the OP - as i hate to double post) Congratulations on chosing to get baptised.
Getting baptized later in life out of choice is cool...
Baptising babies before they are old enough to decide between the rational and the supernatural is somewhat akin to child abuse of a phsycological nature.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Man for you to know them all, you must be one popular guy!
Unless, you dont know all of them, and well. your generalising based upon accounts that get intentional media-hype. forgetting that Priests are in the minority of convicted paedophiles. Plus as Priests cannot be female (by defintion of the word) it puts them in a bigger minority (yes paedophiles can be female).
It's sad that in this day and age of supposed understanding and tolerance, people have to hide behind some hype-fear, or decide that they are going to generalise based on such a small figure. It's like saying "everyone who plays an MMORPG is a single male who's fat and lives with his mom", or for a better analogy read EggftEgg's post below. Kudos
*sigh*
Ok, sorry about the semi hi-jack.
Tyi
_____________________ Played: Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Man for you to know them all, you must be one popular guy!
Unless, you dont know all of them, and well. your generalising based upon accounts that get intentional media-hype. forgetting that Priests are in the minority of convicted paedophiles. Plus as Priests cannot be female (by defintion of the word) it puts them in a bigger minority (yes paedophiles can be female).
It's sad that in this day and age of supposed understanding and tolerance, people have to hide behind some hype-fear, or decide that they are going to generalise based on such a small figure. It's like saying "everyone who plays an MMORPG is a single male who's fat and lives with his mom"
*sigh*
Ok, sorry about the semi hi-jack.
Tyi
...except there actually are quite a lot of fat, single guys, living with their mom, playing mmorpgs. I'd say it was more like saying that everyone who plays violent video games is a psychopathic killer, based on the one or two high profile news stories.
Man for you to know them all, you must be one popular guy!
Unless, you dont know all of them, and well. your generalising based upon accounts that get intentional media-hype. forgetting that Priests are in the minority of convicted paedophiles. Plus as Priests cannot be female (by defintion of the word) it puts them in a bigger minority (yes paedophiles can be female).
It's sad that in this day and age of supposed understanding and tolerance, people have to hide behind some hype-fear, or decide that they are going to generalise based on such a small figure. It's like saying "everyone who plays an MMORPG is a single male who's fat and lives with his mom"
*sigh*
Ok, sorry about the semi hi-jack.
Tyi
...except there actually are quite a lot of fat, single guys, living with their mom, playing mmorpgs. I'd say it was more like saying that everyone who plays violent video games is a psychopathic killer, based on the one or two high profile news stories.
Yup, thats a far better analogy.
(I blame monday mornings)
_____________________ Played: Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
I don't see how having a fat, child-molesting priest dab a few drops of slightly salty water onto your forehead is going to do anything...
I don't see how your immediate cynicism towards people living their lives the way they see fit is going to help anyone either.
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sort of off base in your starting premise. And if you're comparing a Unitarian Church to a Christian church, then you will find very big differences.
Um.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian Notice the Christian cross on the right side of the page? Notice how it states that Unitarianism is a sect of the Christian faith?
Many Christians do not like the idea of Unitarianism being considered as a Christian sect, but to most people it is as it is still about belief in the Christian god and both testaments of the bible.
Well, OMG!!! If it's on Wikipedia it must be so. I mean, should we go tell the people who are Unitarians that they've got it completely wrong because Wikipedia has an entry saying so?
It's splitting hairs to argue about it, but like I said, comparing a Unitarian/Universalist Church to a Christian church is going to reveal some striking differences.
I don't see how having a fat, child-molesting priest dab a few drops of slightly salty water onto your forehead is going to do anything...
I don't see how your immediate cynicism towards people living their lives the way they see fit is going to help anyone either.
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sort of off base in your starting premise. And if you're comparing a Unitarian Church to a Christian church, then you will find very big differences.
Um.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian Notice the Christian cross on the right side of the page? Notice how it states that Unitarianism is a sect of the Christian faith?
Many Christians do not like the idea of Unitarianism being considered as a Christian sect, but to most people it is as it is still about belief in the Christian god and both testaments of the bible.
Well, OMG!!! If it's on Wikipedia it must be so. I mean, should we go tell the people who are Unitarians that they've got it completely wrong because Wikipedia has an entry saying so?
It's splitting hairs to argue about it, but like I said, comparing a Unitarian/Universalist Church to a Christian church is going to reveal some striking differences.
I wouldn't say the Unitarian Church I'm going to is very Christian in the late sense of the word. We talk about Christ but not about miracles and such. It's more about what he said and taught than about the magic stuff. The ritual of baptism is a means to express agreement with the teachings of Christ. I feel it's a way to show I respect the way he lived.
I like the Unitarian church because we're not hard pressed on what we have to believe. We're allowed to search and actually disagree with each other without feeling like we need to break off and form another group of followers. We talk about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all the other religions and we're allowed to learn from them.
Unitarian churches also don't teach you that the 'trinity' is the truth. I've always had a problem with that so I felt comfortable when I started going to this church. I feel like Jesus was a cool guy, very cool guy, but the son of God, not so much. I sometimes think that his story was cheapened by the hyping up of the things he did. I like to try to find the real story of Jesus. Just knowing a guy was able to do the things he did as a normal (not magical) guy is more than enough for me. I can't help but adore someone who is able to live that way with all the human faults we inherit.
I'm getting baptized tomorrow. And I'm nervous as heck. I wasn't going to say anything because I know how things are on these boards at times. But it was these boards that partially brought me to my decision. I've been contemplating it for some years now. Anyways, just thought I'd say thanks to the people who were patient with my questions and gave me a fair chance to wander around seeking my way.
It's great that you want to be baptized. I hope you understand that baptism isn't a requirement to be saved though. I suppose that's why I put it off for so long, myself. My dad, whom I was living with at the time, didn't make an effort to have me baptized either. I mean, what did I care about baptism when I was 14 years old? I think it wasn't until I was 19 or 20 that I finally became baptized.
I had a talk with some guy over the internet off and on for a couple of days about the importance of baptism, what it meant, what it symbolized, and if it was necessary for salvation. He believed it was originally, but I still do not believe that way. He still reminded me that I should be baptized because it's sort of an obligation. It's symbolic, but it is also a public profession of faith. Sometimes your testimony on how you became a Christian during your baptism can help others to become saved.
Me? I went to church as usual one day and found out that the new church was holding their first baptism ceremony in a week's time. I wanted to be baptized, but I wasn't sure if it would be practical for me to attend. I talked it over with the pastor, and it turned out that it was just across the street from where I lived - by a river. The church I attended was several miles from where I lived. So I thought that was cool. I went and got baptized and offered my testimony, reading off a piece of paper I had prepared because I'm not much of a public speaker. I was a bit nervous, but not a lot.
I think traditionally, you're supposed to be baptized in "living water" - water that is flowing instead of stagnant. Baptism is a Jewish ceremony that was performed long before Christ came to offer his public ministry and spread the Good News (God Spell = Good Story/News > Gospel). To participate in baptism is to participate in mikvah or an immersion for purposes of being 'ceremonially clean'. I think that mikvaot were also used to show a change in life style for the better. And without rereading my sources, that's as much as I remember about it. I don't know how much you know about it, but understanding the cultural context of baptism helps you to see how appropriate it is to perform when one first becomes a Christian.
Being baptized in water does not guarantee you the Holy Spirit. Baptism of water and baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different things of course. Men baptize with water; Yeshu/Yeshua (Christ) baptizes with the Holy Spirit or the Ruach ha'Kodesh, and it is the Holy Spirit that resurrects us in the end (as far as I remember).
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
First of all, most false information that is entered into wikipedia is spotted by many and is quickly corrected. Second of all, Unitarianism sounds pretty good according to what the OP has said about it, but I still don;t see how it is outside of the Christian faith.
You people believe in the Abrahamic god, do you not? If you celebrate Xmas and easter and baptise in order to 'save' people from sin then that sounds pretty Christian to me.
