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One of the biggest problems in MMO's: The Clonish Item Looting
fcwedd
Member UncommonPosts: 196
I've beaten up the following games: Diablo II, Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided, EverQuest II, World of Warcraft, and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. I must say, after delving into the end-game for each of these entities, Diablo II (pre-expansion) & Star Wars Galaxies (pre-nge) had the best item loot system due to their random generated statistics. I remember my collection of rare gothic bows in Diablo II. Although the bows were of the same type and tier, they were worlds apart; some hit harder, fired faster, weighed less, and contained some type of bonus ability or proc. Yes, the item appearances were limited, but the random generated stats gave them a unique & personal aura.
For those that are not familiar with this type of looting system, allow me to explain! When you defeat your foe, he or she has the chance of dropping an item. When you pickup that item, the stats are randomly rolled based on the systems percentages per item. Suppose you find a dagger off one of the specter chieftains in Age of Conan. That dagger could have a greater chance of rolling a speed bonus as opposed to a dmg or proc bonus. However, it's still possible to get that dream dagger with high speed, dmg, and proc. It would be like winning the item lottery. Thats what was so fun about Diablo II & Star Wars Galaxies. You knew that what you had was one of a kind. A system like this makes any grind much less arduous due to the excitement of a rare item drop.
The following picture is to show how one type of item can have different stats, thus, rendering that item more fun and unique:
In EverQuest II,World of Warcraft, and Vanguard, everyone looked exactly the same. Everyone was decked out in quested soulbound items. Those who didn't have the time to complete the grouped quests or stockpile “dkp” wore identical crafted gear such as ebon & xegonite. Crafted gear also had set stats. In the early EverQuest II days, you knew this person was wielding the Screaming Mace or was wearing the Legendary Journeyman's Boots. As if it wasn't bad enough that everyone looked alike, they had the exact same gear. This was a major turnoff. World of Warcraft and Vanguard share the same clonish characteristics.
Simply adding in more gear will not help. There will always be some quested bow that is better for a ranger, thus, every ranger will work towards obtaining that bow.
The following are screenshots that show multiples of the same item on the npc brokers:
Comments
I've always agreed with this, AC also had a random loot generator and it made finding loot more interesting. Unfortunatly they didnt have a action house back then. You had to catch the item in the vendor at just the right time.
I agree wholeheartedly, this was exactly what turned me off of EQII and kept me from even playing WoW. At least in SWG, even the crafted items could vary in stats, although pre-CU the fact that composite armor was the be all end all of armors was annoying.
When I play an MMO, I dont have to be the most powerful of whatever class I play, I just like to be able to do what needs to be done, and look unique while doing it.
Sorry, but I disagree. It's hard enough in most games to scrimp and save for the gear you need - or take the time to craft it - or take the time/chance to raid for it. But then you add in variable stats? That means it would take more time to find the specific weapon you needed in a store, that means your crafted item that you spent lots of time/money on may turn out to suck, that adds even more chance to a RB situation (on top of the chance that he may not even drop a weapon!) No thanks. I know I'd just end up with some crappy, bottom-of-the-line staff that had + physical damage on it (when I was playing a caster.)
I agree that it would be nice for people to look different and not all to have the same gear. However, I don't see how your suggestion would help.
The best way for a game to allow customization in armor/weapons would be to have base armor/weapons and have the players add the stats through questing, crafting or raiding. So you'd have your choice of many different looks and styles of armor in the game, some harder to get than others, but all with very basic stats. Then, the player would add the desired stats to it. For instance in crafting, you could have a 'recipe' for a magic spell that would add a certain percentage of critical hit bonus to your weapon. You would have to collect ingredients for this spell. Perhaps for more advanced type bonuses, you may have to kill a raidboss to get a certain drop that would allow you to enhance your weapon. Rather than epic bosses dropping the best weapons/armor in the game, they could drop items that would allow you to enchant your weapons/armor with the best stats. In return for finishing a quest successfully, an NPC could offer to 'bless' your armor with your choice of bonus to your weapon (limited choice, of course.) These quests could be repeatable if you decide to get new gear. Items dropped from RBs might be recoverable from the gear with a certain amount of effort. That way you're not stuck with one piece of armor if you get the exact bonuses you want but later get sick of the look.
However, I know of no game that really has this system implemented. Lineage II sort of implemented something like this with the last update - but it is limited (weapons only) and doesn't allow you to really use whatever weapons you want based on looks.
