I have to agree with Kasimir on this, before release the VG forum was a hell hole. It was full of Vanbois that would jump on any poster that would suggest that VG was in trouble, since they were dumped by MS and picked up by SOE there was plenty of evidence to support this theory. Instead of a discussion you were labeled a hater and torn a new butt hole, no matter how many times you asked for a logical reply it never came. The Worshippers of Brad and his vision set the tone from day one, refusing to admit that any problems could be present at Brads perfect studio. However I see the few that are left from those times that still play are willing to listen to reason now, most have accepted that the game is a turd (but wouldn't admit it here). Rather than defend the vision tooth and nail they'll admit that VG hasn't done well, but believe it will have over 100k subs by next year. They still defend VG but show logic in their arguments now, as opposed to before when they'd refuse to listen and just blindly flame you for not believing the word of Mcquaid as gospel. I think they'd like to have the forum split, rather than have to suffer what they did to others for atleast a year!
See this is where the essential disagreement between us comes from. Most Vanguard players feel that the haters created the hell hole, while the haters think it was the players that created the hell hole.
I am only suggesting that we separate people who felt so let down by Vanguard that they began to hate from the people who despite its problems, still enjoy it. Because, we are never going to convince each other who started the rift.
If we were adults, we would say that there is enough blame to pass around. Extreme, blind haters existed from the moment Vanguard was announced (there are many who left EQ1 directly stating that they would never play a Sony game or a Brad game again, extreme Brad worshipers existed from the moment Vanguard was announced, they are the ones who were so in awe of EQ1 they never noticed its massive problems. We should move away from letting these extremists rule this forum in any fashion, I believe my suggestion would be a step in the right direction.
It's worth noting that the SWG forum was ultimately divided into two sections due to the overwhelming anger and bitterness caused by the NGE. This thread in particular lays out the purpose of the Veterans forum for former players: www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/96080 Reading through it, you can see that the decision to divide the forums didn't go over really well. However, given the heated reaction that the NGE caused (understandable, since it made SWG a completely different game, removing professions, etc.) the only real way for MMORPG.com to handle the situation was to split forums between current and former SWG players. Nothing remotely comparable has happened to Vanguard. VG's problem was that it was over-hyped by both its lead developer (i.e., Brad) and the hardest of the hardcore fanboys, and when it launched in such a horrid state, the poop hit the fan in all directions. This place was really heated in the first couple of months after launch, slowed down as people quit and left, then got heated again when SOE finally took over the game, and now it's slowed down again. Things will eventually level off in here. However, because there's nothing about Vanguard that can be directly compared to what happened to SWG, there's no reason to split this forum. Vanguard just had a crappy launch, made worse because ofall the hype and fanboyism that accompanied this game. That's not a good enough reason to split this forum, especially since traffic here has slowed to a crawl, at best.
I think you are still misunderstanding my comparison. I agree with you 100% that you cannot compare the history of these two games, what I am saying is that both histories, very different in the details, led to a very similar split in the community.
I believe that most haters of Vanguard feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed and carry a huge grudge.
I believe that most haters of SWG feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed (with the NGE of course) and carry a huge grudge.
You have to admit that the two statements above are true, and are indicative of the similarity I was referring to.
I disagree with this, because I believe that fanbois share an equal part with the haters in making it worse.
I absolutely agree with this, but Sigil is responsible for the hype, and not the players of Vanguard, yet I still feel like we are blamed for their lies.
You mean its a mmorpg.com problem, and not only a vanguard forum problem. I hate to repeat myself, but Anarchy Online was a game that had REAL problems. I mean serious real, extensive, huge almost impassable problems. And people that were more than willing to point them out. Difference was, the followers of AO agreed it had problems, were willing to discuss what could be done about them and thanked for a creative discussion. Yes, I agree. This is a much better way of stating it. I really believe there were people, me for instance, who always acknowledged Vanguards problems. I will aquiesce and admit that there were some very rude Vanbois, but I disagree that they set the tone. You should re-read this forums history, because you will have to admit, as I have just done, that there were very rude blind haters of this game from the moment it was announced that did nothing but post flame-baiting trash, simply to get these Vanbois riled up. I believe these haters outnumbered the Vanbois ten fold. I very rarely saw a 'constructive' criticism of this game, most were fraught with emotionand very irrational. And very often, when a vanguard player offered these people helpful advice, 'have you tweaked your .ini settings?" for example, the response was just as laden with hateful emotion, immediately labelling the Vanguardians as Vanbois. I think, if either of us really wanted to we could actually go through the forum history and quantify how many unconstructive hate posts there were vs. unconstructive vanbois posts, but really, who wants to be that petty? Let's just try to move past letting any extremist, no matter what side they are on, rule this forum. I think my suggestion of dividing the forums would be a step in the right direction. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/126 AO forums... You see a difference? You see a difference between yours and theirs. A difference between people that can discuss both sides of a problem and a forum where the defenders attack abuse and threaten anyone that try to discuss things? I do see a difference, but I also know of several historic mmo events that changed the tamber of all of these forums from one of meaningful discussion to one of extremists ruling forums. I think the NGE created an atmosphere condusive to flame baiting posts. I really agree with you, I would like to have these forums be just as you are suggesting AO forums are. My suggestion was to help move this forum in this direction. But I think it is fairly one-sided and narrow to place all the blame on a few Vanbois, when there were at least as many, and I believe far more, blind haters who contributed to the problem as well. You dont have to understand anything... I have been extremly polite and informative in two posts now, explaining exactly why this forum is like it is. It cant be made clearer than this. But your inability to understand is kind of the trademark people have gotten used to in here. Its not like speaking for deaf ears, you speak for ears with a gun and a baseball bat, but nothing between them. I just don't see how you can place the blame squarely on the head of everyone who enjoys Vanguard and still say you were being polite. I mean, in the very next sentence you attack me personally as having 'an inability to understand' and say I have nothing between my ears, and in the following paragraph you say we brought it on ourselves, refuse to even acknowledge that there were blind haters of the game and insinuate that the entire Vanguard community is 'the same as always" and I doubt you meant that in a nice way...if this is your definition of polite and reasonable, I'd hate it if you decided to get rude. I am leaving you to it, its pointless to even try. Sit and feel sorry for yourselves. You brought it all down upon yourselves, and now, you feel misunderstood blame the "hatooorz"** Have fun with that, Vanguard community is the same as always. ** as a side note: please don't equate me with people who use leet speak, because, it's an insult to me; and although you say you have been very polite, I think you know you didn't mean that as a compliment.
I have highlighted all the places you have been extremely polite in pink. I also went back to one of your earlier posts that I quoted and did the same.Could you please quote me and do the same for every place I have been rude or insulting?
I believe that most haters of Vanguard feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed and carry a huge grudge.
I believe that most haters of SWG feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed (with the NGE of course) and carry a huge grudge.
You have to admit that the two statements above are true, and are indicative of the similarity I was referring to.
The problem is, those feelings of betrayal and of being lied to exist for two VERY different reasons.
For Vanguard, it's because the game was over-hyped, particularly by Brad McQuaid and his messianic cult of mindless fanboys, as a return to the original EverQuest, and to a "real" MMO, whatever the hell that meant. Anyone who posted anything that deviated from The Vision was repeatedly ripped a new one by those fanboys, and it caused a LOT of bad blood, both here and at other forums.
For SWG, it's because both Lucas Arts and SOE fundamentally changed the game that people had been paying to play for several years, and they did so in the direct aftermath of a paid expansion pack. People who'd spent years working on characters like Creature Handlers suddenly found all of their playtime, their toons, and all their work gone in an instant, never to return.
The direct aftermath of and outcry over the NGE was so huge that it made real newspapers, like the NYT. It's nothing like Vanguard at all. And the pre- and post-CU/NGE games are radically different games from each other. That's why there are two different forums. It was such a huge, huge thing to happen to one of these games, and the bitterness it engendered is massive.
