IMHO twitch combat is the only way to go with PvP or PvE.
It would make the games more realistic. It stops unattended combat macorers in PvE games. It gives lower level characters a little bit more of a chance when getting ganked by higher level characters. It means that "gear" is not the "one button kill" deciding factor. Twinks - less of an annoyance because gear is not the #1 deciding factor in a fight.
I would love to see twitch based combat in all the MMOs.
Please, I beseech you, allow us old-fogy twitch-challenged players some games to enjoy! You cannot possibly play all the MMOs!
For those people that say MMORPG gameplay is about strategy and not Realtime things like dodging etc. Quit trying to justify a horrible and lazy gameplay style, If you look at the "Development" of MMORPGs you can see gameplay getting WORSE and slower in new games compared to older games like Asherons Call and Ultima Online. Besides, What is more strategic than a REALTIME combat system?
"Things like constant strafing and jumping in order to dodge attacks (a la FPS) becomes a legitimate strategy for victory, but looks utterly ridiculous."
and to the guy who wrote the article, yes because elves and dwarves dont look utterly ridiculous.
I will try to keep reading everyones post but meh most of you have no clue about single player RPGs I see. Jade Dragon, Oblivion, Crackdown, and I think Mass Effect is all twitch based RPGs that sold -well-. now whether or not this can work in MMORPG feel free to argue all day but I know it can but there are some valid concerns I've seen posted ehre and there
think back to why we have dice rolls in the first place please. In Pen and paper / MUD think for one second- this is why RPGs come from. in thiose it was all -dice rolls- right?
anyway I like twitch, hybrid, and AFK dice rolls (auto attack). Auto attack is good for the level grinder MMOs but if the game is focused on having fun like the console RPGs then I'd like twitch. i can see validity to those arguments and reasoning but saying twitch based combat cant work is silly. Asheron's call 1 and im sure many others had some form of it.
Anyways.. there are ways to balance it. I suck at Twitch games.. always have, Doesn't mean i don't like playing them it just make me look for ways to fix it. I've read that someone said sometihng about putting in stamina, that is one great way to keep the bunny hoping people from killing you.
I think Twitch combat would and could make a great MMORPG, role-playing game has nothing to do with the type of system you use for combat. I truely beleive that the biggest thing holding this back are the people. People just don't want to have to take the chance of grinding for hours on end and still get beatn by someone that it quick with a mouse/keyboard. They think that it would take away from there grind. But this is wrong, it depends on the system that is put in place. You can still have a skill system, but have it allow you to do more actions or use more powerfull attack as you gain skill. magic can be used as well.. but have it be more like majic should be. find target aim and fire. deppending on the spell, hell it even makes some magical spells more fun, as in AOE's don't have to be on a target just cast them in the area and boom everything gets blasted with person cloest to center taking more damage. archers being more marks men. Damn wouldn't it be nice to really be able to use line if site and not some computer % system. (hehe the stealthy archer pinpointing the bandits head hidden behind the tree. POP head shot) it would be nice.. Hell being able to hender people by attacking there arms and legs. There are so many diffrent concepts that can be used all need to be explored.
You could try looking at how server/client comunication is handled, and what infermation really needs to be sent to the server and what information can be sent between clients. I think one thing that will help with that is emplamenting some P2P between clients. There is just some information that doesn't have to go server side. but i guess everyone will be worried about getting hacked with the whole P2P thing.
oh well.. not that it really maters this will go down with the pvp vs pve / pk vs non-pk war.
well.. my ramblings, hope it is somewhat understandable but thats the way my mind works.
Would you enjoy being killed countless times by a player who invested more time than you? In several mmos, the lower leveled players (newbies) have no chance in defeating the higher leveled veterans (so-called pros), since most of the attacks result in misses. For the higher leveled veterans, it would be pleasurable to kill newbies, but wouldn't it be much more gratifying to have the skill to kill a stronger opponent? If a player who spent more time grinding can kill me easily with a few button mashes, then that PvP system is flawed, IMO. In numerous mmos, Time = Skill and that bugs me. In closing, I wouldn't expect realistically to see a veteran warrior casually glance at an amateur that continued to pummel the veteran only to result in misses.
So you feel that time and effort put into a character's development should be made less meaningful? That someone who's put the time and effort into developing their character should be able to be beaten down by someone who just started, simply because the new player spent more time on Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike and is a better twitch player? That's a bit short-sighted, don't ya think?
Most people avoid the issue of being beaten down by higher level characters... by not fighting them in the first place. A higher level character will and should have more HP, higher strength and attack power and probably a superior arsenal. To say "they shouldn't necessarily be able to beat someone far lower than them" is a bit odd to me.
It's no different than a level 10 player trying to fight a level 50 mob. The level 50 mob is going to wipe the floor with you because it's stronger, has more HP, has more devastating attacks, has higher def than you, etc.
I'm all for creating a sub-genre of MMORPGs.. like MMOFPSs or something, where the rules are entirely different and appeal to those more attracted to a twitch style of play. But to imply that there's something wrong with the current setup as an argument for twitch-based combat is a bit disingenuous and unnecessary. It works. It has worked. It continues to work.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Character building is essential to any MMOFPS. Balancing the higher leveled player's power to overpower and give a hefty advantage to a lowbie would allow minimal chance for the veteran to lose. In which case, if the veteran did lose, s/he should be considered an amateur regardless of time investment. Maybe my idea is too harsh, but it is reality in a sense.I know it works, but using what works for countless years is just plain boring. No risk would mean a stagnant market with the same genre of games with no innovation at all. I don't think my idea is shortsighted, since it adds to realism. One who has invested more time does not always end up the winner in many activities in life. Rather the one who is skilled in both body and mind ends up the victor. However, the current audience of MMORPG gamers want calculated wins and predictable outcomes. The grind generated from this outdated combat system. I wouldn't think there would be a grind, if the combat was enjoyable. Also, don't tell me that the combat is fun when you see bots in almost every MMORPG in the market. It's all a matter of opinion, but many acknowledge the grind.
Character building is essential to any MMOFPS. Balancing the higher leveled player's power to overpower and give a hefty advantage to a lowbie would allow minimal chance for the veteran to lose. In which case, if the veteran did lose, s/he should be considered an amateur regardless of time investment. Maybe my idea is too harsh, but it is reality in a sense.I know it works, but using what works for countless years is just plain boring. No risk would mean a stagnant market with the same genre of games with no innovation at all. I don't think my idea is shortsighted, since it adds to realism. One who has invested more time does not always end up the winner in many activities in life. Rather the one who is skilled in both body and mind ends up the victor. However, the current audience of MMORPG gamers want calculated wins and predictable outcomes. The grind generated from this outdated combat system. I wouldn't think there would be a grind, if the combat was enjoyable. Also, don't tell me that the combat is fun when you see bots in almost every MMORPG in the market. It's all a matter of opinion, but many acknowledge the grind.
Well, again... I am not against the idea of a subset of MMOs being designed around a more twitch-based setup. I'd probably even give them a try, even though I stink at twitch-based anything. I just don't agree that the current turn/delay based system has had its day and should be replaced or whatever. It's a matter of taste.
Also, as another take on it, I think the stagnation that many sense - resulting in "grind" - is due in part (the endless killing of meandering mobs and repetitive quests notwithstanding - that's a whole other thread right there :-p) to the lack of exploration or trying new things by players. No matter how much diversity a game offers in its character development, areas to explore, quests to complete, etc, most everyone ends up following a series of cookie-cutter templates and guides, playing through the game like they're following steps in a cake recipe. No imagination, no sense of adventure or exploration. Just doing what "so-and-so's class guide" says to do. That's boring to me, too. It makes any game predictable and tiring after a while.
This is further proven by people I know where they've ignored the "FoTM" builds, stayed away from the guides and used their own brains to do the research and find interesting builds that others would think wierd, but work. A great example of this... In Lineage 2 - yet another game where cookie-cutter templates rule the day - a friend of mine decided he wanted to try something different. Being someone who enjoys crunching numbers and experimenting with different setups, he found a character build that was very unusual (by templated standards) but yet very lethal. Someone was skeptical (since it wasn't what the guides tell you to do), and commented on it. So my friend challenged them to a duel... and proceeded to wipe the floor with them. The game wasn't only more interesting to him because he was playing outside the repetitive and predictable treadmill everyone else follows, it certainly was also a unique shock to the people who tried to fight him using the same tactics they would normally use against his class.
So my point in all this is that I think there's more "life" in the "old-school" build system... I think, to a degree, the players are also to blame for their becoming so bland. I don't know if there's anything a developer could do to preserve that sense of exploration since as a race, people tend to prefer finding the easiest and safest route to success. They'll find it no matter what you throw at them.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I must've come off on a wrong note. I'm not saying the old system should be banished from MMO's for eternity. I meant to say that new genres and subgenres could be applied to current or new-gen MMO's. This new genre would not replace the old stat allocation and turn-based system, but would allow players a more variety of choices. I do enjoy some turn-based combat now and then as I do enjoy other old classics (unrelated to MMO's). It seems my rant above is due to the fact that many MMO players never give chances for change.
I really enjoy experimenting with character builds and some of those end up dominating over cookie-cutter builds that the majority use. Your friend who plays Lineage 2 must be very interesting.
As for the grind, I understand your point, since many enjoy the grind and claim that it's the journey that matters. Your character seems more worthwhile when more effort and time was put into it. I understand this notion completely. However, when that journey becomes so long that it takes a year (or more in some MMO's) to even reach PVP range or endgame, the content is limited due to the massive grind.
As for the grind, I understand your point, since many enjoy the grind and claim that it's the journey that matters. Your character seems more worthwhile when more effort and time was put into it. I understand this notion completely. However, when that journey becomes so long that it takes a year (or more in some MMO's) to even reach PVP range or endgame, the content is limited due to the massive grind.
Grind. AHHHHHHHHHH! that should be a whole other thread. It should be...WHY DOES GRINDING SUCK? I don't enjoy it. It makes me wanna fall asleep at my desk. I turn into a mindless robot. Point, click, kill, point , click, kill, point, click ,kill, empty inventory,point, click, kill, point, click, kill.
Completely mindless action. Thank god for pvp, instances, missions and dungeons. Killing 2-3 hundred monsters per lvl is so repetitive that it's repetitive.
First, a very large number of players are in their 30's and above. Why should we be relegated to second class merely because as a natural part of aging our reflexes slow. Now the uber leet kids will be even more obnoxious. Also, the addictive nature of mmo's coupled with their repetitive nature and necessity to log substantial time ingame to advance and excel means that there are gonna be a lot of people with carpal tunnel syndrome and arthritis. Don't believe me? I used to play fps for 6 to 8 hours a day several days a week. After several years of this and achieving number one status in my game what was I left with? A lot of very fond memories and perhaps a little pride at my achievment. Oh yeah...and now when I play fps for more than 1 hour straight my hands stiffen up and start to hurt.
OK, first off, I'm all for twitch!
Little cut and paste on the quote, but I was just picking out the bits I wanted to address because this post seemed to sum up why I am for twitch. No offense to Terranah, or anyone for that matter, but try to be as open minded as you would like other people to be towards your preferred play style when spouting givens. Grinding is well and good and works for the majority of players, ie the mainstream, because ANYONE can do it if they have time.
First, a very large number of players are well below their 30s. I'm about to be 23 myself and do not suffer from the stiff hands after only an hour, takes me about four or five to get there and once I get in a four to five hour groove I usually ignore the petrified pinky and game on for another couple hours more. With twitch though, let's examine the BattleField series, four to five hours straight can see you making some real progress! The older you get the less time you can invest, sure, and the slower your reflexes get, sure again, but uber leet kids having the run of things? Hey, in my opinion at least, that works better than a bunch of stuck up middle aged, "I put in my four hours a night, everynight, I deserve to be at the top!" guys running around. Sorry, I just don't equate large amounts of time to spend on a game to the actual skill level of the player. Twitch is skill based, grinding, the current mainstream, is time based. ANYONE can be "awesome" if they have enough time available to spend gaming. Again with the BattleField series, I've seen players that have been around for months, actively mind you, and were still very low ranks, but a few hours a night, a few nights a week, and I was climbing past them easy, that's the good stuff right there! You 30+ peoples are always happy to point out that most of the twitch gamers are annoying little kids, but few ever stop to think about the fact that these kids feel the exact same way about the leet grinders. Let's say you are a high school/college student and actually take your studies seriously or even just out of college and working more than one job to keep a roof over your head, in either case, you don't have as much time to devote as a middle aged corporate employee that works a straight 40 hours a week and spends every other waking moment playing their MMO. Hey great, good for you, have fun with it, but if you think that just because you have the time to devote you deserve to be the best, you've got another thing coming, since when has ANY kind of competition (which MMO gaming, whether you like to admit it or not, basically is to the majority of players) been judged based on the number of hours the player puts in instead of the skill of the player? Let's put it in perspective by comparing video games to basketball, no one cares how much time the championship team spends at practice, they could spend every waking moment or no time at all, if they win on the court, they still win, end of story. As long as the mainstream rewards players for the time they spend instead of their own skill (and yes, I do indeed realize that to get to 50+ in any MMO you have to have some skill, but I've yet to see a full fledged MMORPG that actually prized skill to a level that it was not required to spend hours upon countless hours in-game) grinding will unfortunately remain the mainstream.
In my, somewhat humble, opinion, twitch style gaming is the way to go. You have to earn it every step of the way, referring again to the BattleField series, you get to a high enough rank and then it just turns into a grind, but even then you still progress faster the better you actually play. In lower levels though, a skilled player will fly through and for that simple fact alone I prize the twitch method over the grinding method. I'm a PvP player so that has a lot to do with it. In fantasy MMOs, EQ being my first experience, I have always hated the fact that I advance just as fast as anyone else does for the most part, maybe just a little bit faster if I find a killer camp I can solo without anyone trying to steal the kills. In twitch games though, looking purely at stats and not considering equipment, a player's chance to advance is directly proportionate to their skill as are their chances of living through PvP combat. In my experience, nothing is more annoying than being mocked by someone twenty levels ahead of you and knowing that the only thing you can do about it is ignore them or duel, the latter having next to no point what-so-ever.
Alright, so then carpel tunnel makes it unfair? Of course it does! Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way! When I'm old enough that I can't keep up physically, I sure as hell hope that I can make up for it with experience and tricks of the trade. Just like the real world, you get older and you gotta start making up for what your body lacks with your brain and I, for one, will welcome the challenge when it comes. Not everyone would agree, but then, I'm not everyone, I'm just me and me, myself, and I all enjoy a hearty challenge
Through the darkness, out of the rain, Ephialtes comes, he is your bane. Deathly silent, in the moonless night, Ephialtes comes, fear his bite.
Battlefield 2 serves as a prime example of both twitch-based combat with strategy. Instead of running and gunning all with reflexes, teamwork is key to advancement and victory. The only way to incorporate twitch based combat is to combine BF2 elements with a persistent world with minimal lag. Also, stats and equipment would also have to be added. The underlying problem comes from the publishers' interests.
Couldn't agree more. Anyone can get to the end-game content if they play long enough with grinding and that is what makes the devs money, so that is what they stick with. Hopefully that will one day change or at least other options for quality MMOs will open up where that has changed for those of us that would like it to anyway.
But, yeah, if they took the almost exact same formula from BF2142 and put it in an MMO, shooter or not, I'd be ecstatic. Kinda like PlanetSide, I loved that game when it first game out, earn your exp on the battlefield, spend it on equipment/vehicles you want and get back out in the field. Maybe update it some, take the AA system from EQ and make certifications for certain classes of weapons, armor, ect. the main exp bar and have an AA system where a player can specialize in a certain classification and focus on one type, ie get a certification for ranged combat, but specialize in short bows rather than crossbows or longbows and this would allow the use of "rare" short bows... or something along those lines.
Through the darkness, out of the rain, Ephialtes comes, he is your bane. Deathly silent, in the moonless night, Ephialtes comes, fear his bite.
Comments
For those people that say MMORPG gameplay is about strategy and not Realtime things like dodging etc. Quit trying to justify a horrible and lazy gameplay style, If you look at the "Development" of MMORPGs you can see gameplay getting WORSE and slower in new games compared to older games like Asherons Call and Ultima Online. Besides, What is more strategic than a REALTIME combat system?
"Things like constant strafing and jumping in order to dodge attacks (a la FPS) becomes a legitimate strategy for victory, but looks utterly ridiculous."
and to the guy who wrote the article, yes because elves and dwarves dont look utterly ridiculous.
I like how planetside's engine handles it. With cone of fire. You can't do head shots etc but it's close enough and
requires less net traffic. Also remember twich game "die by the sword"? I broke a logitech flight stick doing melee with that game.
Another thing I think would be cool for hack and slash twich. Is force feedback. Went away as a 90's fad
but perfect for MMO combat.
I will try to keep reading everyones post but meh most of you have no clue about single player RPGs I see. Jade Dragon, Oblivion, Crackdown, and I think Mass Effect is all twitch based RPGs that sold -well-. now whether or not this can work in MMORPG feel free to argue all day but I know it can but there are some valid concerns I've seen posted ehre and there
think back to why we have dice rolls in the first place please. In Pen and paper / MUD think for one second- this is why RPGs come from. in thiose it was all -dice rolls- right?
anyway I like twitch, hybrid, and AFK dice rolls (auto attack). Auto attack is good for the level grinder MMOs but if the game is focused on having fun like the console RPGs then I'd like twitch. i can see validity to those arguments and reasoning but saying twitch based combat cant work is silly. Asheron's call 1 and im sure many others had some form of it.
Guess alot of people have many op's about this..
Anyways.. there are ways to balance it. I suck at Twitch games.. always have, Doesn't mean i don't like playing them it just make me look for ways to fix it. I've read that someone said sometihng about putting in stamina, that is one great way to keep the bunny hoping people from killing you.
I think Twitch combat would and could make a great MMORPG, role-playing game has nothing to do with the type of system you use for combat. I truely beleive that the biggest thing holding this back are the people. People just don't want to have to take the chance of grinding for hours on end and still get beatn by someone that it quick with a mouse/keyboard. They think that it would take away from there grind. But this is wrong, it depends on the system that is put in place. You can still have a skill system, but have it allow you to do more actions or use more powerfull attack as you gain skill. magic can be used as well.. but have it be more like majic should be. find target aim and fire. deppending on the spell, hell it even makes some magical spells more fun, as in AOE's don't have to be on a target just cast them in the area and boom everything gets blasted with person cloest to center taking more damage. archers being more marks men. Damn wouldn't it be nice to really be able to use line if site and not some computer % system. (hehe the stealthy archer pinpointing the bandits head hidden behind the tree. POP head shot) it would be nice.. Hell being able to hender people by attacking there arms and legs. There are so many diffrent concepts that can be used all need to be explored.
You could try looking at how server/client comunication is handled, and what infermation really needs to be sent to the server and what information can be sent between clients. I think one thing that will help with that is emplamenting some P2P between clients. There is just some information that doesn't have to go server side. but i guess everyone will be worried about getting hacked with the whole P2P thing.
oh well.. not that it really maters this will go down with the pvp vs pve / pk vs non-pk war.
well.. my ramblings, hope it is somewhat understandable but thats the way my mind works.
So you feel that time and effort put into a character's development should be made less meaningful? That someone who's put the time and effort into developing their character should be able to be beaten down by someone who just started, simply because the new player spent more time on Unreal Tournament or Counterstrike and is a better twitch player? That's a bit short-sighted, don't ya think?
Most people avoid the issue of being beaten down by higher level characters... by not fighting them in the first place. A higher level character will and should have more HP, higher strength and attack power and probably a superior arsenal. To say "they shouldn't necessarily be able to beat someone far lower than them" is a bit odd to me.
It's no different than a level 10 player trying to fight a level 50 mob. The level 50 mob is going to wipe the floor with you because it's stronger, has more HP, has more devastating attacks, has higher def than you, etc.
I'm all for creating a sub-genre of MMORPGs.. like MMOFPSs or something, where the rules are entirely different and appeal to those more attracted to a twitch style of play. But to imply that there's something wrong with the current setup as an argument for twitch-based combat is a bit disingenuous and unnecessary. It works. It has worked. It continues to work.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
www.oblinq.com/SnowmonkeysTemple/
Well, again... I am not against the idea of a subset of MMOs being designed around a more twitch-based setup. I'd probably even give them a try, even though I stink at twitch-based anything. I just don't agree that the current turn/delay based system has had its day and should be replaced or whatever. It's a matter of taste.
Also, as another take on it, I think the stagnation that many sense - resulting in "grind" - is due in part (the endless killing of meandering mobs and repetitive quests notwithstanding - that's a whole other thread right there :-p) to the lack of exploration or trying new things by players. No matter how much diversity a game offers in its character development, areas to explore, quests to complete, etc, most everyone ends up following a series of cookie-cutter templates and guides, playing through the game like they're following steps in a cake recipe. No imagination, no sense of adventure or exploration. Just doing what "so-and-so's class guide" says to do. That's boring to me, too. It makes any game predictable and tiring after a while.
This is further proven by people I know where they've ignored the "FoTM" builds, stayed away from the guides and used their own brains to do the research and find interesting builds that others would think wierd, but work. A great example of this... In Lineage 2 - yet another game where cookie-cutter templates rule the day - a friend of mine decided he wanted to try something different. Being someone who enjoys crunching numbers and experimenting with different setups, he found a character build that was very unusual (by templated standards) but yet very lethal. Someone was skeptical (since it wasn't what the guides tell you to do), and commented on it. So my friend challenged them to a duel... and proceeded to wipe the floor with them. The game wasn't only more interesting to him because he was playing outside the repetitive and predictable treadmill everyone else follows, it certainly was also a unique shock to the people who tried to fight him using the same tactics they would normally use against his class.
So my point in all this is that I think there's more "life" in the "old-school" build system... I think, to a degree, the players are also to blame for their becoming so bland. I don't know if there's anything a developer could do to preserve that sense of exploration since as a race, people tend to prefer finding the easiest and safest route to success. They'll find it no matter what you throw at them.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I must've come off on a wrong note. I'm not saying the old system should be banished from MMO's for eternity. I meant to say that new genres and subgenres could be applied to current or new-gen MMO's. This new genre would not replace the old stat allocation and turn-based system, but would allow players a more variety of choices. I do enjoy some turn-based combat now and then as I do enjoy other old classics (unrelated to MMO's). It seems my rant above is due to the fact that many MMO players never give chances for change.
I really enjoy experimenting with character builds and some of those end up dominating over cookie-cutter builds that the majority use. Your friend who plays Lineage 2 must be very interesting.
As for the grind, I understand your point, since many enjoy the grind and claim that it's the journey that matters. Your character seems more worthwhile when more effort and time was put into it. I understand this notion completely. However, when that journey becomes so long that it takes a year (or more in some MMO's) to even reach PVP range or endgame, the content is limited due to the massive grind.
www.oblinq.com/SnowmonkeysTemple/
Completely mindless action. Thank god for pvp, instances, missions and dungeons. Killing 2-3 hundred monsters per lvl is so repetitive that it's repetitive.
The power of the One-Eyed Cyclops compels you!
www.oblinq.com/SnowmonkeysTemple/
OK, first off, I'm all for twitch!
Little cut and paste on the quote, but I was just picking out the bits I wanted to address because this post seemed to sum up why I am for twitch. No offense to Terranah, or anyone for that matter, but try to be as open minded as you would like other people to be towards your preferred play style when spouting givens. Grinding is well and good and works for the majority of players, ie the mainstream, because ANYONE can do it if they have time.
First, a very large number of players are well below their 30s. I'm about to be 23 myself and do not suffer from the stiff hands after only an hour, takes me about four or five to get there and once I get in a four to five hour groove I usually ignore the petrified pinky and game on for another couple hours more. With twitch though, let's examine the BattleField series, four to five hours straight can see you making some real progress! The older you get the less time you can invest, sure, and the slower your reflexes get, sure again, but uber leet kids having the run of things? Hey, in my opinion at least, that works better than a bunch of stuck up middle aged, "I put in my four hours a night, every night, I deserve to be at the top!" guys running around. Sorry, I just don't equate large amounts of time to spend on a game to the actual skill level of the player. Twitch is skill based, grinding, the current mainstream, is time based. ANYONE can be "awesome" if they have enough time available to spend gaming. Again with the BattleField series, I've seen players that have been around for months, actively mind you, and were still very low ranks, but a few hours a night, a few nights a week, and I was climbing past them easy, that's the good stuff right there! You 30+ peoples are always happy to point out that most of the twitch gamers are annoying little kids, but few ever stop to think about the fact that these kids feel the exact same way about the leet grinders. Let's say you are a high school/college student and actually take your studies seriously or even just out of college and working more than one job to keep a roof over your head, in either case, you don't have as much time to devote as a middle aged corporate employee that works a straight 40 hours a week and spends every other waking moment playing their MMO. Hey great, good for you, have fun with it, but if you think that just because you have the time to devote you deserve to be the best, you've got another thing coming, since when has ANY kind of competition (which MMO gaming, whether you like to admit it or not, basically is to the majority of players) been judged based on the number of hours the player puts in instead of the skill of the player? Let's put it in perspective by comparing video games to basketball, no one cares how much time the championship team spends at practice, they could spend every waking moment or no time at all, if they win on the court, they still win, end of story. As long as the mainstream rewards players for the time they spend instead of their own skill (and yes, I do indeed realize that to get to 50+ in any MMO you have to have some skill, but I've yet to see a full fledged MMORPG that actually prized skill to a level that it was not required to spend hours upon countless hours in-game) grinding will unfortunately remain the mainstream.
In my, somewhat humble, opinion, twitch style gaming is the way to go. You have to earn it every step of the way, referring again to the BattleField series, you get to a high enough rank and then it just turns into a grind, but even then you still progress faster the better you actually play. In lower levels though, a skilled player will fly through and for that simple fact alone I prize the twitch method over the grinding method. I'm a PvP player so that has a lot to do with it. In fantasy MMOs, EQ being my first experience, I have always hated the fact that I advance just as fast as anyone else does for the most part, maybe just a little bit faster if I find a killer camp I can solo without anyone trying to steal the kills. In twitch games though, looking purely at stats and not considering equipment, a player's chance to advance is directly proportionate to their skill as are their chances of living through PvP combat. In my experience, nothing is more annoying than being mocked by someone twenty levels ahead of you and knowing that the only thing you can do about it is ignore them or duel, the latter having next to no point what-so-ever.
Alright, so then carpel tunnel makes it unfair? Of course it does! Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way! When I'm old enough that I can't keep up physically, I sure as hell hope that I can make up for it with experience and tricks of the trade. Just like the real world, you get older and you gotta start making up for what your body lacks with your brain and I, for one, will welcome the challenge when it comes. Not everyone would agree, but then, I'm not everyone, I'm just me and me, myself, and I all enjoy a hearty challenge
Through the darkness, out of the rain,
Ephialtes comes, he is your bane.
Deathly silent, in the moonless night,
Ephialtes comes, fear his bite.
Battlefield 2 serves as a prime example of both twitch-based combat with strategy. Instead of running and gunning all with reflexes, teamwork is key to advancement and victory. The only way to incorporate twitch based combat is to combine BF2 elements with a persistent world with minimal lag. Also, stats and equipment would also have to be added. The underlying problem comes from the publishers' interests.
www.oblinq.com/SnowmonkeysTemple/
Couldn't agree more. Anyone can get to the end-game content if they play long enough with grinding and that is what makes the devs money, so that is what they stick with. Hopefully that will one day change or at least other options for quality MMOs will open up where that has changed for those of us that would like it to anyway.
But, yeah, if they took the almost exact same formula from BF2142 and put it in an MMO, shooter or not, I'd be ecstatic. Kinda like PlanetSide, I loved that game when it first game out, earn your exp on the battlefield, spend it on equipment/vehicles you want and get back out in the field. Maybe update it some, take the AA system from EQ and make certifications for certain classes of weapons, armor, ect. the main exp bar and have an AA system where a player can specialize in a certain classification and focus on one type, ie get a certification for ranged combat, but specialize in short bows rather than crossbows or longbows and this would allow the use of "rare" short bows... or something along those lines.
Through the darkness, out of the rain,
Ephialtes comes, he is your bane.
Deathly silent, in the moonless night,
Ephialtes comes, fear his bite.