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Many classes VS few classes
Ravanos
Member Posts: 897
there was a post on the EQ2 forum about why no new classes in the expansion. it was met with many different opinions but a few that stood out at me were the "eq2 already has too many classes that arent very different, they need to condense the classes and make them unique".
this got me thinking what do people want say 40 classes that have subtle differences or say 7 classes that have unique roles and fill those roles.
for example the 40 you have say
10 tanks that do thier job but have subtle differences (say weapons/armor they can use or magic)
5 melee DPS 5 Ranged non magic dps (think scouts
10 magic DPS classes that all have thier little niches (pets, CC, AOE vs Single target)
10 healers that heal as well as have minor niches.
Vs
1 tank
1 melee dps
1 ranged Non magic DPS
1 CC
1 healer
1 buffer
1 magic DPS
which would you rather have?
Comments
How about no classes, and lots of tiered/interrelated skills you can unlock?
-- Brede
The class system sucks, it just makes the game stale after a while because u get bored of the classes, then the developers have to add new ones, and rebalance. Having no classes and allowing players to level up in different aspects in the game (magic,swords,etc) could unlock different spells and attacks they could use. Then people could make there own classes with the skills they wanted to have.
I agree, i would prefer skill based as it gives alot more to character custromisation and difference instead of the simple, I'm a healer i can only heal etc.
But if i had to choose, I would prefer fewer classes that are extremely well balanced rather then a host of roles.
Making so much noise you dont know when to listen.
no classes, forget the same old role as tank, healer, or dps...i want a skill system a la SWG pre cu
skill based
I don't think anyone should prefer tons of classes. Less classes is easier to manage and balance. The devs can also make those few classes better.
having few unique classes is way better than lots of classes .. eq2 went crazy with having 2 types of monks .. 4 types of tanks 4 types of wizard .. 2 types of necromancers .. 4 types of healers .. and so on !!!
this is just insane !! the same spell everyone has but with a different name and a different graphics !! vanguard had lots of classes as well .. not as many as eq2 though .. i was a dreadknight in vanguard and i was very happy with my shadow step !! the next thing i know my bro whos a monk has the same exact spell with a different name !! i mean come on .. then there is no use of having classes if every class has the same spell !!!
in vanguard i had a spell thats CC my friend who was a CC class got disapointed coz i was CCing instead of him ... and im a tank !!
i dont wana say it again but eq1 had it right !
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I'm not really caught up that much in "classes" vs "class-less" (like eve or ryzom), but more if there are vastly different ways to play your character.
40 warrior classes isn't that impressive if they're virtually the same except for nuances and the odd skill, and there's no point in a class-less system if there are only a handful of viable paths to take.
I loved the classes in Shadowbane because the role of the scout was to actually *scout*. He wasn't "like an archer, only with faster runspeed". The role of the Thief was to actually steal from other players. He wasn't "like a rogue, only with different special attacks", and so on.
Same thing with Eve. There are lots of different roles you can take on, and playing a tycoon is nowhere *near* the same as playing a fleet commander or covert ops recon.
I like games with alot of classes, but eq2 there wasn't very much difference between the classes they have, played way too much alike. when done right where the class differences are day and night its more interesting,i don't mean dmg difference but just how they play. people talk about balancing issues but thats more a pvp thing than PVE,I like PVP but i also like PVE and in PVE games i have alts out the ass.Prefer to change things up here and there keeping things more interesting for me anyway.on EQ2 there was different arch-types but the all the scouts played basicly the same with very minor differences and the same with the rest of the arch-types.
Shadowbane had a butt load of classes, or to say it has a butt load of classes. Sadly this just means they all share the same type of skill just with a different name .
I'm all for an open system, let players make up their own classes in a skill based system.
I prefer few to no classes. The reason why is because of EQ. Thier gameplay isn't sophisticated enough to get out of the Tank, Healer, DPS type parties. As a result all classes but 3 are weak to use since they aren't directly specialized. The only game I see really making attempts to diversify this party setup with a class system is RO, where they actually specialize classes and make teamwork skills.
The original AC was just about perfect for class design. You had a point system to pick certain abilities (sword, heavy armor, buff magic, healing magic, destruction magic). You could even specialize 1 or 2 at an increased point cost thus also reduced number of total abilities.
They even provided templates to help people get started if they got confused.
Classes are just a PR crutch to make a game more friendly to the masses. Make everything so a 4 year old can understand it.
Complicated != bad, if you provide the resources to help the newer people make good choices.
AC still has the best character class creation of any game past, present, or future (that we know of).
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
also, this way the devs don't need to balance much, if everyone can do what the other person is doing then it's not unbalanced. Unless everyone uses fireball of doom 2 because it's way too uber, then that's unbalancedness.
?played: Nearly everything.
?waiting: *Darkfall*, Hero''s Journey
Vanguard has many boring unbalanced bland horrible classes that seem not much different from the others in that archetype.
WOW has few AMAZING on the most part balanced and all very different from eachother with really fun spells and kool armor.
I don't mind class based systems if they're done like WOW because they are just sooo welll made and the best i've ever played. Most of the time they try to make too many like Vanguard or EQ2 and the classes are just no fun compared.
I disagree, WoW had its share of unbalanced classes in my opion as far as PvP goes at least.
It's the best balanced mmorpg out there tbh, everyother one i've played has been far worse :P Also any class can beat any class on WOW however all the complaints come from the talent tree like Holy priests say they're not effective enough. None of the complaints actually come from people saying "we're useless in PVP" lol.
How do you imagne mmo without classes? You learn plate armor skill,axe skill and healing skill and then you are in plate armor with big axe and you can heal to??..and then you learn some dmg magic to?? Don't you get a bit too powerful?