I disagree with this, because I believe that fanbois share an equal part with the haters in making it worse.
Er, no. The mindless Brad cultists were the ones who equated ANY dissent, criticism, or disagreement with The Vision as proof that whoever made that statement was just a "WoW kiddie", or that they were too stupid, immature, or n00bish to understand a "deep" and "complex" game like Vanguard. They were the ones who went far and wide to many different forums sowing those seeds for years, and who created the vast majority of the bad blood that exists for this game.
For example, this blog post from May 2006 about the beta testers:
That was symptomatic of this game's development cycle, and of the rabid Brad cultists who ruined this game for many people before it ever launched.
The "haters" that you hear about? Most of them, if you take the time to read through their posts, actually had reasonable criticisms of the game, or questioned things like the game's readiness for release, or various game mechanics. The rabid anti-SOE folks are a small minority of the whole. And yet, even to this day, anyone who had a contradictory opinion about something related to this game is considered a "hater" instead of a critic, which is what most of them actually are.
I absolutely agree with this, but Sigil is responsible for the hype, and not the players of Vanguard, yet I still feel like we are blamed for their lies.
Sigil did their part, but the Brad cultists did a VERY thorough job of hyping this game, so much so that Brad himself had to finally step in and speak to a lot of the bullshit his own fanboys were spreading about the game, but by then it was too late. The damage was already done.
Still, none of this means that there should be a new VG forum. If anything, this one should stand on its own, warts and all, as a testament of how NOT to develop, hype, or release an MMO in 2007. The mistakes that Vanguard suffered are entirely self-inflicted, and people should get the whole picture of that before they decide to buy the game or not.
No need to take it personal, I dont even know if you were around for the awful mess that was this forum in the beginning. I am just saying that the old Vanguard followers set a tone in here that was abusive, insulting, filled with lies and imaginary facts that they shovelled down anyones throat, threats and god knows what... People were trying to keep it civil for a long time, people were trying hard to discuss the problems in beta that would create a less than succesful launch, but were immediatly attacked and harassed until silenced. Official Vanguard beta forum was a calm relaxing puddle of peace compared to the monkey poop tossing in this forum when it opened and yes, the problem began and ended with the Vanguard followers, they WERE the most abusive. All I am saying that a tone was set in here.... It was set in here by the followers of Vanguard. It was impossible to keep any kind of discussion constructive, because of them, absolutly impossible. In the end EVERYONE, every last one of the people that entered htis forum had the same attitude that was set by these first three-four weeks, no matter how good their intentions in the beginning. Of course the followers of Vanguard still see themselves as the suffering, misunderstood victims, people are used to that by now. Fact still remains... If people set a tone in their own forum, dont come complaining that tone strikes back at them later. As I said, a lesson is to be learned here for those that are willing to learn. Sadly... people seldom do. Now please... Try again to say this mess is all my fault. (by the way, I'd like for you to quote where I ever did that - I believe I said that the blame was on blind haters, who, I believe outnumbered the Vanbois - unless you are saying you are a blind hater, I don't blame someone who simply saw too many problems with vanguard for it to be playable, or any person who raised constructive criticism) Random attacks instead of trying to understand both sides of an argument, (and yet, you will not admit that blind haters share any of the responsibilty in the forums demise, isn't that the other side of your argument?) is kind of the reason you have an empty game no people even want to try. Its not so much about the game as it is that people dont want anything to do with a community that in history has acted worse than the worst of WoW kids.
I have quoted this, because in a previous post, Kas says he has been 'extremely polite' - so I have highlighted all those polite statements in pink.
The blue are just responses to statements that just irked me.
I believe that most haters of Vanguard feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed and carry a huge grudge.
I believe that most haters of SWG feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed (with the NGE of course) and carry a huge grudge.
You have to admit that the two statements above are true, and are indicative of the similarity I was referring to.
The problem is, those feelings of betrayal and of being lied to exist for two VERY different reasons.
For Vanguard, it's because the game was over-hyped, particularly by Brad McQuaid and his messianic cult of mindless fanboys, as a return to the original EverQuest, and to a "real" MMO, whatever the hell that meant. Anyone who posted anything that deviated from The Vision was repeatedly ripped a new one by those fanboys, and it caused a LOT of bad blood, both here and at other forums.
For SWG, it's because both Lucas Arts and SOE fundamentally changed the game that people had been paying to play for several years, and they did so in the direct aftermath of a paid expansion pack. People who'd spent years working on characters like Creature Handlers suddenly found all of their playtime, their toons, and all their work gone in an instant, never to return.
The direct aftermath of and outcry over the NGE was so huge that it made real newspapers, like the NYT. It's nothing like Vanguard at all. And the pre- and post-CU/NGE games are radically different games from each other. That's why there are two different forums. It was such a huge, huge thing to happen to one of these games, and the bitterness it engendered is massive.
Why do you keep trying to convince me of something I agreed with you on? I directly stated that I was not comparing the game histories, but only the effect. I fully admitted the histories were different, and yet, you keep trying to prove to me that the histories were different. When someone agrees with you, you don't need to continue to add details supporting your argument. Why does it matter that their histories are different if it led to a similar effect? Wait, don't answer that, I don't want to hear another history lesson about the NGE.
I disagree with this, because I believe that fanbois share an equal part with the haters in making it worse.
Er, no. The mindless Brad cultists were the ones who equated ANY dissent, criticism, or disagreement with The Vision as proof that whoever made that statement was just a "WoW kiddie", or that they were too stupid, immature, or n00bish to understand a "deep" and "complex" game like Vanguard. They were the ones who went far and wide to many different forums sowing those seeds for years, and who created the vast majority of the bad blood that exists for this game.
For example, this blog post from May 2006 about the beta testers:
Do you really want me to go find an earlier flame-baiting hate fest post on Vanguard? You know I can do it. And then you'll find an earlier fanbois thread. This is a ludicrous way of proving your point. Stop trying to convince me 'who started it' because that is the argument of a child. Adults accept the part they played in an argument, why can't you?
That was symptomatic of this game's development cycle, and of the rabid Brad cultists who ruined this game for many people before it ever launched.
The "haters" that you hear about? Most of them, if you take the time to read through their posts, actually had reasonable criticisms of the game, or questioned things like the game's readiness for release, or various game mechanics. The rabid anti-SOE folks are a small minority of the whole. And yet, even to this day, anyone who had a contradictory opinion about something related to this game is considered a "hater" instead of a critic, which is what most of them actually are.
I absolutely agree with this, but Sigil is responsible for the hype, and not the players of Vanguard, yet I still feel like we are blamed for their lies.
Sigil did their part, but the Brad cultists did a VERY thorough job of hyping this game, so much so that Brad himself had to finally step in and speak to a lot of the bullshit his own fanboys were spreading about the game, but by then it was too late. The damage was already done.
Still, none of this means that there should be a new VG forum. If anything, this one should stand on its own, warts and all, as a testament of how NOT to develop, hype, or release an MMO in 2007. The mistakes that Vanguard suffered are entirely self-inflicted, and people should get the whole picture of that before they decide to buy the game or not.
Point taken. People who loved EQ were set to love Vanguard, and thus, hyped the game. Yet I would guess that the vast majority of these extremists were so let down by Vanguard's reality, they quickly turned to the dark side and became the worst of the blind haters. Leaving such an insignificant group of Brad worshipers, but increasing the blind haters to the point that these forums have become intolerable. Truth be told, we may actually be talking about the very same people who are to blame....I'll have to think about that some more.
Ok, I give up on trying to meet you in the middle. Statements like 'messianic cultists' prove to me that you are beyond a level-headed debate who is able to see that it takes two to tango. You claim that the only reason Vanguard forums are in this state is solely the responsibility of a select few fans, I halfway agree with you, but add that there were blind haters as well......we can let others decide which argument sounds more plausible.
Firstly, there is WAY too much quoting going on in this thread.
Secondly, this game failed.