I would love to play a game where I could get the stats I wanted. Normally, I hate crafting, but I think this would make it more fun for me. It certainly would be a lot more fun than having 15 Sword of Dooms sitting in my inventory and having to read all the stats and figure out which is the best one and which ones belong in the trash.
Good post! However, if one was able to choose their own stats, we would still end up with the same old cookie cutter weapons; everyone would go for more damage and speed. Also, I don't think every item should be roll generated. I just think having items such as these adds more flare to the game. As far as crafting, Star Wars Galaxies wins hands down. Your damage output etc derives from the selected resources used to craft that weapon. Each minable resource had so many different variables that played imoprtant rolls in crafting. You could really tell the good crafters from the novice. It was awesome.
These are competing design theories. Each has its merits. I think most MMO designers opt for fixed statistics because it's easier for them to balance the game.
Personally, I prefer the Diablo-esque style of random stat generation. I am a loot whore...I don't care about how it looks, I don't care about how efficient it is, I only care about having as much of the shiny pixels spill out from the guts of a mob I've just killed as possible. The more the better, and the more varied they are the better.
I disagree.
I think one of the good things about WoW was that you knew what items to expect, and it gave you a feeling of having a realistic goal to achieve.
I also prefer the diablo style loot generation with slightly randomized stats and whatnot. AC did this perfectly, not one piece of armor would be the same.
There are other ways to give people this feeling, like through trophy items, titles, skills, or quests.
I started with AC and beating a very special boss not only gave you experience and what not for the quest, but also a title. Sometimes you would even get a great item and display it at your house.
Sets shouldn't be required for this feeling, and to be honest, all they do is make everyone clones, as the topic indicates. To me, that gives even less desire to get the pieces.
To each his own I suppose.
they do it to save time and money but tbh everyone notices it and its really dodgy
I agree with the OP. Dark age of camelot had a version of this, they called the items ROG (random object generated). The majority of the ROG stuff was actually kinda crap compared to the best static named loot. But once in awhile you would run across something that was so insanely perfect for your toon it would make you cry. Like a gem with 25 dexterity and +10 dex cap for my runemaster. Something that couldnt be crafted, and no static loot could match. It just made things alot more interesting IMO. Putting together a template of gear in DAOC was more of an art than a science. So much more fun than the newest batch of games. I hope Mythic puts random generated items into Warhammer.
I couldn't agree more, and I've posted here about this same topic myself. In fact in Asheron's Call 1 you would come back from a few hours hunting loaded down with all kinds of random generated lewt. Some of it you would sell to NPC vendors (which as mentioned, other players would then have a crack at very cheap), some you would 'salvage' for raw materials, and if you were lucky - there would also be something to go into your own horde or worth trying to sell on the IGN forums (or in later years, the Marketplace). It was a helluva lot of fun, and it made the grind bearable.
I think most developers are afraid of their economies getting out of control with random generated loot, and of course there's crafted and quest loot problems to consider as well. But all these obstacles can be overcome if you just do things like include drops which crafters can use themselves (for example rare items which crafters can use to boost stats even further), and by making quest loot items truly unique in some way. This all does let a games economy run wild, but then barter just takes over in many aspects instead of gold. And anything's better than having a 'planned economy'. Think about it, how many people would really have fun living in North Korea?
Another huge factor in my mind - that is related to having fun loot - is having many different damage and protection types. Something you never see in MMORPG's anymore. It was a real challenge to collect different armor sets and weapons for use against various mob types in AC1 - and then of course it required a lot of thought to put together a good 'General Purpose' set for PvP etc. too. This was all something fun to do other than simply grind all day. But upon reflection, I suppose anything that might actually require "thought" is considered a bad design choice these days.
There are other ways to give people this feeling, like through trophy items, titles, skills, or quests.
I started with AC and beating a very special boss not only gave you experience and what not for the quest, but also a title. Sometimes you would even get a great item and display it at your house.
Sets shouldn't be required for this feeling, and to be honest, all they do is make everyone clones, as the topic indicates. To me, that gives even less desire to get the pieces.
To each his own I suppose.
Oh, no. I don't mean sets.Tier sets were horrible in my opinion.
I just mean that you knew what to expect loot wise.
That's just my opinion on one of the good things in WoW.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not a WoW fanboy, I used to play but really dislike the game now, but I have to admit there are things that they did well. In my opinion, that was one of the really good things.
There was an optimal piece for a slot, yes, but you didn't always have access to it.
I liked mixing and matching gear around what was available to me.
I hated that they made multiple tier sets for the different specs of classes.
It took away like 80% of the mixing and matching.
In AC I would do loot runs though the dire lands, go out for an hour or two fill up the back packs and come back home to sell some of the crap for M notes or keep some of the good stuff. Every once in awhile you could find a great item to tinker up. I loved this aspect of the game. There was some good static loot that you could get, but it was great to be able to go out and find your own gear which might be superior. Fun stuff.
It's simple, balance and time taken to create an item generator that will not push out the random glitched lowbie item that has insane stats.
Slotting items seems to be the best method of this but even then balancing issues come about.
It comes down to time and want of the devs to do this.
People like simple games, this has been proven time and time again.
Not necessarily. The weapons wouldn't be exactly cookie cutter because there would be different amounts of ++ you could add to it, different negatives to balance out the bonuses, different types of bonuses (not just +STR). For instance, one healer might choose a staff and enhance it with +15 casting speed, +150 mana while another healer might choose a (completely different) staff with +25 casting speed, +mp cost decrease when using "good" spells. It would be up to the devs to provide many different types of enhancements (+against undead, +% chance instant kill, +running speed, +% chance stun, etc.)
Even in L2, which everybody claims is the ultimate "cookie cutter" game, there is variety in the gear that each player wears. Yes, there are standards of what's considered "best" but everyone puts their own spin on it. If you consider tattoos, weapon SAs, set bonuses, augmentations, etc. you would find more variation than clones. Especially in versatile classes like the BD.
Oh, and while I've never played SWG, you make its crafting system sound more like a chore than fun. From your brief description, I really think I'd hate that type of crafting. I want to spend my time playing the game, not writing down endless lists of variables and trying to figure out how to get the best combination to get what I want. Like I said, I don't know anything about the SWG crafting system, so I could be very wrong. It just sounds like an incredibly frustrating time sink.
I do like the Diablo random stat gen but I would say that is great for SP and multi-player RPGs (not MMORPGs). I'm not sure, but Hellgate London might have this (awsome), it is the orignal team of Diablo so we can expect great things (including random map gen!). Now what would be pretty cool (kind of but maybe not) would be the random dungeon generator. Doesn't have to be random but every week the worlds select a map (lets just do a WoW example, week 1 BWL has map A, next week it could have map D, week after map C) so have at most 10 different maps (not slight differences, a whole new layout). This way raids wouldn't be boring lol. Just a thought but that may cause more problems
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Makes me want to play D1 and D2 now....
The suggestions in this thread offer great solutions to a problem that many MMOs today create for themselves for whatever reason. As technology advances and a new age of gaming dawns I think item looting will be a thing of the past. In all the years I have spent MMORPGs and games in general I have never fully understood item looting in the first place. I never understood how an item such as a metal sword could appear after killing a tiger made of flesh and bone. I understand that it is an incentive for players to fight a creature over and over again, but why not try something new?
One way would be to add a little more realism to the MMORPG (more like magic realism considering many MMOs are fantasy based). For example, instead of killing a certain monster over and over again to get an item with perfect stats, one could just throw out the stats altogether. For those that enjoy the surprise of seeing how good a weapon is can truly be surprised by testing out said weapon in battle. To obtain such a weapon a player could either craft it or buy it from a vendor or a friend that crafted it. Depending on how much effort was put in creating the weapon would determine the final outcome of the weapon. If a person spent much time sharpening the blade of a sword but not much thought into how much it weighed, the weapon might be strong and sharp enough to slice through armor but may be too heavy to swing around - in turn slowing down the person's attack speed. The accuracy of the player would depend on how much time a player spent practicing swordsmanship. He would have to aim himself and an attack would hit no matter what, but how accurate it was (basically how much hand-eye coordination the toon had developed) would depend on how much practice the character itself had - it would have nothing to do with the weapon.
Of course, a game such as this will probably not be out any time soon, it might not come out ever, but it is definitely something to think about as we approach a new age in technology and gaming. The resources are available, but it depends on if gamers show a want for such features to be put into a game.
Which FF Character Are You?
You find parts of animals to have you little "Helper" craft the weapon for you.
Killing a Bolma may get you some bolma claws which will help with making a rare claw weapon, rather good system.