"But crazy atheist guy" says you "the Jews believe in the same god, but they aren;t Christian". Sure, but they don't believe in the new testament and they don't celebrate the Christian holidays. there's enough difference there to justify the Jews being outside of Christianity, but Unitarianism isn't different enough to be considered non-Christian
I don't see how having a fat, child-molesting priest dab a few drops of slightly salty water onto your forehead is going to do anything...
I don't see how your immediate cynicism towards people living their lives the way they see fit is going to help anyone either.
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sort of off base in your starting premise. And if you're comparing a Unitarian Church to a Christian church, then you will find very big differences.
Um.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian Notice the Christian cross on the right side of the page? Notice how it states that Unitarianism is a sect of the Christian faith?
Many Christians do not like the idea of Unitarianism being considered as a Christian sect, but to most people it is as it is still about belief in the Christian god and both testaments of the bible.
Well, OMG!!! If it's on Wikipedia it must be so. I mean, should we go tell the people who are Unitarians that they've got it completely wrong because Wikipedia has an entry saying so?
It's splitting hairs to argue about it, but like I said, comparing a Unitarian/Universalist Church to a Christian church is going to reveal some striking differences.
I wouldn't say the Unitarian Church I'm going to is very Christian in the late sense of the word. We talk about Christ but not about miracles and such. It's more about what he said and taught than about the magic stuff. The ritual of baptism is a means to express agreement with the teachings of Christ. I feel it's a way to show I respect the way he lived.
I like the Unitarian church because we're not hard pressed on what we have to believe. We're allowed to search and actually disagree with each other without feeling like we need to break off and form another group of followers. We talk about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all the other religions and we're allowed to learn from them.
Unitarian churches also don't teach you that the 'trinity' is the truth. I've always had a problem with that so I felt comfortable when I started going to this church. I feel like Jesus was a cool guy, very cool guy, but the son of God, not so much. I sometimes think that his story was cheapened by the hyping up of the things he did. I like to try to find the real story of Jesus. Just knowing a guy was able to do the things he did as a normal (not magical) guy is more than enough for me. I can't help but adore someone who is able to live that way with all the human faults we inherit.
As long as you believe the Gospel, then you are a saved believer (ie. Christian or Believing Jew). You can be completely misguided on every other point and know almost absolutely nothing about God, but if you believe in the Gospel, you are saved. It's that easy, but of course few people ever accept this teaching and believe, so is it really easy?
Personally, I believe that God wants nothing to do with being associated with other gods. And unless you want to disregard the blatant testimony of the New Testament documents, you'd probably believe in Christ as the Son of God. I'm fairly sure that you can understand how Christ is the Son of God from the Old Testament, but you have to dig a little deeper; in other words, the Old Testament doesn't spoon-feed it to you as much as the New does.
One interesting thing to consider is that Jews believed in the Messiah (Christ) before the New Testament documents were written. Why did they believe in a Messiah? Well, they were able to find prophecies of the Messiah interwoven within the texts of the Old Testament. Try searching for prophecies concerning the Messiah in the Old Testament and that may give you some clue as to how much time you may have to spend in finding out what the Old Testament has to say about Christ as the Son of God. I'm not just talking about reading some online articles about how David prophesied through some of the psalms about the Messiah or the Meshiach. I'm talking about also asking yourself how his psalms are prophetic? Why do some people believe that they are prophetic? Why did the apostles believe that they were prophetic?
Why were some Jews disheartened when their Messiah suffered and died? Did they not expect this from the prophets? Were they not informed (probably the case)? Christ explained how he had to suffer and die beforehand. And those Jews around the time of Christ who didn't know about Jesus (Yeshua) or that he was the Messiah must've thought that the prophecy of Genesis 49:10 came from a false prophet when the sceptre did depart from Judah at the coming of Roman rule. Before that time, even the Babylonians at least allowed Judah to have a 'puppet' Jewish king to rule over them. But with the coming of Roman rule and the advent of the Messiah (as Jesus claimed to be), Judah was no longer ruled by Jews. The sceptre departed from Judah. The Messiah had come. The Jews did not see. That is one fulfilled prophecy of the Messiah.
Of course it could be argued that the sceptre never departed from Judah because a gentile sceptre was over Judah, but I doubt that within the context of Genesis 49:8 that it was talking about a gentile sceptre. Judah's brothers are portrayed as bowing down to Judah - not to some gentile or foreign people. Who really has the sceptre here?
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Adreal is right and well put. Very thought provoking questions asked too. To be considered a believer/Christian, you'd have to believe Jesus was the son of God else the Bible is meaningless:
"The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God." - Mark 1:1
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." - John 20:31
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God'sone and onlySon." - John 3:18
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
Well considering there is no such thing as an actual atheist, he doesn't have much to worry about.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
Depends on whether or not it was authentic repentance... just saying "I'm sorry" won't get a person anywhere with God. On the other hand, why would the atheist (philanthropist or not) want anything from a God he doesn't believe in anyway?
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
Well considering there is no such thing as an actual atheist, he doesn't have much to worry about.
I won't get in to a long discussion in this thread but I have to say... most people who believe that statement are theists and incorrectly define atheism. More enlightened theists, however, do recognise a broader definition of the word atheist.
PS Walakea, are you a programmer? I'm cracking up over you saying "goto" instead of "go to".
I won't get in to a long discussion in this thread but I have to say... most people who believe that statement are theists and incorrectly define atheism. More enlightened theists, however, do recognise a broader definition of the word atheist.
PS Walakea, are you a programmer? I'm cracking up over you saying "goto" instead of "go to".
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
I believe the Son of God to be God. This may seem to be blasphemous to a Muslim or unbelieving Jew, but it is not blasphemous to believe that God is God. The concept of the Trinity is not only seen in the New Testament; we Christians generally just give that aspect of God the particular name of Trinity to denote that quality of God's person. But in reality, the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Old Testament. The Son, I think, it is harder to find mention of him than it is of the Holy Spirit or of the Father I believe. In Genesis there also appears to be evidence of at least a God who talks to himself. How far you want to go with that info is up to you, but I digress.
What human being deserves to live in eternal bliss? If we are God's creation, he can do whatever he wants with us. As Christ illustrated once: if God wishes to hire two workers and he pays one a standard wage for working a full day and the other a standard wage for working half a day, is he being unfair? No, a standard wage is a standard wage. What does it matter if he wishes to be fair to someone and generous to another? Saving a person after a horrible life of sin and rebellion against God and his creation simply shows his mercy. If it was justice or revenge against his people and the rest of the world which God wanted, then God would probably not have sent the Messiah - himself in the flesh to save us.
The sacrificial ceremonies pointed toward the coming sacrifice of the Messiah. And if a blameless sacrifice was needed to wash away the sins of the offender, then Christ was blameless. And if Christ was merely a man, then he was an improper sacrifice and would not be able to save us. But if he was God, then he is blameless and free from sin. If one sinned, it could only be made right by the shedding of blood which represents life and is life for all sentient creatures. Since no one leading a sinful life can live in the presence of a sinless God, it required the destruction of our lives (the shedding of the offenders' blood) or the shedding of God's blood. If our blood was shed - our life was destroyed - then we obviously wouldn't be saved, but the price of sin would be paid. But God paid for us by the shedding of his blood so that we could still live while he, being omnipotent, raised himself from the dead. Now it only requires faith.
In Old Testament times it still required faith. To paraphrase somewhat the words of Scripture - Abraham was counted righteous in God's eyes because he believed. And only the righteous may live eternally with God.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
As an Atheist, I found the Unitarian's to be the only tolerable religion to spin off from Christianity. Founded in Transylvannia, how cool is that? Oh, and they are generally the greatest bunch of Atheists and Agnostics you'll ever meet. The last time I went to their church they were teaching from Native American stories and religion. Pretty cool. More like a study group for philosophy than religion. A good read about this subject is "Out of the Flames", by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone.
Not sure why they are bothering with a baptism at this Unitarian church, but hey, if it makes you feel better - Cool.
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
Well considering there is no such thing as an actual atheist, he doesn't have much to worry about.
Nice to meet you, I go by the name of Mal here. Now you've met one.
I'm getting baptized tomorrow. And I'm nervous as heck. I wasn't going to say anything because I know how things are on these boards at times. But it was these boards that partially brought me to my decision. I've been contemplating it for some years now. Anyways, just thought I'd say thanks to the people who were patient with my questions and gave me a fair chance to wander around seeking my way.
