Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Respawn/Penalty concerns.
leshtricity
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 231
Hey everyone,
After playing WoW for several years, I'm a little concerned with how Warhammer will be modeling it's respawn/death penalty system. I haven't been able to find any info on these issues thus far. After playing WoW, I was really disappointed with both the PvE death penalty AND the PvP penalty, or lack thereof. I'm not saying we need full-loot or anything like that, but c'mon, something.
I think a lot of you WoW vets will agree with me about the PvP respawn/death system. What is the motivation to NOT die if you'll just respawn in under 30 seconds with full effectiveness? Where's the danger? It's like having sex after a vasectomy...it's not fun! All of the WoW battlegrounds were fun the first dozen matches or so. After that, it was completely boring. I knew that if I killed someone, they'd be right back with full effect in under 30 seconds. No damage to armor, no penalty to attributes, no "rez sickness" or anything like that. I just don't think mass PvP is fun when you know killing someone doesn't really 'hurt' them...even though you just killed them, you get me? Armor loss, temporary stat damage, "rez sickness", a higher respawn timer (2-3mins) or something like that. Alterac Valley got REALLY old because of this. The only 'penalty' for dying was the slight inconvenience of OCCASIONALLY having to ride for a few minutes to get back to the fight. Oh and the whole "zerg" thing surely didn't help...god I hate that word.
And PvE penalties should definitely be more severe than a lousy durability damage.
Your thoughts?
the official MMORPG.com deadhead
Comments
Ive been waiting for a game to revive an actual death penalty in an mmo for a long time..EQ1 did it right..FFXI kind of slacked but it still worked for me personally..beyond that its like meh.
I mean whats the point of trying to actually survive a tough battle, or go deep into a difficult dungeon if theirs nothing to lose? Theirs no fear..no challenge..and the rewards arent ever taken for granted..often its exploited as a quick teleport to the nearest town or somthing. I mean in eq1, people would actually seek groups out just for the sake of a better chance of survivability, especially warriors, I didnt venture far without an ally or some travel spells on me.
Frankly I doubt this game will be reviving any challenging death penalties though so meh..
Ok from what i have seen of game play from their demenstrations there will be no real down side for PvP deaths to the person that died with maybe a 30 sec time respawn for their battle grounds. But to the person that killed you he will be given Exp as if you were just some mod that died acording to your level. Also you will drop random loot for your level as well. Kind of like alterac valley but better stuff.
As for PvE i agree that there should be some penelty for dieing but i dont want to have worked for 2 weeks of Exp just have it taken from me because i agroed to many mobs.
The leveling system is heavily based on PvP, you'll be dieing a lot, so it wouldn't make sense to put a much of a penalty for dieing.
When DAoC came out with a rating that took the amount of points you earned per times you died people went silly trying to run away from fights.
People try not to die anyway you need to reward people who die as much as you reward people who live.
classes like heavy tanks who get in there and mix it up so that the healers can stand back and heal, and healers who are main targets and die often but their group really wouldnt win without them... so yes You should be rewarded with kills when you dead that your group earns, and no there shouldnt be a penalty for death in pvp.
DAoC the penalty for death was you had to rez..... but when you whole group died you had to go back to your home zone for a full respawn which took you 10 minutes. thaty was a stiff enough penalty.
no penalty on death is pointless PVP where everyone is invincible.
A death penalty that exceeds a short respawn timer and a durability loss would limit the RvR fighting considerably. Players would level up using Mythic's PvE content in an effort to limit their losses.
I want everyone to get stuck into the RvR in big chaotic battles, not hold back for fear of losing their hard won stuff.
