Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
2d MMORPGs and 3d MMORPGs
LordVanidor
Member UncommonPosts: 70
It is my opinion that for making a 3d title, a well organized developement team is needed, and the game's feasable features need to be worked out before hand. The developement team should then push this product out as fast as they can, taking time to fine tune it and iron out the bugs that might make it unplayable for people. By the time the developers do this they should have a game thats 3d engine is still cutting edge. However when you take a 3d engine and work out more than 1/2 of the game on the fly, you are going to get something that looks like Roma Victor. Most of the games I see released fit into this category, very outdated. There is a solution for this however. To make a good looking game AND have high quality content and gameplay to add whatever features you want to it in developement, you should be making it in 2d with some 3d effects implemented. This way even 5 to 6 years after you've started developement and have a limited amount of people working on it, you will still have a high quality product that isnt out dated. In fact, you will probably have a good game. 2 dimensional MMORPG's are a completely different breed of game compared to fully 3d game environments. One, you dont have to worry about having to switch game engines in the middle of developement because the last one turned obsolete. The other is that these two genres have different followings of gamers that play them, with the occasional hardcore gamer that plays anything that comes his way.
I played text and 2d MMORPGs probably 1/4th of my gaming life, then played nothing but 3d MMORPG's since the release of EverQuest. Now, maybe I'm not everyone, but I am starting to get tired of 3d MMORPGs. I've been thinking about it for awhile, and the more I think about it, the more I want to play a GOOD 2d MMORPG. Not Ragnarok Online where the servers are all in asia or europe. Not Ultima Online, the engine is way too outdated. Everything else looks about the same quality as Ultima Online, but with slightly higher graphics settings and uses what appears to be the same game engine. What I want graphically and control wise out of a 2d MMORPG is higher resolution textures, spectacular 3d special effects used in spells/combat/anytime something neat happens. I want high resolution display modes, new lighting effects, extremely smooth animations, a graphically impressive GUI, lots of blood, and lag prediction functions to prevent people from jumping all over the place. I also want everything to load off screen so that I dont have to wait until its on my screen to load. I dont like seeing tiles at the border loading for me, or people suddenly appearing right next to me and then popping over to the other end of the screen. I dont like cartoon graphics if they are pixelated or ugly american comic book or doodle styles. Cell shaded looks, anime is fine, I prefer realistic and none of that asian crap (we've already got enough asian themed MMORPGs, give me something I can relate to). The game world should be just the right size. Not too small to ruin the gameplay experience by being overcrowded, but definitely small enough that it is memorable, and I could walk anywhere I wanted to without having to use a map or think where I am going.
Some advice for any developers who want to make an MMORPG, you could revolutionize the industry with a programmer to make a new game engine, and the time and patience to create a world within it.
Comments
I totally agree.
One thing I liked about Diablo II was that instead of targeting one mob and auto attacking, you just attacked whatever you clicked. That way you could fight 2-3 mobs at once and just rotate who you hit, if you wanted to. Also, if you had let's say a move where you hit them with your sword and their attack rate was cut in half, you could easily just tap, tap tap and all 3 mobs attack slower. In EQ, DAoC etc. you would have to fumble around targetting one, hitting the combat style, switching targets, hitting it again, hoping it doesn't fail, etc... when all the while it would be more efficient to just fight straight out.
The 2d overhead view is nice though. In 3D games I have never had any sense of direction, with the exception of Lineage 2 and Ragnarok because of how similar they are to 2D MMORPGs in a way.
If they redid UO and used high-resolution sprites like those new cel-shaded games coming out for console, an advanced lighting system, better spell effects and smooth animations, it would be great. Some details like plants and foliage, cracks on walls etc. would be cool too. And reflective water. And all of it could be 2D, just with 3D acceleration.
And yeah, what happened to blood in MMORPGs? AC2 did a good job with making models look injured and bloody when they are near death, I think other games should follow that.
Vendor buy us all a decent MMORPG bank guards recdu recsu
Vendor buy us all a decent MMORPG bank guards recdu recsu
I don't think any developer will ever do this. I know people (a lot of my friends, sadly...) that refuse to play any MMORPG that is not 3d (not to mention, it has to be real good 3d, Ragnarok and others don't cut it for them). One of my friends didn't think DAoC had good enough graphics for him to play it... sad isn't it?
I agree completely; take Disgaea and La Pucelle for example, 2d and still pleasing to the eye.
I don't know much about programming (actually i don't know anything), but would dev's be able to program more content into 2d rather than 3d? Seems that if 2d is considered "simpler" than 3d, it would leave more time and resources to be put into lots and lots of customization, skills, crafts, items, live events, more involving/dramatic quests, etc etc?
yea , id take 2d gameplay over 3d lock on target graphics
yup a mmorpg that looked like warcraft 3 or something, the 1st time played warcraft 3 i kept thinking i wish this was like an mmorpg.
Some of the classic MUD's had more "depth" than a lot of 3d mmorpg's today.
People still read books for fun despite the existance of tv's, movies, computers and such... using your imagination ya know ^^
old school gaming
2d games have better game play. Screw looks. Wasted too much money on good looking games then the gameplay turn out to be boring.