Just do a cannonball instead of letting the Priest submerge you.
Keep in mind, there is no such thing as "holy" water. Water is just water. It's the Priest that is the holy one, the one that counts.
Now I believe being Baptized does nothing whatever ever other than get you a little wet, but it's you're choice after all. I have no mean feelings towards anyway who wants to do it, I just dont see the point in it, is all.
Comments
So, You're saying that all Christians, Catholics etc etc are Fat, Child-Molesters?
________________
(to the OP - as i hate to double post) Congratulations on chosing to get baptised.
Tyi
_____________________
Played:
Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Awaiting: FFXIV and SW:TOR
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
So, You're saying that all Christians, Catholics etc etc are Fat, Child-Molesters?
________________
(to the OP - as i hate to double post) Congratulations on chosing to get baptised.
Tyi
No, just the priests.
Getting baptized later in life out of choice is cool...
Baptising babies before they are old enough to decide between the rational and the supernatural is somewhat akin to child abuse of a phsycological nature.
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Glad we cleared that up.
Man for you to know them all, you must be one popular guy!
Unless, you dont know all of them, and well. your generalising based upon accounts that get intentional media-hype. forgetting that Priests are in the minority of convicted paedophiles. Plus as Priests cannot be female (by defintion of the word) it puts them in a bigger minority (yes paedophiles can be female).
It's sad that in this day and age of supposed understanding and tolerance, people have to hide behind some hype-fear, or decide that they are going to generalise based on such a small figure. It's like saying "everyone who plays an MMORPG is a single male who's fat and lives with his mom", or for a better analogy read EggftEgg's post below. Kudos
*sigh*
Ok, sorry about the semi hi-jack.
Tyi
_____________________
Played:
Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Awaiting: FFXIV and SW:TOR
Man for you to know them all, you must be one popular guy!
Unless, you dont know all of them, and well. your generalising based upon accounts that get intentional media-hype. forgetting that Priests are in the minority of convicted paedophiles. Plus as Priests cannot be female (by defintion of the word) it puts them in a bigger minority (yes paedophiles can be female).
It's sad that in this day and age of supposed understanding and tolerance, people have to hide behind some hype-fear, or decide that they are going to generalise based on such a small figure. It's like saying "everyone who plays an MMORPG is a single male who's fat and lives with his mom"
*sigh*
Ok, sorry about the semi hi-jack.
Tyi
...except there actually are quite a lot of fat, single guys, living with their mom, playing mmorpgs. I'd say it was more like saying that everyone who plays violent video games is a psychopathic killer, based on the one or two high profile news stories.
Man for you to know them all, you must be one popular guy!
Unless, you dont know all of them, and well. your generalising based upon accounts that get intentional media-hype. forgetting that Priests are in the minority of convicted paedophiles. Plus as Priests cannot be female (by defintion of the word) it puts them in a bigger minority (yes paedophiles can be female).
It's sad that in this day and age of supposed understanding and tolerance, people have to hide behind some hype-fear, or decide that they are going to generalise based on such a small figure. It's like saying "everyone who plays an MMORPG is a single male who's fat and lives with his mom"
*sigh*
Ok, sorry about the semi hi-jack.
Tyi
...except there actually are quite a lot of fat, single guys, living with their mom, playing mmorpgs. I'd say it was more like saying that everyone who plays violent video games is a psychopathic killer, based on the one or two high profile news stories.
Yup, thats a far better analogy.
(I blame monday mornings)
_____________________
Played:
Aion, All Points Bulletin, ArchLord, Champions Online, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest II, Fallen Earth, Fantasy Earth Zero, Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall, Lineage 2, Lord of the Rings Online, Metin 2, MU Online, RF Online, Ryzom, Silkroad Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Chronicles of Spellborn and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Awaiting: FFXIV and SW:TOR
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sort of off base in your starting premise. And if you're comparing a Unitarian Church to a Christian church, then you will find very big differences.
Um.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian Notice the Christian cross on the right side of the page? Notice how it states that Unitarianism is a sect of the Christian faith?
Many Christians do not like the idea of Unitarianism being considered as a Christian sect, but to most people it is as it is still about belief in the Christian god and both testaments of the bible.
Well, OMG!!! If it's on Wikipedia it must be so. I mean, should we go tell the people who are Unitarians that they've got it completely wrong because Wikipedia has an entry saying so?It's splitting hairs to argue about it, but like I said, comparing a Unitarian/Universalist Church to a Christian church is going to reveal some striking differences.
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I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sort of off base in your starting premise. And if you're comparing a Unitarian Church to a Christian church, then you will find very big differences.
Um.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian Notice the Christian cross on the right side of the page? Notice how it states that Unitarianism is a sect of the Christian faith?
Many Christians do not like the idea of Unitarianism being considered as a Christian sect, but to most people it is as it is still about belief in the Christian god and both testaments of the bible.
Well, OMG!!! If it's on Wikipedia it must be so. I mean, should we go tell the people who are Unitarians that they've got it completely wrong because Wikipedia has an entry saying so?It's splitting hairs to argue about it, but like I said, comparing a Unitarian/Universalist Church to a Christian church is going to reveal some striking differences.
I wouldn't say the Unitarian Church I'm going to is very Christian in the late sense of the word. We talk about Christ but not about miracles and such. It's more about what he said and taught than about the magic stuff. The ritual of baptism is a means to express agreement with the teachings of Christ. I feel it's a way to show I respect the way he lived.I like the Unitarian church because we're not hard pressed on what we have to believe. We're allowed to search and actually disagree with each other without feeling like we need to break off and form another group of followers. We talk about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all the other religions and we're allowed to learn from them.
Unitarian churches also don't teach you that the 'trinity' is the truth. I've always had a problem with that so I felt comfortable when I started going to this church. I feel like Jesus was a cool guy, very cool guy, but the son of God, not so much. I sometimes think that his story was cheapened by the hyping up of the things he did. I like to try to find the real story of Jesus. Just knowing a guy was able to do the things he did as a normal (not magical) guy is more than enough for me. I can't help but adore someone who is able to live that way with all the human faults we inherit.
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</OBAMA>
I had a talk with some guy over the internet off and on for a couple of days about the importance of baptism, what it meant, what it symbolized, and if it was necessary for salvation. He believed it was originally, but I still do not believe that way. He still reminded me that I should be baptized because it's sort of an obligation. It's symbolic, but it is also a public profession of faith. Sometimes your testimony on how you became a Christian during your baptism can help others to become saved.
Me? I went to church as usual one day and found out that the new church was holding their first baptism ceremony in a week's time. I wanted to be baptized, but I wasn't sure if it would be practical for me to attend. I talked it over with the pastor, and it turned out that it was just across the street from where I lived - by a river. The church I attended was several miles from where I lived. So I thought that was cool. I went and got baptized and offered my testimony, reading off a piece of paper I had prepared because I'm not much of a public speaker. I was a bit nervous, but not a lot.
I think traditionally, you're supposed to be baptized in "living water" - water that is flowing instead of stagnant. Baptism is a Jewish ceremony that was performed long before Christ came to offer his public ministry and spread the Good News (God Spell = Good Story/News > Gospel). To participate in baptism is to participate in mikvah or an immersion for purposes of being 'ceremonially clean'. I think that mikvaot were also used to show a change in life style for the better. And without rereading my sources, that's as much as I remember about it. I don't know how much you know about it, but understanding the cultural context of baptism helps you to see how appropriate it is to perform when one first becomes a Christian.
Being baptized in water does not guarantee you the Holy Spirit. Baptism of water and baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different things of course. Men baptize with water; Yeshu/Yeshua (Christ) baptizes with the Holy Spirit or the Ruach ha'Kodesh, and it is the Holy Spirit that resurrects us in the end (as far as I remember).
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
First of all, most false information that is entered into wikipedia is spotted by many and is quickly corrected. Second of all, Unitarianism sounds pretty good according to what the OP has said about it, but I still don;t see how it is outside of the Christian faith.
You people believe in the Abrahamic god, do you not? If you celebrate Xmas and easter and baptise in order to 'save' people from sin then that sounds pretty Christian to me.
"But crazy atheist guy" says you "the Jews believe in the same god, but they aren;t Christian". Sure, but they don't believe in the new testament and they don't celebrate the Christian holidays. there's enough difference there to justify the Jews being outside of Christianity, but Unitarianism isn't different enough to be considered non-Christian
I assume you're referring to Catholic's with that comment. Why don't you go back and read what the OP wrote. He said he was having it done at a Unitarian church.
Sorry, but it's all the same to me. Each sect of christianity may have slightly different rules and slightly different reputations, but these minute differences are of no consequence.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call Unitarian's a Christian sect, so you're sort of off base in your starting premise. And if you're comparing a Unitarian Church to a Christian church, then you will find very big differences.
Um.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian Notice the Christian cross on the right side of the page? Notice how it states that Unitarianism is a sect of the Christian faith?
Many Christians do not like the idea of Unitarianism being considered as a Christian sect, but to most people it is as it is still about belief in the Christian god and both testaments of the bible.
Well, OMG!!! If it's on Wikipedia it must be so. I mean, should we go tell the people who are Unitarians that they've got it completely wrong because Wikipedia has an entry saying so?It's splitting hairs to argue about it, but like I said, comparing a Unitarian/Universalist Church to a Christian church is going to reveal some striking differences.
I wouldn't say the Unitarian Church I'm going to is very Christian in the late sense of the word. We talk about Christ but not about miracles and such. It's more about what he said and taught than about the magic stuff. The ritual of baptism is a means to express agreement with the teachings of Christ. I feel it's a way to show I respect the way he lived.I like the Unitarian church because we're not hard pressed on what we have to believe. We're allowed to search and actually disagree with each other without feeling like we need to break off and form another group of followers. We talk about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all the other religions and we're allowed to learn from them.
Unitarian churches also don't teach you that the 'trinity' is the truth. I've always had a problem with that so I felt comfortable when I started going to this church. I feel like Jesus was a cool guy, very cool guy, but the son of God, not so much. I sometimes think that his story was cheapened by the hyping up of the things he did. I like to try to find the real story of Jesus. Just knowing a guy was able to do the things he did as a normal (not magical) guy is more than enough for me. I can't help but adore someone who is able to live that way with all the human faults we inherit.
As long as you believe the Gospel, then you are a saved believer (ie. Christian or Believing Jew). You can be completely misguided on every other point and know almost absolutely nothing about God, but if you believe in the Gospel, you are saved. It's that easy, but of course few people ever accept this teaching and believe, so is it really easy?Personally, I believe that God wants nothing to do with being associated with other gods. And unless you want to disregard the blatant testimony of the New Testament documents, you'd probably believe in Christ as the Son of God.
I'm fairly sure that you can understand how Christ is the Son of God from the Old Testament, but you have to dig a little deeper; in other words, the Old Testament doesn't spoon-feed it to you as much as the New does.
One interesting thing to consider is that Jews believed in the Messiah (Christ) before the New Testament documents were written. Why did they believe in a Messiah? Well, they were able to find prophecies of the Messiah interwoven within the texts of the Old Testament. Try searching for prophecies concerning the Messiah in the Old Testament and that may give you some clue as to how much time you may have to spend in finding out what the Old Testament has to say about Christ as the Son of God. I'm not just talking about reading some online articles about how David prophesied through some of the psalms about the Messiah or the Meshiach. I'm talking about also asking yourself how his psalms are prophetic? Why do some people believe that they are prophetic? Why did the apostles believe that they were prophetic?
Why were some Jews disheartened when their Messiah suffered and died? Did they not expect this from the prophets? Were they not informed (probably the case)? Christ explained how he had to suffer and die beforehand. And those Jews around the time of Christ who didn't know about Jesus (Yeshua) or that he was the Messiah must've thought that the prophecy of Genesis 49:10 came from a false prophet when the sceptre did depart from Judah at the coming of Roman rule. Before that time, even the Babylonians at least allowed Judah to have a 'puppet' Jewish king to rule over them. But with the coming of Roman rule and the advent of the Messiah (as Jesus claimed to be), Judah was no longer ruled by Jews. The sceptre departed from Judah. The Messiah had come. The Jews did not see. That is one fulfilled prophecy of the Messiah.