Thirdly, I will stick around to pay out on anyone who is still playing this game. You are simply propagating the idea to companies like Sigil and SOE that people are happy to fork out for an unfinished, overhyped product. You help lower the standard of MMOs. Its an issue of principle.
You are simply propagating the idea to companies like Sigil and SOE that people are happy to fork out for an unfinished, overhyped product. You help lower the standard of MMOs. Its an issue of principle.
Probably the #1 super point that vanbois are missing. This is 100% why this forums is how it is. People actually standing up and calling garbage .... garbage. Just an addition. This is not to say that vanguard won't be good one day. Its the point that it was released and continued to be a steamy one.
Statements like 'messianic cultists' prove to me that you are beyond a level-headed debate who is able to see that it takes two to tango.
There's a HUGE difference between someone who likes Vanguard and the Brad cultists I was talking about. If you can't see the distinction, that's not my fault or my problem.
There are folks here who like VG, but who can also admit the game's flaws. They're NOT the people I'm talking about.
What I'm talking about are the Brad cultists-- the hardest of the hardocre Vanguard fans who spent years going to different forums, including this one, to equate dissent with being an immature "WoW kiddie". They considered any suggestions that deviated from The Vision as something that only n00bs who didn't want to work for anything and wanted a max level toon with top gear in a week would want. Even simple things like detailed maps got these guys riled up, for frack's sake.
Those guys are the ones who spent years sowing the bad blood that exists for this game. They're the ones who pissed people off, and who rubbed people the wrong way with regards to VG.
Brad cultist =/= current Vanguard fans. I CAN tell the difference. And they're two totally distinct groups.
But that still doesn't mean that this forum needs to be split. There hasn't been a single good reason presented as to why it should. The fall of VG is nowhere near what happened to SWG, and doesn't bring anywhere near that level of wank or bitterness. Hence, this place should stay as it is as a lesson for others.
Firstly, there is WAY too much quoting going on in this thread. Secondly, this game failed. Thirdly, I will stick around to pay out on anyone who is still playing this game. You are simply propagating the idea to companies like Sigil and SOE that people are happy to fork out for an unfinished, overhyped product. You help lower the standard of MMOs. Its an issue of principle.
Yes, I am to blame for the over quoting.
But this is exactly the type of post that led to this thread in the first place. I'll match your argument word for word to show you how little substence it has.
Firstly, I have quoted too much in this thread (/snicker). Secondly, this game has not failed yet. Thirdly I will stick around to pay out on anyone who is still hating this game. You are simply propagating the idea to companies that they must cater to every whim of every player, never reach beyond what is conventionally considered possible with a game, that companies must pander to focus groups out of fear of massive community retribution, stifling all creativity so that we end up with bland, safe, easily digestable mmo's that hold peoples interest for days instead of years because the company is too scared to go out on a limb. You help lower the standard of MMO's. Its an issue of principle, creative liscense and flexibility of an mmo audience who wants something new.
Did I convince you? No? Well, you didn't convince me either......and so the argument continues....and bores me to death. And reinforces that you need a forum where you can rehash this argument to like-minded people.
You are simply propagating the idea to companies like Sigil and SOE that people are happy to fork out for an unfinished, overhyped product. You help lower the standard of MMOs. Its an issue of principle.
Probably the #1 super point that vanbois are missing. This is 100% why this forums is how it is. People actually standing up and calling garbage .... garbage. Just an addition. This is not to say that vanguard won't be good one day. Its the point that it was released and continued to be a steamy one.
beta tester for 7 months
post beta 4 months
Vanbois haven't missed the point, they simply disagree with you. You should know the difference.
As you can see, most of the thread has constructive posts with both pro's and con's about the anticipated Vanguard.
There happen to be, however, one Vanbois: Meeks
And it also had one blind hater: Kunarick
So, where did it all start? From what I could see, we had a blind hater and a vanbois start the problem in the exact same thread. So I reiterate that if we want to get technical, both extremes are to blame for starting it, but in reality, no one really responded to their posts.
As an interesting side note, look at Garthilk's post on the still unreleased WoW......oops, on that one.
The next one I found, still leads us to wonder, who really started the fight? This thread definately starts with a Vanbois, Regal_TR yet, he is quickly shut down by both skeptics and fans alike. He posts a lot at the beginning of the thread, but so many responses called out his moronic unconstructive behavior, he left the thread. Its hard to say he is the one who started it, when he admittedly was just a high school kiddo at the time, and got shut down so quickly. The rest of the thread seems to be a fairly constructive debate of soloing vs. raiding in mmo's, and certainly none of us would say that debate is exclusive to Vanguard.
The interesting side note here: Aradune posts, and there are a few 'lies' even in what i believe is his first Vanguard post on this forum. He says Vanguard focus will be on casually grouping, regular grouping and (/snicker) raiding. As we all should know, the focus of Vanguard turned out to actually be soloing, small grouping and regular grouping and raids are still not in the game.
This is an early one that I just thought interesting, its not really a vanbois vs. hater thread in anyway, imo, but it does show interestingly how wrong people turned out to be anticipating the game. It definately shows a 'faith' that the game would be a hit, but no one is overly rude or condescending in anyway that I could see. The OP certainly was forshadowing a major factor in Vanguard's failed release.
Ok, now, after that, I see many threads 'hoping' Vanguard will be great, some skeptics but no real thread that was a bash fest, all pretty civil discussion.. So, next, I looked for the first thread with the 'go back to WoW' concept, and the first 'this game will bite' (meaning someone who used unconstructive criticism threads, and found this:
In my opinion, it seems to me that the 'fans' tried to rationally convince this person, but the OP continually used insindiary language. His criticism may have validity, but he is the first, I found, that used a 'flame-baiting' attitude. He was obnoxious and rude to very respectful fans. I don't think you can call any one of the supporters of Vanguard in this thread as being disrespectful, certainly the fans all turned out to be wrong, but not disrespectful. I do however see the OP being completely rude.
The thread is also interesting because it is the earliest I see that people began defending their 'faith' in the game. Personally, it looked to me like both sides were to blame after this early thread, because it is after this you start seeing the defenders being rude. People got excited about a game, nay-sayers called them fools, they defended themselves, the haters pushed the buttons again, the fans began meeting fire with fire and the spiral began. Previous to this thread, it looks as if the vast majority of criticism was met with level headed responses. Even in this thread, most fans tried to keep it together.
I realize this doesn't prove a thing to anyone but me and others who already share my opinion. I look at the history and see validation for what I always thought, the nay-sayers became disrespectful before the fans turned into Vanbois, the defenders of the game in the above thread were still trying to keep it together it seems, but the haters had found the button to push, and began pushing harder after this point. It was exaserbated by the fans being so wrong in hindsight....about raids, about performance, about SOE, and the list goes on. But instead of haters feeling satisfied with being right after all the negatives of Vanguard became reality, they had to start kicking a man when he's down, rubbing salt in the wounds and very disrespectfully saying 'i told you so' like a child. It looks to me that it took a very, very long time of haters prodding and prodding fans of the game before the fans became Vanbois and started meeting fire with fire. I am the first to admit, that two wrongs don't make a right, and so I blame the Vanbois equally for making a worsening situation the worst.
I know, that the haters of Vanguard will see this history in a completely different light. It is the nature of humans and what we 'feel' is the 'truth'.
So I finish my over-zealous posting where I began, I think the community is so divided over Vanguard, it would be wise for Vanguard to diversify its forum topics, so that mmorpg can provide more choice when it comes to what we want to discuss on each visit, and by giving us more choices, I think we all can find greater satisfaction in mmorpg. Through the course of this discussion, I have come to think this concept could be applied to multiple game forums, and it would improve this website dramatically.
I imagine an mmorpg where when I feel like debating, I can debate. When I feel like discussing with like-minded players, I can make that choice. When I feel like seeing what is wrong with a certain mmo, I can click on their complaint desk. And because there would be an appropriate place to say everything we want to say, our threads would cease to be hijacked. Mods wouldn't get such a bad rap for 'limiting our free speech' because it would become starkly obvious when someone was posting in the wrong forum.
I admit, I began this post with emotion, because of frustrations I have had with my most frequented forum. But I think that I have a very rational suggestion for addressing a problem which extends beyond the Vanguard forums.
And lastly, looking at those early Vanguard threads, brought back memories how this website used to be. I think with some tweaking, it could return to a meaningful, respectful discussion of all the mmo's out there. However, if we are going full throttle down the same road we've been on recently, I think I'm going to get off this road and find a better highway.
The other interesting tidbit I am noticing is the similarities between these early Vanguard threads and the current WAR and AoC threads. I warn WAR and AoC fans to be wary, you just might not get what you expect, and I warn WAR and AoC naysayers, show some respect, after all they aren't stupid for anticipating those games positively, they are just hopeful, as we all should be about future games. I hope this site hasn't devolved so much that we are going to see the same crap all over again we have seen with the Vanguard forums.
I have to ask, if the game is so engaging, why are you on here writing this thesis?
1. When in this thread did I talk about Vanguard being engaging? (I happen to think it is, but that's beside the point); I said I played it despite its problems and I want to see the forums improve. There is nothing in this thread that would indicate in anyway that I am trying to convince people Vanguard is great. Quite the opposite, I've acknowledged that most don't like it. I even advised one person to not re-sub right now if he didn't like it before, that it still needs some time because all the problems that drove him away have diminished but not disappeared.
2. I play Vanguard casually and I am taking my time with it. I love the game, but the bugs start to wear on you if you don't manage your game time efficiently. If you go full force, you will get frustrated and quit and come to mmorpg to register your disgust throughout the world.
3. I play Vanguard casually also because, one of its main shortcoming's is a lack of content. So again, I am managing my time. Why should I rush to 50 if there isn't raid content in? I don't want to be logging in with nothing to do.
4. My main comp is down atm....and this p.o.s. can barely run WoW, much less Vanguard.
5. I'm an idiot and a little mad at myself for doing it as well.
6. I've been in the mood to debate lately. Don't worry it will fade....in fact...there, it's gone. I'm going to bed.
But if your actual intent was to burn me....sorry for having an answer.
Vanguard is more than satisfying at the moment, evloving rapidly to meet the highest preformance and content standards. People who dont have an active account cant witness it so it is pointless to debate with them.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
Vanguard is more than satisfying at the moment, evloving rapidly to meet the highest preformance and content standards. People who dont have an active account cant witness it so it is pointless to debate with them.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Vanguard is more than satisfying at the moment, evloving rapidly to meet the highest preformance and content standards. People who dont have an active account cant witness it so it is pointless to debate with them.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
More stable, more quests and better animantion for the most part, also more crafted items. It is not perfect but it is not the game that existed before SOEs buy out. There are several level 40s area that have not totally been exploxed yet. In all I feel they should re-up for at least 1 month. If after that month they still feel the same I would have no issues with them commenting for about 3 months then I would tell them to re-up again after that 3 months.
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
Vanguard is more than satisfying at the moment, evloving rapidly to meet the highest preformance and content standards. People who dont have an active account cant witness it so it is pointless to debate with them.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
Agricola1,
I'm not going to get in the middle of you and swordmark45's debate, but we can have our own. First, I need to know specifically what it is in Vanguard that made you quit. I didn't play the game until recently, so I don't know what problems actually existed other than what was described on the forums. So, if you give me a list of why you quit, I will let you know if they still exist, to what degree, and if I would recommend coming back. That's all I can offer you at this point.
Thanks
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Originally posted by swordmark45 More stable, more quests and better animantion for the most part, also more crafted items. It is not perfect but it is not the game that existed before SOEs buy out. There are several level 40s area that have not totally been exploxed yet.
Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world?
Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together? Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal?
From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates.
However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world.
For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
Vanguard is more than satisfying at the moment, evloving rapidly to meet the highest preformance and content standards. People who dont have an active account cant witness it so it is pointless to debate with them.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
Agricola1,
I'm not going to get in the middle of you and swordmark45's debate, but we can have our own. First, I need to know specifically what it is in Vanguard that made you quit. I didn't play the game until recently, so I don't know what problems actually existed other than what was described on the forums. So, if you give me a list of why you quit, I will let you know if they still exist, to what degree, and if I would recommend coming back. That's all I can offer you at this point.
Thanks
I never subscribed in the first place due to being a card carrying member of the SOE haters club and having viewed VG before release and seeing how craptastic it was. Friends nearly convinced my GF to pre-order but I got that out of her head, and she was glad I did after release.
You see I have seen VG on someone elses comp, it sucked that bad that I didn't need to try it for myself. I had friends (mostly my GFs friends) who tried to convince me to get VG, they all believed in Brad and the community. "It's running in debug mode, it'll be great when released" after release it became "Hey give them a chance nearly all MMOs are released unfinished" after a few months became "It's Vandead!". These were the people that tried to convince me and my GF to get DnL until that settlers of Ganareth incident sent it all down the toilet.
The biggest problem is that no matter what changes are made the game is still "Vandead", unless those changes can ressurect half of the original 200k subs the game will remain "Vandead". If Mcquaid had put as much energy into listening to his staff as he did into BSing MS and every MMO gamer out there things would be different. But as it stands a few patches aren't gonna make any difference to the amount of subs for the remainder of this year. SOE need to make VG a pretty stunning game to get back subs and to be honest VG has too much holding it back.
As for the improvements well I know what they are and yes it will make the game alot better but the damage has been done and SOE cannot patch in another 200k active subscribers. The improvements won't be enough as SOE is running it on a skeleton crew and I fear that VG despite having potential will fade away. This is revenge for the flames I got when it was a beta forum, you questioned the Vision you got burnt alive in the town square to the sound of cheering Mcquaid followers.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world?
Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together? Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal?
From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates.
However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world.
For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
Lidane,
I am not swordmark45, so keep in mind that he is not the one responding to this post (the person you quoted). I will try to answer your questions though.
First off, I am more of a sandbox oriented player. I loved SWG the way it was Pre-NGE, so my opinions of a good game may differ than yours. I feel that the world does have soul...a place that I would want to build my character. Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I feel my actions in the world have meaning, but more so in the Diplomacy and crafting sphere. The stories for those spheres seem convincing enough that I am doing my part. I also feel like I am doing my part for my guild and for the Vanguard community by pioneering and setting the tone for the economy and overall community feel of the game.
I haven't seen NPC's really interact with each other, and the non-player initiated responses from the NPC's are repetitive and sometimes annoying. I do see some ambient life in the wilderness around the cities, but haven't seen any farther away from them. I don't have much of a problem with that, since I am not paying attention to that kind of stuff in the first place. I also remember SWG the way it was and how I wished there wasn't so many spawns in areas that you could build your house. Keep in mind that player houses are implemented and soon guild houses will be. There needs to be open "dead" space for those houses, without little critters spawning in your houses.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. I feel that Vanguard is not the right sort of game for you. Perhaps a more story oriented game would suit your tastes, such as WOW, LoTRO, & the EQ games.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I never subscribed in the first place due to being a card carrying member of the SOE haters club and having viewed VG before release and seeing how craptastic it was. Friends nearly convinced my GF to pre-order but I got that out of her head, and she was glad I did after release.
You see I have seen VG on someone elses comp, it sucked that bad that I didn't need to try it for myself. I had friends (mostly my GFs friends) who tried to convince me to get VG, they all believed in Brad and the community. "It's running in debug mode, it'll be great when released" after release it became "Hey give them a chance nearly all MMOs are released unfinished" after a few months became "It's Vandead!". These were the people that tried to convince me and my GF to get DnL until that settlers of Ganareth incident sent it all down the toilet.
The biggest problem is that no matter what changes are made the game is still "Vandead", unless those changes can ressurect half of the original 200k subs the game will remain "Vandead". If Mcquaid had put as much energy into listening to his staff as he did into BSing MS and every MMO gamer out there things would be different. But as it stands a few patches aren't gonna make any difference to the amount of subs for the remainder of this year. SOE need to make VG a pretty stunning game to get back subs and to be honest VG has too much holding it back.
As for the improvements well I know what they are and yes it will make the game alot better but the damage has been done and SOE cannot patch in another 200k active subscribers. The improvements won't be enough as SOE is running it on a skeleton crew and I fear that VG despite having potential will fade away. This is revenge for the flames I got when it was a beta forum, you questioned the Vision you got burnt alive in the town square to the sound of cheering Mcquaid followers.
I'm not a Mquaid follower and never was. I read up on this game and followed it, just like I follow all upcoming releases that sound good on paper. I didn't Beta this game, didn't want to, and I didn't buy it at release due to all the negative publicity. So, there is no need to lump me with all the other Vanbois out there. I play games that appeal to me and that I feel are fun. I don't play what others tell me to.
Since you don't have any questions for me, I have some for you. Why do you browse the Vanguard forums if you aren't interested in the game? You have never even played it, so why do you even feel the need to talk bad about it? I at least hold my tongue about games I have never played. If you hate SOE, why even browse SOE MMORPG game forums in the first place. The adult thing to do when you don't like something is to say something to the people who are responsible for your grief, if the cause of that grief was unjustified, then walk away. If you were griefed bad enough and the person that griefed you broke a law, you can file a lawsuit against them. Otherwise, it is pretty childish to come to a forum that is for a game that you have never played, don't plan on playing, and you hate the company that owns it.
I don't like asian grindfest games for the most part, but I don't go to their forums and tell them how much I hate it and how much I hate their games and ask if it has improved when I don't even plan to play it in the first place. I was taking you seriously at first, but after that post it is kind of hard. Mature adults just don't visit forums that belong to games they do not support or never plan to play due to them hating the company behind it. Mature adults instead post on their own forums constructively, play their game, or get on with real life.
Sorry you were disappointed in your previous game, I was too, but holding a grudge over it is silly at best. They are just games and you shouldn't have your life revolve around them. That's what it sounds like when you get so upset over a game to "hate" a company and then troll the forums that belong to a game that you don't even play or plan to play.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Originally posted by Lidane Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world? Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together? Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal? From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates. However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world. For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
Lidane,
I am not swordmark45, so keep in mind that he is not the one responding to this post (the person you quoted). I will try to answer your questions though.
First off, I am more of a sandbox oriented player. I loved SWG the way it was Pre-NGE, so my opinions of a good game may differ than yours. I feel that the world does have soul...a place that I would want to build my character. Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I feel my actions in the world have meaning, but more so in the Diplomacy and crafting sphere. The stories for those spheres seem convincing enough that I am doing my part. I also feel like I am doing my part for my guild and for the Vanguard community by pioneering and setting the tone for the economy and overall community feel of the game.
I haven't seen NPC's really interact with each other, and the non-player initiated responses from the NPC's are repetitive and sometimes annoying. I do see some ambient life in the wilderness around the cities, but haven't seen any farther away from them. I don't have much of a problem with that, since I am not paying attention to that kind of stuff in the first place. I also remember SWG the way it was and how I wished there wasn't so many spawns in areas that you could build your house. Keep in mind that player houses are implemented and soon guild houses will be. There needs to be open "dead" space for those houses, without little critters spawning in your houses.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. I feel that Vanguard is not the right sort of game for you. Perhaps a more story oriented game would suit your tastes, such as WOW, LoTRO, & the EQ games.
I pretty much agree with Lidane on this, and I think you've pretty much cemented my opinion that Vanguard is still a terrible game.
If you never cared about the quality of the writing or the coherence of the world's lore -- in other words, if you never understood what people like Lidane and I felt was wrong with the game in the first place -- then really it makes no sense to us when you say the game is better now. If you think the world design (including geography, town setup, and points of interest) was never a problem, then you and I have very different ideas of what a good RPG needs to contain.
I could not care less about player housing or guild housing, so its inclusion means nothing to me. The game never ran poorly on my computer, so performance improvements will not affect my opinion. I think the crafting system is completely ridiculous, so adding more recipes without changing the system does not count as an improvement for me.
No, I don't think I need to waste money resubscribing for another month of hell to know the game is still a bad one.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
See this is where the essential disagreement between us comes from. Most Vanguard players feel that the haters created the hell hole, while the haters think it was the players that created the hell hole.
I am only suggesting that we separate people who felt so let down by Vanguard that they began to hate from the people who despite its problems, still enjoy it. Because, we are never going to convince each other who started the rift.
If we were adults, we would say that there is enough blame to pass around. Extreme, blind haters existed from the moment Vanguard was announced (there are many who left EQ1 directly stating that they would never play a Sony game or a Brad game again, extreme Brad worshipers existed from the moment Vanguard was announced, they are the ones who were so in awe of EQ1 they never noticed its massive problems. We should move away from letting these extremists rule this forum in any fashion, I believe my suggestion would be a step in the right direction.
I think you are still misunderstanding my comparison. I agree with you 100% that you cannot compare the history of these two games, what I am saying is that both histories, very different in the details, led to a very similar split in the community.
I believe that most haters of Vanguard feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed and carry a huge grudge.
I believe that most haters of SWG feel lied to, betrayed, underwhelmed (with the NGE of course) and carry a huge grudge.
You have to admit that the two statements above are true, and are indicative of the similarity I was referring to.
I disagree with this, because I believe that fanbois share an equal part with the haters in making it worse.
I absolutely agree with this, but Sigil is responsible for the hype, and not the players of Vanguard, yet I still feel like we are blamed for their lies.
I have highlighted all the places you have been extremely polite in pink. I also went back to one of your earlier posts that I quoted and did the same. Could you please quote me and do the same for every place I have been rude or insulting?
The problem is, those feelings of betrayal and of being lied to exist for two VERY different reasons.
For Vanguard, it's because the game was over-hyped, particularly by Brad McQuaid and his messianic cult of mindless fanboys, as a return to the original EverQuest, and to a "real" MMO, whatever the hell that meant. Anyone who posted anything that deviated from The Vision was repeatedly ripped a new one by those fanboys, and it caused a LOT of bad blood, both here and at other forums.
For SWG, it's because both Lucas Arts and SOE fundamentally changed the game that people had been paying to play for several years, and they did so in the direct aftermath of a paid expansion pack. People who'd spent years working on characters like Creature Handlers suddenly found all of their playtime, their toons, and all their work gone in an instant, never to return.
The direct aftermath of and outcry over the NGE was so huge that it made real newspapers, like the NYT. It's nothing like Vanguard at all. And the pre- and post-CU/NGE games are radically different games from each other. That's why there are two different forums. It was such a huge, huge thing to happen to one of these games, and the bitterness it engendered is massive.
Er, no. The mindless Brad cultists were the ones who equated ANY dissent, criticism, or disagreement with The Vision as proof that whoever made that statement was just a "WoW kiddie", or that they were too stupid, immature, or n00bish to understand a "deep" and "complex" game like Vanguard. They were the ones who went far and wide to many different forums sowing those seeds for years, and who created the vast majority of the bad blood that exists for this game.
For example, this blog post from May 2006 about the beta testers:
http://hgamer.blogspot.com/2006/05/vanguard-beta-in-trouble.html
That was symptomatic of this game's development cycle, and of the rabid Brad cultists who ruined this game for many people before it ever launched.
The "haters" that you hear about? Most of them, if you take the time to read through their posts, actually had reasonable criticisms of the game, or questioned things like the game's readiness for release, or various game mechanics. The rabid anti-SOE folks are a small minority of the whole. And yet, even to this day, anyone who had a contradictory opinion about something related to this game is considered a "hater" instead of a critic, which is what most of them actually are.
Sigil did their part, but the Brad cultists did a VERY thorough job of hyping this game, so much so that Brad himself had to finally step in and speak to a lot of the bullshit his own fanboys were spreading about the game, but by then it was too late. The damage was already done.