Mir 3 all the way
Ironically, the best mmorpg experiences I have ever had were 3d.
But a 3d mmorpg with depth is CERTAINLY feasible (look at farcry etc. with FREE servers that can support up to 40ish players concomitantly).
We will just have to wait for a company to find the entrepreneurship to take mmorpgs to the next level (as in non-lock-on (3d continuity)). WoW,EQ2,COH? Actually any input regarding 3d continuity in mmorpgs (as in if you were to fire a projectile it would travel continuously.
Ones I have played (AO,AC2,EQ) did not have this property.
"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred."
MP
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
It's a pity they never made a MMORPG using the Planetside engine( or something like it)....exchange weapons for spells, add in more hand held weapons,add mobs and caves...etc..well It's a big job (changing 99% of the game
) but it would be fun to have a "natural" world, without lock ons, where skill was as important as your lvl. A great quest based story line, where every quest you do adds to the plot would make it complete.
Just an idea, but until I get something like that I guess I will be sticking to 2d's.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vengi
LvL 32 Wiz on Dragon Server
LvL 23 Wiz on server 4 EI Korean Beta
http://www.totalformat.com/Guides/LOM3/guide/ this is the unofficial guide to mir3
http://www.totalformat.com/Mir3/siege.avi (right click and save) This is an ingame movie of the siege of Sabuk Wall (a Guild owned castle).
Vengi
LvL 32 Wiz on Dragon Server
LvL 23 Wiz on server 4 EI Korean Beta
http://www.totalformat.com/Guides/LOM3/guide/ this is the unofficial guide to mir3
http://www.totalformat.com/Mir3/siege.avi (right click and save) This is an ingame movie of the siege of Sabuk Wall (a Guild owned castle).
Far Cry is not an MMORPG. It is a FPS. The servers are free because they are either player hosted or have a few hosted by the game company. Dont use those as examples for MMORPGs.
I personally would not mind a 2D mmrpg if it was done well. UO did it well for its time, and im sure these days someone could do it much better. There are advantages of playing in 2D, like being able to see 360 degrees around your character at all times.
--------------------------------------
Played: AC1, DAoC, E&B, SWG
Tested: AC1, AC2, DAoC, Eve, Planetside, Rubies, Lineage 2
Believe it or not, there is an old text game that's getting a rewrite. It's called Federation. It is NOT a hack and slasher although hosted pvp events in an arena are common (There is no ground pvp, only space pvp in ships). It's more an economic simulation that takes place in a space-faring society. You progress through different ranks by making savvy financial decisions and along the way you haul cargo, buy and sell commodities, run factories and eventually get to own and design your own planet.
You can read about the game at http://www.ibgames.net/fed2/index.html. It is set to go live on July 16. Although the database will be wiped when the game goes live, when it is live, you can play through the first four ranks FREE. All that's required is a telnet front-end program. One is provided and only takes a few minutes to download, even on dialup.
Demanding high quality 3d graphics isn't a crime, infact, if I could I would too. Now, im not so big headed that I won't play a game that doesn't have 'good graphics', hell i still play half-life and its assorted mods eveyr now and again. But at the same time, people these days with newer technology have every right to demand high quality 3d graphics. And they also have every right to be choosy with what they play, and not get called sad or immature.
Like i said before, i have nothing against games with lower standard graphics. 2d top-side view mmorpg's are the ones i grew up with and I'm definately not choosey. But I thought technology was supposed to be catching up with imagination and I personally would LOVE to see a great MMORPG with highly rich 3d graphics. And i would also love to see people stop criticizing others because they demand high quality graphics in their video games. Theres nothing wrong with that whatsoever. If nobody demanded high standards in graphics, nobody would produce games with better graphics.
I say YES to 2d and 3d MMORPG's. But i Payed for my Radeon 9800 video card and i damn well would like to play games that take advantage of it and utilize its advanced rendering properties and techniques.
So if it comes down to it. If i had the choice of playing the SAME equally good MMORPG on a highly rich 3d engine, or on a dated 2d engine..i'd go with 3d.
peace.
I dont
just make it 3d
we're halfway to 2005. technology is amazing. we just need to see some good developers which there seems to be a lack of. And 3d doesn't necessarily mean First or third person.
Just to be a bitch: reply to this with the 2d options your 9800xt supports, that you'd like to see developers add into a 2d game. do a little research and let me know.
It seems to me that a lot of the time that used to be spent on making a game fun (70's-90's) and unique is now spent on making it look good. Graphics seem to some developers to be more important then the game it self, they wax and wane about how many pixels and polygons that each character has got...I used to be pretty interested in all that information but after years of hearing the same words with bigger numbers I am no longer impressed.
In the end we should expect better graphics but it seems to be at the cost of gameplay and enjoyment. Technology simply doesn't make a game better, talent and imagination does that.
If I could play a better game with worse graphics I would. Very few MMOG's were better (as in fun) then Planetarion and that was pure text.
The way you play a 2D game is very different from the way you play a 3D game, Civ2 in 3D just would not be as good, and thats why it was never made.
Developers seem to think "it's got to be better it's in 3D!!!!!", Indeed a lot of great 2D games were converted horribly during the late 90's - "name that title" 3D.
Some games are just better and easier to see in 2D....3D games will always lack the complete views and camera free problems (at least until VR is perfected) of 2D games.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vengi
LvL 32 Wiz on Dragon Server
LvL 23 Wiz on server 4 EI Korean Beta
http://www.totalformat.com/Guides/LOM3/guide/ this is the unofficial guide to mir3
http://www.totalformat.com/Mir3/siege.avi (right click and save) This is an ingame movie of the siege of Sabuk Wall (a Guild owned castle).
Vengi
LvL 32 Wiz on Dragon Server
LvL 23 Wiz on server 4 EI Korean Beta
http://www.totalformat.com/Guides/LOM3/guide/ this is the unofficial guide to mir3
http://www.totalformat.com/Mir3/siege.avi (right click and save) This is an ingame movie of the siege of Sabuk Wall (a Guild owned castle).
Graphics does not bother me in the slightest.
If the exact same game was produced in 2D or 3D then i, and i beleive everyone else in the world would opt for the 3D game. But i would much rather a games company produced a quality 2D game than a 3D feast of eyecandy and not much else.
Graphics does not preclude a game from having good gameplay, it simply adds extra expense to the production. I do not mind people saying they want good graphics in a game. But what i dont get is people who will refuse to play a game that isnt state of the art beautiful. 2D does not mean ugly if it is dont right. And even if it is ugly as long as it play well then i quite frankly dont care.
Some people are setting standards too high for themselves and will lose out on a potentially good game because of it.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Look. Game development teams usually have different people doing different things. They have the programmers which basically make "the game" and we have artists who create the visuals.
So saying that they spend too much time making it look good and that makes the game end up lacking in playability is kind of nonsense.
I've said already: there's a lack of good developers out there. We just need to find new people to create our games.
This is why I get mad at the hacker who took town Redmoon-Online. I played that game for damn close to 3 years (probably 2 years and 10 months or so) and that game was the best. 2-D kind of futuristic where you can... oh forget it. www.redmoon-online.com see for yourself.
If you need info on how to play PM me...
I'll play whichever has more compelling gameplay. I prefer a good 3D world, but I'll take 2D if the game is good.
True everyone in a games company has their role, but they seem to spend a large part of their budget (ok that's a pure guess as I don't have any facts and figures) on graphic design.
2 things I think are important in a game are
1) a natural feeling game control a good example is Tony Hawks skating as it felt real. is there any reason why we can't have that kind of physics in a MMORPG? (ok I understand there is a difference between skateboarding and a RPG but you get what I mean)
2) Good story line, why don't they get more authors in to write the game stories and help with quests? I mean in S&F books are always about quests and subquests. A off line example is Undying by Clive Baker. I think a MMORPG's make enough money to afford a good author. Everyone should feel that they are the main character in a MMORPG, not just a bit character, Black moon chronicles was the only MMORPG game that I know of to day that.
When it comes down to it, a 3D game or 2D game or VR it's just the visual aspect of the game, it the story, gameplay and most importantly the community that make a game great
I think 2D graphics have loads of potential, just by their nature I belive they could outstrip 3D games in sheer beauty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vengi
LvL 32 Wiz on Dragon Server
LvL 23 Wiz on server 4 EI Korean Beta
http://www.totalformat.com/Guides/LOM3/guide/ this is the unofficial guide to mir3
http://www.totalformat.com/Mir3/siege.avi (right click and save) This is an ingame movie of the siege of Sabuk Wall (a Guild owned castle).
Vengi
LvL 32 Wiz on Dragon Server
LvL 23 Wiz on server 4 EI Korean Beta
http://www.totalformat.com/Guides/LOM3/guide/ this is the unofficial guide to mir3
http://www.totalformat.com/Mir3/siege.avi (right click and save) This is an ingame movie of the siege of Sabuk Wall (a Guild owned castle).
there are factors that stop MMORPG's from having that responsive, clean control feel to them.
One of the bigger ones is connection speed. Pretty much 95% of all the decision making is done by the server. (in any good mmo that is) So what happens is you aim your gun at a bad guy, and fire. Your client sends a packet to the server saying "i have these skills, this weapon, aiming at this bad guy here, did i hit it? and for how much damage?" the server calculates everything mathematically and when its reached its desicion sends a packet back saying "yes you hit it for 56 damage" etc etc etc.
so it's all internet connection dependent. One day we'll all be on connections that blow current ones out of the water. everything will feel like a lan and really responsive and quick and clean. but until then theres nothing we can really do except try our best to emulate that feeling with different techniques. programmers who can do that properly and efficiently are who you want to hire into your dev company.
peace
And from these 2 teams if they could have a smaller team to produce 2D graphics than 3D graphics then the rest of that team could help create the 'game' and thus hopefully help make it better.
I dont think there are a lack of good programmers out there, but a good programmer alone cannot produce an MMORPG. He needs the backing of a company with lots of money, and these companies do not take the risks involved in creating good or new games
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA