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Gay Civil Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe
gnomexxx
Member Posts: 2,920
Now, if this was the case in Medieval Europe, and Europe is now kicking American tail economically (even with their modern gay civil unions), then how do people still assume that civil unions are going to be the end all of civilization? I personally think gay civil unions have the potential to bring a society closer together through inclusiveness.
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Gay Civil Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe
Civil unions between male couples existed around 600 years ago in medieval Europe, a historian now says.
Historical evidence, including legal documents and gravesites, can be interpreted as supporting the prevalence of homosexual relationships hundreds of years ago, said Allan Tulchin of Shippensburg University in Pennsylvania.
If accurate, the results indicate socially sanctioned same-sex unions are nothing new, nor were they taboo in the past.
“Western family structures have been much more varied than many people today seem to realize," Tulchin writes in the September issue of the Journal of Modern History. "And Western legal systems have in the past made provisions for a variety of household structures.”
For example, he found legal contracts from late medieval France that referred to the term "affrèrement," roughly translated as brotherment. Similar contracts existed elsewhere in Mediterranean Europe, Tulchin said.
In the contract, the "brothers" pledged to live together sharing "un pain, un vin, et une bourse," (that's French for one bread, one wine and one purse). The "one purse" referred to the idea that all of the couple's goods became joint property. Like marriage contracts, the "brotherments" had to be sworn before a notary and witnesses, Tulchin explained.
The same type of legal contract of the time also could provide the foundation for a variety of non-nuclear households, including arrangements in which two or more biological brothers inherited the family home from their parents and would continue to live together, Tulchin said.
But non-relatives also used the contracts. In cases that involved single, unrelated men, Tulchin argues, these contracts provide “considerable evidence that the affrèrés were using affrèrements to formalize same-sex loving relationships."
The ins-and-outs of the medieval relationships are tricky at best to figure out.
"I suspect that some of these relationships were sexual, while others may not have been," Tulchin said. "It is impossible to prove either way and probably also somewhat irrelevant to understanding their way of thinking. They loved each other, and the community accepted that.”
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Comments
"They loved each other, and the community accepted that.”
Nice to know that the man heading our government, as well as parts of the country are actually inferior to 15th century Europeans. Gay marriage doesn't hurt me a bit, if they wanna do it, let 'em.
While I have no problem with gay civil unions or marriage, I should point out that this was the exception rather than the rule. Most Medieval societies reacted even more harshly to homosexuality than present. There were exceptions here and there, like this one, but it in no way reflects the majority of medieval cultures in Europe.
Gnome, take no offense, but I can't help but notice the numerous gay support threads you post. Are you out of the closet yet?
He doesn't care what he prints as long as it pushes someone's buttons.
Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong person here, and if so sorry, but I seem to remember he's been out of the closet for a while now...
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
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XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
He doesn't care what he prints as long as it pushes someone's buttons.
Not pressing any buttons here. I was just curious.
He doesn't care what he prints as long as it pushes someone's buttons.
Not pressing any buttons here. I was just curious.
I meant gnomexxx.
And yeah, I do support gay rights. I guess maybe you would have been the same guy who called people "n*gger lovers" during the black civil rights era?
I see that gays are the most maltreated group out there these days. I see this as the civil rights issue of our time. I don't want to be the person who sits on the sideline and let's a group of fellow American's be denied their individual rights and freedoms.
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You're a twister of the truth Gnome. You're on the edge of just being a plain out liar.
"Gay civil Unions Sanctioned in Medieval Europe"?
Give me a break.
Brothers would get this union. And some unrelated men would get this union. So therefor that means they were homosexuals? Please, this is re-writing history. Just as someone tried making Abraham Lincoln gay. It's like homosexuals everywhere want to paint history in the colors of the rainbow. What's with the insecurities?
And yeah, I do support gay rights. I guess maybe you would have been the same guy who called people "n*gger lovers" during the black civil rights era?
I see that gays are the most maltreated group out there these days. I see this as the civil rights issue of our time. I don't want to be the person who sits on the sideline and let's a group of fellow American's be denied their individual rights and freedoms.
Gnome I don't think Dekron meant any offense, I think he was just wondering whether you were gay or not, for whatever curious reason.
