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General: MMOWTF: To Twitch or not to Twitch
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
Weekly MMORPG.com columnist Dan Fortier takes a look at the idea of using twitch-based combat in an MMORPG.
Of all of the features requested by gamers on a virtually non-stop, a twitch combat system stands out as one that is constantly ignored for all the wrong reasons. The industry standard MMO combat system of click-and-wait has proven that it is easier to balance and cheaper to implement, so it's no surprise that many developers have shied away from a more active combat system. This week, I want to expose a few myths about twitch combat systems and see what trends might play out in the future for the genre. Take off your rose-colored glasses and read on.
When I say 'Twitch' combat, I'm referring to a system that gives players with faster reaction time, better aim or quicker wits a decided edge in combat. You could make a case that even auto-attack systems can achieve this to various degrees and you would be right, but for the purpose of this article, I'm specifically referring to systems that have a real-time element to them rather than a 'stack' or queue for your actions. There are many different ways of integrating this real time element into combat and there are even various hybrid type systems that have been used to create a more exciting combat experience. Games like Fallen Earth and Age of Conan are already promising these types of systems, but only time will tell how successful they will be, since most games have enough issues without trying to raise the bar.
Read the whole column here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
You really wrote an article to uncover "myths" and just repeated what every dev tells us.
GREAT JOB, BRAVO.
/sarcasm
Brad McQuaid watches you when you sleep.
And you are the kind that seem to ignore the problems that face twitch-play and keep asking on for it.
twitch combat system is not for me
This is nothing new really as someone allready mentioned. I've heard this several times before.
But to bring up my point of view I don't think twitching will attract the MMORPG playerbase and that's why devs are avoiding it. Most people enjoy the traditional RPG-setting which is turnbased, a lot of clicking and with cooldowns. To cater the FPS gamers with twitched combatsystem could be both good and bad, concidering that it would bring a lot of new people to the MMO genre, but they would at the same time loose many players because of it.
There's a lot of talk about Twitching right now from all directions, but frankly I don't think that this will bring anything new to the scene. What the MMO scene need right now is something groundbreaking, like for instance not another fantasy/sci-fi game. It needs new people in the business, with fresh ideas.
Every new title right now in the MMO scene feels like Rocky VI... They should have given it up allready at Rocky III, but keep coming back for more. Someone should just K.O these poor bastards now, please.
What's the system in Planetside? There's also Roma Victor for a melee approach that worked when there weren't too many people lagging the battle out. AoC is the obvious one although even that seems like a gesture activated skill system, correct me if I'm wrong. Tabula Rasa is an interesting case - it is reaction based in that you have to (ideally) continually shift your position and manage heat although the actual targetting is still automatic.
I don't know if I'd play a fully twitch MMO though - where's the character development? I like the Battlefield series of FPSs but they're so throw-away I'd never invest any effort in creating and playing a character. Even the latest one has equipment you can unlock by playing thousands of matches but it would have to go a long way to approach an MMO. By that point it would be as much about gear and strategy as reaction time.
I had doubts about twitch in a MMO. DDO has a version of it that is actually very fun. DDO has other problems that make it suck, but the combination of auto target and twitch is the only part of the game that does not suck in my opinion.
Andy
Planetside is FPS(first person shooter), which is the backbone of twitch combat. To me, hybrid systems are a waste of time, and a bit confusing to say the least.
I also think that when it comes to twitch/fps vs stack-style, it's a simple matter of e-peen. Someone should do an experiment. Take EVE Online, and incorporate joysticks into the flying. I guarantee you there would be a massive subscription loss - and they wouldn't be all noob cakes either. You would see characters with 15-20mil skill points just up and leave the game because some hotshot flight sim junkie in a little frigate blew up his mucho expensive carrier because he had better skills on a stick than the carrier pilot.
I went to a WoW convention in my area, and while I was there, someone had set up an Unreal Tournament LAN on site. Out of 2-4 thousand people, there were never once more than 4 in the room playing.
And for the record, Neocron was an MMOFPS with a highly complex system of character development. It was a premier game in it's day, and now it's barely hanging on.
IMHO twitch combat is the only way to go with PvP or PvE.
I would love to see twitch based combat in all the MMOs.
People complain about latency but in Planetside it played like any other FPS game and never had any problems.
What happened of lately that developers are trying so hard to force TWITCH systems into RPG's ?
RPG's are all baout strategy and tactics, not about BUNNYHOPPING
But let me get this straight.
Dont you know there are games like Battlefield , COD , Counter Strike - you can twitch there as much as you want.
Actually when i want some quality PVP that needs player skill, i much perfere to play such games. There is all about player skill , not about how long did the player play the game.
When it comes to MMOs - Please stop busting your chests. Developers are trying their best even to make turn based combat lag free.Massive battles in twitch mode , it is simply imposibble - there is just to many information that needs to be tracked.
I say let RPG games be RPG and tactical - And let Action games be Twitch , dont mix things that should not be mixed
Neocron is a hybrid MMORPG/FPS and was the first MMO that made me willing to pay a monthly fee to play used a targeting system with a single hit box like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex which are both hybrid RPG/FPS, but Neocron's downfall was not the gameplay but the lack advertising, bad payment provider and lack of simple bug fixing, and may had a lot to do with only having one main programmer and at some points up to 2 part time programmers but the now the company that made Neocron is working on a new MMO for their new parent company and it seems to be that they don't want to waste their time fixing the bugs now that they have the support of a larger development company.
But for a system like this to really would you have to get rid of a lot of the "Spells" that the current system uses and it would not fit well with fantasy type games that are mostly melee and casters, but it would work will with Modern and Sci-Fi themed games as most combat and weapons in these genre are ranged and based on weapons that can have a range of firing patterns(Single Shot, Semi-Auto, Full Auto) and categories(Crossbow, Pistol, Rifle, Heavy Combat, Fixed Guns), also they support a wide range of damage types.
What a terrible article, it doesn't do anything beyond acknowledge that there is several issues with a more real time approach to MMO combat.
It doesn't dig in to the problems pros and cons, or offer possible solutions or approaches to the issues.
Neocron is not a real fps, sorry. It involved hit or miss rolls like any rpg , only difference was you had to point and click every time to attack. Remember beta testing it way back when. Let's just say swinging at a swarm of flies is beyond funny, and it makes you feel like a total idiot.
Twitch play and whether or not it would work in any particular MMO would, I think, depend very much on the type of game people are trying to implement it into. I'm of the opinion that in your average land based MMO-RPG such as Lineage, Everquest, WOW and the rest it wouldn't work very well if at all. These are all strategy type games where stats, talents and skills provided to a players avatar play a big part in what that avatar can and can't do. Likewise with the available equipment within the game. The game design dictates what any particular character can or cannot do , wear or use and in this kind of game it's up to the player to use these in the best way possible for his character to succeed. Bringing an element of player skill into the equation through 'twitch' control of said character ultimately defeats the whole purpose of designing the game to use character stats in the first place. A World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings or Everquest with twitch control would never have taken off in the way they have and given us the current over abundance of Everquest look-a-likes we have now.
Twitch play needs a game design that doesn't rely on character stats (hence why EVE-Online is not a twitch play space ship MMO). The most obvious basis to design this kind of game around is vehicles. I've never played Auto Assault and have never read up on it but this MMO is, in my opinion, the ideal kind of game design to build a twitch control system. The emphasis of player progression would have to be removed from improving or increasing the kind of stats, skills, etc. a charcter has and move instead to the type and quality of vehicle/equipment a player is able to aquire within the game environment. Immediate examples that spring to mind is just about every single-player space combat or aircraft combat simulator ever created. The actual character the player controlled never actually had any game related skills as such. The only thing that determined what he could achieve, blow up, move, whatever was always the size, type and quality of vehicle and equipment he could aquire through playing the game.
Twitch control based MMO games are not an unreasonable or unachievable goal as far as I'm concerned but what is certain is that twitch control cannot be used in every, if any, type of MMO game as we know the genre today. Game designers have to move away from the humanoid on foot in a game world using the traditional character stats and skills design format and move to the combat simulator game design shown in the likes of Wing Commander, Privateer, Freelancer and the like. Only then, I think, can twitch control gameplay be properly implemented in an MMO.
Whether it would sell or not is an entirely different matter...
And you are the kind that seem to ignore the problems that face twitch-play and keep asking on for it.
Wrong. But thanks for disqualifying yourself by giving in to your prejudices.
Why not take a cue from Oblivion and have an endurance bar? Have one for arms and one for legs. If you swing too much, you get tired and swing weakly. If you were out your legs, you can't run as fast or jump at all. Say you do a jump attack to start combat. That would wear both out and you'd be wide open for a moment. Hell, have parrying tied to it as well. Make it so if you suddenly start strafing left and right really fast the fatigue stacks to the point that you can't stand after a moment.
On your second point. It doesn't stop macroer's at all. It just means Macroers will have an enormous advantage in combat.
On your third point. It doesn't give lower level characters a little bit more of a chance. It gives lower level players who are good at twitch combat a better chance.
On your forth point. Fine, youa re right. Gear is not going to be as much of a factor. Now, the deciding factor is who is better at twitch combat.
On your fifth point. Twinks are now much more of an annoyance, because you can't depend on your levels, gear, and friends to avoid the ones bouncing circles around you with their BFG and their nostromo gamepad.
The point of all this is that now the deciding factor in everything is not: your level, armor, character type, or # of friends. Its how fast your punch a bunch of buttons on your keyboard or how fast you can punch 1 macro on your gamepad. I think why you like the idea of adding twitch combat is becasue you are good at it. PERIOD.
and finally,
The point of a MMO is to play something you are not. A max-level character with all the max-level gear SHOULD be able to wipe the floor with a lower level character-- Even if the player is a 45 year old stay at home mom playing while her kids are sleeping.
WWII Online had a very good concept for MMOFPS/RTS. The battles, whenever I could find one, could be very intense and in this game teamwork, strategy, tactics, and FPS skills > frag fest. For MMO melee combat a realistic, physics twitch based fighting could provide a richer tactical experience. I think this is being done in AoC and I hope they implement it well if they are going for twitch based combat.
They lost me on the first sentence.
Of all of the features requested by gamers on a virtually non-stop, a twitch combat system stands out as one that is constantly ignored for all the wrong reasons.
Either leave out "on a" or add "basis" after "non-stop". Anybody proof-read these articles? (Other than the author, I mean.)
Also, I don't agree with this statement as a fact. I think I've seen this issue raised only once or twice.
This issue reminds me of all the high-school drama of "nerds" vs. "jocks". "Jocks" being the twichers and "nerds" being the "min-maxers".
MMORPG's, like their P&P origins, are all about:
Character = skill
Player = strategy
and I don't see this changing until "MMOVR" becomes a reality. Although, if the VR used VR-suits, the jocks might have an advantage and if it used Matrix like jacking-in, the nerds might have the advantage.
------- END TRANSMISSION
Technical limitations aside, I think a twitch based system would be great in a MMOG, to me it would feel like I am actually playing a character, and would make fighting both more exciting and tactical.
But then again, I don't think RPGs have to be about levels/skills or be character dependent, they are all about pretending to be a character, and to me twitch combat would help with the whole pretend to be a character part, the auto attack, dice combat used now has the exact opposit effect, it makes me feel an obvious distincttion between me and my character. Like I have said before, you can't make a RPG, just play one.
But of course I am pretty good at most action games, FPS, brawlers, adventure games and the like (especially brawlers), so my ability to play an RPG would not decrease with the addition of twitch combat, it would probably improve, seeing as I don't enjoy current MMORPGs combat enough to invest the time needed to be competitive, so maybe I am biased.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I honestly believe that Twitch combat would be best off in action games and FPS, not in many MMOs.
As it has been said, in massive PVP(castle sieges, GvG) or raid PVE, there would be too many packets being sent and thus would cause not just extreme lag, but even server crashes... Only way that you could POSSIBLY have any chance of not having that problem is if the server had a mobo that supported 2 or 3 quad core xeons with 20GB+ RAM and a 10,000 base-T connection.
There would be way too much latency. Now, however... If they can figure out how to properly code a twitch system that would easily flow and would be easier to balance (i.e.: Each strike would have a chance of missing, even when head-on, etc...)
Until then, most MMOs should stick with the delay-based battle systems they have now.
Plus...It'd be damn near impossible to hit skill macros while smashing buttons.
RIP: Masamunex - 75PLD/37WAR Ramuh
We will rise again from the ashes. To take over Vana'Diel.
I think that it depends on the type of game. Games like Planetside or the upcoming Tabula Rasa would work well with a Twitch combat mechanic. However games such as WoW, EQ2 really wouldn't do well at all. I would shudder to think how laggy a 40v40 Alterac Valley would be if there were no cooldowns and just who can click the quickest fest.
So if the MMOG is a FPS inspired game, Twitching would work well. Otherwise it's a bad idea.
Not sure if someone already mentioned this (don't have time to read all the posts right now) , but it isn't that there are not developers etc with good, NEW, fresh ideas out there. It is the people that are backing them with all the MONEY and them saying to go with whats proven to work. Thats why there are a million WW2 games, and why almost all MMO''s are either fantasy or scifi etc. A developer wants to develope a new fresh exciting game and the people with the $$ do not want to take the risk. Guess who wins the argument in that case
Just thought I'd mention that.
To me this isuue is a simple one and if I want to play an online twitch game there is no shortage of them with new ones being released all the time. I do not however have much of a desire to play them which is the reason I'm here on this website in the 1st place, I like mmorpg's.
I am a firm believer in character skills being much more important than player skills in an rpg. The player skill comes in with the building and attribute / skill allocation of the character and this is where most mmorpg's come up short with simplistic systems that eventually result in a whole lot of identical high level clones. Games like Ao with their complex character build structure take mental effort and skill to be a success while games like WoW could be mastered by a drunken tortoise. More and more it seems these days developers are taking the easy options when it comes to games design and then they start looking to hybrid systems to try and make them more exciting. Just put in a little more effort at the outset, challange our brains and the need for super-human thumbs can be left in the fps arenas.