Zorgo, there are plenty of other games that are 'breaking the MMO mold' without the failure of VG unmotivating them, or providing an alternative game model to draw inspiration from. The problem is, of course, is that VG failed to provide any sort of paradigm jump in the MMO, or even to the extent of being a '3rd gen' MMO (shakes head as he remembers the hype). VG's failure is not as important as you think it is. Its just a sad postscript to a semi-talented group of people who got shafted by bad management, and the thousands of customers who were misled and screwed over.
Originally posted by Lidane Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world? Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together? Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal? From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates. However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world. For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
Lidane,
I am not swordmark45, so keep in mind that he is not the one responding to this post (the person you quoted). I will try to answer your questions though.
First off, I am more of a sandbox oriented player. I loved SWG the way it was Pre-NGE, so my opinions of a good game may differ than yours. I feel that the world does have soul...a place that I would want to build my character. Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I feel my actions in the world have meaning, but more so in the Diplomacy and crafting sphere. The stories for those spheres seem convincing enough that I am doing my part. I also feel like I am doing my part for my guild and for the Vanguard community by pioneering and setting the tone for the economy and overall community feel of the game.
I haven't seen NPC's really interact with each other, and the non-player initiated responses from the NPC's are repetitive and sometimes annoying. I do see some ambient life in the wilderness around the cities, but haven't seen any farther away from them. I don't have much of a problem with that, since I am not paying attention to that kind of stuff in the first place. I also remember SWG the way it was and how I wished there wasn't so many spawns in areas that you could build your house. Keep in mind that player houses are implemented and soon guild houses will be. There needs to be open "dead" space for those houses, without little critters spawning in your houses.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. I feel that Vanguard is not the right sort of game for you. Perhaps a more story oriented game would suit your tastes, such as WOW, LoTRO, & the EQ games.
I pretty much agree with Lidane on this, and I think you've pretty much cemented my opinion that Vanguard is still a terrible game.
If you never cared about the quality of the writing or the coherence of the world's lore -- in other words, if you never understood what people like Lidane and I felt was wrong with the game in the first place -- then really it makes no sense to us when you say the game is better now. If you think the world design (including geography, town setup, and points of interest) was never a problem, then you and I have very different ideas of what a good RPG needs to contain.
I could not care less about player housing or guild housing, so its inclusion means nothing to me. The game never ran poorly on my computer, so performance improvements will not affect my opinion. I think the crafting system is completely ridiculous, so adding more recipes without changing the system does not count as an improvement for me.
No, I don't think I need to waste money resubscribing for another month of hell to know the game is still a bad one.
I never said Vanguard approved. Please quote me where I said that. I never played Vanguard before a week ago, so I wouldn't know if it improved or not. I even clearly stated that I wasn't the person he quoted. Please read my post more thoroughly next time.
WoW is not my cup of tea, but I don't go around calling it a bad game. Same with Saga of Ryzom and the majority of the games out there right now. Just because a game doesn't have a feature you want in it, doesn't mean it is a bad game. It just means that the game wasn't designed with you in mind. When are MMORPG players going to realize that every game isn't designed with them in mind. Sometimes they focus on one play type over the other. WAR isn't going to appeal to the WoW raiders, just like Vanguard isn't going to appeal to the WoW casual gamer. Vanguard is more of a sandbox with racial story elements right now, than it is a story driven RPG like you are wanting.
Like I said before, LoTRO, WOW, and all of the EQ games are right up your alley. Are you playing one of those? If not, why are you complaining about Vanguard when you don't even play the MMORPGs that are story driven.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I'm not a Mquaid follower and never was. I read up on this game and followed it, just like I follow all upcoming releases that sound good on paper. I didn't Beta this game, didn't want to, and I didn't buy it at release due to all the negative publicity. So, there is no need to lump me with all the other Vanbois out there. I play games that appeal to me and that I feel are fun. I don't play what others tell me to.
Since you don't have any questions for me, I have some for you. Why do you browse the Vanguard forums if you aren't interested in the game? You have never even played it, so why do you even feel the need to talk bad about it? I at least hold my tongue about games I have never played. If you hate SOE, why even browse SOE MMORPG game forums in the first place. The adult thing to do when you don't like something is to say something to the people who are responsible for your grief, if the cause of that grief was unjustified, then walk away. If you were griefed bad enough and the person that griefed you broke a law, you can file a lawsuit against them. Otherwise, it is pretty childish to come to a forum that is for a game that you have never played, don't plan on playing, and you hate the company that owns it.
I don't like asian grindfest games for the most part, but I don't go to their forums and tell them how much I hate it and how much I hate their games and ask if it has improved when I don't even plan to play it in the first place. I was taking you seriously at first, but after that post it is kind of hard. Mature adults just don't visit forums that belong to games they do not support or never plan to play due to them hating the company behind it. Mature adults instead post on their own forums constructively, play their game, or get on with real life.
Sorry you were disappointed in your previous game, I was too, but holding a grudge over it is silly at best. They are just games and you shouldn't have your life revolve around them. That's what it sounds like when you get so upset over a game to "hate" a company and then troll the forums that belong to a game that you don't even play or plan to play.
Well by your standards mature adults are the extreme minority here and soon to be extinct, and don't be concerned my life doesn't revolve around games. I don't hate Vanguard at all, I do despise Mcquaid as he has made it harder for small studios with innovative ideas to get funding. VG stands for all that is bad with the MMO industry right now, poor design, poor coding, viral marketing (AKA BSing the customer), unfinished at release then grabbing the money and bailing out less than 6 months after release.
You are paying to Beta test VG right now and will be into next year, wether you enjoy that or not is superflous to the health of the MMO industry. What it means is that self serving scum like Mcquaid are still getting away with pulling this crap, this kind of scam got old 5 years ago.
I don't like GW and can't stand WoW but they're both well made games and I have no reason to gripe about them, no-one was ripped off by a snake oil salesman. So I don't post there and thye same goes for most MMOs, there's a difference between not liking a game and not liking a charlatan that's trying to take you for a ride.
I suppose many would label me as an immature hater who can't get over the fact that VG is a turd, so be it I've had to suffer worse than a few jibes over the internet in my life. However I feel my work will soon be done here when VG is merged into one server then shut down perhaps the other Mcquaids out there will think twice about "pulling a Vanguard"?
Also no need to take me seriously, I don't take myself seriously so there's no need for anyone else to
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not about strictly following the story that the devs have laid out. If I only wanted to follow a pre-written storyline, I've got plenty of console RPG's for that.
In an MMO, it's about my characters existing in a fully living, breathing world that offers both an over-arching conflict, or some sort of coherent lore, and being able to make my own way within that world.
Case in point-- City of Heroes/Villains, which is my primary game. It's got a bit of both things at work. The game offers reams of lore ranging from large, worldwide conflicts (the alien Rikti vs. humanity), conflicts that directly tie into the mythology of the signature heroes and villains in the game (the Freedom Phalanx vs. Arachnos), mad scientists, death cults, an evil corporation, paranoid conspiracy nuts, rival Mafia gangs, and so on, all the way down to smaller, more mundane villains that are little more than garden variety street thugs.
There are so many divergent groups to fight, and so much information in the game that it's entirely possible to create a backstory and purpose for your character that has nothing to do with the main, overriding storylines in the game, and you can just play out your own story if you want. That's my point.
I never found any of that in Vanguard. Diplomacy was a total wash for me, since even the tutorial made my eyes glaze over out of boredom, and sadly, that was where most of the lore in this game was hidden. I couldn't connect to the game world at all, and for me that was a game killer.
I'm not an active roleplayer in the sense of talking in character all the time, or anything like that, but I do enjoy looking at these games as large scale RPG's, since, IMO, that's what the label MMORPG implies. I like that sort of entry point into a game, with lore to read, conflicts to immerse myself in, and all that so that my characters will have some sort of raison d’être. Even if I never actively follow that main storyline, and just do my own thing in the game world, at least I have a background for my character, and something to solidify my place in the world as a whole.
Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not about strictly following the story that the devs have laid out. If I only wanted to follow a pre-written storyline, I've got plenty of console RPG's for that.
In an MMO, it's about my characters existing in a fully living, breathing world that offers both an over-arching conflict, or some sort of coherent lore, and being able to make my own way within that world.
Case in point-- City of Heroes/Villains, which is my primary game. It's got a bit of both things at work. The game offers reams of lore ranging from large, worldwide conflicts (the alien Rikti vs. humanity), conflicts that directly tie into the mythology of the signature heroes and villains in the game (the Freedom Phalanx vs. Arachnos), mad scientists, death cults, an evil corporation, paranoid conspiracy nuts, rival Mafia gangs, and so on, all the way down to smaller, more mundane villains that are little more than garden variety street thugs.
There are so many divergent groups to fight, and so much information in the game that it's entirely possible to create a backstory and purpose for your character that has nothing to do with the main, overriding storylines in the game, and you can just play out your own story if you want. That's my point.
I never found any of that in Vanguard. Diplomacy was a total wash for me, since even the tutorial made my eyes glaze over out of boredom, and sadly, that was where most of the lore in this game was hidden. I couldn't connect to the game world at all, and for me that was a game killer.
