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Female Heralds in Book 10, defiles Lore even more.
observer
Member RarePosts: 3,685
Lore gets trashed on again. 
http://www.lotro.com/article/395
Herald Armaments
Book 10 also introduces some new types of Armaments. These function just as the old ones did - er, more like, just as the recently-fixed old ones do 
- Female Armaments
- Shield-maiden
- Swordswoman
- Maid-at-arms
- Other Armaments
- Rumor has it that there may be other Armaments to be found...
Comments
I'm not real up on the Tolkien lore..what are they defying?
They should take it one step further and add Female NE from WoW following you around. They dance on command. Maybe that's the WoW-killer!
(I kid people, don't get your panties in a bunch)
and this defies lore how exactly?
I miss DAoC
First, the trick here is you have to balance lore with playability. Granted leaving female characters out completely would not make the game unplayable but you have to understand Turbine is a BUSINESS first and formost and they would lose subscriptions from quite a few people if they didn't allow female PCs. Though they do disinclude female dwarves.
Second, It is nowhere explicitly stated that females never took part in any warfare. In fact, Eowyn called herself a shieldmaiden of Rohan and she was quite obviously trained for battle. The main reason she was left behind was to rule in Theoden's and Eomer's absence as she was the only other member of the ruling family. It was a foregone conclusion that she would face battle if Gondor had fallen. She merely did not wish to wait, and part of her motivation to disobey Theoden's order to stay certainly seem to be her feelings for Aragorn.
This is not exlusive to Rohan either, and I quote, "Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down it's walls and laid bare it's pits, and the forest was cleansed" Return of the King, Appendix B
I knew alot about Starwars lore when I played SWG it drove me nuts when I played that game. Now I play LOTRO and I am glad I never got deep into its lore because the game is alot more fun when you don't torture yourself over such things.
Some kind of 'Society' is involved in protecting the IP. Perhaps we should just let them handle all this and take the game as it is afterwards.
Following the lore only makes sense up to a certain point, especially if deviating from the lore really does not change it.
What is changed by not following the lore that women usually did not go into battle as armed warriors? Apart from upsetting some misogynysts and Lore>Everything people, it really makes no difference to the in-game lore. We're not talking about changing Aragon to Aragonne, or Frodo into Freda, or making Starbuck and Boomer women (whoops, wrong universe!)
In LotR lore women did not fight in wars, thats why the story of Aeowen was such a big deal. She was only one person, this does not justify Turbines breaking of the lore by allowing female captains of Gondor and Rohan ect.
I don't think Turbine had any intention from the go of staying true to the lore, the world was meant to be grim but Turbine have made it bright and colourful and happy looking in any of the free peoples areas. Turbine made a game aimed at children in my opinion.
Peter Jackson caught the feel of LoTR perfectly with his movies, the atmosphere was there, the look, the feel everything was right apart from a few lore discrepancies. Those discrepnacies however did not include masses of female fighters and everything looking bright and cheerful.
Excuse me but the game is not all bright and colorful. If you want an example of that go to wow wich is bright and colorful. As another poster pointed out the game has to be playable and having woman avatars is part of that playability for those who want that.
Turbine by the license they were given has to follow the lore. As closely as they can and still make the game playable.
As far as PJ only making a few lore discrpancies i almost fell out of my chair laughing over this one. I could write and essay about the changes he made to the story in making the movies. For starters arwen never says a word in the books. Makes two appearances only. She never road out and saved frodo that was glorfindel that did that.
Saruman doesn't die from falling off of the tower of orthanc after wormtounge stabs him. He dies at the end of the scouring of the shire. Pippin doesn't look into the pilanthir at erodas he does that when they return to helm's deep on their way back to erodas. Arragorn isn't running from his heritage he fully inbraces it. The shards of narsil are reforged before the fellowship leaves rivendell not during the return of the king like in the movies.
That there is more than a few changes and i could go on and on about how he hacked and slashed the story to make it fit the media he was working in . Same with the game. People expect to be able to play either male or female. The expect to be able to do certain things in the game and the lore has to give way to these stables in basic game mechanics.
All in all i give you a nice try at making the game out to be a anti lore game. Yet you didn't make it. Sorry try again next time and do some research also so people can't punch holes in your assumptions.
It would depend on the race of human. The Eastern Cultures fully endorsed women soldiers. There are accounts of women fighting in the regions of the entire area east of the Misty mountains. Especially the areas near The Great Forest. As for the Western cultures.. Im really not as familiar with there cultures. I do know elven huntresses weren't uncommon in battle ranks but that was only in dire times. Elves didn't have alot of the Sexual boundaries the humans, dwarves and hobbits had.
In LotR lore women did not fight in wars, thats why the story of Aeowen was such a big deal. She was only one person, this does not justify Turbines breaking of the lore by allowing female captains of Gondor and Rohan ect.
I don't think Turbine had any intention from the go of staying true to the lore, the world was meant to be grim but Turbine have made it bright and colourful and happy looking in any of the free peoples areas. Turbine made a game aimed at children in my opinion.
Peter Jackson caught the feel of LoTR perfectly with his movies, the atmosphere was there, the look, the feel everything was right apart from a few lore discrepancies. Those discrepnacies however did not include masses of female fighters and everything looking bright and cheerful.
Excuse me but the game is not all bright and colorful. If you want an example of that go to wow wich is bright and colorful. As another poster pointed out the game has to be playable and having woman avatars is part of that playability for those who want that.
Turbine by the license they were given has to follow the lore. As closely as they can and still make the game playable.
As far as PJ only making a few lore discrpancies i almost fell out of my chair laughing over this one. I could write and essay about the changes he made to the story in making the movies. For starters arwen never says a word in the books. Makes two appearances only. She never road out and saved frodo that was glorfindel that did that.
Saruman doesn't die from falling off of the tower of orthanc after wormtounge stabs him. He dies at the end of the scouring of the shire. Pippin doesn't look into the pilanthir at erodas he does that when they return to helm's deep on their way back to erodas. Arragorn isn't running from his heritage he fully inbraces it. The shards of narsil are reforged before the fellowship leaves rivendell not during the return of the king like in the movies.
That there is more than a few changes and i could go on and on about how he hacked and slashed the story to make it fit the media he was working in . Same with the game. People expect to be able to play either male or female. The expect to be able to do certain things in the game and the lore has to give way to these stables in basic game mechanics.
All in all i give you a nice try at making the game out to be a anti lore game. Yet you didn't make it. Sorry try again next time and do some research also so people can't punch holes in your assumptions.
I already know that Glorfindel rescued frodo and that Saruman never died until the end at the Shire. Ihave read the book i know these things so don't list them to me. In my opinion those few discrepancies are no where near as bad as those found in LoTRO.
If you go to Bree is it not bright and colourful?... The entire area arounf Bree land is bright and colourful barr the Barrow-Downs. You say go play WoW if you want colourful well atleast WoW is meant to be colourful.
I won't go and do research, i have read the book. This is MY opinion not yours, you don't like oh well woopdiedoo.
So depicting aragorn as a man who is running from his hearitage and denying who he is, is not a bigger lore violation than what you can find in the game? Changeing around events and having other characters play out parts in the books, IE eomer was never banished from the kingdom of rohan, he was at the battle of helm's deep and it was another person who gandalf went and got to come save the day.
Having elves coming to the aid of those in helm's deep isn't a lore violation?
You are right your opinion is your opinion. I didn't say i didn't like it i was just pointing out that their are holes in your theory about the movies being more lore accruate than the game. The area around bree is no were as colorful as wow. Yes i played wow for about 30 minutes all i could stomach of that game.
I had to roll a female Captain, because I just didn't feel right about the male Heralds following me around.
I think having a female herald is a great idea. I think you can take the whole Lore Police policy too far.
jackdog checks his giveadamn meter, amazingly the darn thing did not even twitch. I can picture some of the old nerdites from the old MEO boards crappimg themselves over this but I don't think anyone with a real life will give a shit.
I miss DAoC
I am a huge Tolkien fan, and the idea of female heralds doesnt bother me one bit. Its just ludicrous to suggest that it 'defiles the Lore'. LOL. If Eowyn can ride with the Rohirrim and fight the Witch king, then why cant a female be a herald? jeesh, lighten up.
Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC
So don't play then.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
*enters thread*
Whoa! Nerd fight!
Don't make me burn down your trailer. I'll do it man.
*edit* Just so people know I am joking
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
So having women fight is a far worse and unforgivable "crime" to you than Jackson outright altering the story, events, and characters? Mmm, sexist much?
This is why using popular IPs for games is a Bad Thing (tm) -- the Lore Nerds come out in droves.
I personally think that you are nuts. IMO, the game brings the lore or Middle Earth to life in a way that is much truer to the "feel" of the books than the movies did. For example, I thought is was really cool that you could uses the map of the Shire from the books to navigate the shire in game. Of course, you might be one of those purists that thinks the shire should not have been scaled down and should have included every single town on the map. But if you are one of those purists, I find it odd that you're comfortable with all the crap that Peter Jackson changed, often for no good reason that I can tell.
On the females fighting issue, female hobbits, elves, and humans can and did fight in the books. In the books no females were sent to war, but we are not playing soldiers in the game. We are playing adventurers that acted in the background, behind the scenes, to help foil Suraon's plans, much like the rangers. Few of the deeds deeds of the Rangers during the war of the ring are ever described in the main books. However, If you dig through all of Tolkien's writings, you can find details of a few. For example (from Unfinsihed Tales) when Frodo was fleeing the Shire a group of Rangers was actively gaurding it (like in the game, go figure) They actually made a stand at a barracade to keep the Nazgul out of the Shire. They were able to delay one, but were ultimately defeated and forced to flee (one of them died heroically if I remember right).
There obvously was a lot more going on than is ever detailed in the three books (really one book split up for publication), and I personally see the possibility of a female adventurer much less of a stretch than randomly adding elves to a battle, showing the shire completely intact at the end of the movie, or mashing together two entirely different battles. At least there might have been female adventurers. The idea doesn't directly contradict anything in the books. However a lot of events in the movies do.
The idea of "adventurers" is consistent with the overall Tolkien lore. For example, the some of the most important characters in the Simmerillian are humans (not Dunedain, normal humans) that go on "adventures," often alone. One of the major events of the first age is a male human and a female elf together wresting one of the Simarls from Morgoth himself (makes the things that Aragorn pulled off seem tame in comparison). It's implied that Farmer Maggot was some sort of adventurer, but we don't have any idea what he did from the books.
But I suspect I'm wasting my time, because I'm not getting the impression that you are the rabid anal rententive Tolkien fan that your are claiming to be. I'm more getting the impression that your OP is a meager troll attempt.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I understand and respect what many of you have been saying about LoTRO staying true to Tolkien's world. One of LoTRO's great strengths is that it does (for me) sucessfully convey the essense of "Lord of the Rings" even though it might not necessarily be a carbon copy of it.
"Lord of the Rings" the book and movie were necessarily about someone else's adventures through Middle Earth while LoTRO has to translate that experience into the 1st person. I try not to get upset when MMOs based on established lore deviate from the original work as long as the change is made so that the 1st person experience is made more enjoyable or playable.
I'm OK with book-lore-based MMOs being parallel to the lore on which they are based rather than always in-line with it.
I think the challenges of creating a playable, fun game sometimes demand it.
"Forsooth, thou hast trod in 'pon our brawling and mocked our ways! Have at thee!"
*Rolls a twenty sided die against Die_Scream.*
*Rolls a two.*
"In the rounds that will come after, knave, mayhap things will not go so well for thee! For now Lady Fortune hast bestowed her smiles on thy visage but she is faithless and wayward, soon to turn her affections elsewhither, then shalt though feel the bite of my eight sided! For surely as the dawn, damage will be rolled 'gainst thee!"
This Lore Cookie doesn't bother me much either. If you have female captains, this train has already left the station.
What bothers me is that high end conjunctions (fellowship maneuvers if you want to use the weaksauce name) got nerfed.