Of course it could be argued that the sceptre never departed from Judah because a gentile sceptre was over Judah, but I doubt that within the context of Genesis 49:8 that it was talking about a gentile sceptre. Judah's brothers are portrayed as bowing down to Judah - not to some gentile or foreign people. Who really has the sceptre here?
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Adreal is right and well put. Very thought provoking questions asked too. To be considered a believer/Christian, you'd have to believe Jesus was the son of God else the Bible is meaningless:
"The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God." - Mark 1:1
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." - John 20:31
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." - John 3:18
There's much more of course, but hope this helps.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/
So a rapist who believes in god and christ and repents for his sins the day before dying gets to goto a blissful afterlife whilst an atheist philanthropist will goto the underworld despite saving hundreds of lives. Great religion you guys got
Well considering there is no such thing as an actual atheist, he doesn't have much to worry about.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Depends on whether or not it was authentic repentance... just saying "I'm sorry" won't get a person anywhere with God. On the other hand, why would the atheist (philanthropist or not) want anything from a God he doesn't believe in anyway?
I won't get in to a long discussion in this thread but I have to say... most people who believe that statement are theists and incorrectly define atheism. More enlightened theists, however, do recognise a broader definition of the word atheist.Well considering there is no such thing as an actual atheist, he doesn't have much to worry about.
PS Walakea, are you a programmer? I'm cracking up over you saying "goto" instead of "go to".
It's not my fault the space bar hates me. hehe.
What human being deserves to live in eternal bliss? If we are God's creation, he can do whatever he wants with us. As Christ illustrated once: if God wishes to hire two workers and he pays one a standard wage for working a full day and the other a standard wage for working half a day, is he being unfair? No, a standard wage is a standard wage. What does it matter if he wishes to be fair to someone and generous to another? Saving a person after a horrible life of sin and rebellion against God and his creation simply shows his mercy. If it was justice or revenge against his people and the rest of the world which God wanted, then God would probably not have sent the Messiah - himself in the flesh to save us.
The sacrificial ceremonies pointed toward the coming sacrifice of the Messiah. And if a blameless sacrifice was needed to wash away the sins of the offender, then Christ was blameless. And if Christ was merely a man, then he was an improper sacrifice and would not be able to save us. But if he was God, then he is blameless and free from sin. If one sinned, it could only be made right by the shedding of blood which represents life and is life for all sentient creatures. Since no one leading a sinful life can live in the presence of a sinless God, it required the destruction of our lives (the shedding of the offenders' blood) or the shedding of God's blood. If our blood was shed - our life was destroyed - then we obviously wouldn't be saved, but the price of sin would be paid. But God paid for us by the shedding of his blood so that we could still live while he, being omnipotent, raised himself from the dead. Now it only requires faith.
In Old Testament times it still required faith. To paraphrase somewhat the words of Scripture - Abraham was counted righteous in God's eyes because he believed. And only the righteous may live eternally with God.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
As an Atheist, I found the Unitarian's to be the only tolerable religion to spin off from Christianity. Founded in Transylvannia, how cool is that? Oh, and they are generally the greatest bunch of Atheists and Agnostics you'll ever meet. The last time I went to their church they were teaching from Native American stories and religion. Pretty cool. More like a study group for philosophy than religion. A good read about this subject is "Out of the Flames", by Lawrence and Nancy Goldstone.
Not sure why they are bothering with a baptism at this Unitarian church, but hey, if it makes you feel better - Cool.
- Mal
Nice to meet you, I go by the name of Mal here. Now you've met one.Well considering there is no such thing as an actual atheist, he doesn't have much to worry about.
- Mal
Just do a cannonball instead of letting the Priest submerge you.
Keep in mind, there is no such thing as "holy" water. Water is just water. It's the Priest that is the holy one, the one that counts.
Now I believe being Baptized does nothing whatever ever other than get you a little wet, but it's you're choice after all. I have no mean feelings towards anyway who wants to do it, I just dont see the point in it, is all.