If I HAD to have a penalty other than ressing timers and dura, I would go for a small exp loss. Dieing over and over could lose you a level that way, but one or two deaths in a row could easily be overcome by killing a couple of players, thereby keeping your level constant. I you happen to be better than your enemies, you will obviously advance in levels quicker than them. I guess the exp loss you suffer for dieing would have to be say... 50% of exp gained from killing someone, so that levelling doesn't become too tedious.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
Basically what it comes down to is, people who are afriad to die are afraid to fight. They will avoid combat at all costs unless they A, out rank their opponent, or B, out number their opponent. The only penalty needed for pvp and pve is the fact that you have to run back to the fight, or wait for a rez.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
The only games that I'd like to have a severe penalty for dying in is a game that is totally balances in 1 vs 1. What fun is it to play a tank class or a healing class or any other class that has limited abilities to kill an opponent so you'll die or run away all the time. Grouping is an alternative but that is one thing that doesn't happen all the time.
If there was a major penalty I'm sure most players would run around with the most powerful class available. Now I haven't played WAR or anything and don't know how well the classes are balances but from my experience with other games balance is seldom made for 1 vs 1.
Get a group, make some friends, go and do RvR the way it is meant to be done. Stop being a care bear. If there is no incentive to NOT die you will wind up with the /afk people in AV ruining the play experience of the people who want to WIN instead of wait 30 minutes for 20 honor and a token...
If you use "plz" because it is shorter than "please" I will use "no" because it is shorter than "yes."
Get a group, make some friends, go and do RvR the way it is meant to be done. Stop being a care bear. If there is no incentive to NOT die you will wind up with the /afk people in AV ruining the play experience of the people who want to WIN instead of wait 30 minutes for 20 honor and a token...
Mentality that WoW brought about? There are quite a few trends that WoW brought to the genre that I don't like ,but that is not one of them. I don't remember having to group in UO. UO in my opinion was the first big MMO. MMORPG's in my opinion are not about forced grouping. In my opinion I dont believe I should have to group to advance my character. Using WoW as an example since it seems to be the only game anyone has played. Early in the game and for leveling yes it is very solo freindly. At level cap WoW is not solo freindly. Try advancing your character in any way at level cap by yourself and tell me its a solo game.I personally don't beleive I should have to group to advance my character. You call me a carebear becuase I solo? Whats more carebear going solo and taking on all comers or hiding behind your freinds and claiming you are good? Grouping should not be forced. I want to group because I want to and with people I enjoy not because I need their class to fill a raid spot. I made some good friends on WoW but they can't compare to the reaqltionships I made on UO because I grouped with people on UO because I liked them not because i needed to.
I think Mythic will do whats best for the game, so im fine with their decision to not make death an issue BUT:
1. I have always been a big fan of Perma Death. I would like to see Perma Death server in each major MMO. I think real death would be the solution to many many issues MMO´s in general have.
2. For WAR I would like to see Scenarios where death throws you out of the Scenario instance back into the world. Mythic could easily implement a kind of "Last one standing"-Scenario you know, holding a hill or a castle etc. and if one side is completely wiped the (short) scenario ends.
Death would matter in that and it still wouldn´t hurt.
Having to respawn somewhere other than where you died is a penalty.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
A harsh death penalty in an RvR-based game is not a good idea, in my opinion.
Right away we would have what you pointed out, people avoiding RvR until the level cap so they avoid as many deaths as possible, perhaps just doing a few RvR quests along the way. If I was losing experience, money, loot, durability, or time in anything but non-existent to mild amounts in RvR, I would not participate nearly as much as I plan because I do not want to have to spend lots of time recovering from a single death - I want to have fun and fight. Fighting for 2 minutes and then recovering for 20 is not cool.
In PvE, however, I would not mind a more substantial death penalty, since PvE deaths are usually avoidable and should be rare if you have some idea what you are doing, assuming WAR is anything like other mainstream MMORPGs in this regard. In RvR I'd like to see the only penalty be a respawn at some relatively safe point, but in PvE perhaps some experience and durability loss would be fine, too, simply so people do not kamikaze content.
No idea if they'll follow DAOC's penalty model...but in that game dying resulted in you respawning fairly far away from the point of death...so you'd lose a lot of time (10-20 minutes) getting back to the fight. (this has been significantly reduced in recent years to appease players complaints).
You also took a hit to your constitution every time you died and didn't get resurrected... which you had to buy back at a healer in town.... and the gold costs could add up to quite a bit if you were careless and died too frequently.... and finally, dying damaged your gear.... which also had to be repaired....though these costs weren't too bad except for Epic level gear.
I'm sure WAR will improve on the previous system. If I had to guess I'd say WAR will penalize death less as they don't appear to want to encourage people to avoid fighting.....lets just hope it doesn't end up feeling rather pointless.....
I used to be one of those who avoided fighting if the odds were long....I took pride in not dying, but most players didn't care....they just fought and tried to take down as many folks as they could before they died...which I feel is a flaw in a PVP system, but apparently others prefer it this way.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
if you really want to be punished for dying come play eve, you sit in your belt mining in low sec and i blow you up... you just lost about two days worth of cash.
the only reason it works is because PvP is so rare and avoidable. in WAR you expect to die once for each kill you score, and you expect to be constantly fighting. can you imagine losing some gear if you die? you die 5 times (say thats average for a 10 minute spree) and you're naked.
death penalties dont work when death is a neccesary part of the game.
I always thought a cool system would be to have sort of like the spirit healers in WoW bgs, but have them wander the map, which would end up being alot like the wait times.. but make more sense(to me anyway)... as you don't know how much time you have left... also if you were farther away from safety.. it'd take longer. Also you might have an alternative to respawn back at your camp/safe point.. and sort of do a barracks system where you'd need to get your bearings a bit ( I dunno, put your armor back on or something ). The choice would mostly be unknown wait time and potentially be rez'd out by where you were .. or start back at camp and have a known wait time or short debuff (but in a safe area).
I think this idea would greatly influence how much rez'ing in combat would play out. I think after battles, priests/healers would actually rez and buff and protect people. You see this sort of mentality alot in Guild Wars, and I really liked that one aspect of that game.
As for death penalties I think a small exp hit would be fine, but if you started throwing debuffs then you'd just get gradually worse and worse as you play... and in scenarios.. you'd probly see alot of camping.
I think seeing a black orc charge the front lines of an dwarf army and try and take out as many as he can before he dies with no consers of death is exactly what mythic is trying to go for. The hole death penetly would cause those crazy orcs not to charge head long with no consern.
now i do agrea that PvE deaths should have a down side dura/exp/time what ever.
The instanced PvP battles I have seen on vids do appear to be rather quick, so a deficit of players returning to their mission objective may be an adequate penalty. I take this to mean that if there is a capture the flag scenario, the less players able to capture and carry that flag will impact the overall performance of the group. If it is persistent world all out PvP, that would be less of an impact. I can see more zerging happening there. However, the more organized the race is, the less deaths they will experience, so the more they can build up victory points for their side and achieve overall influence of the realm area. So while zerging will happen, it will be because fools will always rush instead of regrouping and counterattacking effectively.
From what i read, there will definitely be no serious penalty in PvP areas, namely becaus ethey expect high death rates for all involved. In PvE areas, I think they will be more strict. They want the game to be FUN first and foremost, and not be a grind to repay debt or lost levels. The challenge is doing what you can to help your race achieve dominance in the tiered realms and capture the enemies capital.
I've always wanted to see a timer activated if you are killed - say five minutes. While the timer is active you cannot engage anyone who you were fighting with when you died (in PvP) or capture any points that were nearby. Your free to do anything else but until that timer runs out your out of that fight. This would prevent zerging but allow players to do other stuff and not lock them into a period in which they cannot play.
looting of the backpack for the win !!!!!as well if u are deemed red a possible drop of a weapon thus killing all zerging of nubbins who are 20 lvls lower than there attacker and making the adrenaline always rush when u see a red char ........or if u are like me trying to outrun all the whites
No way. That would kill rivalries, which was one of the finer points of UO and DAoC. when your group lost to another group, your sole focus became to get back out there and kill them. Even bypassing weaker groups and smaller groups on your way back to the zone or area where you ran into them. It turned into a giant game of manhunt and when you avenged your death it then became their focus to kill YOUR group. this is how you get a rivalry going. When you have rivals it makes the game more interesting and more like a sport, more like RvR and less like a game of whack the mole.
To this day 6 years later, I still remember my rivals from DAoC.
Get a group, make some friends, go and do RvR the way it is meant to be done. Stop being a care bear. If there is no incentive to NOT die you will wind up with the /afk people in AV ruining the play experience of the people who want to WIN instead of wait 30 minutes for 20 honor and a token...
From Wagoner: "Try advancing your character in any way at level cap by yourself and tell me its a solo game." VERY SIMPLE! Just go to battle grounds, hide/stealth and try not to /afk out of the battle. In a couple of weeks you can have some of the best gear in the game. Hell not only can you advance solo but you really only have to be at the computer once every 4 minutes and 59 seconds. Another way! Find a spot to farm what ever you can sell and farm farm farm farm farm farm farm farm farm and you can buy just about all epic gear from the AH. A VERY high percentage of quests are soloable in the outlands (I want to say like 98%) and can net some very decent gear at level 70. You can do tradeskills that benifit your class and get really really nice gear. So, there are four ways to advance your character SOLO and EVEN AFK from level 10 to level 70 and I will bet to even level 80!Mentality that WoW brought about? There are quite a few trends that WoW brought to the genre that I don't like ,but that is not one of them. I don't remember having to group in UO. UO in my opinion was the first big MMO. MMORPG's in my opinion are not about forced grouping. In my opinion I dont believe I should have to group to advance my character. Using WoW as an example since it seems to be the only game anyone has played. Early in the game and for leveling yes it is very solo freindly. At level cap WoW is not solo freindly. Try advancing your character in any way at level cap by yourself and tell me its a solo game.I personally don't beleive I should have to group to advance my character. You call me a carebear becuase I solo? Whats more carebear going solo and taking on all comers or hiding behind your freinds and claiming you are good? Grouping should not be forced. I want to group because I want to and with people I enjoy not because I need their class to fill a raid spot. I made some good friends on WoW but they can't compare to the reaqltionships I made on UO because I grouped with people on UO because I liked them not because i needed to.
I do not call you a carebear because you solo. I did not call you a carebear at all. I called the people who expect to solo to level cap WITHOUT fear of death on a regular basis and WITHOUT fear of a real death penalty a Carebear. Learn to read and comprehend. Also, I said NOTHING about forced grouping. I said it SHOULD be about grouping. It should be about getting a group of friends together going and having some fun TOGETHER. In fact just the opposite of what you said I should not be "forced" to group with a bunch of idiots who have soloed thier entire career to level faster so that they have no idea how to act and respond in a group situation, when I group to do a dungeon.
If you want to talk about previous games, I came from EQ. EQ rocked. If you were at max level and you grouped with someone you pretty much KNEW they knew how to play thier class or they would not be where they were. People who had no idea how to play thier class in a group situation did not last very long. I am not saying you did not have retards at max level because you did. But probably not 10% of what you have in WoW. Just as an example, I was dueling a level 70 druid that had all blues with a few purples. They kept wondering how I was getting out of thier roots so fast. I was on my level 65 pally wtih all greens and beat the snot out of them... HELLO if you had grouped with a pally you should have known about Blessing of Freedom. I could sit here for hours and list examples from PvP, and PvE.
My whole point is in an MMO you should NOT be able to solo your way to max level WITHOUT FEAR OF GETTING KILLED ON A REGULAR BASIS UNLESS YOU ARE VERY CAREFUL AND VERY GOOD AT YOUR CLASS. Maybe I should have been a bit more clear the first time I typed that.
If you use "plz" because it is shorter than "please" I will use "no" because it is shorter than "yes."
Irony there, there is no honor on WoW Battlegrounds... especially the AFK's in AV.
~~Internet gaming is not for the faint of heart or the dumb of mind.~~
Death penalties are stupid. They just encourage people to run away more and not participate.
Did you ever play a fighting game? Everyone is on equal footing, no death penalty. And yet somehow is still stings when you lose.
I swear MMO-ers are pathetic. They don't actually want fair competition. They want ganking. So you get systems where gear counts for all (instead of skill, as is the case with fighters or FPS games) and they want absurd death penalties so that even more ganking and less fair fighting happens.