Still, none of this means that there should be a new VG forum. If anything, this one should stand on its own, warts and all, as a testament of how NOT to develop, hype, or release an MMO in 2007. The mistakes that Vanguard suffered are entirely self-inflicted, and people should get the whole picture of that before they decide to buy the game or not.
I have quoted this, because in a previous post, Kas says he has been 'extremely polite' - so I have highlighted all those polite statements in pink.
The blue are just responses to statements that just irked me.
The problem is, those feelings of betrayal and of being lied to exist for two VERY different reasons.
For Vanguard, it's because the game was over-hyped, particularly by Brad McQuaid and his messianic cult of mindless fanboys, as a return to the original EverQuest, and to a "real" MMO, whatever the hell that meant. Anyone who posted anything that deviated from The Vision was repeatedly ripped a new one by those fanboys, and it caused a LOT of bad blood, both here and at other forums.
For SWG, it's because both Lucas Arts and SOE fundamentally changed the game that people had been paying to play for several years, and they did so in the direct aftermath of a paid expansion pack. People who'd spent years working on characters like Creature Handlers suddenly found all of their playtime, their toons, and all their work gone in an instant, never to return.
The direct aftermath of and outcry over the NGE was so huge that it made real newspapers, like the NYT. It's nothing like Vanguard at all. And the pre- and post-CU/NGE games are radically different games from each other. That's why there are two different forums. It was such a huge, huge thing to happen to one of these games, and the bitterness it engendered is massive.
Why do you keep trying to convince me of something I agreed with you on? I directly stated that I was not comparing the game histories, but only the effect. I fully admitted the histories were different, and yet, you keep trying to prove to me that the histories were different. When someone agrees with you, you don't need to continue to add details supporting your argument. Why does it matter that their histories are different if it led to a similar effect? Wait, don't answer that, I don't want to hear another history lesson about the NGE.
Er, no. The mindless Brad cultists were the ones who equated ANY dissent, criticism, or disagreement with The Vision as proof that whoever made that statement was just a "WoW kiddie", or that they were too stupid, immature, or n00bish to understand a "deep" and "complex" game like Vanguard. They were the ones who went far and wide to many different forums sowing those seeds for years, and who created the vast majority of the bad blood that exists for this game.
For example, this blog post from May 2006 about the beta testers:
http://hgamer.blogspot.com/2006/05/vanguard-beta-in-trouble.html
Do you really want me to go find an earlier flame-baiting hate fest post on Vanguard? You know I can do it. And then you'll find an earlier fanbois thread. This is a ludicrous way of proving your point. Stop trying to convince me 'who started it' because that is the argument of a child. Adults accept the part they played in an argument, why can't you?
That was symptomatic of this game's development cycle, and of the rabid Brad cultists who ruined this game for many people before it ever launched.
The "haters" that you hear about? Most of them, if you take the time to read through their posts, actually had reasonable criticisms of the game, or questioned things like the game's readiness for release, or various game mechanics. The rabid anti-SOE folks are a small minority of the whole. And yet, even to this day, anyone who had a contradictory opinion about something related to this game is considered a "hater" instead of a critic, which is what most of them actually are.
I absolutely agree with this, but Sigil is responsible for the hype, and not the players of Vanguard, yet I still feel like we are blamed for their lies.
Sigil did their part, but the Brad cultists did a VERY thorough job of hyping this game, so much so that Brad himself had to finally step in and speak to a lot of the bullshit his own fanboys were spreading about the game, but by then it was too late. The damage was already done.
Still, none of this means that there should be a new VG forum. If anything, this one should stand on its own, warts and all, as a testament of how NOT to develop, hype, or release an MMO in 2007. The mistakes that Vanguard suffered are entirely self-inflicted, and people should get the whole picture of that before they decide to buy the game or not.
Point taken. People who loved EQ were set to love Vanguard, and thus, hyped the game. Yet I would guess that the vast majority of these extremists were so let down by Vanguard's reality, they quickly turned to the dark side and became the worst of the blind haters. Leaving such an insignificant group of Brad worshipers, but increasing the blind haters to the point that these forums have become intolerable. Truth be told, we may actually be talking about the very same people who are to blame....I'll have to think about that some more.
Ok, I give up on trying to meet you in the middle. Statements like 'messianic cultists' prove to me that you are beyond a level-headed debate who is able to see that it takes two to tango. You claim that the only reason Vanguard forums are in this state is solely the responsibility of a select few fans, I halfway agree with you, but add that there were blind haters as well......we can let others decide which argument sounds more plausible.
Secondly, this game failed.
Thirdly, I will stick around to pay out on anyone who is still playing this game. You are simply propagating the idea to companies like Sigil and SOE that people are happy to fork out for an unfinished, overhyped product. You help lower the standard of MMOs. Its an issue of principle.
Probably the #1 super point that vanbois are missing. This is 100% why this forums is how it is. People actually standing up and calling garbage .... garbage. Just an addition. This is not to say that vanguard won't be good one day. Its the point that it was released and continued to be a steamy one.
beta tester for 7 months
post beta 4 months
There's a HUGE difference between someone who likes Vanguard and the Brad cultists I was talking about. If you can't see the distinction, that's not my fault or my problem.
There are folks here who like VG, but who can also admit the game's flaws. They're NOT the people I'm talking about.
What I'm talking about are the Brad cultists-- the hardest of the hardocre Vanguard fans who spent years going to different forums, including this one, to equate dissent with being an immature "WoW kiddie". They considered any suggestions that deviated from The Vision as something that only n00bs who didn't want to work for anything and wanted a max level toon with top gear in a week would want. Even simple things like detailed maps got these guys riled up, for frack's sake.
Those guys are the ones who spent years sowing the bad blood that exists for this game. They're the ones who pissed people off, and who rubbed people the wrong way with regards to VG.
Brad cultist =/= current Vanguard fans. I CAN tell the difference. And they're two totally distinct groups.
But that still doesn't mean that this forum needs to be split. There hasn't been a single good reason presented as to why it should. The fall of VG is nowhere near what happened to SWG, and doesn't bring anywhere near that level of wank or bitterness. Hence, this place should stay as it is as a lesson for others.
Yes, I am to blame for the over quoting.
But this is exactly the type of post that led to this thread in the first place. I'll match your argument word for word to show you how little substence it has.
Firstly, I have quoted too much in this thread (/snicker). Secondly, this game has not failed yet. Thirdly I will stick around to pay out on anyone who is still hating this game. You are simply propagating the idea to companies that they must cater to every whim of every player, never reach beyond what is conventionally considered possible with a game, that companies must pander to focus groups out of fear of massive community retribution, stifling all creativity so that we end up with bland, safe, easily digestable mmo's that hold peoples interest for days instead of years because the company is too scared to go out on a limb. You help lower the standard of MMO's. Its an issue of principle, creative liscense and flexibility of an mmo audience who wants something new.
Did I convince you? No? Well, you didn't convince me either......and so the argument continues....and bores me to death. And reinforces that you need a forum where you can rehash this argument to like-minded people.
Probably the #1 super point that vanbois are missing. This is 100% why this forums is how it is. People actually standing up and calling garbage .... garbage. Just an addition. This is not to say that vanguard won't be good one day. Its the point that it was released and continued to be a steamy one.
beta tester for 7 months
post beta 4 months
Vanbois haven't missed the point, they simply disagree with you. You should know the difference.
Ok, as many of you may have guessed, I am probably taking this too far, but since this thread devolved into this argument:
"You get what you deserve, Vanbois started it"
I went back to look for the earliest non-constructive argument in a VG thread. I found this gem: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/18893
As you can see, most of the thread has constructive posts with both pro's and con's about the anticipated Vanguard.
There happen to be, however, one Vanbois: Meeks
And it also had one blind hater: Kunarick
So, where did it all start? From what I could see, we had a blind hater and a vanbois start the problem in the exact same thread. So I reiterate that if we want to get technical, both extremes are to blame for starting it, but in reality, no one really responded to their posts.