LMAO. No. I was just curious if you were since you post numerous gay support threads. I'm not starting a debate, but there is a big, big, BIG difference between the fight for racial equality that blacks achieved and the "rights" that gays say they are not receiving. The only reason why they seek recognition of unions is to promote homosexuality. Why else would they care whether or not people recognize them as married?I work with a gay guy. He is very discreet about it and only discloses the fact to people he trusts (although you can tell from talking to him he is a big flamer). I tell him the same I will tell every other gay "rights" seeker. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle but don't expect me to support it in any vote.
LMAO. No. I was just curious if you were since you post numerous gay support threads. I'm not starting a debate, but there is a big, big, BIG difference between the fight for racial equality that blacks achieved and the "rights" that gays say they are not receiving. The only reason why they seek recognition of unions is to promote homosexuality. Why else would they care whether or not people recognize them as married?I work with a gay guy. He is very discreet about it and only discloses the fact to people he trusts (although you can tell from talking to him he is a big flamer). I tell him the same I will tell every other gay "rights" seeker. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle but don't expect me to support it in any vote.
Oh crap, I do not want to get drawn into this debate, but here goes...
It's not an issue of forcing their lifestyle on others. Many gays want the same legal rights in a marriage or civil union to protect themselves and their partner. Current laws are weak in this regard, and if a parent wants to they can overide the surviving partner in a death in regards to inheritence and burial. Alot of them feel they are in very shaky and frightening ground, with no security, due to this ease.
That's my statement, if someone comes by and quotes me and sucks me into another gay debate I'm going to be pissed. I'm going to look at other threads.
LMAO. No. I was just curious if you were since you post numerous gay support threads. I'm not starting a debate, but there is a big, big, BIG difference between the fight for racial equality that blacks achieved and the "rights" that gays say they are not receiving. The only reason why they seek recognition of unions is to promote homosexuality. Why else would they care whether or not people recognize them as married?I work with a gay guy. He is very discreet about it and only discloses the fact to people he trusts (although you can tell from talking to him he is a big flamer). I tell him the same I will tell every other gay "rights" seeker. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle but don't expect me to support it in any vote.
"Promote homosexuality"? I'm sorry, I just can't get over that one. Just to clear this up. Are you seriously saying that homosexuals care about equal rights (in this case, gay marriage) just to "promote" homosexuality..?
I didn't write the article. And if you're such an expert, then why aren't you publishing articles on respected science sites? I would dare to say that maybe because YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED!
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LMAO. No. I was just curious if you were since you post numerous gay support threads. I'm not starting a debate, but there is a big, big, BIG difference between the fight for racial equality that blacks achieved and the "rights" that gays say they are not receiving. The only reason why they seek recognition of unions is to promote homosexuality. Why else would they care whether or not people recognize them as married?I work with a gay guy. He is very discreet about it and only discloses the fact to people he trusts (although you can tell from talking to him he is a big flamer). I tell him the same I will tell every other gay "rights" seeker. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle but don't expect me to support it in any vote.
How do you "promote" homosexuality? I honestly don't know what that means. Clear that up and then I'll answer, but I'm honestly not sure how to interpret that.===============================
I didn't write the article. And if you're such an expert, then why aren't you publishing articles on respected science sites? I would dare to say that maybe because YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED!
Who said anything about being an expert?
That whole article didn't even substantiate their own claims. They basically said it was a possibility. It was a clear assumption. Especially in contrast to the times, a time when they use to torture and execute homosexuals.
LMAO. No. I was just curious if you were since you post numerous gay support threads. I'm not starting a debate, but there is a big, big, BIG difference between the fight for racial equality that blacks achieved and the "rights" that gays say they are not receiving. The only reason why they seek recognition of unions is to promote homosexuality. Why else would they care whether or not people recognize them as married?I work with a gay guy. He is very discreet about it and only discloses the fact to people he trusts (although you can tell from talking to him he is a big flamer). I tell him the same I will tell every other gay "rights" seeker. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle but don't expect me to support it in any vote.
How do you "promote" homosexuality?
How about the flaming pride marches that are for "equal rights"? How is this not trying to promote being a pure flamer? How is this protesting for equal rights?I didn't write the article. And if you're such an expert, then why aren't you publishing articles on respected science sites? I would dare to say that maybe because YOU'RE NOT QUALIFIED!
Who said anything about being an expert?
That whole article didn't even substantiate their own claims. They basically said it was a possibility. It was a clear assumption. Especially in contrast to the times, a time when they use to torture and execute homosexuals.
