Now all we need is a humble apology from Smedley. That would be a VERY smart move on his part....but ummm I think he is more proud than smart, which is indeed a pity.
Still, given all we have seen, and the lack of an apology from Smed, the best I can give them is guarded optimism, heavy emphasis on the guarded. IF people DO come back now, it will be rewarding good behavior, and hopefully will lead to more of the same. I hope that clarifies things a bit better.
Being a CEO is not as easy as it sounds. I don't envy the guy's position at all; I never have. It's worse for him that he's a CEO of an entire gaming development/deployment branch as the work for smaller companies is pretty overwhelming on it's own.
The problem with being a CEO is that everyone takes his word as the word of God (metaphorically speaking, they're not far off). CEOs are primarily salesmen, so if they sell something wrong they still need to stand by the product. It looks worse for a salesman to sell a defective product and then turn around and say it is defective, rather than stand by the product to the bitter end.
I know, it sounds ass backwards -- and it is -- but that's how the capitalist world works. It's why good ole Smed still has a job.
The truth here can be seen in the backlash the CU and NGE received, and throughout the debacles he made a lot of crass assumptions that were ultimately turned against him. His word is used as "law" to prove things went bad and how bad they went (neglect of players, etc) and rarely in the good sense. Very few folks, if any, agree openly that the NGE was the best option for the game.
That said, an apology would really do nothing but "vindicate" everyone who's been against him. He's made attempts at apologies in the past, admitting that the NGE was more or less a mistake, but he can't really come out and say that he felt players were mistreated since that sets precedence for a lot more backlash. The most he can do is try to appease the vets in more subtle ways -- through these incremental reversions we've been seeing in the latest chapter(s) of SWG, listening to players, giving the development team(s) more room to operate with their specifications, etc.
The only true and acceptable apology -- the one that will practically forgive all sins -- is a classic server or two. I don't see it happening, but it really is all that simple. Hey, it worked for Mythic... and look where they are now.
A great many good CEOs have apologized to the public as part of a program to renew their company or a project their company screwed up and was trying to get back on track. There was an age of 'never apologize," but that's given way in this transparent society in which we now live. CEOs used to be able to hide behind corporate walls, but no longer. Information flies way to fast and cuts way to deep for that. Admitting the NGE was a mistake is a coward's apology, not an apology -- it is being to proud to actually apologize, and makes him look weak. That is why I advocate a real apology, an addition to continuing to bring things back to the game that vets like. There are ways to apologize that don't set you up for backlash -- you just have to be smart about it. I agree I would prefer a classic server, but what it a classic server was always doomed to operate at a loss? What if the game we loved was never profitable? I'm not saying that was the case, but it certainly seems feasable. When they talk about it being "impossible" that's what that always meant to me. In that case an apology would be all that's left. I've said many times that it's not necessary (at least for me), but it would be a GOOD move, a smart move, as Jack Welch and other smart CEO's who know they messed up can attest to.
What good would an apology do? What would he be apologizing for? The parts that are known to the public or the parts they keep hidden. How are we supposed to make a decision to return to an SOE game without knowing all the information? How do we know that they wont do something again when they still hide behind NDA's? What reason would i have to think that what they're NOT telling us would only cause subs to drop more? What reason would I have to think anything else. Why would I go back to any SOE game when thats all the information I have to make a decision? Rumor, speculation, mis- information is not how trust is rebuilt. At least not for me. When they're ready to have an open honest discussion..so that I can make an INFORMED decision..I'll consider not dismissing all that they say as marketing BS or lies. Because, in my personal experience with SOE..Lies and promises broken are all that they deal in. I wont consider going back, til I know what Im going back to. Can you understand what Im saying here?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Now all we need is a humble apology from Smedley. That would be a VERY smart move on his part....but ummm I think he is more proud than smart, which is indeed a pity.
Still, given all we have seen, and the lack of an apology from Smed, the best I can give them is guarded optimism, heavy emphasis on the guarded. IF people DO come back now, it will be rewarding good behavior, and hopefully will lead to more of the same. I hope that clarifies things a bit better.
Being a CEO is not as easy as it sounds. I don't envy the guy's position at all; I never have. It's worse for him that he's a CEO of an entire gaming development/deployment branch as the work for smaller companies is pretty overwhelming on it's own.
The problem with being a CEO is that everyone takes his word as the word of God (metaphorically speaking, they're not far off). CEOs are primarily salesmen, so if they sell something wrong they still need to stand by the product. It looks worse for a salesman to sell a defective product and then turn around and say it is defective, rather than stand by the product to the bitter end.
I know, it sounds ass backwards -- and it is -- but that's how the capitalist world works. It's why good ole Smed still has a job.
The truth here can be seen in the backlash the CU and NGE received, and throughout the debacles he made a lot of crass assumptions that were ultimately turned against him. His word is used as "law" to prove things went bad and how bad they went (neglect of players, etc) and rarely in the good sense. Very few folks, if any, agree openly that the NGE was the best option for the game.
That said, an apology would really do nothing but "vindicate" everyone who's been against him. He's made attempts at apologies in the past, admitting that the NGE was more or less a mistake, but he can't really come out and say that he felt players were mistreated since that sets precedence for a lot more backlash. The most he can do is try to appease the vets in more subtle ways -- through these incremental reversions we've been seeing in the latest chapter(s) of SWG, listening to players, giving the development team(s) more room to operate with their specifications, etc.
The only true and acceptable apology -- the one that will practically forgive all sins -- is a classic server or two. I don't see it happening, but it really is all that simple. Hey, it worked for Mythic... and look where they are now.
A great many good CEOs have apologized to the public as part of a program to renew their company or a project their company screwed up and was trying to get back on track. There was an age of 'never apologize," but that's given way in this transparent society in which we now live. CEOs used to be able to hide behind corporate walls, but no longer. Information flies way to fast and cuts way to deep for that. Admitting the NGE was a mistake is a coward's apology, not an apology -- it is being to proud to actually apologize, and makes him look weak. That is why I advocate a real apology, an addition to continuing to bring things back to the game that vets like. There are ways to apologize that don't set you up for backlash -- you just have to be smart about it. I agree I would prefer a classic server, but what it a classic server was always doomed to operate at a loss? What if the game we loved was never profitable? I'm not saying that was the case, but it certainly seems feasable. When they talk about it being "impossible" that's what that always meant to me. In that case an apology would be all that's left. I've said many times that it's not necessary (at least for me), but it would be a GOOD move, a smart move, as Jack Welch and other smart CEO's who know they messed up can attest to.
What good would an apology do? What would he be apologizing for? The parts that are known to the public or the parts they keep hidden. How are we supposed to make a decision to return to an SOE game without knowing all the information? How do we know that they wont do something again when they still hide behind NDA's? What reason would i have to think that what they're NOT telling us would only cause subs to drop more? What reason would I have to think anything else. Why would I go back to any SOE game when thats all the information I have to make a decision? Rumor, speculation, mis- information is not how trust is rebuilt. At least not for me. When they're ready to have an open honest discussion..so that I can make an INFORMED decision..I'll consider not dismissing all that they say as marketing BS or lies. Because, in my personal experience with SOE..Lies and promises broken are all that they deal in. I wont consider going back, til I know what Im going back to. Can you understand what Im saying here?
Of course I understand what your saying. Therefore, an apology won't do any good with you. That has no bearing on the effect it'll have on others. It's also the right thing to do. That's most important.
Ok. But I dont see an apology for something, letting some accept that apology, while hiding information that would make that apology meaningless the right thing to do. Or making it seem like your doing the right thing. Neither are noble imo..and it would only continue the same type BS and lies that got SOE into the situation they're in. What would happen if he apologized..then more information came out? That apology would be used to smear anything and everything having to do with SOE and SWG and more people would end up feeling like the biggest sucker that ever lived. All I can see..only using my experience with SWG and SOE..is a few people getting set up for future frustration by an apology from Smed. An apology means more than "im sorry"..it means I wont ever do it again...and the history of SOE tells me nothing but they will do whatever they want whenver they want. I mean an apology would be nice to hear...but not if there is a chance that even one more person gets hurt by a game because they believed Smed's apology was authentic. It will never happen anyway...I cant see their lawyers allowing it.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
They have already said they will never do it again. Smedley has said that as well. I'm going to hold him to it, to the best of my ability. None of this can ever hurt me in any way, it never has, I'm just not built that way that others can hurt me in that way.
It doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have done what they did, and he, in the name of his company should aplogize, in addition to the obvious of never doing it again.
SOE doesn't have much of a history -- this whole industry is way too new for anyone to have much of a history, but I get your point. I don't trust them either, as I've said elsewhere in this and other threads. What I am doing is explaining how trust, once lost, is rebuilt. So far they have done part of that, but not enough.
They have already said they will never do it again. Smedley has said that as well. I'm going to hold him to it, to the best of my ability. None of this can ever hurt me in any way, it never has, I'm just not built that way that others can hurt me in that way. It doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have done what they did, and he, in the name of his company should aplogize, in addition to the obvious of never doing it again. SOE doesn't have much of a history -- this whole industry is way too new for anyone to have much of a history, but I get your point. I don't trust them either, as I've said elsewhere in this and other threads. What I am doing is explaining how trust, once lost, is rebuilt. So far they have done part of that, but not enough.
They never said they wouldnt do it again. They said they woulndt make the same mistakes..or do great changes all at once. The only "wrong" the did in their eyes is in the way they communicated it to the playerbase...they even went further to say that they are proud to work for a company with guts to try it. They will still do whatever they want..just slower so you only have small outburts from players. For every quote you show of them implying that they wont do it again..i can give you 2 that show that they lie. BTW. Does SOE still charge full price for half finished expansions?er I mean with bugs that prevent you from accessing the content you paid for. Ah well i guess im splitting hairs now anyway. Trust is rebuilt on honesty...if an apology is the first step towards that..then all the power in the world to you.
my personal uneducated opinion..
Your being taken for a ride Fish..your a good person from what I can tell..and they're using that to serve themselves..just like they did with unagi..and others. I hope you have more than trust or willingness to start to trust to go on here...they left ol unagi out to dry when the shit hit. You are a respected member of the community..the easiest way to shut you up would be to make whatever you say worthless. Unagi used to be respected too and was a thorn in the side of the devs to about the same extent you are now...just saying be careful. Your a grown man and im sure you can take whatever is given to you and more..but be careful here none-the-less.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I don't trust them in the least. I like some of the recent changes. ChrisCao did say they would never do what they did again. Of course they still might do it again. Again, do I trust them? No. Do I like what has been done the last two publishes: mostly.
I'm still complaining about what I don't like, nothing has changed -- I just happen to actually LIKE a few of the people I am compaining to now (not Smedley, btw. I neither like him nor trust him, and his eyes are too close together anyway lol).
I always tried to be constructive, even if it is a deconstructive way. That hasn't changed either. I've always wanted the game to be good again. I still do, and the last two chapters have contained some of the things I think make it better. Not better than pre-CU or even the CU, but better. Worth playing, for me, which is more than I was able to say for many months prior.
My Smuggler BeastMaster is having a blast with pets, my wife is playing again too...my entertainer is having fun again buffing customers -- I'm even seeing adults playing again lol. It's better, and I am sharing that with folks. I've shared my opinion all along, my only agenda being I want the game to be good.
Thanks for at least believing I am a good person. The hatred I have been getting for all this is both sad and laughable. From accusations of being bought off to being brainwashed...yeesh the power some folks attribute to SOE.
I will be careful, for what it's worth. I don't trust them. Can I make it any clearer? I don't trust them. They are untrustworthy. They have yet to truly prove themselves, and still, as long as Smedley is at the helm, I probably will never trust them.
LOL. i get ya fish. Glad you can enjoy the game again as well. Good luck to you sir. Hope it works out for you guys remaining and the new people coming in. I really miss the game and the community, but its just not worth the risk of seeing it destroyed again. I really did love this game once. At least I got to play the best MMO ever made with the best community ever for a short time.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I don't trust them in the least. I like some of the recent changes. ChrisCao did say they would never do what they did again. Of course they still might do it again. Again, do I trust them? No. Do I like what has been done the last two publishes: mostly. I'm still complaining about what I don't like, nothing has changed -- I just happen to actually LIKE a few of the people I am compaining to now (not Smedley, btw. I neither like him nor trust him, and his eyes are too close together anyway lol). I always tried to be constructive, even if it is a deconstructive way. That hasn't changed either. I've always wanted the game to be good again. I still do, and the last two chapters have contained some of the things I think make it better. Not better than pre-CU or even the CU, but better. Worth playing, for me, which is more than I was able to say for many months prior. My Smuggler BeastMaster is having a blast with pets, my wife is playing again too...my entertainer is having fun again buffing customers -- I'm even seeing adults playing again lol. It's better, and I am sharing that with folks. I've shared my opinion all along, my only agenda being I want the game to be good. Thanks for at least believing I am a good person. The hatred I have been getting for all this is both sad and laughable. From accusations of being bought off to being brainwashed...yeesh the power some folks attribute to SOE. I will be careful, for what it's worth. I don't trust them. Can I make it any clearer? I don't trust them. They are untrustworthy. They have yet to truly prove themselves, and still, as long as Smedley is at the helm, I probably will never trust them. I don't trust them -- got that? I'm being playful but I mean it. Thanks again.
We used to talk now and then... (you and I that is). Maybe not here but on another forum.. that I don't want to get into.
Personally I don't have any bad feelings about what you say... I mean in all honesty they need to invite a LOT of people that have been critical. This is what they should have been doing with all those focus studies.
I was invited to 3 different focus groups.. but then since I'm 38.. I was to old.. So I actually see that as a step. Your liking the game isn't going to affect my liking the game (subjective material). So even if SOE did "buy you out" what's the point....
The sad part to me was when they put beastmaster in.. they could have brought back a lot of people (which they did) and retained them (which they didn't). Tho they keep now trying to claim how ful the servers ALL are (not some.. all...) I can still log in and see that this is false... some are (which some had decent pops anyway) and some you'd be lucky to have a group ever.. unless you bring your own.
So the sad part was.. they brought in beast master.. then went over the top with the NPC rebalance.. Having a large crowd standing in Mos Eisley talking all day.. doesn't really inspire people to stay subscribed who actually want to play.. (among other things).
Its also never been a matter of trust for me...
Somehow I keep thinking from a business side... and when you do that its more like..
why in the hell would anyone do this... or not do this... the point is to make money.. which means aquire and retain customers.
Everytime they move forward they make some other stupid change so that at best they retain the current number... they never really move forward... oh they let some idiot post on the forum who should never have posting rights (from soe I mean not the fans tho it can be true there too).. and lose more.
Having someone spout off how they are gonna ban "a bunch of people" ... cool do that... lose more customers... just to flex some forum muscle.
I mean... honestly... they need your money.. so within reason (your actions)... acting the way they do.. is costing them money. I.. in fact none of us need soe... its a totally optional thing.
So I guess in the end.. I find it odd how a business that is "for profit"... has so little clue how to make one.
That's been the basic problem I have with dealing with soe.. or in fact most mmo companies.
SOE just happened to ruin one of two mmo's that I ever really enjoyed.. and EA ruined the other one... I'm not exactly an SOE hater.. I just really don't understand how they can have so many people that just shouldn't ever have a public postion.. that have one..
/end ramble..
Oh wait.. But back to Fish... no I'd never have any bad thing to say about your experience or "change of heart"... who the heck would I be if I thought I did... I mean really. If you're having fun.. that's your point of view.. which is hard to argue with.
*edit* sorry for all the grammatical errors and probably somewhat insane threading of words. Its fairly late and I don't have the ability to fix most of this.. so I just wanted to say sorry....lol
Thanks a lot for your excellent input here. I quite agree with you about the combat dificulty increase -- they went overboard, and instead of listening to the heartfelt complaints by their returning customers, they are listening unfortunately to the flaming hyenas on the forums who flame anyone who expresses dissatisfaction of the difficulty increase.
When players voiced their issues, they were flamed with the usual CMN, Learn to Play, go play WoW, nonsense. The major difference here was THIS time the Horde was not ONLY composed of the same old fanboys -- this time, the Horde was now made up of many from the old anti-NGE faction.
Many of those that were against the NGE Easy mode (I am one of those but feel they went too far) thought this move was good, and flamed anyone who thought otherwise.
It's a bummer.
One thing I can ask is that if you are not too busy, and still have an account handy, pop on the forums and make a post (sorry if you get flamed), expressing exactly this sentiment -- that you wanted to try BeastMaster but the difficulty turned you off, and/or send DeadMeast and Blixtev a PM. It can't hurt. Any and all feedback is helpful. They ARE listening, if only to the loudest voices. It's a problem.
Either way thanks for your input, you are quite right in your assessment.
Sir, was SOE/LA ever truly in danger of losing your patronage?
You seem to be in the .1% hardcore Star Wars fanatic category (being a collector and all). I suspect the only thing that would drive you away as a customer would be to remove the Star Wars flavor entirely. You may have enjoyed one particular version of SWG more than others, but you've ultimately found the game enjoyable regardless.
I fall into the opposite end of the spectrum. It was the deep, skill-based eco/social/combat system (and the community it embraced and created) that I fell in love with. Even if SOE had removed everything Star Wars from the pre-CU, it wouldn't have bothered me that much. The actual game-play was much more important to me.
The manner in which the transition was handled is where the true angst emerges (for me). Its abrupt, ambush-like nature showed a complete and utter disrespect for their customers. The demeaning and poorly conceived statements attributed to certain individuals from Sony and LucasArts was just salt poured into an already gaping wound.
It'll be a cold day in hell before either of these companies sees one red cent from my pocket again.
I don't think losing my patronage is a question here. I am merely sharing my opinion of the state of the game and my opinion of some of the folks working on it currently. I understand what you miss, however, and I miss it as well. I heavily sympathize with your other opinions as well.
I hope someone comes up with a way to give us both that, and make it profitable, so it'll more likely stay that way. I hope they wait long enough to hold back on releasing it until it is ready. I hope for a lot of things.
Originally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
Originally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
When someone asks for water, that usually means they are THIRSTY -- not that they want something that flows (the comparative YOU drew). Hense, the analogy was deeply flawed. That is a leap of context and kind in an analogy, which makes it less apt than the ones I substituted it with. I suspect you don't respect me for other reasons that my bickering with your bad analogies -- no I suspect it has something to do with your choice of name and your agenda, and my refusal to side with you in your agenda, even if I agree that pre-CU was the better game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
When someone asks for water, that usually means they are THIRSTY -- not that they want something that flows (the comparative YOU drew). Hense, the analogy was deeply flawed. That is a leap of context and kind in an analogy, which makes it less apt than the ones I substituted it with. I suspect you don't respect me for other reasons that my bickering with your bad analogies -- no I suspect it has something to do with your choice of name and your agenda, and my refusal to side with you in your agenda, even if I agree that pre-CU was the better game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
the point of the analogy has nothing to do with the reason the person is asking for water, nor did you have any good reason for telling me it's wrong based on what you assume.
when you want water, you usually don't want oil. But you can make the flawed argument that it is a valid substitute because they both flow. You were making the same type of flawed argument when you said "partial return".
I didn't think I would need to explain it further but there you go.
I don't think losing my patronage is a question here. I am merely sharing my opinion of the state of the game and my opinion of some of the folks working on it currently. I understand what you miss, however, and I miss it as well. I heavily sympathize with your other opinions as well. I hope someone comes up with a way to give us both that, and make it profitable, so it'll more likely stay that way. I hope they wait long enough to hold back on releasing it until it is ready. I hope for a lot of things.
I think your continued patronage is at the absolute center of the issue. SOE/LA gambled that the Star Wars brand name was more important than the gameplay. Though you freely publish your opinion that the early game was more enjoyable to you, the fact that you continue to patronize their business lends credence to their original premise...that despite all, only the Star Wars brand name was necessary to retain your business.
I merely want to highlight a different type of outlook from a former player...a player who finds it strange how any preCU veteran can continue with this game. That's why I submitted the possibility that your continued patronage was never really a risk for SOE/LA. The powers-that-be simply thought there were more people like you: who shared your love of all things Star Wars and would be content to pay the monthly fee because it was Star Wars.
I recently got back into the MMO scene (tried LotRO), and couldn't help but compare it to the pre-CU (LotRO is severely lacking, though you all probably knew that). I have to admit that I've found it *somewhat* satisfying to see the SWG community continue to struggle amidst SOE/LA's behavior (they deserve much worse in my opinion). Reading through these forums brings back a lot of nice memories...and some painful ones.
I don't think losing my patronage is a question here. I am merely sharing my opinion of the state of the game and my opinion of some of the folks working on it currently. I understand what you miss, however, and I miss it as well. I heavily sympathize with your other opinions as well. I hope someone comes up with a way to give us both that, and make it profitable, so it'll more likely stay that way. I hope they wait long enough to hold back on releasing it until it is ready. I hope for a lot of things.
I think your continued patronage is at the absolute center of the issue. SOE/LA gambled that the Star Wars brand name was more important than the gameplay. Though you freely publish your opinion that the early game was more enjoyable to you, the fact that you continue to patronize their business lends credence to their original premise...that despite all, only the Star Wars brand name was necessary to retain your business.
I merely want to highlight a different type of outlook from a former player...a player who finds it strange how any preCU veteran can continue with this game. That's why I submitted the possibility that your continued patronage was never really a risk for SOE/LA. The powers-that-be simply thought there were more people like you: who shared your love of all things Star Wars and would be content to pay the monthly fee because it was Star Wars.
I recently got back into the MMO scene (tried LotRO), and couldn't help but compare it to the pre-CU (LotRO is severely lacking, though you all probably knew that). I have to admit that I've found it *somewhat* satisfying to see the SWG community continue to struggle amidst SOE/LA's behavior (they deserve much worse in my opinion). Reading through these forums brings back a lot of nice memories...and some painful ones.
I made this point earlier in this thread: had we ALL left, then there might never be another SW MMORPG at all. The fact that most left, but the fact that some didn't convinced them that a SW MMORPG is something worth having AND that they screwed up with the CUNGE. Now, they are making SWG better (although not as good as the game we loved, sadly), but they also seem to be working on another MMORPG, if the rumors are true, which hopefully will be built better from the ground up, and something more to our liking. Would I prefer it if the CUNGE had never happend? Of course, everyone who knows my posts here and on other forums knows this. But given that reality (please note my carefully drawn and very narrow context), I think we both worked together and have won.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by PreCUOriginally posted by Fishermage Whatever they are doing now, it's working. Fans, both those of you who left, and those of us who stayed, have worked together to get a partial return of what we all wanted.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
When someone asks for water, that usually means they are THIRSTY -- not that they want something that flows (the comparative YOU drew). Hense, the analogy was deeply flawed. That is a leap of context and kind in an analogy, which makes it less apt than the ones I substituted it with. I suspect you don't respect me for other reasons that my bickering with your bad analogies -- no I suspect it has something to do with your choice of name and your agenda, and my refusal to side with you in your agenda, even if I agree that pre-CU was the better game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
the point of the analogy has nothing to do with the reason the person is asking for water, nor did you have any good reason for telling me it's wrong based on what you assume.
when you want water, you usually don't want oil. But you can make the flawed argument that it is a valid substitute because they both flow. You were making the same type of flawed argument when you said "partial return".
I didn't think I would need to explain it further but there you go.
and you're certainly welcome for my input.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Take care.
I made this point earlier in this thread: had we ALL left, then there might never be another SW MMORPG at all. The fact that most left, but the fact that some didn't convinced them that a SW MMORPG is something worth having AND that they screwed up with the CUNGE. Now, they are making SWG better (although not as good as the game we loved, sadly), but they also seem to be working on another MMORPG, if the rumors are true, which hopefully will be built better from the ground up, and something more to our liking. Would I prefer it if the CUNGE had never happend? Of course, everyone who knows my posts here and on other forums knows this. But given that reality (please note my carefully drawn and very narrow context), I think we both worked together and have won.
Whether or not another Star Wars MMO gets made is unimportant to me, so I see no value in your personal sacrifice for the future of the Star Wars IP. I want the amazing economic and skill systems from SWG preCU, not the wookies.
I suppose that's why you find the current game (and its future) acceptable, where I find it deplorable.
I think fish has a lot of gonads to write that post. A LOT of people forget their is a person behind the toon or forum name. I was a weaponsmith and considered one of the best on my server pre CU. CU made a lot of my resources worthless, NGE outright destroyed my chosen profession. I was talked into trying NGE and their changes and found the game fun, yes it is not Pre-CU but I think they are making some good changes now. Saying that; I do not trust SOE, I think what they did at the start of NGE was plain wrong and really hurt the company's reputation and that is something they will have a very hard time rebuilding.
Comments
Being a CEO is not as easy as it sounds. I don't envy the guy's position at all; I never have. It's worse for him that he's a CEO of an entire gaming development/deployment branch as the work for smaller companies is pretty overwhelming on it's own.
The problem with being a CEO is that everyone takes his word as the word of God (metaphorically speaking, they're not far off). CEOs are primarily salesmen, so if they sell something wrong they still need to stand by the product. It looks worse for a salesman to sell a defective product and then turn around and say it is defective, rather than stand by the product to the bitter end.
I know, it sounds ass backwards -- and it is -- but that's how the capitalist world works. It's why good ole Smed still has a job.
The truth here can be seen in the backlash the CU and NGE received, and throughout the debacles he made a lot of crass assumptions that were ultimately turned against him. His word is used as "law" to prove things went bad and how bad they went (neglect of players, etc) and rarely in the good sense. Very few folks, if any, agree openly that the NGE was the best option for the game.
That said, an apology would really do nothing but "vindicate" everyone who's been against him. He's made attempts at apologies in the past, admitting that the NGE was more or less a mistake, but he can't really come out and say that he felt players were mistreated since that sets precedence for a lot more backlash. The most he can do is try to appease the vets in more subtle ways -- through these incremental reversions we've been seeing in the latest chapter(s) of SWG, listening to players, giving the development team(s) more room to operate with their specifications, etc.
The only true and acceptable apology -- the one that will practically forgive all sins -- is a classic server or two. I don't see it happening, but it really is all that simple. Hey, it worked for Mythic... and look where they are now.
A great many good CEOs have apologized to the public as part of a program to renew their company or a project their company screwed up and was trying to get back on track. There was an age of 'never apologize," but that's given way in this transparent society in which we now live. CEOs used to be able to hide behind corporate walls, but no longer. Information flies way to fast and cuts way to deep for that. Admitting the NGE was a mistake is a coward's apology, not an apology -- it is being to proud to actually apologize, and makes him look weak. That is why I advocate a real apology, an addition to continuing to bring things back to the game that vets like. There are ways to apologize that don't set you up for backlash -- you just have to be smart about it. I agree I would prefer a classic server, but what it a classic server was always doomed to operate at a loss? What if the game we loved was never profitable? I'm not saying that was the case, but it certainly seems feasable. When they talk about it being "impossible" that's what that always meant to me. In that case an apology would be all that's left. I've said many times that it's not necessary (at least for me), but it would be a GOOD move, a smart move, as Jack Welch and other smart CEO's who know they messed up can attest to.
What good would an apology do? What would he be apologizing for? The parts that are known to the public or the parts they keep hidden. How are we supposed to make a decision to return to an SOE game without knowing all the information? How do we know that they wont do something again when they still hide behind NDA's? What reason would i have to think that what they're NOT telling us would only cause subs to drop more? What reason would I have to think anything else. Why would I go back to any SOE game when thats all the information I have to make a decision? Rumor, speculation, mis- information is not how trust is rebuilt. At least not for me. When they're ready to have an open honest discussion..so that I can make an INFORMED decision..I'll consider not dismissing all that they say as marketing BS or lies. Because, in my personal experience with SOE..Lies and promises broken are all that they deal in. I wont consider going back, til I know what Im going back to. Can you understand what Im saying here?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Being a CEO is not as easy as it sounds. I don't envy the guy's position at all; I never have. It's worse for him that he's a CEO of an entire gaming development/deployment branch as the work for smaller companies is pretty overwhelming on it's own.
The problem with being a CEO is that everyone takes his word as the word of God (metaphorically speaking, they're not far off). CEOs are primarily salesmen, so if they sell something wrong they still need to stand by the product. It looks worse for a salesman to sell a defective product and then turn around and say it is defective, rather than stand by the product to the bitter end.
I know, it sounds ass backwards -- and it is -- but that's how the capitalist world works. It's why good ole Smed still has a job.
The truth here can be seen in the backlash the CU and NGE received, and throughout the debacles he made a lot of crass assumptions that were ultimately turned against him. His word is used as "law" to prove things went bad and how bad they went (neglect of players, etc) and rarely in the good sense. Very few folks, if any, agree openly that the NGE was the best option for the game.
That said, an apology would really do nothing but "vindicate" everyone who's been against him. He's made attempts at apologies in the past, admitting that the NGE was more or less a mistake, but he can't really come out and say that he felt players were mistreated since that sets precedence for a lot more backlash. The most he can do is try to appease the vets in more subtle ways -- through these incremental reversions we've been seeing in the latest chapter(s) of SWG, listening to players, giving the development team(s) more room to operate with their specifications, etc.
The only true and acceptable apology -- the one that will practically forgive all sins -- is a classic server or two. I don't see it happening, but it really is all that simple. Hey, it worked for Mythic... and look where they are now.
A great many good CEOs have apologized to the public as part of a program to renew their company or a project their company screwed up and was trying to get back on track. There was an age of 'never apologize," but that's given way in this transparent society in which we now live. CEOs used to be able to hide behind corporate walls, but no longer. Information flies way to fast and cuts way to deep for that. Admitting the NGE was a mistake is a coward's apology, not an apology -- it is being to proud to actually apologize, and makes him look weak. That is why I advocate a real apology, an addition to continuing to bring things back to the game that vets like. There are ways to apologize that don't set you up for backlash -- you just have to be smart about it. I agree I would prefer a classic server, but what it a classic server was always doomed to operate at a loss? What if the game we loved was never profitable? I'm not saying that was the case, but it certainly seems feasable. When they talk about it being "impossible" that's what that always meant to me. In that case an apology would be all that's left. I've said many times that it's not necessary (at least for me), but it would be a GOOD move, a smart move, as Jack Welch and other smart CEO's who know they messed up can attest to.
What good would an apology do? What would he be apologizing for? The parts that are known to the public or the parts they keep hidden. How are we supposed to make a decision to return to an SOE game without knowing all the information? How do we know that they wont do something again when they still hide behind NDA's? What reason would i have to think that what they're NOT telling us would only cause subs to drop more? What reason would I have to think anything else. Why would I go back to any SOE game when thats all the information I have to make a decision? Rumor, speculation, mis- information is not how trust is rebuilt. At least not for me. When they're ready to have an open honest discussion..so that I can make an INFORMED decision..I'll consider not dismissing all that they say as marketing BS or lies. Because, in my personal experience with SOE..Lies and promises broken are all that they deal in. I wont consider going back, til I know what Im going back to. Can you understand what Im saying here?
Of course I understand what your saying. Therefore, an apology won't do any good with you. That has no bearing on the effect it'll have on others. It's also the right thing to do. That's most important.
fishermage.blogspot.com
They can say what ever they want, meet with who ever they want, but until I see it in game it means sweet F all.
We have been there before.
All I have to say is.... "ya whatever what's Bioware up to these days?"
Ok. But I dont see an apology for something, letting some accept that apology, while hiding information that would make that apology meaningless the right thing to do. Or making it seem like your doing the right thing. Neither are noble imo..and it would only continue the same type BS and lies that got SOE into the situation they're in. What would happen if he apologized..then more information came out? That apology would be used to smear anything and everything having to do with SOE and SWG and more people would end up feeling like the biggest sucker that ever lived. All I can see..only using my experience with SWG and SOE..is a few people getting set up for future frustration by an apology from Smed. An apology means more than "im sorry"..it means I wont ever do it again...and the history of SOE tells me nothing but they will do whatever they want whenver they want. I mean an apology would be nice to hear...but not if there is a chance that even one more person gets hurt by a game because they believed Smed's apology was authentic. It will never happen anyway...I cant see their lawyers allowing it.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
They have already said they will never do it again. Smedley has said that as well. I'm going to hold him to it, to the best of my ability. None of this can ever hurt me in any way, it never has, I'm just not built that way that others can hurt me in that way.
It doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have done what they did, and he, in the name of his company should aplogize, in addition to the obvious of never doing it again.
SOE doesn't have much of a history -- this whole industry is way too new for anyone to have much of a history, but I get your point. I don't trust them either, as I've said elsewhere in this and other threads. What I am doing is explaining how trust, once lost, is rebuilt. So far they have done part of that, but not enough.
fishermage.blogspot.com
my personal uneducated opinion..
Your being taken for a ride Fish..your a good person from what I can tell..and they're using that to serve themselves..just like they did with unagi..and others. I hope you have more than trust or willingness to start to trust to go on here...they left ol unagi out to dry when the shit hit. You are a respected member of the community..the easiest way to shut you up would be to make whatever you say worthless. Unagi used to be respected too and was a thorn in the side of the devs to about the same extent you are now...just saying be careful. Your a grown man and im sure you can take whatever is given to you and more..but be careful here none-the-less.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I don't trust them in the least. I like some of the recent changes. ChrisCao did say they would never do what they did again. Of course they still might do it again. Again, do I trust them? No. Do I like what has been done the last two publishes: mostly.
I'm still complaining about what I don't like, nothing has changed -- I just happen to actually LIKE a few of the people I am compaining to now (not Smedley, btw. I neither like him nor trust him, and his eyes are too close together anyway lol).
I always tried to be constructive, even if it is a deconstructive way. That hasn't changed either. I've always wanted the game to be good again. I still do, and the last two chapters have contained some of the things I think make it better. Not better than pre-CU or even the CU, but better. Worth playing, for me, which is more than I was able to say for many months prior.
My Smuggler BeastMaster is having a blast with pets, my wife is playing again too...my entertainer is having fun again buffing customers -- I'm even seeing adults playing again lol. It's better, and I am sharing that with folks. I've shared my opinion all along, my only agenda being I want the game to be good.
Thanks for at least believing I am a good person. The hatred I have been getting for all this is both sad and laughable. From accusations of being bought off to being brainwashed...yeesh the power some folks attribute to SOE.
I will be careful, for what it's worth. I don't trust them. Can I make it any clearer? I don't trust them. They are untrustworthy. They have yet to truly prove themselves, and still, as long as Smedley is at the helm, I probably will never trust them.
I don't trust them -- got that?
I'm being playful but I mean it. Thanks again.
fishermage.blogspot.com
LOL. i get ya fish. Glad you can enjoy the game again as well. Good luck to you sir. Hope it works out for you guys remaining and the new people coming in. I really miss the game and the community, but its just not worth the risk of seeing it destroyed again. I really did love this game once. At least I got to play the best MMO ever made with the best community ever for a short time.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
We used to talk now and then... (you and I that is). Maybe not here but on another forum.. that I don't want to get into.
Personally I don't have any bad feelings about what you say... I mean in all honesty they need to invite a LOT of people that have been critical. This is what they should have been doing with all those focus studies.
I was invited to 3 different focus groups.. but then since I'm 38.. I was to old.. So I actually see that as a step. Your liking the game isn't going to affect my liking the game (subjective material). So even if SOE did "buy you out" what's the point....
The sad part to me was when they put beastmaster in.. they could have brought back a lot of people (which they did) and retained them (which they didn't). Tho they keep now trying to claim how ful the servers ALL are (not some.. all...) I can still log in and see that this is false... some are (which some had decent pops anyway) and some you'd be lucky to have a group ever.. unless you bring your own.
So the sad part was.. they brought in beast master.. then went over the top with the NPC rebalance.. Having a large crowd standing in Mos Eisley talking all day.. doesn't really inspire people to stay subscribed who actually want to play.. (among other things).
Its also never been a matter of trust for me...
Somehow I keep thinking from a business side... and when you do that its more like..
why in the hell would anyone do this... or not do this... the point is to make money.. which means aquire and retain customers.
Everytime they move forward they make some other stupid change so that at best they retain the current number... they never really move forward... oh they let some idiot post on the forum who should never have posting rights (from soe I mean not the fans tho it can be true there too).. and lose more.
Having someone spout off how they are gonna ban "a bunch of people" ... cool do that... lose more customers... just to flex some forum muscle.
I mean... honestly... they need your money.. so within reason (your actions)... acting the way they do.. is costing them money. I.. in fact none of us need soe... its a totally optional thing.
So I guess in the end.. I find it odd how a business that is "for profit"... has so little clue how to make one.
That's been the basic problem I have with dealing with soe.. or in fact most mmo companies.
SOE just happened to ruin one of two mmo's that I ever really enjoyed.. and EA ruined the other one... I'm not exactly an SOE hater.. I just really don't understand how they can have so many people that just shouldn't ever have a public postion.. that have one..
/end ramble..
Oh wait.. But back to Fish... no I'd never have any bad thing to say about your experience or "change of heart"... who the heck would I be if I thought I did... I mean really. If you're having fun.. that's your point of view.. which is hard to argue with.
*edit* sorry for all the grammatical errors and probably somewhat insane threading of words. Its fairly late and I don't have the ability to fix most of this.. so I just wanted to say sorry....lol
Thanks a lot for your excellent input here. I quite agree with you about the combat dificulty increase -- they went overboard, and instead of listening to the heartfelt complaints by their returning customers, they are listening unfortunately to the flaming hyenas on the forums who flame anyone who expresses dissatisfaction of the difficulty increase.
When players voiced their issues, they were flamed with the usual CMN, Learn to Play, go play WoW, nonsense. The major difference here was THIS time the Horde was not ONLY composed of the same old fanboys -- this time, the Horde was now made up of many from the old anti-NGE faction.
Many of those that were against the NGE Easy mode (I am one of those but feel they went too far) thought this move was good, and flamed anyone who thought otherwise.
It's a bummer.
One thing I can ask is that if you are not too busy, and still have an account handy, pop on the forums and make a post (sorry if you get flamed), expressing exactly this sentiment -- that you wanted to try BeastMaster but the difficulty turned you off, and/or send DeadMeast and Blixtev a PM. It can't hurt. Any and all feedback is helpful. They ARE listening, if only to the loudest voices. It's a problem.
Either way thanks for your input, you are quite right in your assessment.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Sir, was SOE/LA ever truly in danger of losing your patronage?
You seem to be in the .1% hardcore Star Wars fanatic category (being a collector and all). I suspect the only thing that would drive you away as a customer would be to remove the Star Wars flavor entirely. You may have enjoyed one particular version of SWG more than others, but you've ultimately found the game enjoyable regardless.
I fall into the opposite end of the spectrum. It was the deep, skill-based eco/social/combat system (and the community it embraced and created) that I fell in love with. Even if SOE had removed everything Star Wars from the pre-CU, it wouldn't have bothered me that much. The actual game-play was much more important to me.
The manner in which the transition was handled is where the true angst emerges (for me). Its abrupt, ambush-like nature showed a complete and utter disrespect for their customers. The demeaning and poorly conceived statements attributed to certain individuals from Sony and LucasArts was just salt poured into an already gaping wound.
It'll be a cold day in hell before either of these companies sees one red cent from my pocket again.
I hope someone comes up with a way to give us both that, and make it profitable, so it'll more likely stay that way. I hope they wait long enough to hold back on releasing it until it is ready. I hope for a lot of things.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I totally concur.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
When someone asks for water, that usually means they are THIRSTY -- not that they want something that flows (the comparative YOU drew). Hense, the analogy was deeply flawed. That is a leap of context and kind in an analogy, which makes it less apt than the ones I substituted it with. I suspect you don't respect me for other reasons that my bickering with your bad analogies -- no I suspect it has something to do with your choice of name and your agenda, and my refusal to side with you in your agenda, even if I agree that pre-CU was the better game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
When someone asks for water, that usually means they are THIRSTY -- not that they want something that flows (the comparative YOU drew). Hense, the analogy was deeply flawed. That is a leap of context and kind in an analogy, which makes it less apt than the ones I substituted it with. I suspect you don't respect me for other reasons that my bickering with your bad analogies -- no I suspect it has something to do with your choice of name and your agenda, and my refusal to side with you in your agenda, even if I agree that pre-CU was the better game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
the point of the analogy has nothing to do with the reason the person is asking for water, nor did you have any good reason for telling me it's wrong based on what you assume.
when you want water, you usually don't want oil. But you can make the flawed argument that it is a valid substitute because they both flow. You were making the same type of flawed argument when you said "partial return".
I didn't think I would need to explain it further but there you go.
and you're certainly welcome for my input.
I think your continued patronage is at the absolute center of the issue. SOE/LA gambled that the Star Wars brand name was more important than the gameplay. Though you freely publish your opinion that the early game was more enjoyable to you, the fact that you continue to patronize their business lends credence to their original premise...that despite all, only the Star Wars brand name was necessary to retain your business.
I merely want to highlight a different type of outlook from a former player...a player who finds it strange how any preCU veteran can continue with this game. That's why I submitted the possibility that your continued patronage was never really a risk for SOE/LA. The powers-that-be simply thought there were more people like you: who shared your love of all things Star Wars and would be content to pay the monthly fee because it was Star Wars.
I recently got back into the MMO scene (tried LotRO), and couldn't help but compare it to the pre-CU (LotRO is severely lacking, though you all probably knew that). I have to admit that I've found it *somewhat* satisfying to see the SWG community continue to struggle amidst SOE/LA's behavior (they deserve much worse in my opinion). Reading through these forums brings back a lot of nice memories...and some painful ones.
I think your continued patronage is at the absolute center of the issue. SOE/LA gambled that the Star Wars brand name was more important than the gameplay. Though you freely publish your opinion that the early game was more enjoyable to you, the fact that you continue to patronize their business lends credence to their original premise...that despite all, only the Star Wars brand name was necessary to retain your business.
I merely want to highlight a different type of outlook from a former player...a player who finds it strange how any preCU veteran can continue with this game. That's why I submitted the possibility that your continued patronage was never really a risk for SOE/LA. The powers-that-be simply thought there were more people like you: who shared your love of all things Star Wars and would be content to pay the monthly fee because it was Star Wars.
I recently got back into the MMO scene (tried LotRO), and couldn't help but compare it to the pre-CU (LotRO is severely lacking, though you all probably knew that). I have to admit that I've found it *somewhat* satisfying to see the SWG community continue to struggle amidst SOE/LA's behavior (they deserve much worse in my opinion). Reading through these forums brings back a lot of nice memories...and some painful ones.
I made this point earlier in this thread: had we ALL left, then there might never be another SW MMORPG at all. The fact that most left, but the fact that some didn't convinced them that a SW MMORPG is something worth having AND that they screwed up with the CUNGE. Now, they are making SWG better (although not as good as the game we loved, sadly), but they also seem to be working on another MMORPG, if the rumors are true, which hopefully will be built better from the ground up, and something more to our liking. Would I prefer it if the CUNGE had never happend? Of course, everyone who knows my posts here and on other forums knows this. But given that reality (please note my carefully drawn and very narrow context), I think we both worked together and have won.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I agree the game is probably better now than when the NGE first launched and it might even be fun to a certain extent but I wouldn't say there is a partial return of what we all wanted. Overall, preCU and the NGE are completely different games. And many of the recent additions are a different species with similar nomenclature. It's like asking for water and getting oil and saying they're similar because they both flow.
I would say it's more like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting strawberry, since both are MMORPGs set in the Star Wars universe and appeal to different tastes (I say strawberry because some folks really hate strawberry ice cream, but way more people prefer chocolate to strawberry, even among those like me who tolerate strawberry). The analogy of someone wanting water, and given oil doesn't really work. If you drink oil, you will die -- not merely enjoy it less than the water you wanted. To stick with water, it would be like asking for water and getting some juice you don't like.
I would have respected you more if you didn't make semantic arguments to try and detract from the fact that you agree with me.
drink oil?
I'm not trying to detract from the fact that I agree with you, I am merely disagreeing with your choice of analogy AS well as agreeing with the point you were trying to make. Humans CAN do these things, at least I can, as I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I suspect I never had your respect, in that if I ever had it, you would never have made THIS particular post.
My my, how many people ascribe sinister or ulterior motives to people who merely disagree with points. And no, I don't drink oil, nor do I know anyone who does.
I don't respect you because you are playing on the fact that analogies are just that because they aren't exactly the same as what you're comparing. So you can always find something that's not right about it. I wasn't implying that we would be drinking anything. I was simply making the point that we didn't get the same thing but you're trying to say they're partially similar for reasons that aren't in context with the whole.
When someone asks for water, that usually means they are THIRSTY -- not that they want something that flows (the comparative YOU drew). Hense, the analogy was deeply flawed. That is a leap of context and kind in an analogy, which makes it less apt than the ones I substituted it with. I suspect you don't respect me for other reasons that my bickering with your bad analogies -- no I suspect it has something to do with your choice of name and your agenda, and my refusal to side with you in your agenda, even if I agree that pre-CU was the better game. Anyway, thanks for your input.
the point of the analogy has nothing to do with the reason the person is asking for water, nor did you have any good reason for telling me it's wrong based on what you assume.
when you want water, you usually don't want oil. But you can make the flawed argument that it is a valid substitute because they both flow. You were making the same type of flawed argument when you said "partial return".
I didn't think I would need to explain it further but there you go.
and you're certainly welcome for my input.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. Take care.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Whether or not another Star Wars MMO gets made is unimportant to me, so I see no value in your personal sacrifice for the future of the Star Wars IP. I want the amazing economic and skill systems from SWG preCU, not the wookies.
I suppose that's why you find the current game (and its future) acceptable, where I find it deplorable.
I think fish has a lot of gonads to write that post. A LOT of people forget their is a person behind the toon or forum name. I was a weaponsmith and considered one of the best on my server pre CU. CU made a lot of my resources worthless, NGE outright destroyed my chosen profession. I was talked into trying NGE and their changes and found the game fun, yes it is not Pre-CU but I think they are making some good changes now. Saying that; I do not trust SOE, I think what they did at the start of NGE was plain wrong and really hurt the company's reputation and that is something they will have a very hard time rebuilding.
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