The only comment and potential drawback I see with adding crafting later is that it tends to introduce the need to completely revamp classes and re-balance if it isn't done right.
Normally, if crafting is introduced on release it is designed as part of the system; meaning that the optimum configuration for given character classes normally includes specific crafted item types and that is planned.
Introducing crafting after the fact can lead to all manner of balance issues because the classes and the mobs are designed to deal with characters which were built on the base character/mob dynamic the game released with.
Class balance issues are also much more extreme in games that add their PvP element after release, because those elements have not been fully tested at release. That means adjustments will have to be made to accommodate PvP. Many players absolutely despise seeing their character's design mucked with and resent it deeply, and often that loathing is reflected in subscriptions.
A perfect example of this is what happened directly following the PvP and enhancement changes made in CoH. Changes were made across the board to individual power sets as well as overall powers (such as travel power suppression and Enhancement Diversification) which deeply affected players and resulted in many subscription cancellations. I think many players would agree that the affect on CoV was less noticeable because the classes in CoV were designed with Enhancement Diversification (ED) and the PvP changes in mind.
While CoH is still very enjoyable, it would be an accurate statement to say that it is not the same game experience it was on release. Many subscribers would say that it has improved, while many others would state the opposite and have made that statement by un-subscribing.
How that will affect Gods and Heroes remains to be seen.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
ummm.....would you buy a doorless car on the promise that you'll get the doors 6-12 months down the road?
Car doors are part of the core product. So no, I would not. But I would buy a car and add the DVD player and X-Box later on though.
Originally posted by Turdd
I'm going to have to say that is ridiculous. The truth is they need to make money before they can add all the other stuff so they need to release the game sooner without goodies like crafting. If what your saying is true why not focus all thought on the core game then al thought on crafting etc.... and then release a more full robust innovative game all at once wowing mmo players with such a complete well thought out MMO no one ever thought of before. I'm a fan of the game and will play it I'm just saying the truth is they need money before they can add the goodies which is why there releasing the game without that stuff first.
No matter how long you work on a game or test a game there will be something wrong with it because either there is so much coding that there are bugs or something looked better on paper but didn't pan out that well for the real deal. Not flaming or anything but thats an excuse because it looks bad if a company ever says they need money to continue making their product. No matter how upfront a business is there is always secrets, its required for them to thrive, people would worry too much if they knew everything and then the business would fail without support
Don't take it personal or anything but thats probably more of the truth, and at the same time if there not being any crafting bothers you then wait for them to make it, honestly if they were gana add it now then it would tak on even more time all there doing is giving the people something to play while they continue to improve it.
Release it sooner? The game has been in development just as long as any other (and maybe longer) standard MMO available today. To concentrate that time on the core game can only be a good thing. This has always been the game plan. As far back as i am able to look, there was never talk of having full PvP or crafting in at release. It has been a new approach and concept from day 1.
Sure, as with any software based product, there will always be bugs found after release when you have a huge amount of eyes looking at the product. That is not in debate here. The effort is to hopefully make it the most bug free/playable game MMORPG launch to date. I still say that if this works, we will see more companies take this route with future games as well.
As for money, at some point that will factor in. For P.E., I think they are still in a very comfortable zone at this point however. But as they have the product that they set out to make in hand, why not release it?
Originally posted by gatheris
the problem is - crafting and their version of PVP is hardly going to be central to the game is it?
if crafting isn't essential to gameplay at the start it is hardly going to be essential 6 months later so why bother at all? i will have to wait and see of course but it doesn't look good from here oh well, i've only been playing eq2 for a few months and am enjoying it and there is so much more to see and do that the wait won't exactly be painful
Why do you think this? Adding reasons for PvP and crafting is the easy part. Balance and game play of both is what needs the time and attention.
- - - - -
I think the biggest issue is that we have all become accustomed to having things like PvP and crafting at the launch of a new game. The lack of that is something that many will have trouble accommodating themselves too. I myself am a crafter but I do realize that it is not the core component of today’s games. Craters and PvP players still only amount to a small percentage of why most people play an MMO.