Exactly. I see I'm not the only one wondering why an article about homosexuals in medieval Europe was posted on a science website. Clearly it's agenda driven.
Yeah, I don't believe this story represents anything more than some meaningless historical aberration either. The church would still be burning people at the stake even now for scratching their butts on a Sunday if they thought they could get away with it anymore.
I was rather shocked to read recently, though, that gay Civil Unions in one state where they are legal (I forget which) only conferred 6 of the 30 something rights and responsibilities that marriage does. What a rip. But until I'm allowed to marry both of the cute underage sisters who live down the street from me, I don't think I'm going to get too concerned about your problem.
I stopped reading after the second sentence: "Europe is now kicking American tail economically"...
You clearly are baiting people here. Do I need to show you GDP and revenue charts? Or will you simply accept the fact that not a single country in Europe, or all of them combined even come close to being as big of an economical superpower as America?
Are you aware that not one EU country has less than a 5% unemployment rate? Hell, most of them are over 10% for that matter.
Your post may contain some quasi-valid points about butt-rocking knights of yesteryear, but starting off a thread with bad information to tailor your anti-american rhetoric rids this post of any credibility.
Go back to school.
LAMO. Funniest reference ever.
You offering yourself up?
LMAO. No. I was just curious if you were since you post numerous gay support threads. I'm not starting a debate, but there is a big, big, BIG difference between the fight for racial equality that blacks achieved and the "rights" that gays say they are not receiving. The only reason why they seek recognition of unions is to promote homosexuality. Why else would they care whether or not people recognize them as married?I work with a gay guy. He is very discreet about it and only discloses the fact to people he trusts (although you can tell from talking to him he is a big flamer). I tell him the same I will tell every other gay "rights" seeker. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle but don't expect me to support it in any vote.
How do you "promote" homosexuality?
How about the flaming pride marches that are for "equal rights"? How is this not trying to promote being a pure flamer? How is this protesting for equal rights?If you're actually curious, it's protesting for equal rights by undermining existing gender roles and trying to redefine the basis of gender identity.
And that they're having a good time showing off silly costumes while doing it is just a bonus.
I don't really see how this trains children to be flamers... you might as well say that St. Patrick's Day parades train children to be Irish, or to drink a lot. Surely those things are shaped by something other than parades.
Last time I checked Leprechauns were not protesting for "equal rights". From what I understand they are very happy living under their rainbows and not on them.
And that is not at all challenging gender roles. True challenges of gender roles is a form of feminine jurisprudence. It strives for equality among the sexes - not men running around in dresses and makeup.
I stopped reading after the second sentence: "Europe is now kicking American tail economically"...
You clearly are baiting people here. Do I need to show you GDP and revenue charts? Or will you simply accept the fact that not a single country in Europe, or all of them combined even come close to being as big of an economical superpower as America?
Are you aware that not one EU country has less than a 5% unemployment rate? Hell, most of them are over 10% for that matter.
Your post may contain some quasi-valid points about butt-rocking knights of yesteryear, but starting off a thread with bad information to tailor your anti-american rhetoric rids this post of any credibility.
Go back to school.
I don't want to mix in on the debate and certainly don't think of GDP as the end all be all of economic power - however, yes, the countries of the EU combined do have a larger GDP than the USA.
Last time I checked Leprechauns were not protesting for "equal rights". From what I understand they are very happy living under their rainbows and not on them.
And that is not at all challenging gender roles. True challenges of gender roles is a form of feminine jurisprudence. It strives for equality among the sexes - not men running around in dresses and makeup.
I wasn't saying that pride parades were about equal rights. I was saying that they weren't training kids to be flamers. So if we adjust your analogy to apply correctly to what I said, then it would be more accurate to have written that St. Patrick's Day parades make kids into leprechauns like gay pride parades turn kids into flamers. It's just nonsense.
Pride parades are not (entirely) about protesting for equal rights. That's the arena of politics. Parades are to show that gay people have a unified voice and that our struggle for equal rights shouldn't be ignored.
Obviously it's challenging gender roles -- dresses and long hair are for women. For men to wear them is a violation of the traditional gender role of a man. This isn't rocket science here. Gay people aren't challenging gender roles for equality between the sexes, but to show that both of them are equally invalid and fail to encompass the entirety of the human gender and sexual experience. Men being tough and manly is as silly as men being in dresses. Women putting on stubble is as dumb as women putting on makeup.
That's the point.