I'm just waiting for the day when games have AI that evolves on its own. The AI trying to learn what the player is doing and trying to counter that. Then we will really have some challenging games.
Can anyone say "Westworld, where absolutely nothing can possibly go worng!" sic.
Guildwars is good if you want skill instead of time. Once you get to level 20. the player with the right build wins and it takes strategy to make a good build
It takes mathcraft, common sense, and trial and error in my opinion. Getting rid of all basic movement while in combat does not increase the strategy, most the strategy should come from what you expect your opponent will do. When you limit what they can do that drastically it turns it from a game of Go into a game of checkers to sum things up.
You're completely understandable. What you have you understand is that MMO's aren't really ever talent based, and the only one I can think of that is going to exist that might require talent is Darkfall. If you are after the better player winning then play FPS or RTS, trust me.
almost every mmo out there requires alot of time to be good at the game. for example in wow you have to raid a whole bunch to get the best armor to be the best. There is a difference between having fun, being the best, and having good gear. Although being the best entails having good gear, it does not always equal having fun. But, one can certainly have good (not the best) gear and have fun without being the best. World of Warcraft is famous (or is it infamous?) for allowing a multitude of gamers to have good gear and compete in PvP and PvE. Also, the gear I mention, which is good, does not take a lot of take to acquire. The five mans in the burning crusade, for example, are relatively fast and produce some great gear for the casual. I am casual. My priest has near raiding quality gear. now where is the skill or talent in that? You are assuming here that raiding is just a time sink. Although many events are scripted, players must be on the ball for quite some time to get raid instances on farm status. Raiding guilds fail numerous times before getting an instance down. What does that lead to? Raiders have the skill to follow directions, become team players, and participate in the end game. Also, a raid leader must have talent in order to convince a bunch of gamers to follow his leadership. i dont want to waste 6 hours of my life playing a computer game just to be better than someone else on it. If you think this is how MMORPGs are constructed you will never have fun. The players who I meet who aren't raiders still enjoy the game. These players (myself included) enjoy playing the game rather than crunching numbers and spending hours upon hours getting everyone geared up for the next instance. It is a persistant world, not a persistant raid. what if you are truly better? what if you have better gaming skills or just have a talent for it? why cant this be the same on mmo's? The same as what? Other videogames? I would love to see you play Street Fighter (a game with no gear) against someone who plays it hours upon hours a day. Skill is usually gained from experience. Experience takes time. More time more experience more skill kick your butt with chung li, etc. you ever play a game for awhile than you challange your friend at it who never played it before but he beats you anyway? that is talent. This statement makes absolutely no sense. I'll give you a situation exactly like the one you described, actually. I rented Mortal Kombat 4. My roommate played it while I was at work for an hour or two. When I got home he challenged me. I won. Why? Well, he had never played the series before and I knew Sub-Zero's moves. Why? Because I spent more TIME playing the game than he did. Regardless, some sort of information or abilities to play games from experience (which takes time) makes you good. we need mmo's that allows you to use this talent and to build up skill not levels. Skill-based still takes time. It doesn't matter how talented you are. You go into the game as a novice and come out a veteran. It doesn't happen because you are somehow mystically talented at mashing buttons. I would really like to see how you would make this system work. Talent doesn't just fall out of the sky. I will admit some people are gifted, but time and experience always trump someone who is just adept at playing games. we need to improve ourselves by actually doin these abilities rather than just worryin about levelin up. isnt this how the real world works? why not imply this to mmo's? I am not sure what you mean. We need to improve ourselves? MMORPGs are not a self-help game. MMOs are supposedly to be dramatically different from real life. I don't want to recreate the feeling of working for years at a job to get a promotion at work. Plus, in real life everything is based on experience and the time you spend. Have to go through first grade to get to second.
You're completely understandable. What you have you understand is that MMO's aren't really ever talent based, and the only one I can think of that is going to exist that might require talent is Darkfall. If you are after the better player winning then play FPS or RTS, trust me.
Too bad the creators and developers of Darkfall are not talented enough to actually make a video game.
Unfortunately TIME is what MMO's are all about, i think you should consider FPS or RTS games.
That pretty much sums up the best way to answer this problem.
Except for the fact that time spent playing a video game improves your performance. I mean, it isn't like Counter-Strike is just this game in which players are magically talented or not. Really good players spend a lot of time learning the guns, maps, and way the physics work.
*I can beat all AI, only chess AI I have never beaten.
Ok. Now I don't know if you're referring to the actual computer intelligence itself or whether you're actually really meaning any kind of computer opponent you've played has been a doddle. If the latter, then I'm thinking you've not played very many games.
*Mmorpgs not being challenging. Twitch-wise correct. Non-twitch-wise. Ok, start a level 1. Run along an area which is full of say level 10 mobs. Now, kill them all. What? you can't. Extreme example, but its basically pointing out that you set your challenge-level. You make it easy for yourself, then of course it is going to be easy. Instances too easy? Ok, don't go as a full-group. Raiding too easy? Ok you lead the raid. Pvp too easy? I'm guessing you must be top. What? the other players have better items so obviously you're not. What kind of copout is that?
Want to know why the AI is so bad in say WoW? You have to kill thousands of mobs to upp your level. You really going to appreciate it if every mob you fight you have a 50-50 chance of dieing or surviving? Person dies 30 times in an hour trying to get to the next level. Person quits.
Some of the comments in this thread?... *I can beat all AI, only chess AI I have never beaten. Ok. Now I don't know if you're referring to the actual computer intelligence itself or whether you're actually really meaning any kind of computer opponent you've played has been a doddle. If the latter, then I'm thinking you've not played very many games. *Mmorpgs not being challenging.
Twitch-wise correct. Non-twitch-wise. Ok, start a level 1. Run along an area which is full of say level 10 mobs. Now, kill them all. What? you can't. Extreme example, but its basically pointing out that you set your challenge-level. You make it easy for yourself, then of course it is going to be easy. Instances too easy? Ok, don't go as a full-group. Raiding too easy? Ok you lead the raid. Pvp too easy? I'm guessing you must be top. What? the other players have better items so obviously you're not. What kind of copout is that? Want to know why the AI is so bad in say WoW?
You have to kill thousands of mobs to upp your level. You really going to appreciate it if every mob you fight you have a 50-50 chance of dieing or surviving? Person dies 30 times in an hour trying to get to the next level. Person quits.
Right. If all mobs were elites we would be fighting green cons and paging the GMs because leveling was too hard.
I used to play a mud that where levels and gear helped, but skill was still required. A skilled player could take on 3 players of the same level. Or a naked skilled player could beat a well geared player and take all his gear.
So if a mud can do it, a MMO should be able to do it.
Some of the comments in this thread?... *I can beat all AI, only chess AI I have never beaten. Ok. Now I don't know if you're referring to the actual computer intelligence itself or whether you're actually really meaning any kind of computer opponent you've played has been a doddle. If the latter, then I'm thinking you've not played very many games. *Mmorpgs not being challenging.
Twitch-wise correct. Non-twitch-wise. Ok, start a level 1. Run along an area which is full of say level 10 mobs. Now, kill them all. What? you can't. Extreme example, but its basically pointing out that you set your challenge-level. You make it easy for yourself, then of course it is going to be easy. Instances too easy? Ok, don't go as a full-group. Raiding too easy? Ok you lead the raid. Pvp too easy? I'm guessing you must be top. What? the other players have better items so obviously you're not. What kind of copout is that? Want to know why the AI is so bad in say WoW?
You have to kill thousands of mobs to upp your level. You really going to appreciate it if every mob you fight you have a 50-50 chance of dieing or surviving? Person dies 30 times in an hour trying to get to the next level. Person quits.
You have bad arguements. A 1 vs a level 10 is not hard because the AI is better it is only harder because the monster is not on equal terms with the player, or you could say magically stronger which breaks immersion for me. The nature of modern MMORPG's limits how good you can be through levels and gear. In an FPS or an RTS or fighting game or most any game except ones that involve RPG the player is mostly unlimited by how good they can become. That is why non-RPG games actually have pro-leagues. If player skill mattered more in MMORPG's then there would be no need for insane amounts of XP to level or even very many levels. If it had challenging AI it would take just as long probably for some people and be a hell of a lot more fun. This is why I avoid MMORPG's right now, because they require very little skill. Good players will become better with time however, in an MMORPG the difference between a good player and a crap player is very narrow because it does almost all of the combat for you. If you think good AI is frustrating then never play anything but, MMORPG's because sometimes very rarely other types of games will have decent AI and part of the fun is learning from your mistakes and overcoming obstacles.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Astropuyo has good point there and you also are refferring to real world and lets say 1vs1 fight.. whos going to win the guy with a machine gun or the guy with a knife.. gear means something in real world too. I personaly dont like WoW either but thats how it is.. check out Age of Conan! They say skill matters there and gear has less impact, but who knows.
If the guy with the machine gun is asleep, and the guy with the knife is sneaky enough, the guy with the knife will win.
Didn't see this til llater,but actually bahamut is exactly right.The cheat bots are scripted programs that other than LAG,wich they also address are unbeatable.They have 100% accuracy besides[lag],and target you as soon as you come into view.There is nothing other than lag that would allow you to see them faster or even have a chance at shooting them before you are already dead.The reason you don't know this is because you are referring only to the unmanned bots that are used in mmo's for farming.FPS bots are not unmanned.They are manned by a player who has an illegal script/.ini file loaded that sorta hacks the files ,adds more code. The reason I don't know... Guy I've been gaming online since 1993. I have never ever encountered a bot scrip that covered aim in an FPS. Not that I haven't "heard" of them, as I have been called an "aimbotter" in almost every FPS game I've played, though I have never met one. AI can be set to be unbeatable in any game ,if the designers so wished it.This is why AI scripting is so hard,because finding that fine line while keeping it fun and challenging is hard.The AI has to be so VERSATILE that it can react to any style of gameplay.I don't see that EVER being done.The lines of code would have to be HUGE for each scenario. AI could not be set to unbeatable in any game... Where do you kids get your info, the AI isn't what would beat you but rather the Hack you are giving the NPC being played against. I would love to see someone "script" AI where it outthinks and maneuvers me, not just has an autolock and can see through the map.
Originally posted by nomadian
Some of the comments in this thread?... *I can beat all AI, only chess AI I have never beaten. Ok. Now I don't know if you're referring to the actual computer intelligence itself or whether you're actually really meaning any kind of computer opponent you've played has been a doddle. If the latter, then I'm thinking you've not played very many games. I've played thousands, hundreds online. I've never met a decent competent computer opponent, I'm speaking from both an AI perspective and gameplay perspective. *Mmorpgs not being challenging.
Twitch-wise correct. Non-twitch-wise. Ok, start a level 1. Run along an area which is full of say level 10 mobs. Now, kill them all. What? you can't. Extreme example, but its basically pointing out that you set your challenge-level. You make it easy for yourself, then of course it is going to be easy. Instances too easy? Ok, don't go as a full-group. Raiding too easy? Ok you lead the raid. Pvp too easy? I'm guessing you must be top. What? the other players have better items so obviously you're not. What kind of copout is that? When I was testing LOTRO out, I could beat every single 8 person designed "Party Quest" level 12 - 20 with a level 12 solo, by finding ways to glitch the AI. AI is simple at best right now, being able to outwork or outthink it isn't very hard. Want to know why the AI is so bad in say WoW?
You have to kill thousands of mobs to upp your level. You really going to appreciate it if every mob you fight you have a 50-50 chance of dieing or surviving? Person dies 30 times in an hour trying to get to the next level. Person quits. Again, Ai doesn't think, it doesn't move, it gets an auto target, autolock with a cushion for our benefit. Saying a computer that is privy to my exact location at all times, and can shoot directly there every time would beat me is an asinine point, of course I'd lose. To me however that isn't AI, it's scripted knowledge with a variable set for failure.
Originally posted by randomt
Bots were a problem in the original online game scene, such as in quake and the like. Eventually all sorts of methods were invented to try to verify the client and such, so its less of a problem these days... How it worked was basically the game played itself, while you watched, or things like assisted aiming (the bot always targetted the right spot, you just moved around). Played Quake, up to 3, Played original Half Life + the mod Opera, Played original Counter Strike, Played AVP 1 & 2, Played America's Army year it came out, Played Tribes 1&2, Played Pariah, Played GunZ, Played Soldner, Played BF2, Played... played... played...
Have never run into people I assumed were aim botting. Health hacks sure, Armor hacks sure, Wall hacks sure, Aim hacks no. I am good, not I think I'm good, but a good player at any FPS I actually put time into. I have only put time into two, was arguably the best player wordwide in one, and arguably top 5 worldwide in another. So when I say AI isn't an issue, and you guys say people were using aim scripts in games I played then I think my point is proven, as I never took issue, in fact never even noticed.
basically an mmorpg is like bodybuilding to fight ya know. Even in real life a guy who spends more time studying is going to do better on test than you are.
A 1 vs a level 10 is not hard because the AI is better it is only harder because the monster is not on equal terms with the player, or you could say magically stronger which breaks immersion for me.
It was an extreme case, basically what I'm trying to convey is you can have different numbers of mobs, you can have different levels of mobs, you can have mobs with a load of different abilities which may all add up to a challenging situation. The way you're thinking though is pure twitch-based as the only form of challenge. (If hand-eye was the only challenge in the world, wouldn't life be easy.)
Anyway, picking up another point from the above quote where you say mobs are 'magically stronger', I have to admit that is one of my grievances of mmorpgs. In WoW because it was generally an easy game I would get bored and try solo reds. The problem with that was not that I wasn't able but hit-rate against that mob was considerably reduced and resists were pumped up making it completely inefficient to do so. So higher levelled mobs being 'magically stronger' I see as a completely artificial and annoying system.
I've played thousands, hundreds online. I've never met a decent competent computer opponent, I'm speaking from both an AI perspective and gameplay perspective.
From an AI perspective you are right computers don't have the ability to think, so can only either permutate possibilities or follow procedures its been programmed to do. However, to say you've never had a hard computer opponent tells me you repertoire of games is possibly limited. I note you say 'online' and I also note you mention a lot of fps'. I know some of the AI of fps' I've played have been generally poor, I'm not sure if fps' are a challenging area for AI. So I maybe understand where you're coming from with that.
However, there are a number of other games where a computer can be a challenge. You say only chess can be an example. But I give you this example: Pong. Basically it can be programmed to have a computer opponent have its paddle automatically adjust to where the ball is. Its relatively simple programming and the result is with some additional speed the computer opponent inevitably winning. Now most Pongs aren't designed like this especially as they're meant to give the player a chance. But, they CAN be designed like that. Explain how you would beat a computer opponent like that, also bearing in mind with a similar kind of system this can be applied to other games.(and is)
MMO's will never have a game in which talent and skill beats time spent, because companies are there to make money, and time spent is what generates revenues for them. Time is what every player has, but talent/skill is not. So for a company out to make money, it has to shoot for a large audience.
Another thing is, talent/skill may actually drive away players who are less talented/skilled, because it will create elitism in a MMO. No one enjoys losing all the time in any game, especially in a pvp-based game. So a talent/skill based game is good for a single-player game, but bad for a MMO that's trying to broaden its appeal to the mass.
Unfortunately TIME is what MMO's are all about, i think you should consider FPS or RTS games.
I can name many current quality MMORPGs or ones in development where time isn't as much of a factor in your success as your overall skill and ability. Those are the types of MMORPGs that I tend to go for.
The game companies want you to keep paying per month.
The game companies need to string you along month after month by preventing you from getting where you want to be in the game.
In games based on skill the game company needs to have exciting end game content or an interesting profession to keep you around or you will get bored and leave.
Can you think of exciting content that would get you to play for months and months and months? And not just you but someone who is not like you in any way? The game company wants their money too.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
You pay per month. The game companies want you to keep paying per month. The game companies need to string you along month after month by preventing you from getting where you want to be in the game. In games based on skill the game company needs to have exciting end game content or an interesting profession to keep you around or you will get bored and leave. Can you think of exciting content that would get you to play for months and months and months? And not just you but someone who is not like you in any way? The game company wants their money too.
Yes, companies do want to string the player along and force them to grind more and level more so the numbers keep rolling in. A particular MMO that you have all heard of is notorious for this - Everquest. Im not saying outright its a bad game, but the mere fact of the terrible grind in the game is the testament to how the companies want to keep taking money from your pocket every month.
But your second part (in yellow) is totally wrong. If a game is based on skill the game relies on GAMEPLAY to keep the user interested. If what you say is true then 95% of video games released cant keep people interested, which is obviously completely bs. Your totally debunking the whole purpose of games, it is usually the gameplay that comes first and then the content. Gameplay is what gamers want and crave and is what is truly fun, content is just something that builds upon that. Only MMO's use the strategy of adding more content to a game where gameplay doesnt count and rather pVe/grinding/gear based like WoW and EQ to some extent use that strategy. But by no means would I get bored of playing Dynasty Warriors just cause they dont have 100 characters or 100 stages, or stop playing Counterstrike cause they dont have all the weapons I want.
AC kept me on it for about 2 years and the game was based more on skill (both player wise and character wise) rather than time invested. Ask anyone who played AC and 90% of them would probably say its the best MMO they have ever played IMHO. DAOC was more of a button masher but it did have some skill involved and great PvP to boot, second only to AC of course.
Dynasty Warriors and Counterstrike are not MMORPGs and you speak of DaoC and AC as if you stopped playing them...
Please provide us with a complete list of great GAMEPLAY games you once played that you have not played in the past month, no don't bother, I bet it is very long.
I will repeat it "In games based on skill the game company needs to have exciting end game content or an interesting profession to keep you around or you will get bored and leave."
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
almost every mmo out there requires alot of time to be good at the game. for example in wow you have to raid a whole bunch to get the best armor to be the best. now where is the skill or talent in that? i dont want to waste 6 hours of my life playing a computer game just to be better than someone else on it. what if you are truly better? what if you have better gaming skills or just have a talent for it? why cant this be the same on mmo's? you ever play a game for awhile than you challange your friend at it who never played it before but he beats you anyway? that is talent. we need mmo's that allows you to use this talent and to build up skill not levels. we need to improve ourselves by actually doin these abilities rather than just worryin about levelin up. isnt this how the real world works? why not imply this to mmo's?
Many MMOs nowdays support only the time investment, nothing else.
If you take WoW for example. When you make your first character, the only thing you can do is to level up......invest time.
This sounds so weird, but most players today think thats the only way it can be? Why have a game that also support skill or clever ways to come up with solutions for problems?
Comments
It's a movie by the way, pretty good one too.
Guildwars is good if you want skill instead of time. Once you get to level 20. the player with the right build wins and it takes strategy to make a good build
It takes mathcraft, common sense, and trial and error in my opinion. Getting rid of all basic movement while in combat does not increase the strategy, most the strategy should come from what you expect your opponent will do. When you limit what they can do that drastically it turns it from a game of Go into a game of checkers to sum things up.
That pretty much sums up the best way to answer this problem.
im sorry i cannot get my point across with the title of this post. i will post a new one once i get all my thoughts organize and understandable.
You're completely understandable. What you have you understand is that MMO's aren't really ever talent based, and the only one I can think of that is going to exist that might require talent is Darkfall. If you are after the better player winning then play FPS or RTS, trust me.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Too bad the creators and developers of Darkfall are not talented enough to actually make a video game.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
That pretty much sums up the best way to answer this problem.
Except for the fact that time spent playing a video game improves your performance. I mean, it isn't like Counter-Strike is just this game in which players are magically talented or not. Really good players spend a lot of time learning the guns, maps, and way the physics work.
Time = skill.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Some of the comments in this thread?...
*I can beat all AI, only chess AI I have never beaten.
Ok. Now I don't know if you're referring to the actual computer intelligence itself or whether you're actually really meaning any kind of computer opponent you've played has been a doddle. If the latter, then I'm thinking you've not played very many games.
*Mmorpgs not being challenging.
Twitch-wise correct. Non-twitch-wise. Ok, start a level 1. Run along an area which is full of say level 10 mobs. Now, kill them all. What? you can't. Extreme example, but its basically pointing out that you set your challenge-level. You make it easy for yourself, then of course it is going to be easy. Instances too easy? Ok, don't go as a full-group. Raiding too easy? Ok you lead the raid. Pvp too easy? I'm guessing you must be top. What? the other players have better items so obviously you're not. What kind of copout is that?
Want to know why the AI is so bad in say WoW?
You have to kill thousands of mobs to upp your level. You really going to appreciate it if every mob you fight you have a 50-50 chance of dieing or surviving? Person dies 30 times in an hour trying to get to the next level. Person quits.
Right. If all mobs were elites we would be fighting green cons and paging the GMs because leveling was too hard.
If I wanted that crapfest I would play EverQuest.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
I used to play a mud that where levels and gear helped, but skill was still required. A skilled player could take on 3 players of the same level. Or a naked skilled player could beat a well geared player and take all his gear.
So if a mud can do it, a MMO should be able to do it.
You have bad arguements. A 1 vs a level 10 is not hard because the AI is better it is only harder because the monster is not on equal terms with the player, or you could say magically stronger which breaks immersion for me. The nature of modern MMORPG's limits how good you can be through levels and gear. In an FPS or an RTS or fighting game or most any game except ones that involve RPG the player is mostly unlimited by how good they can become. That is why non-RPG games actually have pro-leagues. If player skill mattered more in MMORPG's then there would be no need for insane amounts of XP to level or even very many levels. If it had challenging AI it would take just as long probably for some people and be a hell of a lot more fun. This is why I avoid MMORPG's right now, because they require very little skill. Good players will become better with time however, in an MMORPG the difference between a good player and a crap player is very narrow because it does almost all of the combat for you. If you think good AI is frustrating then never play anything but, MMORPG's because sometimes very rarely other types of games will have decent AI and part of the fun is learning from your mistakes and overcoming obstacles.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
Is that the answer you expected?
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
basically an mmorpg is like bodybuilding to fight ya know. Even in real life a guy who spends more time studying is going to do better on test than you are.
Anyway, picking up another point from the above quote where you say mobs are 'magically stronger', I have to admit that is one of my grievances of mmorpgs. In WoW because it was generally an easy game I would get bored and try solo reds. The problem with that was not that I wasn't able but hit-rate against that mob was considerably reduced and resists were pumped up making it completely inefficient to do so. So higher levelled mobs being 'magically stronger' I see as a completely artificial and annoying system.
However, there are a number of other games where a computer can be a challenge. You say only chess can be an example. But I give you this example:
Pong.
Basically it can be programmed to have a computer opponent have its paddle automatically adjust to where the ball is. Its relatively simple programming and the result is with some additional speed the computer opponent inevitably winning. Now most Pongs aren't designed like this especially as they're meant to give the player a chance. But, they CAN be designed like that. Explain how you would beat a computer opponent like that, also bearing in mind with a similar kind of system this can be applied to other games.(and is)
MMO's will never have a game in which talent and skill beats time spent, because companies are there to make money, and time spent is what generates revenues for them. Time is what every player has, but talent/skill is not. So for a company out to make money, it has to shoot for a large audience.
Another thing is, talent/skill may actually drive away players who are less talented/skilled, because it will create elitism in a MMO. No one enjoys losing all the time in any game, especially in a pvp-based game. So a talent/skill based game is good for a single-player game, but bad for a MMO that's trying to broaden its appeal to the mass.
I can name many current quality MMORPGs or ones in development where time isn't as much of a factor in your success as your overall skill and ability. Those are the types of MMORPGs that I tend to go for.
You pay per month.
The game companies want you to keep paying per month.
The game companies need to string you along month after month by preventing you from getting where you want to be in the game.
In games based on skill the game company needs to have exciting end game content or an interesting profession to keep you around or you will get bored and leave.
Can you think of exciting content that would get you to play for months and months and months? And not just you but someone who is not like you in any way? The game company wants their money too.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Yes, companies do want to string the player along and force them to grind more and level more so the numbers keep rolling in. A particular MMO that you have all heard of is notorious for this - Everquest. Im not saying outright its a bad game, but the mere fact of the terrible grind in the game is the testament to how the companies want to keep taking money from your pocket every month.
But your second part (in yellow) is totally wrong. If a game is based on skill the game relies on GAMEPLAY to keep the user interested. If what you say is true then 95% of video games released cant keep people interested, which is obviously completely bs. Your totally debunking the whole purpose of games, it is usually the gameplay that comes first and then the content. Gameplay is what gamers want and crave and is what is truly fun, content is just something that builds upon that. Only MMO's use the strategy of adding more content to a game where gameplay doesnt count and rather pVe/grinding/gear based like WoW and EQ to some extent use that strategy. But by no means would I get bored of playing Dynasty Warriors just cause they dont have 100 characters or 100 stages, or stop playing Counterstrike cause they dont have all the weapons I want.
AC kept me on it for about 2 years and the game was based more on skill (both player wise and character wise) rather than time invested. Ask anyone who played AC and 90% of them would probably say its the best MMO they have ever played IMHO. DAOC was more of a button masher but it did have some skill involved and great PvP to boot, second only to AC of course.
If we needed talent and skill for video games, why would we play them?
To Ghost12:
Wrong? me? totally wrong???
Dynasty Warriors and Counterstrike are not MMORPGs and you speak of DaoC and AC as if you stopped playing them...
Please provide us with a complete list of great GAMEPLAY games you once played that you have not played in the past month, no don't bother, I bet it is very long.
I will repeat it "In games based on skill the game company needs to have exciting end game content or an interesting profession to keep you around or you will get bored and leave."
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
If you take WoW for example. When you make your first character, the only thing you can do is to level up......invest time.
This sounds so weird, but most players today think thats the only way it can be?
Why have a game that also support skill or clever ways to come up with solutions for problems?