Originally posted by Kyleran Truth is, the real challenge for game designers is to somehow handicap players so that they think that 'everyone' has a chance to win. They accomplish this by saying...look... .if you play long enough, you'll get gear that will make up for your lack of gaming prowess and give you a chance to win. The actual fact is that they'll still lose more often than not.... against a really talented player (you'd be amazed how many people who lose think its gear when the fact is, they really aren't as good as they think they are)
Thank you. Someone finally said it. Most people that complain about imbalance in a game are usually the ones that suck. If you suck here, then you'll still suck somewhere else. Otherwise you would be somewhere else. Quit blaming game mechanics for you sucking. Either learn to get better, or quit.
That's my general semi-flame for the week. Had to fill my quota.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
almost every mmo out there requires alot of time to be good at the game. for example in wow you have to raid a whole bunch to get the best armor to be the best. now where is the skill or talent in that? i dont want to waste 6 hours of my life playing a computer game just to be better than someone else on it. what if you are truly better? what if you have better gaming skills or just have a talent for it? why cant this be the same on mmo's? you ever play a game for awhile than you challange your friend at it who never played it before but he beats you anyway? that is talent. we need mmo's that allows you to use this talent and to build up skill not levels. we need to improve ourselves by actually doin these abilities rather than just worryin about levelin up. isnt this how the real world works? why not imply this to mmo's?
In my opinion, i think they do this because anyone can waste time on a game and that balances the game out. If it was all skill, then they would lose alot of members because of other players being so good it would be frustrating. So if the members who arent as good at the game, feel their getting beat by time and not skill, they wont give up on the game, they will only spend more time on it.
almost every mmo out there requires alot of time to be good at the game. for example in wow you have to raid a whole bunch to get the best armor to be the best. now where is the skill or talent in that? i dont want to waste 6 hours of my life playing a computer game just to be better than someone else on it. what if you are truly better? what if you have better gaming skills or just have a talent for it? why cant this be the same on mmo's? you ever play a game for awhile than you challange your friend at it who never played it before but he beats you anyway? that is talent. we need mmo's that allows you to use this talent and to build up skill not levels. we need to improve ourselves by actually doin these abilities rather than just worryin about levelin up. isnt this how the real world works? why not imply this to mmo's?
No it doesn't really work that way in real life. Experience means a lot in life too. You never seen a more experienced player beat a more skilled player in anything? The sports world is full of examples where experience won out over talent and ability. No, it's not always that way, but it can be. Not only that it, but it is possible for a lower level character or less well equipped character to beat a higher level character or better equipped one. Play a little PvP and you'll see it happen all the time. All things being equal, then your level or gear make up the difference, but a highly skilled PvP player will own a poor PvP player no matter what his gear. Level is a little less forgiving simply because a large level difference means it's going to be much tougher for the lower level player to hit the higher one and things like that.
Unless you give an mmorpg aiming and dodging then its not gonna take skill to play, a monkey can push buttons on a keyboard to shoot fireballs at targeted enemies. I would have to laugh if people believe they are accomplishing some impossible feat playing games like that.
The idea of having a pure skill based MMORPG is stupid. Why wouldnt you just go play an RTS if thats what you wanted? They are pure skill...
The whole point of the time investment is to advance your character. How can you have an MMORPG that ignores advancements yet provides an incentive to obtain the gear? You can't. WoW is very close to a game that tries to eliminate the gear factor from pvp, which is why I don't like it. It wasn't enough reward for me to keep beating their PvE instances.. although it is fun the first time you do it.
An MMORPG should be like time + skill > skill imo. But, it should provide enough incentive for people to invest time in PvE content as well.
Even though you may enjoy having someone who played the game for 5 minutes beat someone who invested years of playing into a character.. it's not my idea of an MMORPG. I am better than 99% of people who play my class in any given MMORPG, yet I would rather have it be somewhat slanted toward gear.
When you create a pure skill based MMO, you will create something that is boring for everyone who plays it.
WTF are you talking about? Its all about the gear... The only reason gear might not matter in pvp would be because you were playing people 8 levels above you.
RPG's(Roleplaying games for the not-so-hardcore enthusiast) is about roleplaying, and roleplaying is about developing a character... And you dont develop a character just by sitting staring at it for 8 hours.