However most complain it isn't fun. Players simply need "PHATZOR LEWT" to keep playing, it's appealing the natural gambling addiction humans have (random numbers and such).
It is frustrating as hell to get garbage all the time, but it is very exciting when you finally loot something decent.
Of course items in DDO come solely from chests and end rewards. Some end rewards used to be static, same items everytime you complete the quest, they changed that now and it is more annoying then ever. It used to be like, "Ok, we need to run this quest chain three times to get the items we need"... now it is, "OMG this is my 20th run and I have STILL not gotten the Spectacular Optics".
The named static items that have a chance to drop in chests are also extremely rare and can take FOREVER to get.
Rarity is what makes it exciting.
I think a neat way to create uniqueness would be through item synthesis, among other things. This could work both with randomly generated loot and fixed pieces (allowing the items to become unique).
Not sure if anyone has played it, but Vagrant Story had a system like what I am describing, where you can synthesize gear you have found (I may be wrong since it has been a while, but I think it was only for weapons).
After creating a new item, you could even name it whatever you wanted.
This in addition to material based improvements and whatnot could make pieces not only unique but more in line with what the player wants. Furthermore, if implemented right, an item would not necessarily become obsolete as you move along.
I have conversed with some that hate finding a weapon or something that makes them feel special, only to lose it in 10 or so levels (depending on the game of course) because it becomes weak.
Though, I suppose all that is required to do this would be materials to buff the item, I think something like this would give more purpose to variety of different equipment pieces.
Excellent posts in here - great read.
I definitely see the issue of balancing complexity v. simplicity - for the players and the developers. Some players find more complexity to be tedious and dull, while others can't get enough variation. More complexity means more work for developers (in creating graphics for new weapons, balancing statistics, etc.) I will say that WoW Burning Crusade was on the right track by adding slots to weapons/armor to attach gems, so players can choose some of the stats (and the fact that other players actually cut the gems further develops the economy.) This avoids the pain of getting a random stat item that doesn't meet your needs, and you can change the stats (gems) if you change your mind. But, I haven't played TBC enough to know if things have come down to all players of a particular class trying to get the same gems for the same weapons so that ultimately everyone is the same anyway. I suspect play styles are creating some variation.
For me, I seriously value variety of appearance (which makes tiered armor sets a real bore.) It will be nice some day when MMOs advance to where an indivual player/crafter can sculpt weapons and armor based on their own visual designs (could have an editing tool that at least keeps the appearances within the general range of aesthetics of the game, and to crunch everything down to variables that can be transmitted in a reasonable period of time instead of having to download individual graphics data every time you encounter a new person - the face editor of Oblivion comes to mind as far as the amount of control a crafter might have over variables.) Then crafters could make a name by their visual creativity instead of just pumping out the same items/stats as everyone else. Characters could look quite different from each other. If you saw someone with an excellent new sword, you might need to track down the actual player/crafter to get a similar one made for you. Perhaps periodic ingame events would spawn a few creatures/bosses that drop extremely rare or one-of-a-kind crafting components that give huge/interesting stat gains and visual elements in the crafting process (like some kind of unique enchantment aura.) If you were lucky enough to get one, you might hunt for the crafter who could turn it into something not only powerful but visually amazing.
This is a good post, and I agree with the OP, from my own experience anyways. No matter how many times you played Diablo you always found items you hadnt see before, this gave the game a feeling of wanting to make more toons, and explore more and gave the game a feeling that it didnt end. SWG dealt the best way with this I think, you were able to always craft armor with different stats than your previous stuff, the quality of resources had an effect on your armors stats as well as the city you were crafting in and or if you were wearing an apron with bonus to crafting proffesion. I agree that we should've had more choices when it comes to armor type but all we had was Composite and some decent Padded armor but still it was the best crafting system that I know and it was worth it. What I don't understand is how much people post about SWG crafting system being so great and the developers never take it into consideration but classes always come as a priority (rogue/mage/warrior/ranger blah blah), why cant a crafting class be also something you can pick why not make crafting worth it, why is it so bad to make craftable items be superior to what drops? I dont think we will ever see a game like that. Anyway I dont want to get out of topic, I think the OP brings a valid point and I totally agree with him.
One thing I hated about wow was how almost all the priests in the raid had identical gear so the only thing that set you apart from them was mabye your hair color, there was really no feeling of you being unique you just felt like a clone of a previously made up model.
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