Bottom line is that classes create scripted play, skill-based systems are simply better over time, even if there are skill combinations that are prohibited or restricted through the use of pre-requisite skills. Why do I say that? Diversity and long-term challenge - when you see a PvP character in a class based game, you know what they can do. Sure a WoW priest might be holy specced, shadow, etc, but inherently what you see really is what you get. In contrast skill-based games like UO, when you saw someone walking along in a dark grey robe, anything might happen next, which added to the fun.
WoW's taken the uncertainty out of things in the extreme in this regard: you can look someone up and see precisely what they are wearing, what talents they have, health etc etc - there simply are no surprises. You can often just look at some characters in PvP and know that assuming they play well, you will either certainly lose or certainly win in 1 v 1 PvP. That's no fun. In EVE, if you go through the wrong gate and start something with someone else, there is a good chance you really won't know how it will end, albeit that a shiny new frigate might not do so well against a battleship. Cruiser v Cruiser - who knows how it will end, lurking behind is a wonderously compex skill system and massive variation in ship fitout and design that adds genuinue uncertainty, which ultimately adds fun.
A game should not be about gear, it should be about player skill. Level based and class based games might be great if you are 12, but otherwise they are going to get stale pretty quickly once people work out the best "me vs you" PvP classes and race combinations. With skill-based games, not only do characters have more depth and diversity, but there really is likely to be no "perfect" combination. Besides, even if there is typically there will be nothing to stop you being one too, if you really want to be "template boring".
Anyways, I prefer the system WoW had, because even though the same class, you can have huge differences based on the talent trees. Highly balanced, not through that everyone can kill everyone at anytime, but every class has it's purposes.
Have you ever played a skill based mmo young one ? LOL It is called stat distribution. Also NO, bad Rait, you dont get TOO powerful, cause everyone else can do the same thing.
Have you ever played a skill based mmo young one ? LOL It is called stat distribution. Also NO, bad Rait, you dont get TOO powerful, cause everyone else can do the same thing.
Hence the FOTM builds, and the endless cycle of nerf and buff....
Dunno, I kinda like the idea of base classes at least. But other than that...I'm thinking let people make their own classes.
Say...you have priest/mage/rogue/fighter. Now, have several races. elf/dwarf/human/halfling/er...dunno, some lizard guy/trollish thing mebbe?
Ok, so you initially pick your race. Race has starting stats, i.e. one race might have +10 to dex and quick, another might have +10 to int, or wis, etc..so on.
After that, you pick your base class, which has a bonus to skills associated with that general class, like str and con for fighter, etc.
Now you have a pool of points to allocate amongst your various stats however you see fit.
After that, no more points for stat increase, only skill points to buy skills as you lvl.
As you level, depending on race/class, all of your stats will increase, some more than others. All depends on what you picked initially.
As for skills...any class can learn skills from each skill tree. HOWEVER. Some skills will cost more depending on your race class, and some skills will only open up depending on how high you climb the particular tree.
I.E. A certain race has a natural aptitude for waggly finger magicks, so it might cost a few points less to train mage skills. Now, a mage class will obviously train mage skills cheaper(point wise). So some race/class combos could have an advantage. But what if you wanted to make a spell sword? Maybe a certain race has a much better natural aptitude for blades..but you want to be a mage..so you pick the blade friendly race, make him a mage, and stagger your stats to compensate as much as you can.
Your rogue wants to learn some magic to help his stealthy skills or lockpicking? Guess what..he can train mage skills too..it will just cost more points than rogue skills would, so he would have to sacrifice some rogue skills to compensate.
You want your mage to wear plate mail? Well..he could train it..but add spell failure to armor, depending on how much armor...now plate might not really be feasible.
Etc and so on. Sounds like it could be cool. One day you run into a stealthy healer, next day a blade weaving healer, the next a tank that can dot you or buff the crap outta himself, endless possibilities.
D.
Pre-CU SWG: You could learn any skills if you met their prerequisite (need melee to learn swords, need music to learn percussion, that sorta stuff), but you only had so many skillpoints to allocate. You could do anything but not everything. You could make a tank that could heal himself, but it would mean that you couldn't specialize in neither tanking nor healing. Let alone damage dealing.
Eve: Everyone can learn everything, but your ship can only run the modules which you can fit on it, and obviously have a limited amount of energy. You can use everything, but you can't use everything at the same time.
Ryzom: Everyone can learn everything, but you spend more energy and cast slower if you try casting spells in heavy armor, and (obviously) can't tank in mage armor.
If the question is "let's have either few classes that do many things or many classes that do few things" the answer is obvious.
People like to be able to do many things, not few. Having tons of classes similar to each other with minor variations is not gonna be perfect.
Of course, having few classes does NOT automatically mean such classes are fun or different from each other and maybe having many classes does NOT automatically mean they are all similar.
But it usually DOES means so. Therefore in general, few classes but good ones, are better than many classes, but crappy ones.
As for skill based gameplay or the "make your own class" concept, it is the most awful thing to balance. Cause you CAN balance the skill singularly, but as there are nearly infinite combos, you cannot balance them all and players will ALWAYS found the best combination in any given system.
Therefore you get Tank mages from UO until they nerfed casting magic in armor (or better.. mana regeneration in armor) and then you get bards cause they were super .. and the bard skills got nerfed... and then you get animal handler cause having a dragon pet is cool and so on.
There IS more freedom in a skill based system, at the price of more work for the developers, usually meaning much much less content.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Hmm both, many distinct classes. A bit like Everquest. Or Dota if anyone has played that