MMORPG's is kind of like a RPG, but with more people, thats why the "MMO" extension(is it an extension if its in front of the word?). Which means Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.
If i used 8 hours a day to develop my character, writing the stories, doing quests for wealthy kings and other stuff... Im supposed to be rewarded the exact same, because you just hitched up the little princess in the tower, on your way to the castle... Instead of me, who used good amount of time to know the kings men, who introduced me to the king, after doing a series of quests.
Rather than you who used less than an eight of the time, saving his girl. Surely you should get rewarded, but the time i spent gathering Experience from all the kings men... Would in the end give me a greater resource of Experience than you got.
I love my FPS's (and mind, not the tactical new generation but old school, mindless, all-out twitch fests)... But when it comes to CRPGs I just hate it when any sort of twitch factor is involved.
The computer RPG genre was built to be one where commitment, careful planning and all-around smarts stood out as deciding factors in battles. Many classics of this genre were turn-based for crying out loud! Your character's progression was where the sense of satisfaction lied... And your gear, as well as the general raw *power* of your characer (yes, mostly level and skills) was a huge part of that. When you try to strip the genre of that, you're practically threatening to destroy the very core of the genre, in my opinion.
Maybe it's just that some people enjoy a few aspects of RPGs, but actually don't really like the genre as a whole. The correct way of companies tackling this would not be to strip more than half of what makes traditional RPGs so fun and satisfying to the genre's fans, but to just import a few of those popular aspects into other genres. It's a good thing we're already seeing this happen to a degree. I think the MMORPG genre should always keep its character progression and gear focus...
There's plenty of room for improvement in MMORPGs.... Only, not on the twitch factor front but on the story and social interaction fronts instead.
almost every mmo out there requires alot of time to be good at the game. for example in wow you have to raid a whole bunch to get the best armor to be the best. now where is the skill or talent in that? i dont want to waste 6 hours of my life playing a computer game just to be better than someone else on it. what if you are truly better? what if you have better gaming skills or just have a talent for it? why cant this be the same on mmo's? you ever play a game for awhile than you challange your friend at it who never played it before but he beats you anyway? that is talent. we need mmo's that allows you to use this talent and to build up skill not levels. we need to improve ourselves by actually doin these abilities rather than just worryin about levelin up. isnt this how the real world works? why not imply this to mmo's?
You are in the wrong genre then. The genre that you are looking for is the MMOFPS. RPG's are all about the skill of your character, not the skill of the person. The whole idea of a RPG is to develop your character ranging from attributes, class, race, class skills, and gear. The person who puts in more time should be better when playing a MMORPG or a RPG for that matter. FPS games on the other hand are all about skill and reflex. Now, there are a such thing as hybrids. You can see good examples of these with the Elder Scrolls series and any other game that has twitch combat and the ability to level up or upgrade your character.
You may want to look into Planetside which is already released or Age of Conan, soon to be released.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I love my FPS's (and mind, not the tactical new generation but old school, mindless, all-out twitch fests)... But when it comes to CRPGs I just hate it when any sort of twitch factor is involved. The computer RPG genre was built to be one where commitment, careful planning and all-around smarts stood out as deciding factors in battles. Many classics of this genre were turn-based for crying out loud! Your character's progression was where the sense of satisfaction lied... And your gear, as well as the general raw *power* of your characer (yes, mostly level and skills) was a huge part of that. When you try to strip the genre of that, you're practically threatening to destroy the very core of the genre, in my opinion. Maybe it's just that some people enjoy a few aspects of RPGs, but actually don't really like the genre as a whole. The correct way of companies tackling this would not be to strip more than half of what makes traditional RPGs so fun and satisfying to the genre's fans, but to just import a few of those popular aspects into other genres. It's a good thing we're already seeing this happen to a degree. I think the MMORPG genre should always keep its character progression and gear focus... There's plenty of room for improvement in MMORPGs.... Only, not on the twitch factor front but on the story and social interaction fronts instead.