I'm not an active roleplayer in the sense of talking in character all the time, or anything like that, but I do enjoy looking at these games as large scale RPG's, since, IMO, that's what the label MMORPG implies. I like that sort of entry point into a game, with lore to read, conflicts to immerse myself in, and all that so that my characters will have some sort of raison d’être. Even if I never actively follow that main storyline, and just do my own thing in the game world, at least I have a background for my character, and something to solidify my place in the world as a whole.
I agree. I liked that about COH as well. I just couldn't stick with that game due to the repetitiveness of it. It is a great game for a casual gamer though. As for Vanguard, I can see your point. However, considering that I do take part in diplomacy, I don't suffer from that. Also, not every game world needs a plot or controversy. I know that people like to play during a time period of war, but Telon isn't that world. In fact, Telon has recovered from a large war. Your role in the game is to get rid of the remaining threats to your races area and forge a place in Telon for your character. I am still young and have a lot of learning to do, but I am working on becoming a high profile diplomat, a famous crafter, and a hero in the land.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Zorgo, there are plenty of other games that are 'breaking the MMO mold' without the failure of VG unmotivating them, or providing an alternative game model to draw inspiration from. The problem is, of course, is that VG failed to provide any sort of paradigm jump in the MMO, or even to the extent of being a '3rd gen' MMO (shakes head as he remembers the hype). VG's failure is not as important as you think it is. Its just a sad postscript to a semi-talented group of people who got shafted by bad management, and the thousands of customers who were misled and screwed over.
You do such a good job of proving my original point. The main thrust of my argument for a new forum was that I was tired of people re-hashing the same arguments over and over and over and over. What exactly is your purpose? Are you trying to get under Vanguard players skin? When someone disagrees with you, can you just not accept it? Or is it that you actually believe that these arguments haven't been heard before?
There may be plenty of other games that are breaking the mold***, but I believe, this is IN SPITE of the mmo hating community, certainly not BECAUSE of the mmo hating community. I simply don't believe Vanguard is a failed game, I believe it is a failed launch. You feel the exact opposite. So let's put these argruments behind us and stop rehashing them. Is that really so hard? Every Vanguard thread simply does not have to devolve into the same intractable argument.
I can't believe you again tried to convince me here. How many times do I have to say, "I think you are dead wrong. Please for the love of God, leave me alone".
***As a sidenote, sounds like you are as convinced either WAR or AoC will be the greatest thing ever, just like the Vanbois felt about this game. Vanguard turned out very different then the dream, are you prepared for the same to happen? The lesson you should have learned from Vanguard is to be wary of a product until its on the shelves, yet, you simply decided to put the same faith others had in Vanguard into different games that are still unreleased. You are setting yourself up for another major disappointment, I hope you are ready if your 'revolutionary' games don't meet your expectations, because I certainly hope you don't ruin their forums as you have done to ours. See, despite you repeating you 'arguments' for the millionth time....I still think you are the problem.
No reason for new forums here, there's places like Silky Venom for players who want to discuss games with other people who won't disagree with them.
Thanks for missing the point completely.
You may have been trying to burn me with you sharp wit, but instead exposed yourself for not understanding something very simple.
Both voices would be heard, there would just be a choice for the mmoprg user. Do I want to debate vanguard today? click on that forum. Do I want to discuss the game with other players? click on that forum. But somehow it was lost on you that I was talking about diversifying catagories, go ahead and believe I was trying to silence naysayers, what ever makes you feel like a big man.
Besides, you should really go to the Silkyvenom website some time, they actually have many disagreeements and debate the game, but for the most part they have moved passed the hack arguments you keep bringing up over and over and over again.
I do go to Silky Venom, when I want to debate with adults. But in this thread, I was trying to make a constructive suggestion for turning these forums around, because lately, I've been wondering why I come to this site at all.
More stable, more quests and better animantion for the most part, also more crafted items. It is not perfect but it is not the game that existed before SOEs buy out. There are several level 40s area that have not totally been exploxed yet.
Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world?
Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together?
Yes, if you actually read the text. It is disjointed but one of the top priorities in getting the game fixed.
Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal?
There isn't suppose to be. You are writing your own story in Vanguard. If you think that an mmo needs an over-arching conflict to give your character meaning.....omg, if future mmo's make this a standard, i'm going to vomit. It works for LotR because there was an over-arching conflict in the book. LotR isn't your world, and your character, you are experiencing Tolkein's world, and Tolkein's characters. Actually, not even that, you are experiencing the computer game developer's interpretation of Tolkeins' world and Tolkein's characters, I however, prefer to play mmo's to write my own story. LotR is for the creatively challenged imho. So you missed the target by a country mile, if you thought this would convince me Vanguard is a bad game.
From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates.
However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world.
Which is why you shouldn't play it. Now, what are you trying to accomplish by rehashing this hack argument for the millionth time? If your purpose was proving the central point of my OP, thank you.
For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
You are so good at rehashing arguments, you did it two paragraphs in a row.
This is hilarious. You keep trying over and over and over to prove to me that people aren't rehashing the same arguments by rehashing the same arguments.
I have a suggestion, you should go to your local high school and ask the current debate coach to help you out. Because you continue to completely miss the argument set up in the OP, and instead keep reinforcing its validity. If you cannot speak to the problem I put forward, please, at least stop validating it, because it makes your side lose points.
Statements like 'messianic cultists' prove to me that you are beyond a level-headed debate who is able to see that it takes two to tango.
There's a HUGE difference between someone who likes Vanguard and the Brad cultists I was talking about. If you can't see the distinction, that's not my fault or my problem.
There are folks here who like VG, but who can also admit the game's flaws. They're NOT the people I'm talking about.
What I'm talking about are the Brad cultists-- the hardest of the hardocre Vanguard fans who spent years going to different forums, including this one, to equate dissent with being an immature "WoW kiddie". They considered any suggestions that deviated from The Vision as something that only n00bs who didn't want to work for anything and wanted a max level toon with top gear in a week would want. Even simple things like detailed maps got these guys riled up, for frack's sake.
Those guys are the ones who spent years sowing the bad blood that exists for this game. They're the ones who pissed people off, and who rubbed people the wrong way with regards to VG.
Although I disagree with you completely, let us assume what you are saying is true. Why should I as a Vanguard player suffer for what a minority of 'messianic cultists' turned this forum into? If you think we current players deserve this treatment, the only logical conclusion is that you equate anyone who plays the game with those 'cultists', therefore, it is you who cannot distinguish between the two.
-or-
Why does it matter who started the problem? I was suggesting a way to alleviate the problem, it doesn't matter who started it, haters or vanbois....these forums are nearly intolerable. Stop blaming and start finding solutions.
Brad cultist =/= current Vanguard fans. I CAN tell the difference. And they're two totally distinct groups.
But that still doesn't mean that this forum needs to be split. There hasn't been a single good reason presented as to why it should. The fall of VG is nowhere near what happened to SWG, and doesn't bring anywhere near that level of wank or bitterness. Hence, this place should stay as it is as a lesson for others.
Two forums for two voices. One for players, one for non-players? What's the point? It's not like everything is all roses over at the official SOE forums if that's to be any example of what a player-only forum would be like. The types of threads posted here are posted there in similar frequency and negativity.
I wonder why? Probably because most things complained about now are still relevant whether its from a player or non-player. Sure, the SOE deal is old news, along with a bad launch and a few other things routinely drudged up, but many problems still exist with the game that are rooted in those old issues and warrant their use in discussions.
In short, the Star Wars Galaxies board divide seems to have been based on game mechanics. There isn't a crowd in this community longing for pre-Riftway days or some silliness like that. A lot of the things complained about are still relevant today and are very much apart of Vanguard.
I have a suggestion, you should go to your local high school and ask the current debate coach to help you out. Because you continue to completely miss the argument set up in the OP, and instead keep reinforcing its validity. If you cannot speak to the problem I put forward, please, at least stop validating it, because it makes your side lose points.
And I have a piece of advice-- acting like a nitpicky, condescending jerk doesn't exactly make your argument look good. Insulting me, while probably cathartic for you, does nothing to strengthen your overall position.
And you've still offered no valid reasons why this forum should be split. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the people who bought this game tried it, quit, and told people they knew to steer clear of it. VG's time has come and gone unless SOE can pull off a Hail Mary pass to try and save it. The interest at large in this game is over, so there's no reason to split these forums. They should stay as they are to document what went wrong with this game.
Also, I don't have a "side". I think this idiotic "fans vs. haters" nonsense is exactly that. Nonsense. I don't take any of this personally, don't have a vested interest in the outcome, and for all intents and purposes, see posting here as an intellectual exercise and a way to kill time at work, since the game itself is in marked decline from what it was six months ago.
Vangaurd will be dead in 7 or 8 months. They won't sink a DIME back into the game beyond what they are getting in subs. Not a dime.
IMO it was shameful that SOE allowed the product to be released, even though it sold 200,000, only 30,000 are still there. That says a lot about how SOE feels about there customers, a wallet to be drained. Think about when the next game comes out.
I have a suggestion, you should go to your local high school and ask the current debate coach to help you out. Because you continue to completely miss the argument set up in the OP, and instead keep reinforcing its validity. If you cannot speak to the problem I put forward, please, at least stop validating it, because it makes your side lose points.
