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Whatever happened to immersion?
Zindaihas
Member UncommonPosts: 3,662
The last few MMOs I have played, I just haven't gotten that feeling of being immersed in an online world. Has anyone else felt this way? I don't know if it's me or if its the games. Maybe it's a little bit of both. Like a drug, my tolerance level for the immersion experience has increased and it takes an even more realistic world to get me to feel that way again. At the same time, devs maybe aren't really putting in enough effort to try to create that feeling. Don't they shoot for that when they test their games? Can the immersion experience even be measured in a tangible way or do you just know it when you experience it?
Comments
EQ 2. Good graphics. World feel. Great sounds.
Try that.
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.
I don't think there are many games design for that model. They all say immersed but I don't feel it. Although, I'm surprisingly cold so that doesn't help. SWG/SB really got me immersed in the lovely backstabbing, human nature is dark and sick... and amusing. Back to the point, I find games with building cities/ communities most immersive, but everyone is different.
immersion is not in a bean counter's vocabulary. only roi.
Immersion in MMORPG's = First Person View + Harsh Death Penalty + Wondrous and mysterious game world
Change or dampen any of those things and you start to lose immersion. For immersion to happen, you have to feel (temporarily) that you are the character, instead of someone controlling the character.
To me immersion lies in the lore and history of the particular games world. The graphics do add the superficial element, but we know that graphics alone does not make for a 'good' game, Vanguard. Game lore, history or lineage of the inhabitants is falling to the way side. Some of the newer players are all about the guts of the game and climbing the level ladder to get to the 'fun stuff'. Along the way the subtly and nuances are now just road signs to be glimpsed as they drive to the destination.
The game community also plays a big part in the immersion.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
EQ 2 and Lorto has good game atmosphere.
In general term the problem is that they aren't really anymore virtual worlds, they are solo games. Todays newest mmorpgs are loosing they inside communities, because the main attitude is me, me and me.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
this is a tough subject.
first, I think different elements do different things for different players. An MMO that I might find myself easily immersed in might very well not work for you.
second, I've decided that the more MMO's you have played the more difficult you are to please. You will never again experience that feeling you got in your first MMO!
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Don't forget the lore or storyline of the game. That is the foundation from which immersion occurs.
To attempt an answer or an observation, at best, for the OP's question, I think what has happened to many of the games that have been release since 2004, is basically one of being too compliant to an changing consumer base. There are quite a few that came to MMORPG from the FPS console world between the years of 2002 through 2004. They wanted something more akin to what they were used to on their Xbox, PS2, and Nintendo. It seems we have more games out there with less of immersive feel and more apt to be PvP oriented.
How many of the up-coming games boast quite extensively on their awesome PvP mechanics?
I am NOT against PvP, nor have I ever been. But, I have been an ardent proponent of MMO's including PvP as function or part of the game rather making the game itself. Many of the newer gamers out there simply don't want to put in the "hours" questing and adventuring, or even reading about various factions and their histories, for that matter. They want it now and and a fast paced rock'em sock'em PvP experience.
Maybe, just maybe this is why you are feeling the loss of immersion...
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
I do think it is a combination of things. 1. we have changed. We are not willing to put up with bugs, death by lag things that never bothered us before are grating on us now.
2. We the community have aged. From those that started in eq way long ago have finished 1 or more to end game and discovered most are the same now
3. Folks do not stick together or work with each other as in the past. Rather that is due to wow factor or just time and real life constraints we just do not do, the help each other out to finish a quest like we have in the past. Try a new mmorpg with no pals coming from a place with not a built in guild it is tough to get into it
4. After market ,2nds market, if you want it buy it now no need to earn it
5. We do not get the ahhh factor upon achievement as in days past. Again that may be due to lack of ease of making new pals in the newer games or seeing others exploit and get frustrated with their speed hacks or other hacks
6. The hooks aren't enough to keep us involved . Or if we achieve something we know the next expansion pack makes items achievements worthless
7. So many of us are burned out and yet still hopeful there is some majical combination game out there that will really have the "it " factor for us.
8. Competion from other markets such as consoles ,and or keeping up with updating pcs gets very old
9. Economy real world, betwen higher gas prices, and higher living expenses, sumer time heating bills, in back of our minds budget conserns make contininug a subscription not worth the effort when oh nos strike, or i'm bored not having fun
10. If we get the feeling been there done that, no use to do it again, seems to be power for the course at this point.
Many of you have given very good reasons and explanations for the 'lack' of immersion in today's MMORPGs. I agree with most of you because imemrsion can mean different things to different gamers.
So, as not to repeat opinions, I will give the general reasoning why I no longer feel immersed.
In my opinion, MMORPGs used to be these interestingly created 'worlds' that I could create an avatar and become apart of. Choices were usually plentiful and my path direction was 'usualy' my own or it at least appeared to be.
Now, todays MMORPGS seem to be almost all about combat and they are made to make each player feel they are the 'hero'. Add to this that MMORPGs are generated nowdays for mass appeal for maximizing profits (not blaming comapnies for this), and what you usually get is a very easy, watered-down version of a 'game'.
The MMORPGs I have felt most immersed in had a plethora of choices at all times. Even from the moment I logged in, I had many choices in what I could do that session. To me, a really great immersive 'game' should be a very detailed, interactive, simulated world that can exist even without the player with great game elements implemented throughout its core design.
In simpler words, a simulated world with game elements. Not a game with simulated world elements.
I long for that day when I can log into a simulated world where every NPC, humanoid and creature alike, has their own wants and needs and goes about their own lives, where everything created for the world can be interacted with and where choices are plentiful and combat is not the ONLY, or even needed for all things, progression in my visit to this world.
But .... I realize that may not happen in my time.
Well I agree immersion has dropped considerably in recent games. I think for me part of it is that MMO's are turning into solo games with the occasional group to get a tough quest done. Guilds and kinships are more like chat rooms filled with "can someone help me with X quest", than the cohesive groups of friends of games past. A big part of immersion for me is grouping with a few friends and spending some time exploring a really tough dungeon, not because theres a quest npc in there that half of us need to talk to, but because we want to explore and make some xp, and maybe die a couple times. Yes dying in really challenging areas can be fun, and adds to the immersion. It's so much more fun to just gather a group of friends of varying levels and hit a dungeon and kill stuff for xp, than it is to try to find people of the exact same level who are on the exact same step of a quest chain as you. Quest chains and all the solo play are killing the social aspect of MMO's. Not to mention making players more selfish.
Also, everyone considers themselves a "MMO expert" these days. The mindset of the MMO player has shifted from working as a team to achieve common goals, to being solo quest junkies who pride themselves on getting thru quests and levels in the shortest time possible. Is that really fun? A mass multiplayer world full of solo players isnt really my idea of a good time.
They need to bring the "multiplayer" back to MMOs. As anyone who has been playing MMO's from the beginning knows, these current MMOs are more like solo games than MMO's. And Im not saying people who like to solo shouldnt be able to do so in MMOs. Im saying, stop designing games where solo play is the only really viable way of leveling up via quests.
Immersion diminished once raiding and faction/aa grinding became the staple of most MMO's. When you have to do repetitive grinding tasks to level or advance over and over again immersion dies a slow death.
I disagree that solo questing hurts immersion. You don't need to always group to find immersion. Many times the best moments in a game are those when you are out by yourself exploring the world or trying to complete a quest of some nature.
You don't always need 5 other people to hold your hand when you go to the toilet and neither should you do so in a MMO when doing quests. In fact the best immersion based games that weren't MMO's like pnp D&D had a small group to single player aspect that allowed you to progress your player and be immersed beyond belief in the game world.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Also, games today direct the player so much that that's almost the whole of the game play. I wonder if a game left players to their own devices more, if the players wouldn't get together and do more on their own. In the old days of UO players would get together to do things like:
I miss those days. Players who started after UO don't know what it's like to have the freedom to do so many things.
Once upon a time....
The illusion of being in an alternate world is what creates immersion. The problem is that developers seem to have given up on creating that illusion and players have gotten too good at seeing through it.
Remember your first mmorpg? Remember that sense of wonder and the feeling of seemingly limitless possibilities you had before you knew too much about the game? You had that because you were caught up in the world illusion, at least to some degree. But as you played the game longer and longer the illusion was chipped away bit by bit. Eventually you saw the game not as a world but as a collection of game mechanics. When the illusion of being in a world is gone then the immersion is gone.
A big part of the problem is that linear mmorpgs have become the standard. As someone else on these boards recently said, it's like being put on a conveyor belt and rolled through the predetermined path untill you are dumped off at the end. These mmorpgs aren't even trying to create the illusion of a world. They are just ladder climbing exercises. Climb to the top, hang around enjoying the view for a while, then get off and go to the next ladder (next mmorpg).
I've said it before and I'll say it again; the only way we will ever get away from this is if developers move away from character progression as the focus of these games. As long as these games are ladder climbing exercises we can't have virtual worlds.
Nail. Hammer. Hit.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
That's a great point, made by you and a few others on this thread. Immersion is definitely more than just the graphics and the visual world. There has to be a story (lore) that goes along with that world that makes you want to be there. And the more story the better. As long as it is a cohesive story and is pretty easy to follow.
Have to agree with most others... EQ2 and LOTRO are your best bets for immersion..
I totally agree with the OP though.. I have many posts here about immersion being of the utmost importance to me.
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psyconius Cthulhu
Gothika Studios
Daoc was nice in that you only zoned when going into cities/dungeons or changing continents.
Immersion really comes from the player and their imagination. When I played EQ I was still pretty young and I was always creating my own reasons for killing things or going to explore differnt places. I didn't just do for the experience when I first started out.
Now it seems when I play RPG leveling type of games I don't really imagine I'm going on an adventure anymore. It's just a grind for me now. I believe it's mostly to do with getting older and having played a lot of the same type of game.
Hi
My first was Underlight...everything was new and exciting....but it turned into a virtual chat room..everything was new there too..after playing different MMO'S you know just what to expect, so it's been there and done that before...Boredom then sets in...the fun dwindles ..
I've even thought of trying UO but I don't hear much good about it either...I just want something deep..graphics don't me
an anything.
That's a great point, made by you and a few others on this thread. Immersion is definitely more than just the graphics and the visual world. There has to be a story (lore) that goes along with that world that makes you want to be there. And the more story the better. As long as it is a cohesive story and is pretty easy to follow.
Well, I partly disagree. I mean a good story is great, but if it's not evolving and/or has no other meaning, it's just a backdrop just like the graphics. Story has to have meaning in the game play, whether it's moving along as players witness things, or even if it hides long lost secrets for player discovery, and would be best served if player actions could actually affect that storyline.
Once upon a time....
That is because recent MMOs have focused on player interaction with NPCs and Mobs. Immersion in MMOs does not come from interacting with dumb AI, it comes from interacting with other players in a meaningful way that has an effect on the game world. At one time Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and even Shadowbane did a good job of creating immersion by giving players the chance to change their game world and interact with each other to create their own story rather than follow some watered down storyline tied together with repetitive quests, mobs, and instances.
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Hero's Journey