QFT
Very well said, and I agree. There is, however, some sense of skill in these games. You obviously don't just stand there and let the bad guy hit you. There are skills you learn to use and when to use them. You see a mage casting a big spell, you stun him, or stifle, or do something about it. Plus, each person has their role, or duty, to perform based on what "skills" your alter ego possesses.
A lot of "dungeons", group or raids, are puzzles you figure out to get to the end and get the prize. You obviously don't just run in, sprint to the end, and kill the bad guy. And usually just killing the bad guy at the end is a puzzle itself. Do I stand up to him toe to toe? Do I rush in and hit and rush out? Do I attack from a distance because hitting him would kill me faster than killing him? You're right, it's not twitch gaming, but it still requires some degree of skill. Why is there only 2 or 3 guilds able to take on the toughest mobs in the game? Because it's easy?
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Well usually the in game skills are meant for a specific purpose, so unless your a moron you should be able to figure out when to use what; its not really "skill" if any regular 12 year old can do it. Things that require a lots of people to do such as raids are usually determined by simply figuring out the cheesiest combination through trial and error and having a group with people who know there roll and care enough about the game not to screw around.
No mmorpg right now is really about skill, doesnt mean its not fun its just not a challenge. Thats not counting the "skill" of getting a good group together or anything like that, im more talking about strategic skill and reflexes.
Originally posted by turnipz Well usually the in game skills are meant for a specific purpose, so unless your a moron you should be able to figure out when to use what; its not really "skill" if any regular 12 year old can do it. Things that require a lots of people to do such as raids are usually determined by simply figuring out the cheesiest combination through trial and error and having a group with people who know there roll and care enough about the game not to screw around.
No mmorpg right now is really about skill, doesnt mean its not fun its just not a challenge. Thats not counting the "skill" of getting a good group together or anything like that, im more talking about strategic skill and reflexes.
The only thing I see you do is whine and whine again about how rpg don't need skills. And to be honest you really make yourself look more stupid with that. You won't win against another player by just pressing your sequence of skills you found out that is effective in pve.
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
Well usually the in game skills are meant for a specific purpose, so unless your a moron you should be able to figure out when to use what; its not really "skill" if any regular 12 year old can do it. Things that require a lots of people to do such as raids are usually determined by simply figuring out the cheesiest combination through trial and error and having a group with people who know there roll and care enough about the game not to screw around.
No mmorpg right now is really about skill, doesnt mean its not fun its just not a challenge. Thats not counting the "skill" of getting a good group together or anything like that, im more talking about strategic skill and reflexes.
The only thing I see you do is whine and whine again about how rpg don't need skills. And to be honest you really make yourself look more stupid with that. You won't win against another player by just pressing your sequence of skills you found out that is effective in pve.
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
Originally posted by andyjd Think he was talking about PVE more than PVP.....
well then it depends on how well they made the AI. And how good the player is to find the sequence. Still requires thinking, at least for the first guy to find out, not those sheep that follow the flavour of the month
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
Most of the time I would have to say that experience usually trumps skill or talent (of course that would depend on the amount of experience).
I think you need to be a little more specific about what type of MMO you are talking about. If you are refering to MMOFPS, then I would have to agree with you. If you are talking about a MMORPG, then I would disagree.
A RPG is about the character, not the player. Ideally, preparation and strategy become more important than twitch. The levels and skills of a RPG are meant to approximate your character's experience and training. The more you put into a RPG the more you get out of it. I am not sure that it would be fair to do otherwise.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Well usually the in game skills are meant for a specific purpose, so unless your a moron you should be able to figure out when to use what; its not really "skill" if any regular 12 year old can do it. Things that require a lots of people to do such as raids are usually determined by simply figuring out the cheesiest combination through trial and error and having a group with people who know there roll and care enough about the game not to screw around.
No mmorpg right now is really about skill, doesnt mean its not fun its just not a challenge. Thats not counting the "skill" of getting a good group together or anything like that, im more talking about strategic skill and reflexes.
The only thing I see you do is whine and whine again about how rpg don't need skills. And to be honest you really make yourself look more stupid with that. You won't win against another player by just pressing your sequence of skills you found out that is effective in pve.
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
Think he was talking about PVE more than PVP.....
Any PvE game suffers from that. AI is a solvable problem for a player. You learn what the AI does and you figure out ways to beat it. Once you solve the problem it offers little in the way of real challenge.
If anything MMO’s have fewer problems of this nature then a FPS or RTS game because you have constant developer modification to the AI and the constant introduction of new scripts and scenarios for the player the beat.
Well usually the in game skills are meant for a specific purpose, so unless your a moron you should be able to figure out when to use what; its not really "skill" if any regular 12 year old can do it. Things that require a lots of people to do such as raids are usually determined by simply figuring out the cheesiest combination through trial and error and having a group with people who know there roll and care enough about the game not to screw around.
No mmorpg right now is really about skill, doesnt mean its not fun its just not a challenge. Thats not counting the "skill" of getting a good group together or anything like that, im more talking about strategic skill and reflexes.
The only thing I see you do is whine and whine again about how rpg don't need skills. And to be honest you really make yourself look more stupid with that. You won't win against another player by just pressing your sequence of skills you found out that is effective in pve.
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
Think he was talking about PVE more than PVP.....
Any PvE game suffers from that. AI is a solvable problem for a player. You learn what the AI does and you figure out ways to beat it. Once you solve the problem it offers little in the way of real challenge.
If anything MMO’s have fewer problems of this nature then a FPS or RTS game because you have constant developer modification to the AI and the constant introduction of new scripts and scenarios for the player the beat.
I'm just waiting for the day when games have AI that evolves on its own. The AI trying to learn what the player is doing and trying to counter that. Then we will really have some challenging games.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
I'm just waiting for the day when games have AI that evolves on its own. The AI trying to learn what the player is doing and trying to counter that. Then we will really have some challenging games.
To a degree. It's already been proven that if AI is allowed to do anything it wants, it will ALWAYS win. That is why it is so hard to program AI in this game. A mob controlled by a program is MUCH faster than any human reflex and it wouldn't be challenging any more. It would just be an excercise in frustration. This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
what if you are truly better? what if you have better gaming skills or just have a talent for it?
99% of players who thinks they are skilled or talented, just play more than others. It's all about how much You play and how much You have played in past. There is no skill or anything, just illussion of it. All people who are really good at playing games, use a lot of time in playing games. It's same in everyting, if You want to be better than someone else, then practice, use more time than anyone else.
There is no what if. It's about dreaming and hoping what You aren't.
I'm just waiting for the day when games have AI that evolves on its own. The AI trying to learn what the player is doing and trying to counter that. Then we will really have some challenging games.
To a degree. It's already been proven that if AI is allowed to do anything it wants, it will ALWAYS win. That is why it is so hard to program AI in this game. A mob controlled by a program is MUCH faster than any human reflex and it wouldn't be challenging any more. It would just be an excercise in frustration. This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error.
I've never heard of any game with AI like that. Every game I have played higher difficulty doesn't mean better AI it only means more damage/HP for the enemy. Not talking about AI that has 100% accuracy or something I think he means AI that is actually strategic and makes you think and not do the same thing over and over.
Anyway, I think if a player is naturally talented that should be an advantage. If a someone who has played 2 years and never learns from their mistakes (like most players) they should not have an advantage over someone who has been playing a week but, really paying attention and learning what they did wrong. This is how FPS and RTS are and that is why being good in those actually counts for something in the game. MMORPG's will always be seen as games for people who suck at gaming by other gamers until the games become this way. Time will mean more skill for the people who learn from their mistakes though so a newb who is awesome still will have a very difficult time beating a skilled veteran.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Originally posted by bahamut1 To a degree. It's already been proven that if AI is allowed to do anything it wants, it will ALWAYS win. Proven? Mind Sourcing, rofl. That is why it is so hard to program AI in this game. You think dumbing the AI down is the problem? We play the same games? A mob controlled by a program is MUCH faster than any human reflex and it wouldn't be challenging any more. It would just be an excercise in frustration. Being faster doesn't mean more accurate or strategic, you must not be very good at games if you get "frustrated" by AI. This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error. Bots are outlawed in MMORPG's because they allow players to level their chars while AFK, I've never met someone that uses their bot to "win" in PvP. Never heard of FPS "botting", macroing yes, hacking yes, botting no... Maybe clarify your definition of botting.
I have only played one game in which I cannot defeat the higher levels of AI encountered, and that is Chess. As Chess AI is purely computing variable avenues of choice within a set rule structure the AI can beat me. In an open field however, with a multitude of variables and a flexible rule structure it will be at the very least decades and more likely centuries before we need to worry about AI defeating player intelligence.
I am ALL for skill and tactical thinking ,however it has to be done while taking into account players different connections.So this leaves out any fairplay in a twitch based system.You would have to have many many skills at your players disposal to make it a thinking mans game.Too few of skills and reactions become automatic with no thinking at all.So now the next problem>>>say you have a hundred skills at your disposal to choose from ,concerning various activities.How on earth would you access all these commands/skills?Could take you several seconds to find the ability or skill your looking for.Perhaps that would be a cool idea,it's sorta like making the right decision on how you carry your player before a situation arises.A good example would be not carrying a sniper rifle around all the time because you would be toast in any form of close combat.
Then you have to figure,there is alot of people out there who would find it cumbersome to try and remeber 100 or so different skills.You would also have to make the gameplay VERY slow as to allow for reaction playing,otherwise it becomes twitch based again and that favours connections bigtime,also your system and money spent can have a small bit of unfairness to a twitch style system.
All the games are the same,they are hit points,damage given ,damage taken.So best we could hope for is players being able to alot skills into defensive or offensive areas,that makes it pretty simplified.I think what alot of players including the OP are looking for is there own UNIQUE player/gameplay in the game.I read it all the time,players want mass customization,or they want to be able to change the world gameplay by actions they do.The problem with this is a huge one.How could any game really allow for say 5000 unique players on each server.I have one idea that i have never seen and would be cool but extremely if not impossible to achieve.That idea would be to have so many skills and abilities at players disposals that once a player uses a certain build,no other player on the server can copy it, sort of becomes LOCKED as you will.This could leave alot of players at dead ends when there builds are too close together,so that would take alot of thinking to make the design work.
I think this is why we see so many simple games.Map out a playing surface,throw in some foes,maybe some interactive items,weapons,gear and throw in some quests.Only thing beyond this format has been the masses crying for PVP or raiding AKA [endgame].Who knows maybe your skill/tactic based game may be in the near future but for now games are stressing on tight budgets to put out there simple games in 5 years.
I am with you however OP,i'd like to see something lean closer to SKILL/TACTICS and not all time=reward.We all realize however that in the real world,you do build your skills over TIME,so i guess we will never be ridda that factor.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Being faster doesn't mean more accurate or strategic, you must not be very good at games if you get "frustrated" by AI.
This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error.
Bots are outlawed in MMORPG's because they allow players to level their chars while AFK, I've never met someone that uses their bot to "win" in PvP. Never heard of FPS "botting", macroing yes, hacking yes, botting no... Maybe clarify your definition of botting.
Didn't see this til llater,but actually bahamut is exactly right.The cheat bots are scripted programs that other than LAG,wich they also address are unbeatable.They have 100% accuracy besides[lag],and target you as soon as you come into view.There is nothing other than lag that would allow you to see them faster or even have a chance at shooting them before you are already dead.The reason you don't know this is because you are referring only to the unmanned bots that are used in mmo's for farming.FPS bots are not unmanned.They are manned by a player who has an illegal script/.ini file loaded that sorta hacks the files ,adds more code.
AI can be set to be unbeatable in any game ,if the designers so wished it.This is why AI scripting is so hard,because finding that fine line while keeping it fun and challenging is hard.The AI has to be so VERSATILE that it can react to any style of gameplay.I don't see that EVER being done.The lines of code would have to be HUGE for each scenario.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Being faster doesn't mean more accurate or strategic, you must not be very good at games if you get "frustrated" by AI. This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error. Bots are outlawed in MMORPG's because they allow players to level their chars while AFK, I've never met someone that uses their bot to "win" in PvP. Never heard of FPS "botting", macroing yes, hacking yes, botting no... Maybe clarify your definition of botting.
Bots were a problem in the original online game scene, such as in quake and the like. Eventually all sorts of methods were invented to try to verify the client and such, so its less of a problem these days... How it worked was basically the game played itself, while you watched, or things like assisted aiming (the bot always targetted the right spot, you just moved around).
One of the most amusing things about it was being accused of botting, when you were in fact actually just pretty good. That was always something that made my day, since I have never and will never cheat in a game (because whats the point?).
Comments
Thank you. Someone finally said it. Most people that complain about imbalance in a game are usually the ones that suck. If you suck here, then you'll still suck somewhere else. Otherwise you would be somewhere else. Quit blaming game mechanics for you sucking. Either learn to get better, or quit.
That's my general semi-flame for the week. Had to fill my quota.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
In my opinion, i think they do this because anyone can waste time on a game and that balances the game out. If it was all skill, then they would lose alot of members because of other players being so good it would be frustrating. So if the members who arent as good at the game, feel their getting beat by time and not skill, they wont give up on the game, they will only spend more time on it.
Unless you give an mmorpg aiming and dodging then its not gonna take skill to play, a monkey can push buttons on a keyboard to shoot fireballs at targeted enemies. I would have to laugh if people believe they are accomplishing some impossible feat playing games like that.
The idea of having a pure skill based MMORPG is stupid. Why wouldnt you just go play an RTS if thats what you wanted? They are pure skill...
The whole point of the time investment is to advance your character. How can you have an MMORPG that ignores advancements yet provides an incentive to obtain the gear? You can't. WoW is very close to a game that tries to eliminate the gear factor from pvp, which is why I don't like it. It wasn't enough reward for me to keep beating their PvE instances.. although it is fun the first time you do it.
An MMORPG should be like time + skill > skill imo. But, it should provide enough incentive for people to invest time in PvE content as well.
Even though you may enjoy having someone who played the game for 5 minutes beat someone who invested years of playing into a character.. it's not my idea of an MMORPG. I am better than 99% of people who play my class in any given MMORPG, yet I would rather have it be somewhat slanted toward gear.
When you create a pure skill based MMO, you will create something that is boring for everyone who plays it.
WTF are you talking about? Its all about the gear... The only reason gear might not matter in pvp would be because you were playing people 8 levels above you.
Dont play MMORPG's.
RPG's(Roleplaying games for the not-so-hardcore enthusiast) is about roleplaying, and roleplaying is about developing a character... And you dont develop a character just by sitting staring at it for 8 hours.
MMORPG's is kind of like a RPG, but with more people, thats why the "MMO" extension(is it an extension if its in front of the word?). Which means Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.
If i used 8 hours a day to develop my character, writing the stories, doing quests for wealthy kings and other stuff... Im supposed to be rewarded the exact same, because you just hitched up the little princess in the tower, on your way to the castle... Instead of me, who used good amount of time to know the kings men, who introduced me to the king, after doing a series of quests.
Rather than you who used less than an eight of the time, saving his girl. Surely you should get rewarded, but the time i spent gathering Experience from all the kings men... Would in the end give me a greater resource of Experience than you got.
Are we clear, or want another sweet fairytale?
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
I love my FPS's (and mind, not the tactical new generation but old school, mindless, all-out twitch fests)... But when it comes to CRPGs I just hate it when any sort of twitch factor is involved.
The computer RPG genre was built to be one where commitment, careful planning and all-around smarts stood out as deciding factors in battles. Many classics of this genre were turn-based for crying out loud! Your character's progression was where the sense of satisfaction lied... And your gear, as well as the general raw *power* of your characer (yes, mostly level and skills) was a huge part of that. When you try to strip the genre of that, you're practically threatening to destroy the very core of the genre, in my opinion.
Maybe it's just that some people enjoy a few aspects of RPGs, but actually don't really like the genre as a whole. The correct way of companies tackling this would not be to strip more than half of what makes traditional RPGs so fun and satisfying to the genre's fans, but to just import a few of those popular aspects into other genres. It's a good thing we're already seeing this happen to a degree. I think the MMORPG genre should always keep its character progression and gear focus...
There's plenty of room for improvement in MMORPGs.... Only, not on the twitch factor front but on the story and social interaction fronts instead.
You are in the wrong genre then. The genre that you are looking for is the MMOFPS. RPG's are all about the skill of your character, not the skill of the person. The whole idea of a RPG is to develop your character ranging from attributes, class, race, class skills, and gear. The person who puts in more time should be better when playing a MMORPG or a RPG for that matter. FPS games on the other hand are all about skill and reflex. Now, there are a such thing as hybrids. You can see good examples of these with the Elder Scrolls series and any other game that has twitch combat and the ability to level up or upgrade your character.
You may want to look into Planetside which is already released or Age of Conan, soon to be released.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Very well said, and I agree. There is, however, some sense of skill in these games. You obviously don't just stand there and let the bad guy hit you. There are skills you learn to use and when to use them. You see a mage casting a big spell, you stun him, or stifle, or do something about it. Plus, each person has their role, or duty, to perform based on what "skills" your alter ego possesses.
A lot of "dungeons", group or raids, are puzzles you figure out to get to the end and get the prize. You obviously don't just run in, sprint to the end, and kill the bad guy. And usually just killing the bad guy at the end is a puzzle itself. Do I stand up to him toe to toe? Do I rush in and hit and rush out? Do I attack from a distance because hitting him would kill me faster than killing him? You're right, it's not twitch gaming, but it still requires some degree of skill. Why is there only 2 or 3 guilds able to take on the toughest mobs in the game? Because it's easy?
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Well usually the in game skills are meant for a specific purpose, so unless your a moron you should be able to figure out when to use what; its not really "skill" if any regular 12 year old can do it. Things that require a lots of people to do such as raids are usually determined by simply figuring out the cheesiest combination through trial and error and having a group with people who know there roll and care enough about the game not to screw around.
No mmorpg right now is really about skill, doesnt mean its not fun its just not a challenge. Thats not counting the "skill" of getting a good group together or anything like that, im more talking about strategic skill and reflexes.
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
Think he was talking about PVE more than PVP.....
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
Most of the time I would have to say that experience usually trumps skill or talent (of course that would depend on the amount of experience).
I think you need to be a little more specific about what type of MMO you are talking about. If you are refering to MMOFPS, then I would have to agree with you. If you are talking about a MMORPG, then I would disagree.
A RPG is about the character, not the player. Ideally, preparation and strategy become more important than twitch. The levels and skills of a RPG are meant to approximate your character's experience and training. The more you put into a RPG the more you get out of it. I am not sure that it would be fair to do otherwise.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
Think he was talking about PVE more than PVP.....
Agreed that the rpg doesn't need the aiming skills and in lesser form the reflexes as in a FPS. But it sure needs skills to think about your moves and calculate what the other player will do. Just like checkers, but wait checkers don't need skills right?
Think he was talking about PVE more than PVP.....
I'm just waiting for the day when games have AI that evolves on its own. The AI trying to learn what the player is doing and trying to counter that. Then we will really have some challenging games.
- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -
To a degree. It's already been proven that if AI is allowed to do anything it wants, it will ALWAYS win. That is why it is so hard to program AI in this game. A mob controlled by a program is MUCH faster than any human reflex and it wouldn't be challenging any more. It would just be an excercise in frustration. This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
99% of players who thinks they are skilled or talented, just play more than others. It's all about how much You play and how much You have played in past. There is no skill or anything, just illussion of it. All people who are really good at playing games, use a lot of time in playing games. It's same in everyting, if You want to be better than someone else, then practice, use more time than anyone else.
There is no what if. It's about dreaming and hoping what You aren't.
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To a degree. It's already been proven that if AI is allowed to do anything it wants, it will ALWAYS win. That is why it is so hard to program AI in this game. A mob controlled by a program is MUCH faster than any human reflex and it wouldn't be challenging any more. It would just be an excercise in frustration. This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error.
I've never heard of any game with AI like that. Every game I have played higher difficulty doesn't mean better AI it only means more damage/HP for the enemy. Not talking about AI that has 100% accuracy or something I think he means AI that is actually strategic and makes you think and not do the same thing over and over.
Anyway, I think if a player is naturally talented that should be an advantage. If a someone who has played 2 years and never learns from their mistakes (like most players) they should not have an advantage over someone who has been playing a week but, really paying attention and learning what they did wrong. This is how FPS and RTS are and that is why being good in those actually counts for something in the game. MMORPG's will always be seen as games for people who suck at gaming by other gamers until the games become this way. Time will mean more skill for the people who learn from their mistakes though so a newb who is awesome still will have a very difficult time beating a skilled veteran.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
I used to raid in WoW with a guild that had a lot of casual players who would come raiding on occasion too.
I can say with certainty that skill and experience makes a HUGE difference.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
I am ALL for skill and tactical thinking ,however it has to be done while taking into account players different connections.So this leaves out any fairplay in a twitch based system.You would have to have many many skills at your players disposal to make it a thinking mans game.Too few of skills and reactions become automatic with no thinking at all.So now the next problem>>>say you have a hundred skills at your disposal to choose from ,concerning various activities.How on earth would you access all these commands/skills?Could take you several seconds to find the ability or skill your looking for.Perhaps that would be a cool idea,it's sorta like making the right decision on how you carry your player before a situation arises.A good example would be not carrying a sniper rifle around all the time because you would be toast in any form of close combat.
Then you have to figure,there is alot of people out there who would find it cumbersome to try and remeber 100 or so different skills.You would also have to make the gameplay VERY slow as to allow for reaction playing,otherwise it becomes twitch based again and that favours connections bigtime,also your system and money spent can have a small bit of unfairness to a twitch style system.
All the games are the same,they are hit points,damage given ,damage taken.So best we could hope for is players being able to alot skills into defensive or offensive areas,that makes it pretty simplified.I think what alot of players including the OP are looking for is there own UNIQUE player/gameplay in the game.I read it all the time,players want mass customization,or they want to be able to change the world gameplay by actions they do.The problem with this is a huge one.How could any game really allow for say 5000 unique players on each server.I have one idea that i have never seen and would be cool but extremely if not impossible to achieve.That idea would be to have so many skills and abilities at players disposals that once a player uses a certain build,no other player on the server can copy it, sort of becomes LOCKED as you will.This could leave alot of players at dead ends when there builds are too close together,so that would take alot of thinking to make the design work.
I think this is why we see so many simple games.Map out a playing surface,throw in some foes,maybe some interactive items,weapons,gear and throw in some quests.Only thing beyond this format has been the masses crying for PVP or raiding AKA [endgame].Who knows maybe your skill/tactic based game may be in the near future but for now games are stressing on tight budgets to put out there simple games in 5 years.
I am with you however OP,i'd like to see something lean closer to SKILL/TACTICS and not all time=reward.We all realize however that in the real world,you do build your skills over TIME,so i guess we will never be ridda that factor.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Being faster doesn't mean more accurate or strategic, you must not be very good at games if you get "frustrated" by AI.
This is why bots are outlawed in most games, including FPS, because they give such an unfair advantage. They never miss, and can move strategically without error.
Bots are outlawed in MMORPG's because they allow players to level their chars while AFK, I've never met someone that uses their bot to "win" in PvP. Never heard of FPS "botting", macroing yes, hacking yes, botting no... Maybe clarify your definition of botting.
Didn't see this til llater,but actually bahamut is exactly right.The cheat bots are scripted programs that other than LAG,wich they also address are unbeatable.They have 100% accuracy besides[lag],and target you as soon as you come into view.There is nothing other than lag that would allow you to see them faster or even have a chance at shooting them before you are already dead.The reason you don't know this is because you are referring only to the unmanned bots that are used in mmo's for farming.FPS bots are not unmanned.They are manned by a player who has an illegal script/.ini file loaded that sorta hacks the files ,adds more code.
AI can be set to be unbeatable in any game ,if the designers so wished it.This is why AI scripting is so hard,because finding that fine line while keeping it fun and challenging is hard.The AI has to be so VERSATILE that it can react to any style of gameplay.I don't see that EVER being done.The lines of code would have to be HUGE for each scenario.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Bots were a problem in the original online game scene, such as in quake and the like. Eventually all sorts of methods were invented to try to verify the client and such, so its less of a problem these days... How it worked was basically the game played itself, while you watched, or things like assisted aiming (the bot always targetted the right spot, you just moved around).
One of the most amusing things about it was being accused of botting, when you were in fact actually just pretty good. That was always something that made my day, since I have never and will never cheat in a game (because whats the point?).