And I have a piece of advice-- acting like a nitpicky, condescending jerk doesn't exactly make your argument look good. Insulting me, while probably cathartic for you, does nothing to strengthen your overall position.
And you've still offered no valid reasons why this forum should be split. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the people who bought this game tried it, quit, and told people they knew to steer clear of it. VG's time has come and gone unless SOE can pull off a Hail Mary pass to try and save it. The interest at large in this game is over, so there's no reason to split these forums. They should stay as they are to document what went wrong with this game. <-- Rehashed argument, yet again. This is what i"m tired of hearing, yes yes I know. You think VG is failed, can I please talk about the game I play with like-minded players again on mmorpg? Or am I doomed to read this crap in every thread? And if so, why?
Also, I don't have a "side". I think this idiotic "fans vs. haters" nonsense is exactly that. Nonsense. I don't take any of this personally -oh no? re-read your first sentence, I think you do, don't have a vested interest in the outcome, and for all intents and purposes, see posting here as an intellectual exercise and a way to kill time at work, since the game itself is in marked decline from what it was six months ago. - if you see it as an intellectual exercise, why did you get so bent out of shape when I tried to steer you back on track to what this debate is about?
Mr. Dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it,
You call me a condescending jerk and cry about being insulted when that's all you've done in everyone of your posts on this thread, and then proceed to follow that accusation with a paragraph where you are acting as a condescending jerk and insult me.
In fact, reading my quote over, I will give you that it was sarcastic, but not codescending because I made a valid point. You never addressed the issue I presented, but continued to validate it.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
Therefore, if you want to convince me we don't need a new forum you have to:
A. Prove the same arguments aren't rehashed in every thread by people no longer playing the game
B. Explain why current players of VG need to endure those same arguments over and over.
C. Give a better alternative to clean up this forum.
The only thing you have done, including in this rebuttal is to reinforce the premise of my argument by continuing to try to explain to me that Vanguard failed.
I'm not the one with a failed approach to the debate, I'm just trying to snap you back on track.
I am also not a fan of moderation of these forums, because I have a thick skin, and if I'm harsh, I'm prepared to have people be harsh back, although, I don't believe I have ever made personal attacks about your character, but rather have responded directly to your exact words. But call me a jerk again and consider yourself reported, although, I'd rather not, because the more you re-hash arguments against Vanguard, the more you prove my initial premise, that this forum is over-run with posts like yours, and something should be done about it. And if you have no vested interest in this debate, I'm not sure why you are here, intellectual pursuit or not.
Two forums for two voices. One for players, one for non-players? What's the point? It's not like everything is all roses over at the official SOE forums if that's to be any example of what a player-only forum would be like. The types of threads posted here are posted there in similar frequency and negativity.
I wonder why? Probably because most things complained about now are still relevant whether its from a player or non-player. Sure, the SOE deal is old news, along with a bad launch and a few other things routinely drudged up, but many problems still exist with the game that are rooted in those old issues and warrant their use in discussions.
In short, the Star Wars Galaxies board divide seems to have been based on game mechanics. There isn't a crowd in this community longing for pre-Riftway days or some silliness like that. A lot of the things complained about are still relevant today and are very much apart of Vanguard.
This is the most constructive reason against my idea that I've heard, and I mean that seriously. It was the first one to make me re-think. But beyond my OP, I've come to decide that each game here needs to diversify its forum topics. I still think the SOE forums and the SWG Vets forum is a good precedent to show that by giving mmorpg users more choices in their games, we can focus the debates more to our enjoyment.
I don't want to end debate or silence anyone, I want mmorpg to diversify so that it isn't the hate soup that each thread becomes. This isn't exclusive to Vanguard, but you have to admit, because of Vanguards big let down to most people, it is a great example of what can happen.
Is it in the mmorpg plan to marginalize the actual players of a game, drown them out, simply because there are outnumbered by haters? Or is it in the mmorpg plan to provide a place for players of a particular game to discuss/debate?
I contend that the entire premise of this website is to provide a place for the players to discuss their game, not to marginalize players of a particular game. If this is true, one has to admit that the Vanguard forums are not living up to the website's purpose, and if that is true, the forum needs to be cleaned up. You might not like my particular idea, but so far not one person has suggested an alternative, other than, 'when the game improves, the forums will as well'. To me this is a circular and subjective argument. Most playing the game see vast improvements, yet the forums are getting worse. So I want some more ideas.
I haven't seen one person who plays Vanguard and enjoys it, disagree with me. Yet, for those who hate Vanguard, they see my idea as being unecessary. I wonder why? Perhaps because no one likes to wililngly give up a position of dominance. I however, believe that the minority must be protected against the tyranny of the majority with a system of checks and balances.
Vangaurd will be dead in 7 or 8 months. They won't sink a DIME back into the game beyond what they are getting in subs. Not a dime.
IMO it was shameful that SOE allowed the product to be released, even though it sold 200,000, only 30,000 are still there. That says a lot about how SOE feels about there customers, a wallet to be drained. Think about when the next game comes out.
It has been so gratifying to see so many posts that validate the premise that this forum is inundated with people re-hashing the same tired arguments again and again. Thank you for helping to prove my point.
If you're going to continue to attack me, and to act as if you know better, at least take the time to look at my profile. I'm female. If you're going to insult me, at least get the gender pronouns correct.
I apologize. I didn't mean to assume.
But why has it been acceptable for you to continue to attack me, act as if you know better, etc. etc. but I am not afforded the same? I am fighting fire with fire, but you want to be able to hurl crap at me and I'm suppose to sit here and take it? I am not insulting you, I am trying to get you to address the topic instead of re-hashing 'vanguard is a failure' posts. I am sure you are a very nice person, and I'm not being sarcastic, I just think we have a very different opinion, and I will defend my position.
I'll make a correction,
I should have called you 'Ms. Can-dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it'.
This is still going? Jesus H. Christ, Zorgo. Give it a rest already. If you're not happy with how the forum is set up, find another forum!
It's really not that friggen difficult a problem to solve. Hell, get a freewebs account and make your onw VG forum, then it can only contain what you want it to. They are not going to give you another section here, I can guarantee that with a 99.9% probability. All you are doing now, is attracting what you say your so against, just so you can say "I proved my point".
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
That's great. But these are PUBLIC forums, not strictly limited to current players of Vanguard and all of the other games featured here. Every game on this site has posts in their respective forums where people criticize/flame/etc. the game in question. Should all those other games get split forums as well? Or just VG because of your hyper-sensitivity to criticism?
Look at World of Warcraft. It gets shit on more than any other game here, even in forums that have nothing to do with it, and yet, the mods at this site don't have a separate forum for former and/or disgruntled WoW players to post in. Those posts co-exist along with the ones from current players, and people interested in playing the game.
Why is Vanguard somehow exempt from that? Give me one good, solid reason why you should have two separate forums for Vanguard when even the biggest game on this site has a singular general discussion forum for itself?
You call me a condescending jerk and cry about being insulted when that's all you've done in everyone of your posts on this thread, and then proceed to follow that accusation with a paragraph where you are acting as a condescending jerk and insult me.
In fact, reading my quote over, I will give you that it was sarcastic, but not codescending because I made a valid point. You never addressed the issue I presented, but continued to validate it.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
That is not a proposition but an opinion. Since you insist on calling those of dissenting
opinion "haters", there is no room to come to any kind of understanding, meeting of
the minds, or common ground. The use of the label "haters" indicates that any
attempt at understanding a differing viewpoint is beyond your desire or capability.
The bottom line is that you want a seperate forum to try to make the case that the
game has radically changed in the last seven months. The problem however is that
the only thing that has changed in the last seven months is stability, performance,
cosmetic changes (quest text, etc), and bug fixes. That is hardly a justification for a
new forum.
There are games that have been out for years and have had multiple expansions with
the number of fixes that would dwarf those implemented by Sigil and Sony. Yet they
continue to use their original forums. Your proposition that since Vanguard had a bad
release, it should somehow get a do-over is weak at best.
Therefore, if you want to convince me we don't need a new forum you have to:
First of all, why do we need to convince you of anything. You are not that important.
You will not make the decision. We do not need your blessing.
A. Prove the same arguments aren't rehashed in every thread by people no longer playing the game
And exactly what arguments and discussion would appear in the new forum ?
How great a game Vanguard is ? How greatly it has improved ? How much I enjoy
playing the game now that I have a forum of my very own ?
That would become quite repetitive too.
B. Explain why current players of VG need to endure those same arguments over and over.
So what you are saying is that you want a censored forum that only allows those
"like-minded" people to express their opinions. Opinions can only be expressed by
those you deem worthy of having their opinions heard. Show your Vanguard lover's
card at the entrance and be allowed in. Haven't played the game in the last 2 weeks
or after some arbitrary fix and your card is revoked. It does not matter whether your
opinions/concerns are valid or not. The days of the secret handshake and the
membership card are over.
C. Give a better alternative to clean up this forum.
Why must this forum be cleaned up ? It is a record of what happened. It is like every
other blog out there. People came here to discuss (meaning positive and negative
opinions) a game that had been hyped beyond the second coming. The game is
launched and proceeded to fall on its proverbial arse.