As an interesting side note, look at Garthilk's post on the still unreleased WoW......oops, on that one.
The next one I found, still leads us to wonder, who really started the fight? This thread definately starts with a Vanbois, Regal_TR yet, he is quickly shut down by both skeptics and fans alike. He posts a lot at the beginning of the thread, but so many responses called out his moronic unconstructive behavior, he left the thread. Its hard to say he is the one who started it, when he admittedly was just a high school kiddo at the time, and got shut down so quickly. The rest of the thread seems to be a fairly constructive debate of soloing vs. raiding in mmo's, and certainly none of us would say that debate is exclusive to Vanguard.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/36037/page/1
The interesting side note here: Aradune posts, and there are a few 'lies' even in what i believe is his first Vanguard post on this forum. He says Vanguard focus will be on casually grouping, regular grouping and (/snicker) raiding. As we all should know, the focus of Vanguard turned out to actually be soloing, small grouping and regular grouping and raids are still not in the game.
This is an early one that I just thought interesting, its not really a vanbois vs. hater thread in anyway, imo, but it does show interestingly how wrong people turned out to be anticipating the game. It definately shows a 'faith' that the game would be a hit, but no one is overly rude or condescending in anyway that I could see. The OP certainly was forshadowing a major factor in Vanguard's failed release.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/19960
Ok, now, after that, I see many threads 'hoping' Vanguard will be great, some skeptics but no real thread that was a bash fest, all pretty civil discussion.. So, next, I looked for the first thread with the 'go back to WoW' concept, and the first 'this game will bite' (meaning someone who used unconstructive criticism threads, and found this:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/39447
In my opinion, it seems to me that the 'fans' tried to rationally convince this person, but the OP continually used insindiary language. His criticism may have validity, but he is the first, I found, that used a 'flame-baiting' attitude. He was obnoxious and rude to very respectful fans. I don't think you can call any one of the supporters of Vanguard in this thread as being disrespectful, certainly the fans all turned out to be wrong, but not disrespectful. I do however see the OP being completely rude.
The thread is also interesting because it is the earliest I see that people began defending their 'faith' in the game. Personally, it looked to me like both sides were to blame after this early thread, because it is after this you start seeing the defenders being rude. People got excited about a game, nay-sayers called them fools, they defended themselves, the haters pushed the buttons again, the fans began meeting fire with fire and the spiral began. Previous to this thread, it looks as if the vast majority of criticism was met with level headed responses. Even in this thread, most fans tried to keep it together.
I realize this doesn't prove a thing to anyone but me and others who already share my opinion. I look at the history and see validation for what I always thought, the nay-sayers became disrespectful before the fans turned into Vanbois, the defenders of the game in the above thread were still trying to keep it together it seems, but the haters had found the button to push, and began pushing harder after this point. It was exaserbated by the fans being so wrong in hindsight....about raids, about performance, about SOE, and the list goes on. But instead of haters feeling satisfied with being right after all the negatives of Vanguard became reality, they had to start kicking a man when he's down, rubbing salt in the wounds and very disrespectfully saying 'i told you so' like a child. It looks to me that it took a very, very long time of haters prodding and prodding fans of the game before the fans became Vanbois and started meeting fire with fire. I am the first to admit, that two wrongs don't make a right, and so I blame the Vanbois equally for making a worsening situation the worst.
I know, that the haters of Vanguard will see this history in a completely different light. It is the nature of humans and what we 'feel' is the 'truth'.
So I finish my over-zealous posting where I began, I think the community is so divided over Vanguard, it would be wise for Vanguard to diversify its forum topics, so that mmorpg can provide more choice when it comes to what we want to discuss on each visit, and by giving us more choices, I think we all can find greater satisfaction in mmorpg. Through the course of this discussion, I have come to think this concept could be applied to multiple game forums, and it would improve this website dramatically.
I imagine an mmorpg where when I feel like debating, I can debate. When I feel like discussing with like-minded players, I can make that choice. When I feel like seeing what is wrong with a certain mmo, I can click on their complaint desk. And because there would be an appropriate place to say everything we want to say, our threads would cease to be hijacked. Mods wouldn't get such a bad rap for 'limiting our free speech' because it would become starkly obvious when someone was posting in the wrong forum.
I admit, I began this post with emotion, because of frustrations I have had with my most frequented forum. But I think that I have a very rational suggestion for addressing a problem which extends beyond the Vanguard forums.
And lastly, looking at those early Vanguard threads, brought back memories how this website used to be. I think with some tweaking, it could return to a meaningful, respectful discussion of all the mmo's out there. However, if we are going full throttle down the same road we've been on recently, I think I'm going to get off this road and find a better highway.
The other interesting tidbit I am noticing is the similarities between these early Vanguard threads and the current WAR and AoC threads. I warn WAR and AoC fans to be wary, you just might not get what you expect, and I warn WAR and AoC naysayers, show some respect, after all they aren't stupid for anticipating those games positively, they are just hopeful, as we all should be about future games. I hope this site hasn't devolved so much that we are going to see the same crap all over again we have seen with the Vanguard forums.
I have to ask, if the game is so engaging, why are you on here writing this thesis?
1. When in this thread did I talk about Vanguard being engaging? (I happen to think it is, but that's beside the point); I said I played it despite its problems and I want to see the forums improve. There is nothing in this thread that would indicate in anyway that I am trying to convince people Vanguard is great. Quite the opposite, I've acknowledged that most don't like it. I even advised one person to not re-sub right now if he didn't like it before, that it still needs some time because all the problems that drove him away have diminished but not disappeared.
2. I play Vanguard casually and I am taking my time with it. I love the game, but the bugs start to wear on you if you don't manage your game time efficiently. If you go full force, you will get frustrated and quit and come to mmorpg to register your disgust throughout the world.
3. I play Vanguard casually also because, one of its main shortcoming's is a lack of content. So again, I am managing my time. Why should I rush to 50 if there isn't raid content in? I don't want to be logging in with nothing to do.
4. My main comp is down atm....and this p.o.s. can barely run WoW, much less Vanguard.
5. I'm an idiot and a little mad at myself for doing it as well.
6. I've been in the mood to debate lately. Don't worry it will fade....in fact...there, it's gone. I'm going to bed.
But if your actual intent was to burn me....sorry for having an answer.
Vanguard is more than satisfying at the moment, evloving rapidly to meet the highest preformance and content standards.
People who dont have an active account cant witness it so it is pointless to debate with them.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
More stable, more quests and better animantion for the most part, also more crafted items. It is not perfect but it is not the game that existed before SOEs buy out. There are several level 40s area that have not totally been exploxed yet. In all I feel they should re-up for at least 1 month. If after that month they still feel the same I would have no issues with them commenting for about 3 months then I would tell them to re-up again after that 3 months.
A MMO is like life. It is something to cherish and enjoy upon in it journey. So why race to the end of it. In life at the end you die.
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
Agricola1,
I'm not going to get in the middle of you and swordmark45's debate, but we can have our own. First, I need to know specifically what it is in Vanguard that made you quit. I didn't play the game until recently, so I don't know what problems actually existed other than what was described on the forums. So, if you give me a list of why you quit, I will let you know if they still exist, to what degree, and if I would recommend coming back. That's all I can offer you at this point.
Thanks
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world?
Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together? Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal?
From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates.
However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world.
For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
totally agree. The game is no longer what they base their assumtions on. The game is no longer the game they remember playing and so all they are spouting is useless hot air.
Then tell us about this new game that you call Vanguard, how is it superior to the old VG?
Agricola1,
I'm not going to get in the middle of you and swordmark45's debate, but we can have our own. First, I need to know specifically what it is in Vanguard that made you quit. I didn't play the game until recently, so I don't know what problems actually existed other than what was described on the forums. So, if you give me a list of why you quit, I will let you know if they still exist, to what degree, and if I would recommend coming back. That's all I can offer you at this point.
Thanks
I never subscribed in the first place due to being a card carrying member of the SOE haters club and having viewed VG before release and seeing how craptastic it was. Friends nearly convinced my GF to pre-order but I got that out of her head, and she was glad I did after release.
You see I have seen VG on someone elses comp, it sucked that bad that I didn't need to try it for myself. I had friends (mostly my GFs friends) who tried to convince me to get VG, they all believed in Brad and the community. "It's running in debug mode, it'll be great when released" after release it became "Hey give them a chance nearly all MMOs are released unfinished" after a few months became "It's Vandead!". These were the people that tried to convince me and my GF to get DnL until that settlers of Ganareth incident sent it all down the toilet.
The biggest problem is that no matter what changes are made the game is still "Vandead", unless those changes can ressurect half of the original 200k subs the game will remain "Vandead". If Mcquaid had put as much energy into listening to his staff as he did into BSing MS and every MMO gamer out there things would be different. But as it stands a few patches aren't gonna make any difference to the amount of subs for the remainder of this year. SOE need to make VG a pretty stunning game to get back subs and to be honest VG has too much holding it back.
As for the improvements well I know what they are and yes it will make the game alot better but the damage has been done and SOE cannot patch in another 200k active subscribers. The improvements won't be enough as SOE is running it on a skeleton crew and I fear that VG despite having potential will fade away. This is revenge for the flames I got when it was a beta forum, you questioned the Vision you got burnt alive in the town square to the sound of cheering Mcquaid followers.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world?
Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together? Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal?
From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates.
However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world.
For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
Lidane,
I am not swordmark45, so keep in mind that he is not the one responding to this post (the person you quoted). I will try to answer your questions though.
First off, I am more of a sandbox oriented player. I loved SWG the way it was Pre-NGE, so my opinions of a good game may differ than yours. I feel that the world does have soul...a place that I would want to build my character. Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I feel my actions in the world have meaning, but more so in the Diplomacy and crafting sphere. The stories for those spheres seem convincing enough that I am doing my part. I also feel like I am doing my part for my guild and for the Vanguard community by pioneering and setting the tone for the economy and overall community feel of the game.
I haven't seen NPC's really interact with each other, and the non-player initiated responses from the NPC's are repetitive and sometimes annoying. I do see some ambient life in the wilderness around the cities, but haven't seen any farther away from them. I don't have much of a problem with that, since I am not paying attention to that kind of stuff in the first place. I also remember SWG the way it was and how I wished there wasn't so many spawns in areas that you could build your house. Keep in mind that player houses are implemented and soon guild houses will be. There needs to be open "dead" space for those houses, without little critters spawning in your houses.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. I feel that Vanguard is not the right sort of game for you. Perhaps a more story oriented game would suit your tastes, such as WOW, LoTRO, & the EQ games.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I never subscribed in the first place due to being a card carrying member of the SOE haters club and having viewed VG before release and seeing how craptastic it was. Friends nearly convinced my GF to pre-order but I got that out of her head, and she was glad I did after release.
You see I have seen VG on someone elses comp, it sucked that bad that I didn't need to try it for myself. I had friends (mostly my GFs friends) who tried to convince me to get VG, they all believed in Brad and the community. "It's running in debug mode, it'll be great when released" after release it became "Hey give them a chance nearly all MMOs are released unfinished" after a few months became "It's Vandead!". These were the people that tried to convince me and my GF to get DnL until that settlers of Ganareth incident sent it all down the toilet.
The biggest problem is that no matter what changes are made the game is still "Vandead", unless those changes can ressurect half of the original 200k subs the game will remain "Vandead". If Mcquaid had put as much energy into listening to his staff as he did into BSing MS and every MMO gamer out there things would be different. But as it stands a few patches aren't gonna make any difference to the amount of subs for the remainder of this year. SOE need to make VG a pretty stunning game to get back subs and to be honest VG has too much holding it back.
As for the improvements well I know what they are and yes it will make the game alot better but the damage has been done and SOE cannot patch in another 200k active subscribers. The improvements won't be enough as SOE is running it on a skeleton crew and I fear that VG despite having potential will fade away. This is revenge for the flames I got when it was a beta forum, you questioned the Vision you got burnt alive in the town square to the sound of cheering Mcquaid followers.
I'm not a Mquaid follower and never was. I read up on this game and followed it, just like I follow all upcoming releases that sound good on paper. I didn't Beta this game, didn't want to, and I didn't buy it at release due to all the negative publicity. So, there is no need to lump me with all the other Vanbois out there. I play games that appeal to me and that I feel are fun. I don't play what others tell me to.
Since you don't have any questions for me, I have some for you. Why do you browse the Vanguard forums if you aren't interested in the game? You have never even played it, so why do you even feel the need to talk bad about it? I at least hold my tongue about games I have never played. If you hate SOE, why even browse SOE MMORPG game forums in the first place. The adult thing to do when you don't like something is to say something to the people who are responsible for your grief, if the cause of that grief was unjustified, then walk away. If you were griefed bad enough and the person that griefed you broke a law, you can file a lawsuit against them. Otherwise, it is pretty childish to come to a forum that is for a game that you have never played, don't plan on playing, and you hate the company that owns it.
I don't like asian grindfest games for the most part, but I don't go to their forums and tell them how much I hate it and how much I hate their games and ask if it has improved when I don't even plan to play it in the first place. I was taking you seriously at first, but after that post it is kind of hard. Mature adults just don't visit forums that belong to games they do not support or never plan to play due to them hating the company behind it. Mature adults instead post on their own forums constructively, play their game, or get on with real life.
Sorry you were disappointed in your previous game, I was too, but holding a grudge over it is silly at best. They are just games and you shouldn't have your life revolve around them. That's what it sounds like when you get so upset over a game to "hate" a company and then troll the forums that belong to a game that you don't even play or plan to play.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Lidane,
I am not swordmark45, so keep in mind that he is not the one responding to this post (the person you quoted). I will try to answer your questions though.
First off, I am more of a sandbox oriented player. I loved SWG the way it was Pre-NGE, so my opinions of a good game may differ than yours. I feel that the world does have soul...a place that I would want to build my character. Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I feel my actions in the world have meaning, but more so in the Diplomacy and crafting sphere. The stories for those spheres seem convincing enough that I am doing my part. I also feel like I am doing my part for my guild and for the Vanguard community by pioneering and setting the tone for the economy and overall community feel of the game.
I haven't seen NPC's really interact with each other, and the non-player initiated responses from the NPC's are repetitive and sometimes annoying. I do see some ambient life in the wilderness around the cities, but haven't seen any farther away from them. I don't have much of a problem with that, since I am not paying attention to that kind of stuff in the first place. I also remember SWG the way it was and how I wished there wasn't so many spawns in areas that you could build your house. Keep in mind that player houses are implemented and soon guild houses will be. There needs to be open "dead" space for those houses, without little critters spawning in your houses.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. I feel that Vanguard is not the right sort of game for you. Perhaps a more story oriented game would suit your tastes, such as WOW, LoTRO, & the EQ games.
I pretty much agree with Lidane on this, and I think you've pretty much cemented my opinion that Vanguard is still a terrible game.If you never cared about the quality of the writing or the coherence of the world's lore -- in other words, if you never understood what people like Lidane and I felt was wrong with the game in the first place -- then really it makes no sense to us when you say the game is better now. If you think the world design (including geography, town setup, and points of interest) was never a problem, then you and I have very different ideas of what a good RPG needs to contain.
I could not care less about player housing or guild housing, so its inclusion means nothing to me. The game never ran poorly on my computer, so performance improvements will not affect my opinion. I think the crafting system is completely ridiculous, so adding more recipes without changing the system does not count as an improvement for me.
No, I don't think I need to waste money resubscribing for another month of hell to know the game is still a bad one.
No reason for new forums here, there's places like Silky Venom for players who want to discuss games with other people who won't disagree with them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon