"the decade you wish would end is the one that started with UO and ended with WoW. i guess that is the direction you like, but i prefer the other one. i wish mmorpgs un-evolutioned back to UO. but what do i know! i am just a shortshighted and close minded father of modern gaming.
have a good day"
How can you say that avatar stats, gear, and ability are more important than player skill and then propose that we move back to UO.....that doesn't make any sense to me. UO was the breeding ground for what is now the current day PvP population. I really fail to see how the success and quality of UO does anything but completely contradict your points.
You aren't really making any sense man, but there is no need to take offense to my words. As long as you continue to be presumptious and claim to be able to assert which type of games people "should" accept, then I will continue to rebuttle that you are overstepping your bounds.
www.revolutiong.com Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
OMG!! Intelectual MMORPGers, the world realy is coming to an end! Run and hide, run and hide!
But 1 question always arises when facing a pointless dilemma, is it better to be stupid and boring and not be aware of it, or smart and boring but having relentless faith in self?
" OMG!! Intelectual MMORPGers, the world realy is coming to an end! Run and hide, run and hide!
But 1 question always arises when facing a pointless dilemma, is it better to be stupid and boring and not be aware of it, or smart and boring but having relentless faith in self?"
Hehe yea who would have thunk it......MMORPGers that think about the games they play. A pointless dilemna to one person could cause another to wage a crusade. I don't have relentless faith in myself....I have relentless faith in the ideas I convey, which aren't all mine, but many people's. I don't think anyone could argue against the fact that the gaming industry needs change....and unless us gamers know what that is....how can we expect anyone else to?
www.revolutiong.com Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
By far, the best implementation of PVP in any game that I've played is Eve-Online. If you are a fan of PVP, and even if you aren't, you should check out this game.
DISCLAIMER: I'm relatively new to Eve-Online, having only played for the last 3 months or so. I've been frustrated by my PVP experiences in games like Everquest, Shadowbane and Star Wars Galaxies. But for the first time, I've found a game in which I *love* everything about PVP. Why? Read on.
1.) Avoidable PVP: Eve has done a fantastic job of creating "zones" that are relatively safe, and other zones that are extremely dangerous. Safe zones are patrolled by Concord (the galactic police), and if someone attempts to shoot you while you're in a high-security space, Concord will blow them to smitherens. So if you want to avoid PVP, you can easily stick to the more safe regions of Empire space.
2.) Never Completely Avoidable PVP: However, even in high-security Empire space, you are not completely safe. It's never wise to go AFK without docking your ship at a nearby space station first. If someone suspects you of being AFK (and thus unable to fight back), just floating around in space, they might "suicide bomb" your ship. Only within the confines of a space station (or logged out of the game) are you "safe".
3.) What's My Risk: Each Solar System (zone) has a security rating, and your ship computer will keep you informed of what that rating is. There are 5 levels of High Security, 4 levels of Low Security and 1 level of complete "lawlessness" (0.0 space). You always have a sense of how much risk you're taking in Eve.
4.) It Doesn't Hurt to Lose: If you lose in Eve, getting back into a fully equipped ship isn't all that terribly difficult. And while players can loot / salvage components from your destroyed ship, you never have the feeling that you've suffered a tremendous loss (oh, man, I spent hours camping the Vile Goblin King so I could win that Sword of Inifinite Power -- if he takes that item from my corpse, I swear I'll quit this game forever!). In Eve, you get an immediate read-out of the ship equipment that was destroyed, what survived (and now probably is owned by the PVP winner). But you also know that you'll be quickly on your feet, and likely with a faster / better ship than the one you lost.
5.) Insurance Helps: As soon as your ship is destroyed in Eve, you get a big fat lump of cash in your bank account -- that's the insurance company paying for the recent loss of your ship, assuming you bought insurance. It's almost like getting a little reward for losing in PVP! And depending on the type of Insurance you purchased (I always get Platinum, the best type, for every new ship I buy), you could get back enough ISK to buy the same ship ... immediately! You still need to load that ship with weapons and shields and do-dads, but that's just another fun aspect to Eve.
6.) Building New Ships is Fun: Every time you die, it's a chance to buy a completely new type of ship (or the same type, if you really liked the old model), and equip it. That's another "reward" to death in Eve -- the chance to rebuild up a completely new ship. You've got your fat insurance settlement to start with, and probably a deep bank account from recent work you've been doing. And now you get to spend time thinking about all the different options you can put on your ship. Hopefully, you've learned some lessons from your last PVP encounter, and can designa ship that will effectively counter the strategy that was used to kill you.
7.) So Many Different Types of PVP: There are so many different types of PVP in Eve. You can go straight up 1:1, ship-to-ship against another player. Or you can be one of the vile "gate camper gangs" -- who attack players as they come out of warp in new Solar Systems (traditional zone camping). You can shoot players up to within an inch of their life, and then demand they pay a ransom before they are allowed to go escape with their lives. But the very best experience, I think, is team PVP -- where your entire corporation or alliance goes up against another corporation or alliance. These are some of the most amazing fights I've ever been a part of.
8.) PVP With Consequences: Every time you kill someone, it affects your security settings. As your Security drops lower and lower, it restricts what areas of space you can fly in. Over time, this forces the most hardened killers out of the High Security systems. This naturally pushes the PVP players into a different area of space from newbie players (everyone starts in High Security space). If a player with extremely low security ratings tries to enter high security space -- BOOM! Concord blows him up. Players can work security standings back up, but it takes time (and many consider it a badge of honor to have such low standings!). And any player can view the security standings of any player that shares the same zone with them -- so even when zooming through a low security system, you know when to be on your guard, and when you are relatively safe.
9.) Easily Identified Enemies: It's easy to identify the enemy. They're the players who are blinking red in your local scanner view. Corporations (guilds) can tag other individuals or corporations with a standing of allied or hostile, so it's easy to spot who you SHOULDN'T shoot at when flying through a zone, and who you SHOULD shoot at. Players can also set individual standings -- so if someone (or some guild) has "wronged you" in the past, you can lower your personal standing to them (with a reminder note as to why the standing was lowered), and even the score in the future. Enemies with low standing show up very clearly on the system scan.
10.) Bounty: And if you don't think you'll ever be able to get revenge (maybe your a tradeskill player, not a fighter, or a cargo hauler, or a merchant, or a smuggler, or ...), you can hire someone else to do it for you. Eve has the best bounty system of any game I've ever seen. Anybody can put a bounty on another player. All the bounties applied from different players are cumulative. In fact, some players work hard to see just how high they can get the bounty raised on their heads. As you're flying through a zone, it's very easy to spot the players who have bounties on them (making the career path of bounty hunter very viable in Eve), and you can even see how big the accumulated bounty is. All the individual bounty bids go into an escrow, and are paid to the player who ultimately kills the target. It's a fantastic PVP bounty system.
11.) Easy to Get Into: You don't have to be uber to PVP. New players can get into it very quickly. I was PVPing in my 2nd week of the game. In every encounter you learn, adapt, and become better. Equipment counts, but strategy and counter strategy can easily turn the tables -- allowing the smarter (but lesser equipped) player to win. Strategy and counter strategy come from the experience of past PVP encounters. The more you PVP, the better you get at it.
12.) Conquest of Space: The basic premise of the game, at least the aspect that I'm currently taking part in, involves conquering space. In order for your corporation to expand it's empire, it needs to constantly harass and/or defeat other corporations who may be vieing for the same region of space. That means the PVP, at least for those of us playing in lawless 0.0 space, is forced. We have to hold our territories to be successful. We have to attack other corporations to expand. We have to expand to survive. Everyone who plays in lawless 0.0 space knows this -- and we're all at each other's throats. And none of it is personal. It's just war.
All in all, I was expecting to really dislike Eve, but I've come to find it a very interesting game.
Wow, you make me want to actually try EVE.....I ran in to two EVE obstacles: 1: my GF plays and I watched her lose some very snazzy ships and have to essentially start over, which seemed harsh (if appropriate) given the severe amount of time this game requires one to invest.....and 2: I fell asleep during the tutorial. So it may be hopeless for me GC:V may be my only hope, I guess....
But still, you're assesment of EVE makes it sound very interesting!
As far as pvp goes, i prefer playing games that are pvp.
However. Too many games have elements which make the pvp somewhat overly difficult.
Ok. Lets look back at EQ1 when they had pvp on ralos which was 4 levels above and below... that wasnt too bad, but a lvl 4 trying to kill a lvl 8 was a bit difficult unless the lvl 8 was almost dead... but a lvl 8 could waste the lvl 4 with no probs... of course i am not including either having high lvl buffs from friends. Just stock standard characters using their own available spells if any.
Then later they went to 8 lvls above and below. Way too much!
Targeting is another area which only made things easier for casters. Once targeted, you were always going to get dead if you stayed in the area.
Now funnily enough when playing a melee char, the good players would try and get behind his oponent... LOS.
Line Of Sight... this is what the casters should've had also.
In my opinion and it is only my opinion, I think the most stable ans fairest way to implement good pvp would be the following:
Line Of Sight: if you are targeted but say you hide behind a tree or get behind the caster, said caster loses target since he is unable to see u. Would make for some skill to b required for players then. Not this auto gank, just coz he/she had u in target. Always all too easy for casters as it is. Have them have to work for their kills at least.
Same applies to melee chars. LOS only.
PVP only available for characters of 1 level in difference above and below your own. There will still be pvp but you will need to look harder to find those of similar level and everyone has pretty much an even chance. Even go so-far as same level only... I prefer the 1 level above and below... but the same level I could live with.
This would keep it all at a pretty level pecking.
If ppl would really like to be able to pvp disregarding difference in levels of say... a level 40 v a level 7, then perhaps a good idea would be the following:
When creating a character you have the option of choocing say.... 8 skills or moves or abilities out of say 50 which can only be used during pvp battles. this way it is upto you how well u use those traits in pvp against your foe.
Of course this would mean you both may choose traits which may nullify one another or one will have a skill which would be a winning move... some may go more defensive and others more offensive... a possible option could be to have a menu pop up whenever you decide to pvp somone and you can choose 8 different skills before every time you will pvp.
Maybe you would need to learn these skills from different npc's in order to have them available. A good way for serious pvp'rs to set out on a quest to learn these abilities.
For fair and an even chance in winning pvp you need everyone to be almost even. Those skills/traits/abiolities i mentioned would need to have identical hit points for all parties... a level 45 shouldnt b able to hit any harder than a level 3 in pvp just because his level is so high.
Levels are great for PvE, but for PvP they suck... it is so out of whack it isnt funny.
But again, it all needs to be done so the combatants are within range and in LOS.
We could have a lvl 51 say with hmmm 40% more hp than a lvl11 but maybe that lvl has chosen his traits better and knows how to pvp better.. each time the lvl 51 takes a swing the lvl 11 takes a step back and then comes in with his own flurry or swing and connects... or gets in behind for a hit worth double... so in effect the lower level could win if he/she is smart... same applies to casters.. a high level caster can cast a spell but if you get out of his LOS then he wont have it all his own way. Perhaps the casters would need to choose a spot where they think u will b at any given time in order for their spells to stick.. a bit like an AE but with a say, radius of 3-4 char width in every direction..and if u move, well.. he/she chose wrongly. He/she still may score the hit but it wont be so cut and dry and a definate hit.
Well, this just what I think and I would love to see a game come out with such an even balance, especially in pvp.
Originally posted by Lindorn "the decade you wish would end is the one that started with UO and ended with WoW. i guess that is the direction you like, but i prefer the other one. i wish mmorpgs un-evolutioned back to UO. but what do i know! i am just a shortshighted and close minded father of modern gaming. have a good day" How can you say that avatar stats, gear, and ability are more important than player skill and then propose that we move back to UO.....that doesn't make any sense to me. UO was the breeding ground for what is now the current day PvP population. I really fail to see how the success and quality of UO does anything but completely contradict your points. You aren't really making any sense man, but there is no need to take offense to my words. As long as you continue to be presumptious and claim to be able to assert which type of games people "should" accept, then I will continue to rebuttle that you are overstepping your bounds.
i am no asserting which type of game people should play, it is you who fails to understand that RPGs are about characters and not about fast reflexes or higher framerates. i only said that if someone wanted to be uber thanks to their fast reflexes and eye to hand coordination, RPGs are not his games. but you are too self assured as to understand anything and only want to argue and sound smart. have fun, but i pity you.
i am no asserting which type of game people should play, it is you who fails to understand that RPGs are about characters and not about fast reflexes or higher framerates. i only said that if someone wanted to be uber thanks to their fast reflexes and eye to hand coordination, RPGs are not his games. but you are too self assured as to understand anything and only want to argue and sound smart. have fun, but i pity you.
So? Bring on the revolution I say! Cast out the slow, the stupid and the boring. If you wanna do math and chart out your every character with 15 diferent types of gear and skill sets, get EVE! All I ask is a big fucking gun, some kind of motorcycle like land type wehicle to explore the rich perpetual world WITH MY OWN skills and witts and reflexes and rage and second keyboard because I had to replace the first one for it's lack of structual integrity, because as much as wanna know when I am the one who wins (not the avatar) I also wanna now that I have lost so that I can get better.
Besides if all you see when you look at RPGs are stats and DoT and CD and cursed gear, I'm not sorry, but you're wasting good processing power.
Originally posted by SonofSeth Originally posted by apertotes
i am no asserting which type of game people should play, it is you who fails to understand that RPGs are about characters and not about fast reflexes or higher framerates. i only said that if someone wanted to be uber thanks to their fast reflexes and eye to hand coordination, RPGs are not his games. but you are too self assured as to understand anything and only want to argue and sound smart. have fun, but i pity you.
So? Bring on the revolution I say! Cast out the slow, the stupid and the boring. If you wanna do math and chart out your every character with 15 diferent types of gear and skill sets, get EVE! All I ask is a big fucking gun, some kind of motorcycle like land type wehicle to explore the rich perpetual world WITH MY OWN skills and witts and reflexes and rage and second keyboard because I had to replace the first one for it's lack of structual integrity, because as much as wanna know when I am the one who wins (not the avatar) I also wanna now that I have lost so that I can get better. Besides if all you see when you look at RPGs are stats and DoT and CD and cursed gear, I'm not sorry, but you're wasting good processing power.
well, then ask Crytek to make a Far Cry MMO, but dont try to convince me that Far Cry is a RPG
I generally dont like PVP in gearbased MMO's. The whole concept to first having to lvl in PVE before you can compete in PVP is ridiculous to me. The fact that someone who played many hours PVE, is at an advantage in PVP is also ridiculous. Especially in a game where you have mindboggling PVE chores to do to get equipment that lets you compete at the same level.
Ive lost so many times simply because my opponent did critical damage several times because of his far better weapon (as opposed to my armour). Even playing flawlessly, you still get owned by someone in better gear.
One problems with those heavy gearbased games is that you rarely see any counterskills like you have in Guild Wars. So especially in something like Battlegrounds you see rarely more tactics then that of a punching bag. Or simply trying to outnumber your enemy. I prefer this kind of system in RvR. Where PVP has nothing to do with personal competing, but simply evolves to complete war. Im not planning to play an old game like DAoC, so I guess I have to wait for the next game with interesting RvR. Untill then I keep playing Guild Wars for PVP. At least you see some teamtactics in that game.
well, then ask Crytek to make a Far Cry MMO, but dont try to convince me that Far Cry is a RPG
Ah comon man, you can do better than that. Fuck FarCry, it's one of the most boring FPS games I played, no story, no diversity, nothing to compel me to finish. I just want a game where I don't have to be retarded or a crybaby or phisicaly chalenged to enjoy.
It's the new millenium, we got the technology, we got the knowhow, we got more geme devs than ever before, GET TO WORKING and stop making reruns!
Role Playing Game, do you even grasp the posibilitys of what those 3 words can mean and yet all you see is one definition that came to be at a time where there was no technology, or devs or knowhow and all the cool posibilitys we have now. Bring on the dynamic, interactive, intuitive and fun and kill the old, and destroy the slow, boring and stupid complexity that was there in the first place because it all came to be from text based beginings...
Give me 1 gun but with it unlimited freedom to use it how I choose or modify it or show it up.... GIVE ME THE POWER TO ACTUALY DO SOMETHING, KILL THE GODS AND LET'S TAKE THE CONTROL WE RIGHTFULY DESERVE!!!
Originally posted by SonofSeth Originally posted by apertotes
well, then ask Crytek to make a Far Cry MMO, but dont try to convince me that Far Cry is a RPG
Ah comon man, you can do better than that. Fuck FarCry, it's one of the most boring FPS games I played, no story, no diversity, nothing to compel me to finish. I just want a game where I don't have to be retarded or a crybaby or phisicaly chalenged to enjoy. It's the new millenium, we got the technology, we got the knowhow, we got more geme devs than ever before, GET TO WORKING and stop making reruns! Role Playing Game, do you even grasp the posibilitys of what those 3 words can mean and yet all you see is one definition that came to be at a time where there was no technology, or devs or knowhow and all the cool posibilitys we have now. Bring on the dynamic, interactive, intuitive and fun and kill the old, and destroy the slow, boring and stupid complexity that was there in the first place because it all came to be from text based beginings... Give me 1 gun but with it unlimited freedom to use it how I choose or modify it or show it up.... GIVE ME THE POWER TO ACTUALY DO SOMETHING, KILL THE GODS AND LET'S TAKE THE CONTROL WE RIGHTFULY DESERVE!!!
well, i love complexity, and i don not think that slow gameplay is boring. i love Civilization games, and i hate rts games. you can say that rts are more technologycally advanced, and that turn based games are boring as hell, but i disagree. i do not need 3D impressive graphics, or Direct X 10 shaders to enjoy gaming.
but nothing of that changes the fact that RPGs, and for extension, MMORPGs, are about character progression. you are right wanting a mmo without character advancement or gear diversity, but do not call it rpg.
well, i love complexity, and i don not think that slow gameplay is boring. i love Civilization games, and i hate rts games. you can say that rts are more technologycally advanced, and that turn based games are boring as hell, but i disagree. i do not need 3D impressive graphics, or Direct X 10 shaders to enjoy gaming. but nothing of that changes the fact that RPGs, and for extension, MMORPGs, are about character progression. you are right wanting a mmo without character advancement or gear diversity, but do not call it rpg.
Are you gona turn into a spell/definition checker like that other tool? I show you how open minded you can be but you still hold on to what is familiar.
Character progression is what it is and what it isn't is only gear+stats progression. With interactive world the way you progress can be oriented more to social abilitys, status or some kind of position of power where instead of having milion HP you get NPC bodyguards because you are a high priority target and you get to say, OK NOW WE DO THIS, but you can still be killed like the rest of us, only it takes a well executed plan.
Technology is not only graphics, SPORE is an excelent example of new technologys with graphics that look even more cartoonyer than WoW. But hey, looks like it's my fault expecting people to actualy know something when speaking or even think (blasphemy!).
So defending the current definition of RPG with ignorance and no imagination whatsoever isn't much to be proud with.
One good example that I almost never see mentioned regarding a PvP game is the first one I ever played and loved minus the bugs...Shadowbane. Alot of people scoff at the open PvP but when people play a mmorpg it's a roll playing game....and while annoying to get pwned by a lvl 75 when your 20 sucks I feel this gives a player more drive to achieve a higher level for pay back. In shadowbane who your guildmates were and what guild you were in was the most important piece of the puzzle. In games like WoW, of which I have been playing for a few years now, being limited to killing just horde sucks. Seeing the guild smack talk cracks me up, your guild sucks, my guild rocks....whooptie doo it's a name, tabard, and a chat channel....WoW indeed! In an open PvP who you belong too is important, screw with the wrong guild, lip off too much, gank the wrong guy...your guilds hard work they put into their city and shops and means of making money is gone and burned to the ground or worse taken over by the opposing guild. Also the concept of graveyards in WoW annoy the heck outta me. I just killed this guy and he's right back on me before i can engage the next guy in line.....Shadowbane..you die you go to your home town even if it's on another island not 5 ft. from the battle to rise from the dead and re-attack your killer rediculous. Also before I get hammered I know that shadowbane had endless performance issues and eventually failed but I am making reference to the concept more so than the game it self. While the death penalty was a bit steep even for me since when you died your body could be looted and everything that wasn't equiped to your person was up for grabs by the killing player, including your money and items you just spend 5 hours farming....this was a bit extreme. I personally can't wait for Age of Conan, from what I have read and seen online it is everything Shadowbane should have been. Now let's just hope that the interface isn't insanely complicated.
"Role Playing Game, do you even grasp the posibilitys of what those 3 words can mean and yet all you see is one definition that came to be at a time where there was no technology, or devs or knowhow and all the cool posibilitys we have now."
Well said. It is that security blanket most people have with mainstream conceptual design that leaves us nowhere as far as innovation in the gaming industry. Son you are the only person on this thread who has it together. The fact that a lot of people still feel that RPG's must have monotonous grinds and experience based progression are standing on very weak ground. Even pen and paper RPG's were nothing like what we see today in the mainstream. If my game master had ever taken me on an adventure that was anything like the average day in WoW I would have kicked him to the curb.
www.revolutiong.com Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
My favorite kind of PvP is one that is FFA, but still has a system in place that allows Guild vs Guild fights. That's one of the reasons Asheron's Call is the only MMO I really got addicted to for years. You could attack anybody at anytime, but there were consequences for your actions. Those consequences were dealt out by other players, and not by some system forced upon us. Guild vs Guild fights happened all the time, and raiding other guilds dungeons is soooooo much fun.
The author of this article hit the nail on the head when he said it really can add to PvP when you have to watch your back. When even your own allies can attack you, and people can stab you in the back. It really added depth to the game, and the players created their own stories of betrayal. Alliances were formed and enemies were made.
I just think it's so much better when the players create the story behind alliances, and not the game developers. Freedom is always better.
Though I can see why more casual, less competative gamers would be turned off by this type of play. Sometimes it can be a dog eat dog world when FFA rules are applied. To me it's just more rewarding then. You can't get all whinny and throw a fit just because your character dies. Just re-spawn and get over it. You'll never get better if your to afraid to die. As I said though, that's not everybody's thing.
_______________________________________________
"Getting it is easy. Filling it with illegal substances and sending accross the border is not." -Ignignokt
well, i love complexity, and i don not think that slow gameplay is boring. i love Civilization games, and i hate rts games. you can say that rts are more technologycally advanced, and that turn based games are boring as hell, but i disagree. i do not need 3D impressive graphics, or Direct X 10 shaders to enjoy gaming. but nothing of that changes the fact that RPGs, and for extension, MMORPGs, are about character progression. you are right wanting a mmo without character advancement or gear diversity, but do not call it rpg.
Are you gona turn into a spell/definition checker like that other tool? I show you how open minded you can be but you still hold on to what is familiar.
Character progression is what it is and what it isn't is only gear+stats progression. With interactive world the way you progress can be oriented more to social abilitys, status or some kind of position of power where instead of having milion HP you get NPC bodyguards because you are a high priority target and you get to say, OK NOW WE DO THIS, but you can still be killed like the rest of us, only it takes a well executed plan.
Technology is not only graphics, SPORE is an excelent example of new technologys with graphics that look even more cartoonyer than WoW. But hey, looks like it's my fault expecting people to actualy know something when speaking or even think (blasphemy!).
So defending the current definition of RPG with ignorance and no imagination whatsoever isn't much to be proud with.
you are misunderstanding me. i am not saying that gear and levels are all there is in a game. all i am saying is that there has to be some kind of character development, or else we'll have just another Second Life. Maybe that is what you are after: no levels, no grind, interactive world, social oriented... maybe that is the ultimate mmorpg for you. but to me, that lacks the "game" part.
Even Spore will have a race/society evolution or development.
or maybe, it is just that what you are looking for is not a RPG. look at the best rpgs of computer history. they all have character advancement, either by levels or skills, or attributes. all of them. you might even look at pen&paper rpgs and tell me how many of them lack any character development.
i am not arguing that interactive worlds or social oriented games are bad. all i am saying is that character development is needed for a game to be a RPG.
i think that the current mmorpg trend is lacking many great features, specially on the non-combat side of things, but i dont think that taking out skills or gear diversity is any good.
you are misunderstanding me. i am not saying that gear and levels are all there is in a game. all i am saying is that there has to be some kind of character development, or else we'll have just another Second Life. Maybe that is what you are after: no levels, no grind, interactive world, social oriented... maybe that is the ultimate mmorpg for you. but to me, that lacks the "game" part.
Even Spore will have a race/society evolution or development. or maybe, it is just that what you are looking for is not a RPG. look at the best rpgs of computer history. they all have character advancement, either by levels or skills, or attributes. all of them. you might even look at pen&paper rpgs and tell me how many of them lack any character development. i am not arguing that interactive worlds or social oriented games are bad. all i am saying is that character development is needed for a game to be a RPG. i think that the current mmorpg trend is lacking many great features, specially on the non-combat side of things, but i dont think that taking out skills or gear diversity is any good.
If you patronize me, do I patronize you back? I'm new at this, could you give me a hand?
Well I don't have time to read over the previous 45 post to see if any veteran, (veteran in the sense that person has been playing mmorpg's since their creation) of mmorpg's posted on the correct reply so here you go. OH can't wait ! hold on folks we have a "Veteran" posting now! PvP's place in mmorpg's are basically prefered by people who use scripts, exploits or hacks. Also by griefers who have no life and have 24/7 to play over other gamers to max or close to maxing out their characters to go back and kill low level players. OH OH!! looks like our "veteran" got his nuts kicked in and because he's a "veteran" they must have been exploiting! The shame of it all!
As well as that there are those griefers who find a group to gang up on or what is called ganking another player. Hmm I guess the enemy should've just bowed and asked you to fight one on one? Love the word Gank and how people use it to excuse the fact they got their feelings hurt because the died in a video game. Hell I see people all the time claiming they got ganked by ONE person lol No...there is no skill in fighting other players in mmorpg type of games whatsoever. If you PVP at all in a MMORPG you would know this is not true. Hence you don't Mr. "veteran" carebear. So please go back to standing somewhere in game AFK modeling you uber gear for all to see. True skill are those individuals who are skilled with the keyboard and mouse fighting another player hence FPS online games. Once again because you don't PVP the people that are skilled, know what they can and cannot do when fighting. They know the other classes they fight and they know their own. You take the majority of the mmorpg PvPers and throw them into that world with me which I have seen before, they lack true skill and get owned everytime. IT's your story man make it as big as you want to. You've shown so much cred here on this topic that I feel i'm in the presence of a PVP god. Besides didnt' you just say there is NO skill in MMORPG PVP? So what is skill then???? How well your scripts work? How well you utilize exploits within the game? How well your hack works? Once again sorry you wondered on a PVP server and got served by somebody lower level that you and NOT a "veteran". I'm sure it was a very harsh experience that has left you badly scarred Or how truly good you are when it is pure skill with the keyboard and mouse vs skill of character, how many potions you have to survive or the scripts, exploits and hacks you use?? Please.. man you have to get over the fact that you died in a video game by a player. It's NOT healthy! No sense in hiding in the dark in the fetal position and crying. Whatever your method of PvP in mmorpg's these are the questions to ask which are based 100% on FACT. Fact that you got owned and cried that they hacked? I agree some people do hack but most do not. Fact! Another FACT is some people can't handle being killed in a video game so they cry HAX everytime they die. Just need to tone down the ego a little and realize it's a game. You should stick to PVE because I feel your just too fragile to handle PVP. I'm sure your a PVE god!! I can just see the NPC's shaking in their boots Yes players use hacks in FPS online games as well but not to the extent they are in mmorpg's. People use hacks in any game. I'm surprised being a "veteran" you didn't know this. Don't reply to my post, don't even reply with a stupid comeback. Instead ponder on what is FACT which I listed among the many and ask these questions to yourself. The only questions I'm asking are: just how badly did you get spanked? Will the bruse on your ego ever heal? How far did you throw your keyboard? Did you actually cry in RL when the other players abused you?
Sorry had to respond. Love carebears who weigh in on PVP
I think gear to some extent should decide on the PvP but also player skill is needed. This is why im looking forward to AoC. It doesnt seem to be as level locked as other MMORPG's.
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
man. owned+pwned does not even begin to describe the amount of Kapow that this "Veteran" just took.
Most people on this thread who see PvP in stereotypical eyes of hackers and exploiters are usually the "victims" of players who know why they chose to play on a pvp server.
Being on a pvp server is not about 1v1 fighting. If you wanted that, you most certainly could do that on the carebear servers.
The main Principle of PvP servers is: Players can attack you when you least expect it.
And that is what most of the players are willing to ante up on the table. Beyond mental strategy of "Getting the target's HP down to 0%" there is a tact that is often taken personally with loners on pvp servers. It's not personal (unless you really provoked them) to kill someone.
The "Red= Dead" is just a view of some PvPers. They arent specifically out to get you. Its the fact that you just came into their crosshairs and got kap0wed.
I have been on servers where it was open pvp. But players chose to fight unless instigated. They chose Diplomacy over Kill On Sight. Right there the players made up the rules (over the rules that were in play) thats fine and dandy.
But when it comes down to it. People complain about how others who do not follow the leader in "peaceful situations." They used to complain about the PKer (Player Killers) and everyone else was "Anti-PK." When the whole server is PvPing and war spills over the land. The question isn't who is a PKer- its rather, "Who is pvping atm?"
Player Killing is the wildcard of all games because it does take a secondary level of learning to understand how the game works, when players are controlling the avatar.Everyone knows how to kill a lvl 1 rat- you just beat it down and hope you hit more than you miss.
With players, there is a lot more strategy, running up to someone, how are they going to react?
Run or Defend? If they run, are they running towards their friends or the city?
If they defend are they holding off until their friends get there Or does he/she have a better stat advantage over you?
If youre attacking, are you running into a 2v1 or a 2v2 1v1. Even in PvE your tactics change when fighting 1,2,3 or more mobs. PvP is the same way- tendencies and reactions have to be calculated.
Take the matrix Online, Its very easy to escape from a pvp situation because everyone can superjump away. They can jump from building to building and more often than not-escape. But catching someone that is jumping from rooftop to rooftop- you have to see where they are going and get a step quicker than them.
It takes real human instincts to fight people. It takes just as much teamwork in PvE raids and communication to acheive victory in guild vs guild (atleast 50 ppl fighting at one time). There is coordination (most times) and should never be considered the "bad apples" of any MMO.
"Tell me what your gamer plays. Show me why you pay. Teach me every single part. I'll be your guide. You are a prisoner. Cash-cowing slows you down. You can change your game. But can't change your mind. No matter what they do."
Ide have to say the best experience ive seen for PVP would be Ultima Online. This game is a classic and has a great pvp system. Has all the correct zoning needed, to play safe or to play hardcore and see how creative you could be on your next next pk attempt. The trammel and felluca system just made it that much easier to organize the pvp and pking. But my best pvp experience were on the ultima online free shards that would design the entire world for strictly pvp. You start all capped out on skills and start with all the supplies you need and you just go at it. This was a great way to get experienced with pvp for when you played the main ultima servers, but also turned out to be some awesome fun, almost to the level of quake 3 arena shoot them and watch them explode fun.
Comments
"the decade you wish would end is the one that started with UO and ended with WoW. i guess that is the direction you like, but i prefer the other one. i wish mmorpgs un-evolutioned back to UO. but what do i know! i am just a shortshighted and close minded father of modern gaming.
have a good day"
How can you say that avatar stats, gear, and ability are more important than player skill and then propose that we move back to UO.....that doesn't make any sense to me. UO was the breeding ground for what is now the current day PvP population. I really fail to see how the success and quality of UO does anything but completely contradict your points.
You aren't really making any sense man, but there is no need to take offense to my words. As long as you continue to be presumptious and claim to be able to assert which type of games people "should" accept, then I will continue to rebuttle that you are overstepping your bounds.
www.revolutiong.com
Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
OMG!! Intelectual MMORPGers, the world realy is coming to an end! Run and hide, run and hide!
But 1 question always arises when facing a pointless dilemma, is it better to be stupid and boring and not be aware of it, or smart and boring but having relentless faith in self?
" OMG!! Intelectual MMORPGers, the world realy is coming to an end! Run and hide, run and hide!
But 1 question always arises when facing a pointless dilemma, is it better to be stupid and boring and not be aware of it, or smart and boring but having relentless faith in self?"
Hehe yea who would have thunk it......MMORPGers that think about the games they play. A pointless dilemna to one person could cause another to wage a crusade. I don't have relentless faith in myself....I have relentless faith in the ideas I convey, which aren't all mine, but many people's. I don't think anyone could argue against the fact that the gaming industry needs change....and unless us gamers know what that is....how can we expect anyone else to?
www.revolutiong.com
Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
1 game for each playstyle!! And SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE!
You first my friend.
www.revolutiong.com
Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
if we are talking pvp there is only one game worth the mention, Darkfall
Wow, you make me want to actually try EVE.....I ran in to two EVE obstacles: 1: my GF plays and I watched her lose some very snazzy ships and have to essentially start over, which seemed harsh (if appropriate) given the severe amount of time this game requires one to invest.....and 2: I fell asleep during the tutorial. So it may be hopeless for me GC:V may be my only hope, I guess....
But still, you're assesment of EVE makes it sound very interesting!
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
I agree. Eve was a boring game!
As far as pvp goes, i prefer playing games that are pvp.
However. Too many games have elements which make the pvp somewhat overly difficult.
Ok. Lets look back at EQ1 when they had pvp on ralos which was 4 levels above and below... that wasnt too bad, but a lvl 4 trying to kill a lvl 8 was a bit difficult unless the lvl 8 was almost dead... but a lvl 8 could waste the lvl 4 with no probs... of course i am not including either having high lvl buffs from friends. Just stock standard characters using their own available spells if any.
Then later they went to 8 lvls above and below. Way too much!
Targeting is another area which only made things easier for casters. Once targeted, you were always going to get dead if you stayed in the area.
Now funnily enough when playing a melee char, the good players would try and get behind his oponent... LOS.
Line Of Sight... this is what the casters should've had also.
In my opinion and it is only my opinion, I think the most stable ans fairest way to implement good pvp would be the following:
Line Of Sight: if you are targeted but say you hide behind a tree or get behind the caster, said caster loses target since he is unable to see u. Would make for some skill to b required for players then. Not this auto gank, just coz he/she had u in target. Always all too easy for casters as it is. Have them have to work for their kills at least.
Same applies to melee chars. LOS only.
PVP only available for characters of 1 level in difference above and below your own. There will still be pvp but you will need to look harder to find those of similar level and everyone has pretty much an even chance. Even go so-far as same level only... I prefer the 1 level above and below... but the same level I could live with.
This would keep it all at a pretty level pecking.
If ppl would really like to be able to pvp disregarding difference in levels of say... a level 40 v a level 7, then perhaps a good idea would be the following:
When creating a character you have the option of choocing say.... 8 skills or moves or abilities out of say 50 which can only be used during pvp battles. this way it is upto you how well u use those traits in pvp against your foe.
Of course this would mean you both may choose traits which may nullify one another or one will have a skill which would be a winning move... some may go more defensive and others more offensive... a possible option could be to have a menu pop up whenever you decide to pvp somone and you can choose 8 different skills before every time you will pvp.
Maybe you would need to learn these skills from different npc's in order to have them available. A good way for serious pvp'rs to set out on a quest to learn these abilities.
For fair and an even chance in winning pvp you need everyone to be almost even. Those skills/traits/abiolities i mentioned would need to have identical hit points for all parties... a level 45 shouldnt b able to hit any harder than a level 3 in pvp just because his level is so high.
Levels are great for PvE, but for PvP they suck... it is so out of whack it isnt funny.
But again, it all needs to be done so the combatants are within range and in LOS.
We could have a lvl 51 say with hmmm 40% more hp than a lvl11 but maybe that lvl has chosen his traits better and knows how to pvp better.. each time the lvl 51 takes a swing the lvl 11 takes a step back and then comes in with his own flurry or swing and connects... or gets in behind for a hit worth double... so in effect the lower level could win if he/she is smart... same applies to casters.. a high level caster can cast a spell but if you get out of his LOS then he wont have it all his own way. Perhaps the casters would need to choose a spot where they think u will b at any given time in order for their spells to stick.. a bit like an AE but with a say, radius of 3-4 char width in every direction..and if u move, well.. he/she chose wrongly. He/she still may score the hit but it wont be so cut and dry and a definate hit.
Well, this just what I think and I would love to see a game come out with such an even balance, especially in pvp.
Axxiss
i am no asserting which type of game people should play, it is you who fails to understand that RPGs are about characters and not about fast reflexes or higher framerates. i only said that if someone wanted to be uber thanks to their fast reflexes and eye to hand coordination, RPGs are not his games. but you are too self assured as to understand anything and only want to argue and sound smart. have fun, but i pity you.
Besides if all you see when you look at RPGs are stats and DoT and CD and cursed gear, I'm not sorry, but you're wasting good processing power.
Besides if all you see when you look at RPGs are stats and DoT and CD and cursed gear, I'm not sorry, but you're wasting good processing power.
well, then ask Crytek to make a Far Cry MMO, but dont try to convince me that Far Cry is a RPG
I generally dont like PVP in gearbased MMO's. The whole concept to first having to lvl in PVE before you can compete in PVP is ridiculous to me. The fact that someone who played many hours PVE, is at an advantage in PVP is also ridiculous. Especially in a game where you have mindboggling PVE chores to do to get equipment that lets you compete at the same level.
Ive lost so many times simply because my opponent did critical damage several times because of his far better weapon (as opposed to my armour). Even playing flawlessly, you still get owned by someone in better gear.
One problems with those heavy gearbased games is that you rarely see any counterskills like you have in Guild Wars. So especially in something like Battlegrounds you see rarely more tactics then that of a punching bag. Or simply trying to outnumber your enemy. I prefer this kind of system in RvR. Where PVP has nothing to do with personal competing, but simply evolves to complete war. Im not planning to play an old game like DAoC, so I guess I have to wait for the next game with interesting RvR. Untill then I keep playing Guild Wars for PVP. At least you see some teamtactics in that game.
It's the new millenium, we got the technology, we got the knowhow, we got more geme devs than ever before, GET TO WORKING and stop making reruns!
Role Playing Game, do you even grasp the posibilitys of what those 3 words can mean and yet all you see is one definition that came to be at a time where there was no technology, or devs or knowhow and all the cool posibilitys we have now. Bring on the dynamic, interactive, intuitive and fun and kill the old, and destroy the slow, boring and stupid complexity that was there in the first place because it all came to be from text based beginings...
Give me 1 gun but with it unlimited freedom to use it how I choose or modify it or show it up.... GIVE ME THE POWER TO ACTUALY DO SOMETHING, KILL THE GODS AND LET'S TAKE THE CONTROL WE RIGHTFULY DESERVE!!!
It's the new millenium, we got the technology, we got the knowhow, we got more geme devs than ever before, GET TO WORKING and stop making reruns!
Role Playing Game, do you even grasp the posibilitys of what those 3 words can mean and yet all you see is one definition that came to be at a time where there was no technology, or devs or knowhow and all the cool posibilitys we have now. Bring on the dynamic, interactive, intuitive and fun and kill the old, and destroy the slow, boring and stupid complexity that was there in the first place because it all came to be from text based beginings...
Give me 1 gun but with it unlimited freedom to use it how I choose or modify it or show it up.... GIVE ME THE POWER TO ACTUALY DO SOMETHING, KILL THE GODS AND LET'S TAKE THE CONTROL WE RIGHTFULY DESERVE!!!
well, i love complexity, and i don not think that slow gameplay is boring. i love Civilization games, and i hate rts games. you can say that rts are more technologycally advanced, and that turn based games are boring as hell, but i disagree. i do not need 3D impressive graphics, or Direct X 10 shaders to enjoy gaming.
but nothing of that changes the fact that RPGs, and for extension, MMORPGs, are about character progression. you are right wanting a mmo without character advancement or gear diversity, but do not call it rpg.
Character progression is what it is and what it isn't is only gear+stats progression. With interactive world the way you progress can be oriented more to social abilitys, status or some kind of position of power where instead of having milion HP you get NPC bodyguards because you are a high priority target and you get to say, OK NOW WE DO THIS, but you can still be killed like the rest of us, only it takes a well executed plan.
Technology is not only graphics, SPORE is an excelent example of new technologys with graphics that look even more cartoonyer than WoW. But hey, looks like it's my fault expecting people to actualy know something when speaking or even think (blasphemy!).
So defending the current definition of RPG with ignorance and no imagination whatsoever isn't much to be proud with.
One good example that I almost never see mentioned regarding a PvP game is the first one I ever played and loved minus the bugs...Shadowbane. Alot of people scoff at the open PvP but when people play a mmorpg it's a roll playing game....and while annoying to get pwned by a lvl 75 when your 20 sucks I feel this gives a player more drive to achieve a higher level for pay back. In shadowbane who your guildmates were and what guild you were in was the most important piece of the puzzle. In games like WoW, of which I have been playing for a few years now, being limited to killing just horde sucks. Seeing the guild smack talk cracks me up, your guild sucks, my guild rocks....whooptie doo it's a name, tabard, and a chat channel....WoW indeed! In an open PvP who you belong too is important, screw with the wrong guild, lip off too much, gank the wrong guy...your guilds hard work they put into their city and shops and means of making money is gone and burned to the ground or worse taken over by the opposing guild. Also the concept of graveyards in WoW annoy the heck outta me. I just killed this guy and he's right back on me before i can engage the next guy in line.....Shadowbane..you die you go to your home town even if it's on another island not 5 ft. from the battle to rise from the dead and re-attack your killer rediculous. Also before I get hammered I know that shadowbane had endless performance issues and eventually failed but I am making reference to the concept more so than the game it self. While the death penalty was a bit steep even for me since when you died your body could be looted and everything that wasn't equiped to your person was up for grabs by the killing player, including your money and items you just spend 5 hours farming....this was a bit extreme. I personally can't wait for Age of Conan, from what I have read and seen online it is everything Shadowbane should have been. Now let's just hope that the interface isn't insanely complicated.
"Role Playing Game, do you even grasp the posibilitys of what those 3 words can mean and yet all you see is one definition that came to be at a time where there was no technology, or devs or knowhow and all the cool posibilitys we have now."
Well said. It is that security blanket most people have with mainstream conceptual design that leaves us nowhere as far as innovation in the gaming industry. Son you are the only person on this thread who has it together. The fact that a lot of people still feel that RPG's must have monotonous grinds and experience based progression are standing on very weak ground. Even pen and paper RPG's were nothing like what we see today in the mainstream. If my game master had ever taken me on an adventure that was anything like the average day in WoW I would have kicked him to the curb.
www.revolutiong.com
Stand up and take part in the evolution of MMORPG's.
Hahaha, so true!
My favorite kind of PvP is one that is FFA, but still has a system in place that allows Guild vs Guild fights. That's one of the reasons Asheron's Call is the only MMO I really got addicted to for years. You could attack anybody at anytime, but there were consequences for your actions. Those consequences were dealt out by other players, and not by some system forced upon us. Guild vs Guild fights happened all the time, and raiding other guilds dungeons is soooooo much fun.
The author of this article hit the nail on the head when he said it really can add to PvP when you have to watch your back. When even your own allies can attack you, and people can stab you in the back. It really added depth to the game, and the players created their own stories of betrayal. Alliances were formed and enemies were made.
I just think it's so much better when the players create the story behind alliances, and not the game developers. Freedom is always better.
Though I can see why more casual, less competative gamers would be turned off by this type of play. Sometimes it can be a dog eat dog world when FFA rules are applied. To me it's just more rewarding then. You can't get all whinny and throw a fit just because your character dies. Just re-spawn and get over it. You'll never get better if your to afraid to die. As I said though, that's not everybody's thing.
_______________________________________________
"Getting it is easy. Filling it with illegal substances and sending accross the border is not."
-Ignignokt
---Playing---
Asheron's Call
Character progression is what it is and what it isn't is only gear+stats progression. With interactive world the way you progress can be oriented more to social abilitys, status or some kind of position of power where instead of having milion HP you get NPC bodyguards because you are a high priority target and you get to say, OK NOW WE DO THIS, but you can still be killed like the rest of us, only it takes a well executed plan.
Technology is not only graphics, SPORE is an excelent example of new technologys with graphics that look even more cartoonyer than WoW. But hey, looks like it's my fault expecting people to actualy know something when speaking or even think (blasphemy!).
So defending the current definition of RPG with ignorance and no imagination whatsoever isn't much to be proud with.
you are misunderstanding me. i am not saying that gear and levels are all there is in a game. all i am saying is that there has to be some kind of character development, or else we'll have just another Second Life. Maybe that is what you are after: no levels, no grind, interactive world, social oriented... maybe that is the ultimate mmorpg for you. but to me, that lacks the "game" part.
Even Spore will have a race/society evolution or development.
or maybe, it is just that what you are looking for is not a RPG. look at the best rpgs of computer history. they all have character advancement, either by levels or skills, or attributes. all of them. you might even look at pen&paper rpgs and tell me how many of them lack any character development.
i am not arguing that interactive worlds or social oriented games are bad. all i am saying is that character development is needed for a game to be a RPG.
i think that the current mmorpg trend is lacking many great features, specially on the non-combat side of things, but i dont think that taking out skills or gear diversity is any good.
If you patronize me, do I patronize you back? I'm new at this, could you give me a hand?
Sorry had to respond. Love carebears who weigh in on PVP
I think gear to some extent should decide on the PvP but also player skill is needed. This is why im looking forward to AoC. It doesnt seem to be as level locked as other MMORPG's.
man. owned+pwned does not even begin to describe the amount of Kapow that this "Veteran" just took.
Most people on this thread who see PvP in stereotypical eyes of hackers and exploiters are usually the "victims" of players who know why they chose to play on a pvp server.
Being on a pvp server is not about 1v1 fighting. If you wanted that, you most certainly could do that on the carebear servers.
The main Principle of PvP servers is: Players can attack you when you least expect it.
And that is what most of the players are willing to ante up on the table. Beyond mental strategy of "Getting the target's HP down to 0%" there is a tact that is often taken personally with loners on pvp servers. It's not personal (unless you really provoked them) to kill someone.
The "Red= Dead" is just a view of some PvPers. They arent specifically out to get you. Its the fact that you just came into their crosshairs and got kap0wed.
I have been on servers where it was open pvp. But players chose to fight unless instigated. They chose Diplomacy over Kill On Sight. Right there the players made up the rules (over the rules that were in play) thats fine and dandy.
But when it comes down to it. People complain about how others who do not follow the leader in "peaceful situations." They used to complain about the PKer (Player Killers) and everyone else was "Anti-PK." When the whole server is PvPing and war spills over the land. The question isn't who is a PKer- its rather, "Who is pvping atm?"
Player Killing is the wildcard of all games because it does take a secondary level of learning to understand how the game works, when players are controlling the avatar.Everyone knows how to kill a lvl 1 rat- you just beat it down and hope you hit more than you miss.
With players, there is a lot more strategy, running up to someone, how are they going to react?
Run or Defend? If they run, are they running towards their friends or the city?
If they defend are they holding off until their friends get there Or does he/she have a better stat advantage over you?
If youre attacking, are you running into a 2v1 or a 2v2 1v1. Even in PvE your tactics change when fighting 1,2,3 or more mobs. PvP is the same way- tendencies and reactions have to be calculated.
Take the matrix Online, Its very easy to escape from a pvp situation because everyone can superjump away. They can jump from building to building and more often than not-escape. But catching someone that is jumping from rooftop to rooftop- you have to see where they are going and get a step quicker than them.
It takes real human instincts to fight people. It takes just as much teamwork in PvE raids and communication to acheive victory in guild vs guild (atleast 50 ppl fighting at one time). There is coordination (most times) and should never be considered the "bad apples" of any MMO.
"Tell me what your gamer plays.
Show me why you pay.
Teach me every single part. I'll be your guide.
You are a prisoner.
Cash-cowing slows you down.
You can change your game.
But can't change your mind.
No matter what they do."
Ide have to say the best experience ive seen for PVP would be Ultima Online. This game is a classic and has a great pvp system. Has all the correct zoning needed, to play safe or to play hardcore and see how creative you could be on your next next pk attempt. The trammel and felluca system just made it that much easier to organize the pvp and pking. But my best pvp experience were on the ultima online free shards that would design the entire world for strictly pvp. You start all capped out on skills and start with all the supplies you need and you just go at it. This was a great way to get experienced with pvp for when you played the main ultima servers, but also turned out to be some awesome fun, almost to the level of quake 3 arena shoot them and watch them explode fun.