Change and innovation can only be a good thing for the future of the market.
i give up - leaving out large chunks of a game is hardly innovative is it?
i'm not even gonna be checking in on this soon to be flawed release - completely pointless
i wonder if there is a way to do an "ignore" on a game as well as a poster? Apparently there is as there seems to be very little activity in the forums for a game so close to release
it is sad for me as this had been the only game of the new crop i was interested in
I for one commend the company for telling us the 'truth'. Tell it how it is and there are no nasty suprises. I would prefer slick polished content from launch rather than have a Vanguard scenario where there are huge pieces of land empty, all parts of the game bugged and nothing working how it should. Basically one large construction site. (albeit it is a lot better now) . The idea that monster crafters cant start churning out god like items in the first week is appealing also.
Bring out a polished game and I am there regardless. Just as long as their promise of large future releases, crafting, pvp etc is delivered....and well.
In the beginning was really hyped about this game ( not any more), w/ all pple were talking (expecting) from it, but when game started getting some shape, i quickly realized the downside of this mmo., I totally agree that w/ all new stuff its gonna bring to mmo world its lacking major mmo attributes , and demands of pple. Maybe, and i say maybe,the game gonna be better down the road ( 00+ years later), but for now it is lets just say "incomplete" P.S. I would not buy a new car with future promises from a dealer to install missing doors in about 6 month, hehe sad but true... Btw its back on the floor in anticipation haha, im surprised its still hanging there
You're still saying the game's incomplete? That's your point of view. If there's no crafting at the beginning and just a bit PvP, the game is incomplete in your eyes?
Have you tried VG by any chance?! This had crafting and questing and all the stuff you'd expect in an mmo. And THAT game was incomplete.
My point is I rather see a game that is done right without, for instance, crafting than a game that includes crafting but sucks at every aspect of the playing experience. So still.....nope, the game isnt incomplete. Just see it like a small car that drives for decades instead of a big one that breaks down after a few miles
I wouldn't even bother anymore Bzrk...these people have dug themselves so far into their little hate-hole that nothing will convince them to pull out. Even if they did try the game at release they'd just find another reason to gripe because now they're pre-disposed to hating the game than giving the game a chance.
Basically, that's their choice, I don't condemn any of them for it..but I'm grateful they aren't gonna be bloating up the official forums with this bs whining
The game is incomplete. We were told there would be eight minions, then they drop it to four. At first you could choose any God and any class, now you can only choose 1 of 2 gods for each class. All done in the cause of "balance". How about the cause of, "Oh crap this isn't gonna work." I defended PE for a long time, saying they would follow through on their product. Look at the facts, PE has been cutting stuff from the game from Day 1, oh but in the name of game balance. I'm sure the game will be solid and will have a decent following, I however like more in my game then just PvE and pretty graphics. Oh but wait, sometime down the road they will add RvR, crafting etc. Sometime down the road could be a mile, or 1000 miles. Sorry, too many promises and "down the roads." I'm glad that PE is up front as one of the posters said, now I can focus on other things rather then a game that keep losing peices as it goes down the road.
there we go
you have summed things up perfectly - i'm just sorry that things have turned out this way
I would prefer this to the way VG released, with a lot of core content and features incomplete and buggy. Rather than trying to do everything at once, hoping it's all finished in time and releasing it all anyway because you said it would be done, I think it's much better to focus on finishing the core of a game, and then working on the other aspects. When release comes, go with what is finished rather than everything you were working on, whether it's done or not.
My hope is that players will eventually stop rewarding companies for releasing betas as finished products.
If Gods and Heroes releases with a lot of core content finished and bug free, players should be entertained enough that they can expand pvp and drop in crafting 4-6 months down the road.
Well I'll be honest here. I want the game to succeed. So I, of course, will state that no game is ever done at launch.
Really though, some one name me a game that was fully done at launch and that made it to the major leagues of MMOs...there just isn't one...WoW had to patch in Sword-smithing, Armor-smithing, something other smithing...They also had to patch in tons of talents. Also they had to patch in flight points to locations. They also had to patch in combat arenas, and PVP maps. They also had to patch many items for crafting, things that just didn't work for the player crafting the items...did any one really like WoW's crafting at launch? Cause I sure didn't. Just now has it got some what interesting.
And that is just WoW. I could name many other MMO's that had crafting/pvp/gear/talents/classes problems that they had to patch in, it just happens that way. I would rather them wait to make crafting something awesome, other than what WoW did...make something up quick, and hope it works. Then come to find out it doesn't, and never will. Then you have to patch in something new, and better to fix it.
GnH PVP will be great...who doesn't want to fight in the arena with all their minions ready to take on some other player? And crafting will be awesome as well. Come on who wouldn't want to make a wep that comes for legends and myths?...things you read about in high school history classes.
I understand that some people, must have it now! But for me, it can wait for them to do a good job...better than a half %$# job imo
"if crafting isn't essential to gameplay at the start it is hardly going to be essential 6 months later so why bother at all?"
Exactly.
I am a big time crafter in the MMOGs I play and if crafting isn't incorporated in the initial release and part of the planned economy and ladder of available items, then it's doomed to be pointless if added later.
mmo are a dying breed they just cost way too much to make now adays and they are usually riddled with bugs,
that bieng said sorry but this gaim will probebly bnot make it as well , there are alot of people who start a game by crafting those wont be here . most will fear the whole coming soon line since we have heard it before and never panned out.
I think this situation is more like other poster said they are broke they want to push something so they are stripping out whats really broke and hoping to polish rest.
Some lead and some follow I prefer to stand beside!
I would also prefer there to be a crafting system, though I'm not a crafter, I use crafted gear over looted. I think it's a major part of any mmorpg, since it's player driven and brings a game that much further from a single player rpg. It's sort of a disturbing trend lately with mmos bypassing crafting as if it were some annoying hurdle to get to the fun stuff like instanced zerg pvp and the big race to level and loot.
This is still the only game I can put my hopes into though, since the other upcoming mmos just wont cut it, or my friends wont be able to run. So if this one tanks, I guess it's back to SWG or just wait for a decent fps to get everyone back together again. It's a sad state pc gaming has landed in. I wont defend every aspect of this game, since I don't agree with the entire development of it, but I'm not going to just write it off and attack it every chance I get because I'm bitter over past gaming experiences. I'll play it as long as it's fun to me, and when it's no longer fun, I'll find something els. Pretty simple, at the least, I'll add my input on their main forums, give some ideas, and hope enough people contribute in the same way and the devs let it all sink in. Vain attempt probably, but it will be my 15 or so a month, and some game out there is going to get my sub.
I for one commend the company for telling us the 'truth'. Tell it how it is and there are no nasty suprises. I would prefer slick polished content from launch rather than have a Vanguard scenario where there are huge pieces of land empty, all parts of the game bugged and nothing working how it should. Basically one large construction site. (albeit it is a lot better now) . The idea that monster crafters cant start churning out god like items in the first week is appealing also. Bring out a polished game and I am there regardless. Just as long as their promise of large future releases, crafting, pvp etc is delivered....and well.
I for one commend the company for telling us the 'truth'. Tell it how it is and there are no nasty suprises. I would prefer slick polished content from launch rather than have a Vanguard scenario where there are huge pieces of land empty, all parts of the game bugged and nothing working how it should. Basically one large construction site. (albeit it is a lot better now) . The idea that monster crafters cant start churning out god like items in the first week is appealing also. Bring out a polished game and I am there regardless. Just as long as their promise of large future releases, crafting, pvp etc is delivered....and well.
Agreed
So let's use a reverse argument here. You people keep saying that no game ever launches complete and all of them have bugs. You think this game is going to launch perfect? You think PE delivering their first MMO will produce a shiney gem that will be perfect and they can immediatly start working on an expansion with all available resources. Doubt it, and with the cutbacks they did somewhat recently, I highly doubt it. Also what MMO has delivered on all its promises post release? Better question yet how long have they taken? I don't understand why you people worship PE so much. They hacked this game apart from the original concept basically going from a super awesome squad based system to a wimpy 4 pet system. Good Luck with that, I'm done on the subject, see you in WAR or AoC, I have a feeling some of you will be there.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
Again you skew the argument and leave out key words. I've noticed that in your posts. Somewhat recently, as in the end of last year, look it up. I met the some of the people making this game. Good guys and I'm sure the finished game will be great for those who like this type of thing. However the game has changed from when I joined up in '05 and started following it. I'm not an SoE hater and I do not beleive that SoE had anything to do with the changes but oddly they did start happening right after SoE teamed up to publish the game. I was one of the biggest supporters of this game, even when I found out about AoC (I'm a huge fan of Robert E Howard and his world of Hyboria) but still I stuck with them. After finding out about WAR (I play High Elf in Warhammer Fantasy and played the RP game) I still stuck with it. However I love RvR style PvP. GnH promises it, but not out the door. When they dropped down to 4 minions instead of 8 I decided it was time to wait for other games which suit my playstyle better. Then I post what I think about the game and get attacked by people in the GnH community. Another reason to leave maybe?
OK this is totally my last post....for today ;-)
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
I'm part of the GnH community. I haven't 'attacked' you yet. I even agree with some of your points. I'm sure your concerns are valid, but an argument goes both ways and when people disagree with you, you shouldn't take it soo hard as an attack. Your posts were combative to begin with, so you have to expect people will jump in and might get a little nasty. At the least, don't label a whole group of people to better suit your drama, I'm interested in the game whether or not it's up to par with my standards, not arguing back and forth with people who pretty much spew the same gripes and complaints about every game, nearly word for word.
PE doesnt want to rush things out like for example Vanguard ^^. Better to put just a few things into the game and make em real good and then add new things. The worst you can do is just to put everything half baked into the game and then release it.
Better finish first the animations, quests and the regular stuff and if thats done they can work on crafting, pvp etc... best decision ever IMO.
from what i've been able to determine from the gods and heroes website the game will be released with big sections of the game missing so why bother? i know i won't be purchasing now that i've found out crafting will be an add-on - at some future date isn't it time for game devs to stop making promises that usually go unfulfilled? what else is going to be missing and added (maybe) later?
See that's the thing..they are being honest and saying from the off that certain things will be implemented after the game goes gold.Now if you look at AOC they are saying things that i personally think wont be ready till after launch.
People say to me "but G&H wont have NVN-PVP-RVR when the game goes gold"..hello we know this and the devs have told us time again.People will follow a game with loyalty if the devs are open and honest.
If crafting is not so important for this game, why have it at all? Why not go the Guild Wars route and offer NPC stations where players can hand in components and receive items? Seem to work for them.
I agree with Somnlous a few posts back. The real major problem with adding crafting later is revamping the entire game while it has been launched for months. Balancing issues, economic issues, roleplay value if at all vs grind, mechanics of the crafting process, etc.
At least if you have a buggy system in place at launch, you may get complaints, but you have a framework to correct things. Not building an entire system from the ground up while the game is running.
I was excited for GnH, but I am more skeptical. I hope it does well, but if a game overpromises and underdelivers, we may be looking at a backlash of unhappy consumers and a vanguardian outcome - SOE takeover and rebuild.
No, but I'm not buying a car... I'm buying a -game-. A game, btw, that includes a mechanism for continuously adding content and features throughout its lifecycle. That's what MMO's are for. It's one of the -features- of this type of game.
G&H is one of the most interesting premises to come along in a long time. I personally can't wait to give it a shot.
Nope, it is about time they did it how P.E. is going about it. That is focusing their effort on the core game that everything else will be based off of and having it be solidest release to date.
With that accomplished, it will be much easier to fully concentrate on crafting and make that the most robust and innovative system that it can be. The same would hold true for any other future “add-ons”.
Also, P.E. is one of the (and I dare say “the”) most up front companies in the business. What they can’t do now, or want to make perfect for later and not give us a half assed product now, they tell us. There are no “promises”.
ummm.....would you buy a doorless car on the promise that you'll get the doors 6-12 months down the road?
Your analogy is a bit flawed. The essentials to the game are being worked on. It is the frills that won't be at release.
Maybe saying... "would you buy a car that lacks detailing, tinted windows, and chrome if they promise to trick out your car in 6 - 12 months." The answer is yes.
I am not even going to buy G&H, but I can use my head and see your trying to make bad comparisons to prove an incorrect point.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
This is a long thread so I'm not even going to attempt to quote what my responses are to, if you've read it all, you'll understand.
Plain and simple, would i buy a car without a door? well that all depends on what the cars purpose is for, if its a jeep wrangler for cruising down to the beach, than sure... I will break it down simple like now;
No Crafting; i too am rather disturbed and outraged by this, these are key components. But the average player will never achieve a crafting level higher than two thirds of the limit, especially in the first six month. Though i like the concept, i must be honest with myself, its not one of the key things i focus on in a mmo.
No PvP; Oh i swear the people getting most bent out of shape about this are the pricks who run around killing noobs thinking they are so cool, while the profile sites reinforce it but tallying up their kills. PvP is a good concept, but PvP upon release with a bunch of noobs and more coming everyday could simply be a marketing strategy. fact is fact, noobs that get kill constantly tend to quit.
Money is key, the game is made to make money. Vanguard came out with alot of cool ideas, i loved the concepts personally. However being unable to complete certain quests, world crashes, seemless world freezing, as well as many other glitches made the game not worth playing for me or my wife, $50 bucks SOE lost out on there, i doubt we were the only ones. So the concept of having the core part of the game run smoothly seems brilliant to me, despite the fact its lacking somewhat. Really, most mmo's are lacking...
FFXI for instance, had no real soloing possibilities, you could spend hours waiting for a group, sometimes days especially if you were not one of the primary classes, lets face it, dragoons and dark knight sound cool, but their the nerdy kid that always gets picked last. G&H has aimed to remove this time sap and allow us to actually play... very innovative to me. Oh, storyline, can you say Lord of the Rings... the movie storyline to me was lame, didn't want to see it in the veteran game series.
WoW, how is this game innovative? Its FFXI, EQ, and the original Warcraft games mixed into one with a crap interface and limited customization. I was a fan of Blizzard for a long time, but not after trying this game out briefly. So far however I've seen no claims from G&H about interface but customization sounds average to above average. never made it far enough to see a storyline.
EQ2, the hard drive to 70, and you could solo it, which meant every crap player could also make it to a high lvl with enough effort and claim he was better than you cause he had 4 lvl 70's. And once you made it to 70, your life was pointless without raids. And the main storyline? I never was sure what my goal was in this game but i bet that without a raid, i might as well forget it. the quests, oh my god, kill 20 of this that only spawn 5 per hour, give me a damn break. G&H seems to think that the game should have some direction and value, i tend to agree. the concept of being able to accomplish something without a raid seems valuable to me as well.
I am worried with this much soloability how many poor players with crap attitudes i'll have to deal with but overall it seems this game is trying to make a viable product piece by piece instead throwing us a bunch of pieces that don't mesh. Its worth a try, if it sucks, well by the time i realize that, something better should be out.
Comments
The only comment and potential drawback I see with adding crafting later is that it tends to introduce the need to completely revamp classes and re-balance if it isn't done right.
Normally, if crafting is introduced on release it is designed as part of the system; meaning that the optimum configuration for given character classes normally includes specific crafted item types and that is planned.
Introducing crafting after the fact can lead to all manner of balance issues because the classes and the mobs are designed to deal with characters which were built on the base character/mob dynamic the game released with.
Class balance issues are also much more extreme in games that add their PvP element after release, because those elements have not been fully tested at release. That means adjustments will have to be made to accommodate PvP. Many players absolutely despise seeing their character's design mucked with and resent it deeply, and often that loathing is reflected in subscriptions.
A perfect example of this is what happened directly following the PvP and enhancement changes made in CoH. Changes were made across the board to individual power sets as well as overall powers (such as travel power suppression and Enhancement Diversification) which deeply affected players and resulted in many subscription cancellations. I think many players would agree that the affect on CoV was less noticeable because the classes in CoV were designed with Enhancement Diversification (ED) and the PvP changes in mind.
While CoH is still very enjoyable, it would be an accurate statement to say that it is not the same game experience it was on release. Many subscribers would say that it has improved, while many others would state the opposite and have made that statement by un-subscribing.
How that will affect Gods and Heroes remains to be seen.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
Car doors are part of the core product. So no, I would not. But I would buy a car and add the DVD player and X-Box later on though.
Release it sooner? The game has been in development just as long as any other (and maybe longer) standard MMO available today. To concentrate that time on the core game can only be a good thing. This has always been the game plan. As far back as i am able to look, there was never talk of having full PvP or crafting in at release. It has been a new approach and concept from day 1.
Sure, as with any software based product, there will always be bugs found after release when you have a huge amount of eyes looking at the product. That is not in debate here. The effort is to hopefully make it the most bug free/playable game MMORPG launch to date. I still say that if this works, we will see more companies take this route with future games as well.
As for money, at some point that will factor in. For P.E., I think they are still in a very comfortable zone at this point however. But as they have the product that they set out to make in hand, why not release it?
i give up - leaving out large chunks of a game is hardly innovative is it?
i'm not even gonna be checking in on this soon to be flawed release - completely pointless
i wonder if there is a way to do an "ignore" on a game as well as a poster? Apparently there is as there seems to be very little activity in the forums for a game so close to release
it is sad for me as this had been the only game of the new crop i was interested in
I for one commend the company for telling us the 'truth'. Tell it how it is and there are no nasty suprises. I would prefer slick polished content from launch rather than have a Vanguard scenario where there are huge pieces of land empty, all parts of the game bugged and nothing working how it should. Basically one large construction site. (albeit it is a lot better now) . The idea that monster crafters cant start churning out god like items in the first week is appealing also.
Bring out a polished game and I am there regardless. Just as long as their promise of large future releases, crafting, pvp etc is delivered....and well.
Have you tried VG by any chance?! This had crafting and questing and all the stuff you'd expect in an mmo. And THAT game was incomplete.
My point is I rather see a game that is done right without, for instance, crafting than a game that includes crafting but sucks at every aspect of the playing experience. So still.....nope, the game isnt incomplete. Just see it like a small car that drives for decades instead of a big one that breaks down after a few miles
I wouldn't even bother anymore Bzrk...these people have dug themselves so far into their little hate-hole that nothing will convince them to pull out. Even if they did try the game at release they'd just find another reason to gripe because now they're pre-disposed to hating the game than giving the game a chance.
Basically, that's their choice, I don't condemn any of them for it..but I'm grateful they aren't gonna be bloating up the official forums with this bs whining
you have summed things up perfectly - i'm just sorry that things have turned out this way
i guess it is EQ2 for a while yet
Ok enjoy you're boring game you won't be missed.
I would prefer this to the way VG released, with a lot of core content and features incomplete and buggy. Rather than trying to do everything at once, hoping it's all finished in time and releasing it all anyway because you said it would be done, I think it's much better to focus on finishing the core of a game, and then working on the other aspects. When release comes, go with what is finished rather than everything you were working on, whether it's done or not.
My hope is that players will eventually stop rewarding companies for releasing betas as finished products.
If Gods and Heroes releases with a lot of core content finished and bug free, players should be entertained enough that they can expand pvp and drop in crafting 4-6 months down the road.
Obviously you're not a golfer.
is any mmo ever complete?
Well I'll be honest here. I want the game to succeed. So I, of course, will state that no game is ever done at launch.
Really though, some one name me a game that was fully done at launch and that made it to the major leagues of MMOs...there just isn't one...WoW had to patch in Sword-smithing, Armor-smithing, something other smithing...They also had to patch in tons of talents. Also they had to patch in flight points to locations. They also had to patch in combat arenas, and PVP maps. They also had to patch many items for crafting, things that just didn't work for the player crafting the items...did any one really like WoW's crafting at launch? Cause I sure didn't. Just now has it got some what interesting.
And that is just WoW. I could name many other MMO's that had crafting/pvp/gear/talents/classes problems that they had to patch in, it just happens that way. I would rather them wait to make crafting something awesome, other than what WoW did...make something up quick, and hope it works. Then come to find out it doesn't, and never will. Then you have to patch in something new, and better to fix it.
GnH PVP will be great...who doesn't want to fight in the arena with all their minions ready to take on some other player? And crafting will be awesome as well. Come on who wouldn't want to make a wep that comes for legends and myths?...things you read about in high school history classes.
I understand that some people, must have it now! But for me, it can wait for them to do a good job...better than a half %$# job imo
-Phorsoth-
hehe
"if crafting isn't essential to gameplay at the start it is hardly going to be essential 6 months later so why bother at all?"
Exactly.
I am a big time crafter in the MMOGs I play and if crafting isn't incorporated in the initial release and part of the planned economy and ladder of available items, then it's doomed to be pointless if added later.
mmo are a dying breed they just cost way too much to make now adays and they are usually riddled with bugs,
that bieng said sorry but this gaim will probebly bnot make it as well , there are alot of people who start a game by crafting those wont be here . most will fear the whole coming soon line since we have heard it before and never panned out.
I think this situation is more like other poster said they are broke they want to push something so they are stripping out whats really broke and hoping to polish rest.
Some lead and some follow I prefer to stand beside!
I would also prefer there to be a crafting system, though I'm not a crafter, I use crafted gear over looted. I think it's a major part of any mmorpg, since it's player driven and brings a game that much further from a single player rpg. It's sort of a disturbing trend lately with mmos bypassing crafting as if it were some annoying hurdle to get to the fun stuff like instanced zerg pvp and the big race to level and loot.
This is still the only game I can put my hopes into though, since the other upcoming mmos just wont cut it, or my friends wont be able to run. So if this one tanks, I guess it's back to SWG or just wait for a decent fps to get everyone back together again. It's a sad state pc gaming has landed in. I wont defend every aspect of this game, since I don't agree with the entire development of it, but I'm not going to just write it off and attack it every chance I get because I'm bitter over past gaming experiences. I'll play it as long as it's fun to me, and when it's no longer fun, I'll find something els. Pretty simple, at the least, I'll add my input on their main forums, give some ideas, and hope enough people contribute in the same way and the devs let it all sink in. Vain attempt probably, but it will be my 15 or so a month, and some game out there is going to get my sub.
Never give up and never surrender!
Agreed
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Agreed
So let's use a reverse argument here. You people keep saying that no game ever launches complete and all of them have bugs. You think this game is going to launch perfect? You think PE delivering their first MMO will produce a shiney gem that will be perfect and they can immediatly start working on an expansion with all available resources. Doubt it, and with the cutbacks they did somewhat recently, I highly doubt it. Also what MMO has delivered on all its promises post release? Better question yet how long have they taken? I don't understand why you people worship PE so much. They hacked this game apart from the original concept basically going from a super awesome squad based system to a wimpy 4 pet system. Good Luck with that, I'm done on the subject, see you in WAR or AoC, I have a feeling some of you will be there.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
I'm still a bit confused here. What cutbacks did they do recently?
LOL
Again you skew the argument and leave out key words. I've noticed that in your posts. Somewhat recently, as in the end of last year, look it up. I met the some of the people making this game. Good guys and I'm sure the finished game will be great for those who like this type of thing. However the game has changed from when I joined up in '05 and started following it. I'm not an SoE hater and I do not beleive that SoE had anything to do with the changes but oddly they did start happening right after SoE teamed up to publish the game. I was one of the biggest supporters of this game, even when I found out about AoC (I'm a huge fan of Robert E Howard and his world of Hyboria) but still I stuck with them. After finding out about WAR (I play High Elf in Warhammer Fantasy and played the RP game) I still stuck with it. However I love RvR style PvP. GnH promises it, but not out the door. When they dropped down to 4 minions instead of 8 I decided it was time to wait for other games which suit my playstyle better. Then I post what I think about the game and get attacked by people in the GnH community. Another reason to leave maybe?
OK this is totally my last post....for today ;-)
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
I'm part of the GnH community. I haven't 'attacked' you yet. I even agree with some of your points. I'm sure your concerns are valid, but an argument goes both ways and when people disagree with you, you shouldn't take it soo hard as an attack. Your posts were combative to begin with, so you have to expect people will jump in and might get a little nasty. At the least, don't label a whole group of people to better suit your drama, I'm interested in the game whether or not it's up to par with my standards, not arguing back and forth with people who pretty much spew the same gripes and complaints about every game, nearly word for word.
Never give up and never surrender!
Unfinished ? Well a MMO is never finished.
PE doesnt want to rush things out like for example Vanguard ^^. Better to put just a few things into the game and make em real good and then add new things. The worst you can do is just to put everything half baked into the game and then release it.
Better finish first the animations, quests and the regular stuff and if thats done they can work on crafting, pvp etc... best decision ever IMO.
People say to me "but G&H wont have NVN-PVP-RVR when the game goes gold"..hello we know this and the devs have told us time again.People will follow a game with loyalty if the devs are open and honest.
Waiting on WAR..Going to play G&H....
If crafting is not so important for this game, why have it at all? Why not go the Guild Wars route and offer NPC stations where players can hand in components and receive items? Seem to work for them.
I agree with Somnlous a few posts back. The real major problem with adding crafting later is revamping the entire game while it has been launched for months. Balancing issues, economic issues, roleplay value if at all vs grind, mechanics of the crafting process, etc.
At least if you have a buggy system in place at launch, you may get complaints, but you have a framework to correct things. Not building an entire system from the ground up while the game is running.
I was excited for GnH, but I am more skeptical. I hope it does well, but if a game overpromises and underdelivers, we may be looking at a backlash of unhappy consumers and a vanguardian outcome - SOE takeover and rebuild.
Hm, which MMO is "complete" when its released? Almost every MMO starts more or less "basic".
No, but I'm not buying a car... I'm buying a -game-. A game, btw, that includes a mechanism for continuously adding content and features throughout its lifecycle. That's what MMO's are for. It's one of the -features- of this type of game.
G&H is one of the most interesting premises to come along in a long time. I personally can't wait to give it a shot.
ummm.....would you buy a doorless car on the promise that you'll get the doors 6-12 months down the road?
Your analogy is a bit flawed. The essentials to the game are being worked on. It is the frills that won't be at release.Maybe saying... "would you buy a car that lacks detailing, tinted windows, and chrome if they promise to trick out your car in 6 - 12 months." The answer is yes.
I am not even going to buy G&H, but I can use my head and see your trying to make bad comparisons to prove an incorrect point.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
This is a long thread so I'm not even going to attempt to quote what my responses are to, if you've read it all, you'll understand.
Plain and simple, would i buy a car without a door? well that all depends on what the cars purpose is for, if its a jeep wrangler for cruising down to the beach, than sure... I will break it down simple like now;
No Crafting; i too am rather disturbed and outraged by this, these are key components. But the average player will never achieve a crafting level higher than two thirds of the limit, especially in the first six month. Though i like the concept, i must be honest with myself, its not one of the key things i focus on in a mmo.
No PvP; Oh i swear the people getting most bent out of shape about this are the pricks who run around killing noobs thinking they are so cool, while the profile sites reinforce it but tallying up their kills. PvP is a good concept, but PvP upon release with a bunch of noobs and more coming everyday could simply be a marketing strategy. fact is fact, noobs that get kill constantly tend to quit.
Money is key, the game is made to make money. Vanguard came out with alot of cool ideas, i loved the concepts personally. However being unable to complete certain quests, world crashes, seemless world freezing, as well as many other glitches made the game not worth playing for me or my wife, $50 bucks SOE lost out on there, i doubt we were the only ones. So the concept of having the core part of the game run smoothly seems brilliant to me, despite the fact its lacking somewhat. Really, most mmo's are lacking...
FFXI for instance, had no real soloing possibilities, you could spend hours waiting for a group, sometimes days especially if you were not one of the primary classes, lets face it, dragoons and dark knight sound cool, but their the nerdy kid that always gets picked last. G&H has aimed to remove this time sap and allow us to actually play... very innovative to me. Oh, storyline, can you say Lord of the Rings... the movie storyline to me was lame, didn't want to see it in the veteran game series.
WoW, how is this game innovative? Its FFXI, EQ, and the original Warcraft games mixed into one with a crap interface and limited customization. I was a fan of Blizzard for a long time, but not after trying this game out briefly. So far however I've seen no claims from G&H about interface but customization sounds average to above average. never made it far enough to see a storyline.
EQ2, the hard drive to 70, and you could solo it, which meant every crap player could also make it to a high lvl with enough effort and claim he was better than you cause he had 4 lvl 70's. And once you made it to 70, your life was pointless without raids. And the main storyline? I never was sure what my goal was in this game but i bet that without a raid, i might as well forget it. the quests, oh my god, kill 20 of this that only spawn 5 per hour, give me a damn break. G&H seems to think that the game should have some direction and value, i tend to agree. the concept of being able to accomplish something without a raid seems valuable to me as well.
I am worried with this much soloability how many poor players with crap attitudes i'll have to deal with but overall it seems this game is trying to make a viable product piece by piece instead throwing us a bunch of pieces that don't mesh. Its worth a try, if it sucks, well by the time i realize that, something better should be out.
You could argue that this game will be incomplete at launch but, what they promise sounds great.
A cool craft system
RvR or Nation vs Nation
Gladiator fights and even tournaments (ladders)
and more I dont even know