Sanitized versions of anything are worthless and subject to the biases of those doing
the sanitizing. Far more problems (bias, ethical practices, other games demanding
similar treatment, etc.) are created than solved by sanitizing a forum or creating a
new forum for a game that was not even re-released.
The only thing you have done, including in this rebuttal is to reinforce the premise of my argument by continuing to try to explain to me that Vanguard failed.
I'm not the one with a failed approach to the debate, I'm just trying to snap you back on track.
I am also not a fan of moderation of these forums, because I have a thick skin, and if I'm harsh, I'm prepared to have people be harsh back, although, I don't believe I have ever made personal attacks about your character, but rather have responded directly to your exact words. But call me a jerk again and consider yourself reported, although, I'd rather not, because the more you re-hash arguments against Vanguard, the more you prove my initial premise, that this forum is over-run with posts like yours, and something should be done about it. And if you have no vested interest in this debate, I'm not sure why you are here, intellectual pursuit or not.
The only way Vanguard will get a new forum is if SOE implements another NGE.
However, based on the "success" of their last experiment a total game re-vamp, I doubt we'd even need a new forum, seeing as how, you know, there'd be no one actually playing the game anymore if another NGE was announced.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The only way Vanguard will get a new forum is if SOE implements another NGE.
However, based on the "success" of their last experiment a total game re-vamp, I doubt we'd even need a new forum, seeing as how, you know, there'd be no one actually playing the game anymore if another NGE was announced.
Finally, an opinion that may have an influence.
I feel like I keep having to explain this point which you have missed as well. I understand taht the NGE and the failed launch of Vanguard are two totally different animals. Some may claim that the seperation of the SWG vets from the current players was due to the mechanics change, but I contend it was actually due to the effect it had on player attitudes. I also contend that the different histories have produced a similar result, in both games you have a distinct vocal populations of ex-players who feel betrayed, lied to and underwhelmed. I think that their hijacking of the forums didn't fulfill the actual purpose of this site, and so the site was modified to get it back on track. Even if you are convinced that it is solely due to the mechanics change in the game, how then would you explain the official 'I hate SOE' thread in every SOE forum. This is solely due to the rift amongst player attitudes. So, I would be content if you had suggested a 'Official Vanguard is a failed game' thread as an alternative to my forum idea, but instead, you simply shot me down. Which, is a pretty poor bit of customer service. Perhaps, Cymdai, you could get them to put a sticky at the top of this forum which states that the purpose of this forum is to talk about Vanguard's failure, and it is not a place for current players to discuss their game. You know that is the reality of this forum, but not the intent of it.
So, I still wonder, is this your personal feeling about my proposition or is this an official response from mmorpg.com? Because if you are saying that the site is happy with the mutated monster this forum has become, and to hell with the original intent of the site, I guess it is time to seek greener pastures.
You call me a condescending jerk and cry about being insulted when that's all you've done in everyone of your posts on this thread, and then proceed to follow that accusation with a paragraph where you are acting as a condescending jerk and insult me.
In fact, reading my quote over, I will give you that it was sarcastic, but not codescending because I made a valid point. You never addressed the issue I presented, but continued to validate it.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
That is not a proposition but an opinion. umm, yes it is; I 'proposed' a new forum, hence it is a proposition. It may be based on my opinion, but I used the word correctly.
Since you insist on calling those of dissenting
opinion "haters",
wrong again, I said haters were dominating this forum with re-hashed arguments. Even I have dissented against Vanguard, in this very thread. There is a difference between debating a game we play and every thread being hi-jacked with the same arguments over and over.
there is no room to come to any kind of understanding, meeting of the
minds, or common ground. The use of the label "haters" indicates that any attempt at
understanding a differing viewpoint is beyond your desire or capability.
Incorrect. I deferred to the 'right' of people to dissent several times in this thread. I asked that they be given an appropriate forum for their dissent, because people have valid reasons for not liking Vanguard. I happen to like it and would like a forum where I can discuss it with other players. Can you not see my point of view?
The bottom line is that you want a seperate forum to try to make the case that the game
has radically changed in the last seven months.
Incorrect again. Earlier I advised someone not to resub because it hasn't radically changed since the person cancelled. My reason for wanting a different forum is in the paragraph above.
The problem however is that the only
thing that has changed in the last seven months is stability, performance, cosmetic
changes (quest text), and bug fixes. That is hardly a justification for a new forum.
This would be good support if your first assumption were true but it isn't.
There are games that have been out for years and have had multiple expansions with
the number of fixes that would dwarf those implemented by Sigil and Sony. Yet they
continue to use their original forums. Your proposition that since Vanguard had a bad
release, it should somehow get a do-over jis weak at best.
I ammended my original proposition through this thread to suggest that every game on this site could benefit from more diversified forum topics about all games. I think Vanguard happens to have some of the most apparent examples for why this could help.
Therefore, if you want to convince me we don't need a new forum you have to:
First of all, why do we need to convince you of anything. You are not that important.
You will not make the decision. We do not need your blessing.
You don't, have to, i said 'if you want to', re-read what I said. But to further, I was just trying to get the thread back to the thrust of my proposition, rather than having this be another thread that explained to me why Vanguard failed, which was not what this topic was about.
A. Prove the same arguments aren't rehashed in every thread by people no longer playing the game
And exactly what arguments and discussion would appear in the new forum ? How great
a game Vanguard is. How greatly it has improved ? How much I enjoy playing the game
now that I have a forum of my very own ?
That would become quite repetitive too.
No. It would be a healthy debate by players currently playing the game. For example, if there were a 'what's your favorite dungeon' thread, people could debate the pros and cons of various dungeons. The topics could be heated debate, but it would be from people playing the game rather than being hijacked by 'VG sux' posts.
B. Explain why current players of VG need to endure those same arguments over and over.
So what you are saying is that you want a censored forum that only allows those "like-minded"
people to express their opinions. Opinions can only be expressed by those you deem worthy
of having their opinions heard. Show your Vanguard lover's card at the entrance and be allowed
in. Haven't played the game in the last 2 weeks, your card is revoked. It does not matter whether
your opinions/concerns are still valid or not. The days of the secret handshake and the member-
ship card are over.
i'm really tiring of re-explaining this. There would be a forum focused on dissent. A kind of 'complaint desk' that I think every game's forum would benefit from. I have never once suggested silencing anyone. On the contrary, I am asking for the voices of the players to be heard. The way this forum is now, we are the ones silenced. I ask for a 'complaint desk' forum, and you scream 'FOUL, you will not silence us!' Well, what gives you the right to silence players? Should they not have a forum on mmorpg to discuss their game? Because, you know fully well that the players are the ones who are shut down and silenced as it is right now.
My above response speaks to this, there are plenty of opinions 'like-minded' players could express. Favorite dungeons was an example above, but think of class discussions, crafting preferences, there would be plenty of debate. But the only thing debated in this forum is Vanguard's failed release, I don't think it fulfills the purpose of mmorpg.com. If I said or implied, like-minded, the only thing I referred to was that they are playing the game. The majority has been disinfranchised by the game, and they are exerting tyranny on this forums so that the small population of Vanguard has no place to discuss the game they play.
C. Give a better alternative to clean up this forum.
Why must this forum be cleaned up ? It is a record of what happened. It is like every other
blog out there. People came here to discuss (meaning positive and negative opinions) a
game that had been hyped beyond the second coming. The game is launched and
proceeded to fall on its proverbial arse.
Because mmorpg.com is suppose to provide a forum where players can discuss their game. And the only thing discussed here is VG's failed release, drowning out the small population who play it. Protection of the minority against the tyranny of the masses.
Sanitized versions of anything are worthless and subject to the biases of those doing the
sanitizing. Far more problems are created than solved by sanitizing a forum or creating a
new forum for a game that was not even re-released.
I never suggested a sanitized forum where we through out naysayers or dissent. I suggested a sort of 'complaint desk' forum, so everything that is being said now, would still be said, but the players and users of this site would simply have more choice when it came to what they wanted to discuss on that visit. If a player didn't want to argue VG's failure yet again, they wouldn't have to. As it is, players are being forced by the majority to listen to an opinion that has been re-hashed a million times, defeating the purpose of this forum, which is to provide players of a game a space to discuss that game. Heck, highlighted above, you even couldn't even stay away from this....guess what I know the game was over-hyped, and I'm still playing. How many times do I have to hear that it was over-hyped before you let me enjoy these forums?
The only thing you have done, including in this rebuttal is to reinforce the premise of my argument by continuing to try to explain to me that Vanguard failed.
I'm not the one with a failed approach to the debate, I'm just trying to snap you back on track.
I am also not a fan of moderation of these forums, because I have a thick skin, and if I'm harsh, I'm prepared to have people be harsh back, although, I don't believe I have ever made personal attacks about your character, but rather have responded directly to your exact words. But call me a jerk again and consider yourself reported, although, I'd rather not, because the more you re-hash arguments against Vanguard, the more you prove my initial premise, that this forum is over-run with posts like yours, and something should be done about it. And if you have no vested interest in this debate, I'm not sure why you are here, intellectual pursuit or not.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
That's great. But these are PUBLIC forums, not strictly limited to current players of Vanguard and all of the other games featured here. Every game on this site has posts in their respective forums where people criticize/flame/etc. the game in question. Should all those other games get split forums as well? Or just VG because of your hyper-sensitivity to criticism?
Look at World of Warcraft. It gets shit on more than any other game here, even in forums that have nothing to do with it, and yet, the mods at this site don't have a separate forum for former and/or disgruntled WoW players to post in. Those posts co-exist along with the ones from current players, and people interested in playing the game.
Why is Vanguard somehow exempt from that? Give me one good, solid reason why you should have two separate forums for Vanguard when even the biggest game on this site has a singular general discussion forum for itself?
Yes, I agree with this. That is why I ammended my original proposition, in several responses, (and I can't imagine it didn't show up in one of my responses to you) to suggest that EVERY game on this site should have a 'complaint desk' type forum. I'm not trying to silence people who dislike Vanguard, or any game, I am simply trying to give those who play Vanguard a voice on this site.
Comments
Lidane,
I am not swordmark45, so keep in mind that he is not the one responding to this post (the person you quoted). I will try to answer your questions though.
First off, I am more of a sandbox oriented player. I loved SWG the way it was Pre-NGE, so my opinions of a good game may differ than yours. I feel that the world does have soul...a place that I would want to build my character. Tying in the individual race lore into a unifying story REMAINS as a short-term goal for SOE. I could honestly care less for it though. I am more interested in living in the world of Telon and creating my own story, rather following a story written by the Devs.
I feel my actions in the world have meaning, but more so in the Diplomacy and crafting sphere. The stories for those spheres seem convincing enough that I am doing my part. I also feel like I am doing my part for my guild and for the Vanguard community by pioneering and setting the tone for the economy and overall community feel of the game.
I haven't seen NPC's really interact with each other, and the non-player initiated responses from the NPC's are repetitive and sometimes annoying. I do see some ambient life in the wilderness around the cities, but haven't seen any farther away from them. I don't have much of a problem with that, since I am not paying attention to that kind of stuff in the first place. I also remember SWG the way it was and how I wished there wasn't so many spawns in areas that you could build your house. Keep in mind that player houses are implemented and soon guild houses will be. There needs to be open "dead" space for those houses, without little critters spawning in your houses.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. I feel that Vanguard is not the right sort of game for you. Perhaps a more story oriented game would suit your tastes, such as WOW, LoTRO, & the EQ games.
I pretty much agree with Lidane on this, and I think you've pretty much cemented my opinion that Vanguard is still a terrible game.If you never cared about the quality of the writing or the coherence of the world's lore -- in other words, if you never understood what people like Lidane and I felt was wrong with the game in the first place -- then really it makes no sense to us when you say the game is better now. If you think the world design (including geography, town setup, and points of interest) was never a problem, then you and I have very different ideas of what a good RPG needs to contain.
I could not care less about player housing or guild housing, so its inclusion means nothing to me. The game never ran poorly on my computer, so performance improvements will not affect my opinion. I think the crafting system is completely ridiculous, so adding more recipes without changing the system does not count as an improvement for me.
No, I don't think I need to waste money resubscribing for another month of hell to know the game is still a bad one.
I never said Vanguard approved. Please quote me where I said that. I never played Vanguard before a week ago, so I wouldn't know if it improved or not. I even clearly stated that I wasn't the person he quoted. Please read my post more thoroughly next time.
WoW is not my cup of tea, but I don't go around calling it a bad game. Same with Saga of Ryzom and the majority of the games out there right now. Just because a game doesn't have a feature you want in it, doesn't mean it is a bad game. It just means that the game wasn't designed with you in mind. When are MMORPG players going to realize that every game isn't designed with them in mind. Sometimes they focus on one play type over the other. WAR isn't going to appeal to the WoW raiders, just like Vanguard isn't going to appeal to the WoW casual gamer. Vanguard is more of a sandbox with racial story elements right now, than it is a story driven RPG like you are wanting.
Like I said before, LoTRO, WOW, and all of the EQ games are right up your alley. Are you playing one of those? If not, why are you complaining about Vanguard when you don't even play the MMORPGs that are story driven.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I'm not a Mquaid follower and never was. I read up on this game and followed it, just like I follow all upcoming releases that sound good on paper. I didn't Beta this game, didn't want to, and I didn't buy it at release due to all the negative publicity. So, there is no need to lump me with all the other Vanbois out there. I play games that appeal to me and that I feel are fun. I don't play what others tell me to.
Since you don't have any questions for me, I have some for you. Why do you browse the Vanguard forums if you aren't interested in the game? You have never even played it, so why do you even feel the need to talk bad about it? I at least hold my tongue about games I have never played. If you hate SOE, why even browse SOE MMORPG game forums in the first place. The adult thing to do when you don't like something is to say something to the people who are responsible for your grief, if the cause of that grief was unjustified, then walk away. If you were griefed bad enough and the person that griefed you broke a law, you can file a lawsuit against them. Otherwise, it is pretty childish to come to a forum that is for a game that you have never played, don't plan on playing, and you hate the company that owns it.
I don't like asian grindfest games for the most part, but I don't go to their forums and tell them how much I hate it and how much I hate their games and ask if it has improved when I don't even plan to play it in the first place. I was taking you seriously at first, but after that post it is kind of hard. Mature adults just don't visit forums that belong to games they do not support or never plan to play due to them hating the company behind it. Mature adults instead post on their own forums constructively, play their game, or get on with real life.
Sorry you were disappointed in your previous game, I was too, but holding a grudge over it is silly at best. They are just games and you shouldn't have your life revolve around them. That's what it sounds like when you get so upset over a game to "hate" a company and then troll the forums that belong to a game that you don't even play or plan to play.
Well by your standards mature adults are the extreme minority here and soon to be extinct, and don't be concerned my life doesn't revolve around games. I don't hate Vanguard at all, I do despise Mcquaid as he has made it harder for small studios with innovative ideas to get funding. VG stands for all that is bad with the MMO industry right now, poor design, poor coding, viral marketing (AKA BSing the customer), unfinished at release then grabbing the money and bailing out less than 6 months after release.
You are paying to Beta test VG right now and will be into next year, wether you enjoy that or not is superflous to the health of the MMO industry. What it means is that self serving scum like Mcquaid are still getting away with pulling this crap, this kind of scam got old 5 years ago.
I don't like GW and can't stand WoW but they're both well made games and I have no reason to gripe about them, no-one was ripped off by a snake oil salesman. So I don't post there and thye same goes for most MMOs, there's a difference between not liking a game and not liking a charlatan that's trying to take you for a ride.
I suppose many would label me as an immature hater who can't get over the fact that VG is a turd, so be it I've had to suffer worse than a few jibes over the internet in my life. However I feel my work will soon be done here when VG is merged into one server then shut down perhaps the other Mcquaids out there will think twice about "pulling a Vanguard"?
Also no need to take me seriously, I don't take myself seriously so there's no need for anyone else to
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
McQuaid did not get away with a thing. He lost his company and control of his game.
He lost.
Vanguard as a game? Who knows.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not about strictly following the story that the devs have laid out. If I only wanted to follow a pre-written storyline, I've got plenty of console RPG's for that.
In an MMO, it's about my characters existing in a fully living, breathing world that offers both an over-arching conflict, or some sort of coherent lore, and being able to make my own way within that world.
Case in point-- City of Heroes/Villains, which is my primary game. It's got a bit of both things at work. The game offers reams of lore ranging from large, worldwide conflicts (the alien Rikti vs. humanity), conflicts that directly tie into the mythology of the signature heroes and villains in the game (the Freedom Phalanx vs. Arachnos), mad scientists, death cults, an evil corporation, paranoid conspiracy nuts, rival Mafia gangs, and so on, all the way down to smaller, more mundane villains that are little more than garden variety street thugs.
There are so many divergent groups to fight, and so much information in the game that it's entirely possible to create a backstory and purpose for your character that has nothing to do with the main, overriding storylines in the game, and you can just play out your own story if you want. That's my point.
I never found any of that in Vanguard. Diplomacy was a total wash for me, since even the tutorial made my eyes glaze over out of boredom, and sadly, that was where most of the lore in this game was hidden. I couldn't connect to the game world at all, and for me that was a game killer.
I'm not an active roleplayer in the sense of talking in character all the time, or anything like that, but I do enjoy looking at these games as large scale RPG's, since, IMO, that's what the label MMORPG implies. I like that sort of entry point into a game, with lore to read, conflicts to immerse myself in, and all that so that my characters will have some sort of raison d’être. Even if I never actively follow that main storyline, and just do my own thing in the game world, at least I have a background for my character, and something to solidify my place in the world as a whole.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not about strictly following the story that the devs have laid out. If I only wanted to follow a pre-written storyline, I've got plenty of console RPG's for that.
In an MMO, it's about my characters existing in a fully living, breathing world that offers both an over-arching conflict, or some sort of coherent lore, and being able to make my own way within that world.
Case in point-- City of Heroes/Villains, which is my primary game. It's got a bit of both things at work. The game offers reams of lore ranging from large, worldwide conflicts (the alien Rikti vs. humanity), conflicts that directly tie into the mythology of the signature heroes and villains in the game (the Freedom Phalanx vs. Arachnos), mad scientists, death cults, an evil corporation, paranoid conspiracy nuts, rival Mafia gangs, and so on, all the way down to smaller, more mundane villains that are little more than garden variety street thugs.
There are so many divergent groups to fight, and so much information in the game that it's entirely possible to create a backstory and purpose for your character that has nothing to do with the main, overriding storylines in the game, and you can just play out your own story if you want. That's my point.
I never found any of that in Vanguard. Diplomacy was a total wash for me, since even the tutorial made my eyes glaze over out of boredom, and sadly, that was where most of the lore in this game was hidden. I couldn't connect to the game world at all, and for me that was a game killer.
I'm not an active roleplayer in the sense of talking in character all the time, or anything like that, but I do enjoy looking at these games as large scale RPG's, since, IMO, that's what the label MMORPG implies. I like that sort of entry point into a game, with lore to read, conflicts to immerse myself in, and all that so that my characters will have some sort of raison d’être. Even if I never actively follow that main storyline, and just do my own thing in the game world, at least I have a background for my character, and something to solidify my place in the world as a whole.
I agree. I liked that about COH as well. I just couldn't stick with that game due to the repetitiveness of it. It is a great game for a casual gamer though. As for Vanguard, I can see your point. However, considering that I do take part in diplomacy, I don't suffer from that. Also, not every game world needs a plot or controversy. I know that people like to play during a time period of war, but Telon isn't that world. In fact, Telon has recovered from a large war. Your role in the game is to get rid of the remaining threats to your races area and forge a place in Telon for your character. I am still young and have a lot of learning to do, but I am working on becoming a high profile diplomat, a famous crafter, and a hero in the land.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
You do such a good job of proving my original point. The main thrust of my argument for a new forum was that I was tired of people re-hashing the same arguments over and over and over and over. What exactly is your purpose? Are you trying to get under Vanguard players skin? When someone disagrees with you, can you just not accept it? Or is it that you actually believe that these arguments haven't been heard before?
There may be plenty of other games that are breaking the mold***, but I believe, this is IN SPITE of the mmo hating community, certainly not BECAUSE of the mmo hating community. I simply don't believe Vanguard is a failed game, I believe it is a failed launch. You feel the exact opposite. So let's put these argruments behind us and stop rehashing them. Is that really so hard? Every Vanguard thread simply does not have to devolve into the same intractable argument.
I can't believe you again tried to convince me here. How many times do I have to say, "I think you are dead wrong. Please for the love of God, leave me alone".
***As a sidenote, sounds like you are as convinced either WAR or AoC will be the greatest thing ever, just like the Vanbois felt about this game. Vanguard turned out very different then the dream, are you prepared for the same to happen? The lesson you should have learned from Vanguard is to be wary of a product until its on the shelves, yet, you simply decided to put the same faith others had in Vanguard into different games that are still unreleased. You are setting yourself up for another major disappointment, I hope you are ready if your 'revolutionary' games don't meet your expectations, because I certainly hope you don't ruin their forums as you have done to ours. See, despite you repeating you 'arguments' for the millionth time....I still think you are the problem.
Thanks for missing the point completely.
You may have been trying to burn me with you sharp wit, but instead exposed yourself for not understanding something very simple.
Both voices would be heard, there would just be a choice for the mmoprg user. Do I want to debate vanguard today? click on that forum. Do I want to discuss the game with other players? click on that forum. But somehow it was lost on you that I was talking about diversifying catagories, go ahead and believe I was trying to silence naysayers, what ever makes you feel like a big man.
Besides, you should really go to the Silkyvenom website some time, they actually have many disagreeements and debate the game, but for the most part they have moved passed the hack arguments you keep bringing up over and over and over again.
I do go to Silky Venom, when I want to debate with adults. But in this thread, I was trying to make a constructive suggestion for turning these forums around, because lately, I've been wondering why I come to this site at all.
Here's my question-- what about the overall soul of the world?
Is there a unifying story, or some sort of lore tying the different races together?
Yes, if you actually read the text. It is disjointed but one of the top priorities in getting the game fixed.
Is there a purpose for your character in the world of Telon? Is there an over-arching conflict that gives meaning to your actions in the game, or is it like it was before-- small and provincal?
There isn't suppose to be. You are writing your own story in Vanguard. If you think that an mmo needs an over-arching conflict to give your character meaning.....omg, if future mmo's make this a standard, i'm going to vomit. It works for LotR because there was an over-arching conflict in the book. LotR isn't your world, and your character, you are experiencing Tolkein's world, and Tolkein's characters. Actually, not even that, you are experiencing the computer game developer's interpretation of Tolkeins' world and Tolkein's characters, I however, prefer to play mmo's to write my own story. LotR is for the creatively challenged imho. So you missed the target by a country mile, if you thought this would convince me Vanguard is a bad game.
From a technical standpoint, I could mostly run Vanguard fine. Apart from the occasional hitching and the overall lack of optimization of their client, I could run it at the Highest Quality setting, and at largely playable framerates.
However, the world itself felt cold, soulless, and dull. There was no real purpose to my characters, nothing to tie them to the world around them, and no sort of ambient life that I could see around me. NPC's in cities were rooted to the spot and didn't interact with each other. The only wildlife I ever saw was stuff that needed to be there for quests with no random animals wandering around to add a more lived-in feel to the world.
Which is why you shouldn't play it. Now, what are you trying to accomplish by rehashing this hack argument for the millionth time? If your purpose was proving the central point of my OP, thank you.
For me, the game lacked any sort of heart and soul, and just left me cold. Has any of that changed, or is it still the same world that it was before?
You are so good at rehashing arguments, you did it two paragraphs in a row.
This is hilarious. You keep trying over and over and over to prove to me that people aren't rehashing the same arguments by rehashing the same arguments.
I have a suggestion, you should go to your local high school and ask the current debate coach to help you out. Because you continue to completely miss the argument set up in the OP, and instead keep reinforcing its validity. If you cannot speak to the problem I put forward, please, at least stop validating it, because it makes your side lose points.
There's a HUGE difference between someone who likes Vanguard and the Brad cultists I was talking about. If you can't see the distinction, that's not my fault or my problem.
There are folks here who like VG, but who can also admit the game's flaws. They're NOT the people I'm talking about.
What I'm talking about are the Brad cultists-- the hardest of the hardocre Vanguard fans who spent years going to different forums, including this one, to equate dissent with being an immature "WoW kiddie". They considered any suggestions that deviated from The Vision as something that only n00bs who didn't want to work for anything and wanted a max level toon with top gear in a week would want. Even simple things like detailed maps got these guys riled up, for frack's sake.
Those guys are the ones who spent years sowing the bad blood that exists for this game. They're the ones who pissed people off, and who rubbed people the wrong way with regards to VG.
Although I disagree with you completely, let us assume what you are saying is true. Why should I as a Vanguard player suffer for what a minority of 'messianic cultists' turned this forum into? If you think we current players deserve this treatment, the only logical conclusion is that you equate anyone who plays the game with those 'cultists', therefore, it is you who cannot distinguish between the two.
-or-
Why does it matter who started the problem? I was suggesting a way to alleviate the problem, it doesn't matter who started it, haters or vanbois....these forums are nearly intolerable. Stop blaming and start finding solutions.
Brad cultist =/= current Vanguard fans. I CAN tell the difference. And they're two totally distinct groups.
But that still doesn't mean that this forum needs to be split. There hasn't been a single good reason presented as to why it should. The fall of VG is nowhere near what happened to SWG, and doesn't bring anywhere near that level of wank or bitterness. Hence, this place should stay as it is as a lesson for others.
Two forums for two voices. One for players, one for non-players? What's the point? It's not like everything is all roses over at the official SOE forums if that's to be any example of what a player-only forum would be like. The types of threads posted here are posted there in similar frequency and negativity.
I wonder why? Probably because most things complained about now are still relevant whether its from a player or non-player. Sure, the SOE deal is old news, along with a bad launch and a few other things routinely drudged up, but many problems still exist with the game that are rooted in those old issues and warrant their use in discussions.
In short, the Star Wars Galaxies board divide seems to have been based on game mechanics. There isn't a crowd in this community longing for pre-Riftway days or some silliness like that. A lot of the things complained about are still relevant today and are very much apart of Vanguard.
And I have a piece of advice-- acting like a nitpicky, condescending jerk doesn't exactly make your argument look good. Insulting me, while probably cathartic for you, does nothing to strengthen your overall position.
And you've still offered no valid reasons why this forum should be split. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the people who bought this game tried it, quit, and told people they knew to steer clear of it. VG's time has come and gone unless SOE can pull off a Hail Mary pass to try and save it. The interest at large in this game is over, so there's no reason to split these forums. They should stay as they are to document what went wrong with this game.
Also, I don't have a "side". I think this idiotic "fans vs. haters" nonsense is exactly that. Nonsense. I don't take any of this personally, don't have a vested interest in the outcome, and for all intents and purposes, see posting here as an intellectual exercise and a way to kill time at work, since the game itself is in marked decline from what it was six months ago.
Vangaurd will be dead in 7 or 8 months. They won't sink a DIME back into the game beyond what they are getting in subs. Not a dime.
IMO it was shameful that SOE allowed the product to be released, even though it sold 200,000, only 30,000 are still there. That says a lot about how SOE feels about there customers, a wallet to be drained. Think about when the next game comes out.
And I have a piece of advice-- acting like a nitpicky, condescending jerk doesn't exactly make your argument look good. Insulting me, while probably cathartic for you, does nothing to strengthen your overall position.
And you've still offered no valid reasons why this forum should be split. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of the people who bought this game tried it, quit, and told people they knew to steer clear of it. VG's time has come and gone unless SOE can pull off a Hail Mary pass to try and save it. The interest at large in this game is over, so there's no reason to split these forums. They should stay as they are to document what went wrong with this game. <-- Rehashed argument, yet again. This is what i"m tired of hearing, yes yes I know. You think VG is failed, can I please talk about the game I play with like-minded players again on mmorpg? Or am I doomed to read this crap in every thread? And if so, why?
Also, I don't have a "side". I think this idiotic "fans vs. haters" nonsense is exactly that. Nonsense. I don't take any of this personally - oh no? re-read your first sentence, I think you do, don't have a vested interest in the outcome, and for all intents and purposes, see posting here as an intellectual exercise and a way to kill time at work, since the game itself is in marked decline from what it was six months ago. - if you see it as an intellectual exercise, why did you get so bent out of shape when I tried to steer you back on track to what this debate is about?
Mr. Dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it,
You call me a condescending jerk and cry about being insulted when that's all you've done in everyone of your posts on this thread, and then proceed to follow that accusation with a paragraph where you are acting as a condescending jerk and insult me.
In fact, reading my quote over, I will give you that it was sarcastic, but not codescending because I made a valid point. You never addressed the issue I presented, but continued to validate it.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
Therefore, if you want to convince me we don't need a new forum you have to:
A. Prove the same arguments aren't rehashed in every thread by people no longer playing the game
B. Explain why current players of VG need to endure those same arguments over and over.
C. Give a better alternative to clean up this forum.
The only thing you have done, including in this rebuttal is to reinforce the premise of my argument by continuing to try to explain to me that Vanguard failed.
I'm not the one with a failed approach to the debate, I'm just trying to snap you back on track.
I am also not a fan of moderation of these forums, because I have a thick skin, and if I'm harsh, I'm prepared to have people be harsh back, although, I don't believe I have ever made personal attacks about your character, but rather have responded directly to your exact words. But call me a jerk again and consider yourself reported, although, I'd rather not, because the more you re-hash arguments against Vanguard, the more you prove my initial premise, that this forum is over-run with posts like yours, and something should be done about it. And if you have no vested interest in this debate, I'm not sure why you are here, intellectual pursuit or not.
This is the most constructive reason against my idea that I've heard, and I mean that seriously. It was the first one to make me re-think. But beyond my OP, I've come to decide that each game here needs to diversify its forum topics. I still think the SOE forums and the SWG Vets forum is a good precedent to show that by giving mmorpg users more choices in their games, we can focus the debates more to our enjoyment.
I don't want to end debate or silence anyone, I want mmorpg to diversify so that it isn't the hate soup that each thread becomes. This isn't exclusive to Vanguard, but you have to admit, because of Vanguards big let down to most people, it is a great example of what can happen.
Is it in the mmorpg plan to marginalize the actual players of a game, drown them out, simply because there are outnumbered by haters? Or is it in the mmorpg plan to provide a place for players of a particular game to discuss/debate?
I contend that the entire premise of this website is to provide a place for the players to discuss their game, not to marginalize players of a particular game. If this is true, one has to admit that the Vanguard forums are not living up to the website's purpose, and if that is true, the forum needs to be cleaned up. You might not like my particular idea, but so far not one person has suggested an alternative, other than, 'when the game improves, the forums will as well'. To me this is a circular and subjective argument. Most playing the game see vast improvements, yet the forums are getting worse. So I want some more ideas.
I haven't seen one person who plays Vanguard and enjoys it, disagree with me. Yet, for those who hate Vanguard, they see my idea as being unecessary. I wonder why? Perhaps because no one likes to wililngly give up a position of dominance. I however, believe that the minority must be protected against the tyranny of the majority with a system of checks and balances.
It has been so gratifying to see so many posts that validate the premise that this forum is inundated with people re-hashing the same tired arguments again and again. Thank you for helping to prove my point.
If you're going to continue to attack me, and to act as if you know better, at least take the time to look at my profile.
I'm female. If you're going to insult me, at least get the gender pronouns correct.
I apologize. I didn't mean to assume.
But why has it been acceptable for you to continue to attack me, act as if you know better, etc. etc. but I am not afforded the same? I am fighting fire with fire, but you want to be able to hurl crap at me and I'm suppose to sit here and take it? I am not insulting you, I am trying to get you to address the topic instead of re-hashing 'vanguard is a failure' posts. I am sure you are a very nice person, and I'm not being sarcastic, I just think we have a very different opinion, and I will defend my position.
I'll make a correction,
I should have called you 'Ms. Can-dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it'.
This is still going? Jesus H. Christ, Zorgo. Give it a rest already. If you're not happy with how the forum is set up, find another forum!
It's really not that friggen difficult a problem to solve. Hell, get a freewebs account and make your onw VG forum, then it can only contain what you want it to. They are not going to give you another section here, I can guarantee that with a 99.9% probability. All you are doing now, is attracting what you say your so against, just so you can say "I proved my point".
Get over it and move on.
That's great. But these are PUBLIC forums, not strictly limited to current players of Vanguard and all of the other games featured here. Every game on this site has posts in their respective forums where people criticize/flame/etc. the game in question. Should all those other games get split forums as well? Or just VG because of your hyper-sensitivity to criticism?
Look at World of Warcraft. It gets shit on more than any other game here, even in forums that have nothing to do with it, and yet, the mods at this site don't have a separate forum for former and/or disgruntled WoW players to post in. Those posts co-exist along with the ones from current players, and people interested in playing the game.
Why is Vanguard somehow exempt from that? Give me one good, solid reason why you should have two separate forums for Vanguard when even the biggest game on this site has a singular general discussion forum for itself?
Mr. Dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it,
You call me a condescending jerk and cry about being insulted when that's all you've done in everyone of your posts on this thread, and then proceed to follow that accusation with a paragraph where you are acting as a condescending jerk and insult me.
In fact, reading my quote over, I will give you that it was sarcastic, but not codescending because I made a valid point. You never addressed the issue I presented, but continued to validate it.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
That is not a proposition but an opinion. Since you insist on calling those of dissenting
opinion "haters", there is no room to come to any kind of understanding, meeting of
the minds, or common ground. The use of the label "haters" indicates that any
attempt at understanding a differing viewpoint is beyond your desire or capability.
The bottom line is that you want a seperate forum to try to make the case that the
game has radically changed in the last seven months. The problem however is that
the only thing that has changed in the last seven months is stability, performance,
cosmetic changes (quest text, etc), and bug fixes. That is hardly a justification for a
new forum.
There are games that have been out for years and have had multiple expansions with
the number of fixes that would dwarf those implemented by Sigil and Sony. Yet they
continue to use their original forums. Your proposition that since Vanguard had a bad
release, it should somehow get a do-over is weak at best.
Therefore, if you want to convince me we don't need a new forum you have to:
First of all, why do we need to convince you of anything. You are not that important.
You will not make the decision. We do not need your blessing.
A. Prove the same arguments aren't rehashed in every thread by people no longer playing the game
And exactly what arguments and discussion would appear in the new forum ?
How great a game Vanguard is ? How greatly it has improved ? How much I enjoy
playing the game now that I have a forum of my very own ?
That would become quite repetitive too.
B. Explain why current players of VG need to endure those same arguments over and over.
So what you are saying is that you want a censored forum that only allows those
"like-minded" people to express their opinions. Opinions can only be expressed by
those you deem worthy of having their opinions heard. Show your Vanguard lover's
card at the entrance and be allowed in. Haven't played the game in the last 2 weeks
or after some arbitrary fix and your card is revoked. It does not matter whether your
opinions/concerns are valid or not. The days of the secret handshake and the
membership card are over.
C. Give a better alternative to clean up this forum.
Why must this forum be cleaned up ? It is a record of what happened. It is like every
other blog out there. People came here to discuss (meaning positive and negative
opinions) a game that had been hyped beyond the second coming. The game is
launched and proceeded to fall on its proverbial arse.
Sanitized versions of anything are worthless and subject to the biases of those doing
the sanitizing. Far more problems (bias, ethical practices, other games demanding
similar treatment, etc.) are created than solved by sanitizing a forum or creating a
new forum for a game that was not even re-released.
The only thing you have done, including in this rebuttal is to reinforce the premise of my argument by continuing to try to explain to me that Vanguard failed.
I'm not the one with a failed approach to the debate, I'm just trying to snap you back on track.
I am also not a fan of moderation of these forums, because I have a thick skin, and if I'm harsh, I'm prepared to have people be harsh back, although, I don't believe I have ever made personal attacks about your character, but rather have responded directly to your exact words. But call me a jerk again and consider yourself reported, although, I'd rather not, because the more you re-hash arguments against Vanguard, the more you prove my initial premise, that this forum is over-run with posts like yours, and something should be done about it. And if you have no vested interest in this debate, I'm not sure why you are here, intellectual pursuit or not.
The only way Vanguard will get a new forum is if SOE implements another NGE.
However, based on the "success" of their last experiment a total game re-vamp, I doubt we'd even need a new forum, seeing as how, you know, there'd be no one actually playing the game anymore if another NGE was announced.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Finally, an opinion that may have an influence.I feel like I keep having to explain this point which you have missed as well. I understand taht the NGE and the failed launch of Vanguard are two totally different animals. Some may claim that the seperation of the SWG vets from the current players was due to the mechanics change, but I contend it was actually due to the effect it had on player attitudes. I also contend that the different histories have produced a similar result, in both games you have a distinct vocal populations of ex-players who feel betrayed, lied to and underwhelmed. I think that their hijacking of the forums didn't fulfill the actual purpose of this site, and so the site was modified to get it back on track. Even if you are convinced that it is solely due to the mechanics change in the game, how then would you explain the official 'I hate SOE' thread in every SOE forum. This is solely due to the rift amongst player attitudes. So, I would be content if you had suggested a 'Official Vanguard is a failed game' thread as an alternative to my forum idea, but instead, you simply shot me down. Which, is a pretty poor bit of customer service. Perhaps, Cymdai, you could get them to put a sticky at the top of this forum which states that the purpose of this forum is to talk about Vanguard's failure, and it is not a place for current players to discuss their game. You know that is the reality of this forum, but not the intent of it.
So, I still wonder, is this your personal feeling about my proposition or is this an official response from mmorpg.com? Because if you are saying that the site is happy with the mutated monster this forum has become, and to hell with the original intent of the site, I guess it is time to seek greener pastures.
Mr. Dish-it-out-but-can't-take-it,
You call me a condescending jerk and cry about being insulted when that's all you've done in everyone of your posts on this thread, and then proceed to follow that accusation with a paragraph where you are acting as a condescending jerk and insult me.
In fact, reading my quote over, I will give you that it was sarcastic, but not codescending because I made a valid point. You never addressed the issue I presented, but continued to validate it.
My proposition is that these forums are inundated with haters who present the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and therefore should have a seperate forum to give them their own space and create an atmosphere where current players can discuss/debate the game without having to rehash the reasons Vanguard sux in every single thread.
That is not a proposition but an opinion. umm, yes it is; I 'proposed' a new forum, hence it is a proposition. It may be based on my opinion, but I used the word correctly.
Since you insist on calling those of dissenting
opinion "haters",
wrong again, I said haters were dominating this forum with re-hashed arguments. Even I have dissented against Vanguard, in this very thread. There is a difference between debating a game we play and every thread being hi-jacked with the same arguments over and over.
there is no room to come to any kind of understanding, meeting of the
minds, or common ground. The use of the label "haters" indicates that any attempt at
understanding a differing viewpoint is beyond your desire or capability.
Incorrect. I deferred to the 'right' of people to dissent several times in this thread. I asked that they be given an appropriate forum for their dissent, because people have valid reasons for not liking Vanguard. I happen to like it and would like a forum where I can discuss it with other players. Can you not see my point of view?
The bottom line is that you want a seperate forum to try to make the case that the game
has radically changed in the last seven months.
Incorrect again. Earlier I advised someone not to resub because it hasn't radically changed since the person cancelled. My reason for wanting a different forum is in the paragraph above.
The problem however is that the only
thing that has changed in the last seven months is stability, performance, cosmetic
changes (quest text), and bug fixes. That is hardly a justification for a new forum.
This would be good support if your first assumption were true but it isn't.
There are games that have been out for years and have had multiple expansions with
the number of fixes that would dwarf those implemented by Sigil and Sony. Yet they
continue to use their original forums. Your proposition that since Vanguard had a bad
release, it should somehow get a do-over jis weak at best.
I ammended my original proposition through this thread to suggest that every game on this site could benefit from more diversified forum topics about all games. I think Vanguard happens to have some of the most apparent examples for why this could help.
Therefore, if you want to convince me we don't need a new forum you have to:
First of all, why do we need to convince you of anything. You are not that important.
You will not make the decision. We do not need your blessing.
You don't, have to, i said 'if you want to', re-read what I said. But to further, I was just trying to get the thread back to the thrust of my proposition, rather than having this be another thread that explained to me why Vanguard failed, which was not what this topic was about.
A. Prove the same arguments aren't rehashed in every thread by people no longer playing the game
And exactly what arguments and discussion would appear in the new forum ? How great
a game Vanguard is. How greatly it has improved ? How much I enjoy playing the game
now that I have a forum of my very own ?
That would become quite repetitive too.
No. It would be a healthy debate by players currently playing the game. For example, if there were a 'what's your favorite dungeon' thread, people could debate the pros and cons of various dungeons. The topics could be heated debate, but it would be from people playing the game rather than being hijacked by 'VG sux' posts.
B. Explain why current players of VG need to endure those same arguments over and over.
So what you are saying is that you want a censored forum that only allows those "like-minded"
people to express their opinions. Opinions can only be expressed by those you deem worthy
of having their opinions heard. Show your Vanguard lover's card at the entrance and be allowed
in. Haven't played the game in the last 2 weeks, your card is revoked. It does not matter whether
your opinions/concerns are still valid or not. The days of the secret handshake and the member-
ship card are over.
i'm really tiring of re-explaining this. There would be a forum focused on dissent. A kind of 'complaint desk' that I think every game's forum would benefit from. I have never once suggested silencing anyone. On the contrary, I am asking for the voices of the players to be heard. The way this forum is now, we are the ones silenced. I ask for a 'complaint desk' forum, and you scream 'FOUL, you will not silence us!' Well, what gives you the right to silence players? Should they not have a forum on mmorpg to discuss their game? Because, you know fully well that the players are the ones who are shut down and silenced as it is right now.
My above response speaks to this, there are plenty of opinions 'like-minded' players could express. Favorite dungeons was an example above, but think of class discussions, crafting preferences, there would be plenty of debate. But the only thing debated in this forum is Vanguard's failed release, I don't think it fulfills the purpose of mmorpg.com. If I said or implied, like-minded, the only thing I referred to was that they are playing the game. The majority has been disinfranchised by the game, and they are exerting tyranny on this forums so that the small population of Vanguard has no place to discuss the game they play.
C. Give a better alternative to clean up this forum.
Why must this forum be cleaned up ? It is a record of what happened. It is like every other
blog out there. People came here to discuss (meaning positive and negative opinions) a
game that had been hyped beyond the second coming. The game is launched and
proceeded to fall on its proverbial arse.
Because mmorpg.com is suppose to provide a forum where players can discuss their game. And the only thing discussed here is VG's failed release, drowning out the small population who play it. Protection of the minority against the tyranny of the masses.
Sanitized versions of anything are worthless and subject to the biases of those doing the
sanitizing. Far more problems are created than solved by sanitizing a forum or creating a
new forum for a game that was not even re-released.
I never suggested a sanitized forum where we through out naysayers or dissent. I suggested a sort of 'complaint desk' forum, so everything that is being said now, would still be said, but the players and users of this site would simply have more choice when it came to what they wanted to discuss on that visit. If a player didn't want to argue VG's failure yet again, they wouldn't have to. As it is, players are being forced by the majority to listen to an opinion that has been re-hashed a million times, defeating the purpose of this forum, which is to provide players of a game a space to discuss that game. Heck, highlighted above, you even couldn't even stay away from this....guess what I know the game was over-hyped, and I'm still playing. How many times do I have to hear that it was over-hyped before you let me enjoy these forums?
The only thing you have done, including in this rebuttal is to reinforce the premise of my argument by continuing to try to explain to me that Vanguard failed.
I'm not the one with a failed approach to the debate, I'm just trying to snap you back on track.
I am also not a fan of moderation of these forums, because I have a thick skin, and if I'm harsh, I'm prepared to have people be harsh back, although, I don't believe I have ever made personal attacks about your character, but rather have responded directly to your exact words. But call me a jerk again and consider yourself reported, although, I'd rather not, because the more you re-hash arguments against Vanguard, the more you prove my initial premise, that this forum is over-run with posts like yours, and something should be done about it. And if you have no vested interest in this debate, I'm not sure why you are here, intellectual pursuit or not.
That's great. But these are PUBLIC forums, not strictly limited to current players of Vanguard and all of the other games featured here. Every game on this site has posts in their respective forums where people criticize/flame/etc. the game in question. Should all those other games get split forums as well? Or just VG because of your hyper-sensitivity to criticism?
Look at World of Warcraft. It gets shit on more than any other game here, even in forums that have nothing to do with it, and yet, the mods at this site don't have a separate forum for former and/or disgruntled WoW players to post in. Those posts co-exist along with the ones from current players, and people interested in playing the game.
Why is Vanguard somehow exempt from that? Give me one good, solid reason why you should have two separate forums for Vanguard when even the biggest game on this site has a singular general discussion forum for itself?
Yes, I agree with this. That is why I ammended my original proposition, in several responses, (and I can't imagine it didn't show up in one of my responses to you) to suggest that EVERY game on this site should have a 'complaint desk' type forum. I'm not trying to silence people who dislike Vanguard, or any game, I am simply trying to give those who play Vanguard a voice on this site.