I think a lot of players would enjoy smaller size raids versus the larger 40+ man raids from previous games. Some of the best PvE content I've seen has been in 20 man or less raid encounters. If you get much higher than that it becomes more of a test of how many morons you have in your raid, rather than skill and member coordination. I'd like WAR to have a few PvE dungeons for 10-12 person raids to run.
Originally posted by Takata5 Originally posted by BuzWeaver The 'end game' mentality is what ruins MMOPRG's.
So in other words YOU don't like "end game" raiding?
The 'end game' mentality consist of tunnel vision. Instead of taking in the content of the game, the objective is to get to the destination as quickly as possible, you know, the 'fun stuff'. The elements that make the game compelling, give it depth, substance and character is seen as obstacles.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Originally posted by ConverseSC Yet, the overwhelming majority is playing a game were end-game raiding is the main focus. Please, keep passing off your subjective experience as fact that.
What's happened is you have games that have been out for a few years and players have reached the glass ceiling. There isn't any substance to the game, just that next expansion with Boss MOB X, who drops Uber Gear Y. Within a few weeks of LOTRO release people were already level capped and demanding an 'end game', we are talking like three weeks into the game.
End Gamers see things like meditating, combat recovery, trade skills (crafting), lore and questing as obstacles or road signs they glimpse at as they go tearing down the leveling highway.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
But you are right to identify both as "endgame" activities, where you have to put in considerably more effort than during the main game leveling period to see any advancement. It is a crutch that most mmorpg uses to avoid having to tell people that they reached the end of the game and there is nothing left to do until the expansion comes out. I think it will be different with Warhammer Online even though its the same city will make siege too. Anyway I will try to conquer all six of them.
Yes, because the only people who like to play relatively simple games are simple-minded imbeciles. If there is one field where elitism is completely and utterly pathetic, it's the field of VIDEO GAMES. Look, most people play WoW after all those things you listed are done. I'm not saying that most people play WoW simply to raid, I'm not even saying that most MMO players like raiding. i'm just saying that there are tons of people who apparently like raiding, and that the most popular MMO game ever is heavily-focused on raiding. Don't see what ANY of this has to do with WAR.
WoW raiders only represent the minority of the players. Most will never see endgame raiding content and most never inteded to. You'll find most maxed leveld players in PvP battlegrounds or making money to fund a low level twink for PvP. Even in a PvE game like WoW the majority of players still PvP instead of end game raiding. Thas is why I think WAR will be succesful because it is focused on what the majority want and that is PvP without PvE end game gear grinding.
And the vicious circle starts all over again, do some PvP win / lose get some gear, finally capture your cities, rinse, repeat.
How long until this gets boring?
They have their little tome book and monsters all in line with the lore, public quests that take the role out of play and make it group play if you want.
There is a need for SUBSTANTIAL PvE in this game for it to succeed. It needs to be engrossing and engaging and encouraging.
There is the opportunity to make it a great game, but being too PvP is bad if they don't concentrate on the PvE aswell.
There is like only 50+ guild that have killed this so called Daemon Spawn called Illiadan (most guild have only about 50 ppl) so that about 200-300 ppl there manage to beat everything in game out of 9 million user.
It's because we live in an age where this generation and the previous few generations have been trained to be competitive since they were kids. Just look around you in your community and most families these days. The people over 60 will say "yeah back in the day the whole family and friends would have big get-togethers". These days, people aren't like that. People are competitive, and want to be the best.
This is just that same principle transcending into MMO's, like it does everywhere. Selfishness takes precedent to socializing and enjoyment these days. People feel they have to spend every waking minute achieving something or else they are wasting their time. This is why people grind their asses off in MMO's, and "power-leveling" services and "grind-groups" are so popular.
You could take 100 random players for the next AOC or WAR MMO's, put them in a room with the game, and give them two handbooks; One which tells them how to get to max level in an hour, and the other which tells them how to get to max level in 12 hours, but enjoy the leveling experience a whole lot more. I guarantee the vast majority is picking the 1-hour book.
So in other words YOU don't like "end game" raiding?
The 'end game' mentality consist of tunnel vision. Instead of taking in the content of the game, the objective is to get to the destination as quickly as possible, you know, the 'fun stuff'. The elements that make the game compelling, give it depth, substance and character is seen as obstacles.
He's right. I think the whole "end game" quote is stupid. The games ends for each individual differently. Always did always will. I don't think there should be a therm that tells me when I personally have hit "end game".
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
It's because we live in an age where this generation and the previous few generations have been trained to be competitive since they were kids. Just look around you in your community and most families these days. The people over 60 will say "yeah back in the day the whole family and friends would have big get-togethers". These days, people aren't like that. People are competitive, and want to be the best. This is just that same principle transcending into MMO's, like it does everywhere. Selfishness takes precedent to socializing and enjoyment these days. People feel they have to spend every waking minute achieving something or else they are wasting their time. This is why people grind their asses off in MMO's, and "power-leveling" services and "grind-groups" are so popular. You could take 100 random players for the next AOC or WAR MMO's, put them in a room with the game, and give them two handbooks; One which tells them how to get to max level in an hour, and the other which tells them how to get to max level in 12 hours, but enjoy the leveling experience a whole lot more. I guarantee the vast majority is picking the 1-hour book. It's not just MMO's, it's the way life is today.
Thats why Im going with WAR, I think I will meet allot of interesting people and be able to help build a structured "brotherhood" guild from the ground up, on day one. I remember in EQ the day I hit 60. You know what happened? SOE took over and raised the level cap and made leveling easier. I spent 4 YEARS getting my guy to that level, 4 BLEEDING YEARS. 2 months after that expansion I met a guy who started 1 week after luclin launched, and was 60.
End game=0
SOE and their corperate greed=1
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
The best way to ensure a pve endgame is to support the game at the outset. If you make yourself a respected member of the community and you build a respected guild you will have a great deal more pull with the devs as they explore what direction this game will take in the future. The fact that they are focusing on , arguably, the more difficult aspect of the game, pvp, is a testimony to their commitment to make a solid game at release. Mythics transparency about development and their constant interaction with their fledgling community is unprecedented in MMORPG development. Support the game and you will have a voice in its future. If you, the customer, want more pve, they will probably listen.
Ok. When you are talking about WoW, raiding, & PvE you have to keep a few things in mind.
1. The users of this forum are mostly American or European.
2. This is a quote directly from Blizzard: "Player population in North America now exceeds 2 million, while Europe and China pass the 1.5 million player and 3.5 million player marks, respectively" (Source: www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml)
You have to keep in mind that there are only about 2 million WoW players in North America. There are, however, at least 5 million players from Asian countries (This is an old press release). Nothing against Asian people, but they do seem to like games that Americans/Europeans would consider boring, repetitive, crudely made, etc.
Just for an example. Maple Story is the highest subscribed MMO in the world with over 50 million subscribers world wide. Only about 1.5 million of those subscriptions are from non-Asian countries. (Source: rpgvault.ign.com/articles/748/748331p1.html and gamestudy.org/eblog/) Maple Story would fall under that category in my opinion & is almost entirely focused on PvE.
Here's another. Lineage has over 3 million subscribers world wide (Source: www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html) Again, a game that in my opinion, is boring, crude & repeatative (But does have, apparently, a big PvP side. I never made it more than 20 minutes into the game to find out). From the same chart you can see that Lineage 2 has over 2 million subscribers & again, would fall into the same category in my opinion.
The point I'm trying to make is that the forum goers here are biased. We do not make up a majority of people who are going to be playing the game. Hell, we don't even make up a majority of the countries that are going to be playing the game.
So yes, there are a ton of people that LOVE to raid, but there are probably none that visit this forum.
Now, having said that, I direct your attention to this post made by ConverseSC on these very forums. It should hopefully answer any questions you have about PvE in WAR. www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1543876#1543876
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Comments
I think a lot of players would enjoy smaller size raids versus the larger 40+ man raids from previous games. Some of the best PvE content I've seen has been in 20 man or less raid encounters. If you get much higher than that it becomes more of a test of how many morons you have in your raid, rather than skill and member coordination. I'd like WAR to have a few PvE dungeons for 10-12 person raids to run.
Obviously you're not a golfer.
The 'end game' mentality consist of tunnel vision. Instead of taking in the content of the game, the objective is to get to the destination as quickly as possible, you know, the 'fun stuff'. The elements that make the game compelling, give it depth, substance and character is seen as obstacles.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Well put, BuzWeaver. I agree with that completely.
What's happened is you have games that have been out for a few years and players have reached the glass ceiling. There isn't any substance to the game, just that next expansion with Boss MOB X, who drops Uber Gear Y. Within a few weeks of LOTRO release people were already level capped and demanding an 'end game', we are talking like three weeks into the game.
End Gamers see things like meditating, combat recovery, trade skills (crafting), lore and questing as obstacles or road signs they glimpse at as they go tearing down the leveling highway.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
But you are right to identify both as "endgame" activities, where you have to put in considerably more effort than during the main game leveling period to see any advancement. It is a crutch that most mmorpg uses to avoid having to tell people that they reached the end of the game and there is nothing left to do until the expansion comes out. I think it will be different with Warhammer Online even though its the same city will make siege too. Anyway I will try to conquer all six of them.
WoW raiders only represent the minority of the players. Most will never see endgame raiding content and most never inteded to. You'll find most maxed leveld players in PvP battlegrounds or making money to fund a low level twink for PvP. Even in a PvE game like WoW the majority of players still PvP instead of end game raiding. Thas is why I think WAR will be succesful because it is focused on what the majority want and that is PvP without PvE end game gear grinding.
And the vicious circle starts all over again, do some PvP win / lose get some gear, finally capture your cities, rinse, repeat.
How long until this gets boring?
They have their little tome book and monsters all in line with the lore, public quests that take the role out of play and make it group play if you want.
There is a need for SUBSTANTIAL PvE in this game for it to succeed. It needs to be engrossing and engaging and encouraging.
There is the opportunity to make it a great game, but being too PvP is bad if they don't concentrate on the PvE aswell.
Second that
There is like only 50+ guild that have killed this so called Daemon Spawn called Illiadan (most guild have only about 50 ppl) so that about 200-300 ppl there manage to beat everything in game out of 9 million user.
It's because we live in an age where this generation and the previous few generations have been trained to be competitive since they were kids. Just look around you in your community and most families these days. The people over 60 will say "yeah back in the day the whole family and friends would have big get-togethers". These days, people aren't like that. People are competitive, and want to be the best.
This is just that same principle transcending into MMO's, like it does everywhere. Selfishness takes precedent to socializing and enjoyment these days. People feel they have to spend every waking minute achieving something or else they are wasting their time. This is why people grind their asses off in MMO's, and "power-leveling" services and "grind-groups" are so popular.
You could take 100 random players for the next AOC or WAR MMO's, put them in a room with the game, and give them two handbooks; One which tells them how to get to max level in an hour, and the other which tells them how to get to max level in 12 hours, but enjoy the leveling experience a whole lot more. I guarantee the vast majority is picking the 1-hour book.
It's not just MMO's, it's the way life is today.
So in other words YOU don't like "end game" raiding?
The 'end game' mentality consist of tunnel vision. Instead of taking in the content of the game, the objective is to get to the destination as quickly as possible, you know, the 'fun stuff'. The elements that make the game compelling, give it depth, substance and character is seen as obstacles.
He's right. I think the whole "end game" quote is stupid. The games ends for each individual differently. Always did always will. I don't think there should be a therm that tells me when I personally have hit "end game".
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
End game=0
SOE and their corperate greed=1
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
The best way to ensure a pve endgame is to support the game at the outset. If you make yourself a respected member of the community and you build a respected guild you will have a great deal more pull with the devs as they explore what direction this game will take in the future. The fact that they are focusing on , arguably, the more difficult aspect of the game, pvp, is a testimony to their commitment to make a solid game at release. Mythics transparency about development and their constant interaction with their fledgling community is unprecedented in MMORPG development. Support the game and you will have a voice in its future. If you, the customer, want more pve, they will probably listen.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Ok. When you are talking about WoW, raiding, & PvE you have to keep a few things in mind.
1. The users of this forum are mostly American or European.
2. This is a quote directly from Blizzard: "Player population in North America now exceeds 2 million, while Europe and China pass the 1.5 million player and 3.5 million player marks, respectively" (Source: www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml)
You have to keep in mind that there are only about 2 million WoW players in North America. There are, however, at least 5 million players from Asian countries (This is an old press release). Nothing against Asian people, but they do seem to like games that Americans/Europeans would consider boring, repetitive, crudely made, etc.
Just for an example. Maple Story is the highest subscribed MMO in the world with over 50 million subscribers world wide. Only about 1.5 million of those subscriptions are from non-Asian countries. (Source: rpgvault.ign.com/articles/748/748331p1.html and gamestudy.org/eblog/) Maple Story would fall under that category in my opinion & is almost entirely focused on PvE.
Here's another. Lineage has over 3 million subscribers world wide (Source: www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html) Again, a game that in my opinion, is boring, crude & repeatative (But does have, apparently, a big PvP side. I never made it more than 20 minutes into the game to find out). From the same chart you can see that Lineage 2 has over 2 million subscribers & again, would fall into the same category in my opinion.
The point I'm trying to make is that the forum goers here are biased. We do not make up a majority of people who are going to be playing the game. Hell, we don't even make up a majority of the countries that are going to be playing the game.
So yes, there are a ton of people that LOVE to raid, but there are probably none that visit this forum.
Now, having said that, I direct your attention to this post made by ConverseSC on these very forums. It should hopefully answer any questions you have about PvE in WAR. www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1543876#1543876
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."