Our schools try to teach on such a broad range of subjects that it's no wonder that our school systems are failing so miserably in basic areas like reading and writing. We try to teach sex ed to second graders for an entire semester when we should be teaching them to develop their reading comprehension (i'm biased towards English by the way, since it's my major and what I'm good at). The problem with our education system is that it lacks focus. It tries to be too politically correct with all of its multi cultural celebratory nonsense. Now, with all of that said...some people are dumb, we all know that. You can't force people to be intelligent, nor can you force them to apply themselves in school, which is why the No Child Left Behind act is the bane of all teachers. I do have an issue with the way we quantify the success of our schools though. Standardized tests are...say it with me....useless and counter productive. The end result with national standardized testing is that you have a bunch of cookie cutter teachers having their creativity stifled while little Johnny STILL doesn't care about The Great Gatsby. My solution: get rid of standards, and start having objectives. The objective of elementary school: to prepare as many children as possible for high school by teaching them the fundamentals of math, science, english, and history. The objective of high school: to prepare as many young adults as possible for college by giving to them a broader message regarding all of those basic subjects, while furthering the process by narrowing their field of study according to what they are interested in so that they don't switch majors 5 times once they hit college. (yet another problem, it takes too damn long to get done with school in America) When you have standards, you get too specific in what the teachers must teach, and they end up stifled as a result, which is why more than half of all first year inner city teachers quit after their first year. How do we make sure the kids know what they need to know? Develop a test that better examines the cultural and ethnic diversity in the classroom. Meaning a test that recognizes that a kid in California isn't going to get the same education as a kid in New York. Right now we're giving the same questions to kids in Oregon as we are kids in Arkansas, and that's just plain stupid. Cultural variations play a HUGE part in what is important and relevent to a young student, and our current system fails to recognize that.
I agree with all that. I don't think our public school system can be perfect because of the basic fundamentals of how it works, but those are definately steps that would help improve it.
At the root of it I think the public school system needs competition. Monopolization can never equal excellence. Unfortunately I believe our education promotes socialism at least in college and that's where our teachers come from. Even in regular public schools, kids are walking into a socialistic institution every weekday...perhaps they start thinking that government must provide us with these services otherwise there is no other viable alternative for them. Little do they know if taxes were seriously reduced how the economy would explode, buying power would increase, people would keep far more of their money, private schools would be in demand, private schools would compete, public schools would then have to compete...ect.
/emote does the bullcrap dance.
What, are you kidding? The fact that kids in this and other countries can get education for free is a great thing! It's not that there's no viable alternative - thousands of people scrap the public school system in favor of prep schools and private schools. The moment you make education providers join a competitive market, poor kids stop getting an education.
Public schools aren't homogeneous! Parents will move places to get to the "best" school they can possibly get. Yes, we have socialized education here in the U.S., but I don't buy for a second that public schools are government brainwashing machines. Public schools need attention, resources and strong community and parental involvement to succeed.
While I agree with most of Draenor's post, I don't know he's referring to regarding "multi-cultural celebratory nonsense". You said yourself that cultural diversity is great, and it raises awareness. What gives?
Lots of U.S. Americans dont have schools and therefore unto its because of the Iraq and South Africa, and I really do want world peace.
Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny. Lao-Tze
Develop a test that better examines the cultural and ethnic diversity in the classroom. Meaning a test that recognizes that a kid in California isn't going to get the same education as a kid in New York. Right now we're giving the same questions to kids in Oregon as we are kids in Arkansas, and that's just plain stupid. Cultural variations play a HUGE part in what is important and relevent to a young student, and our current system fails to recognize that.
Ok, I have a problem with this.
Tell me, does 2+2 add up to to something different in California than it does in New York?
Is the date of the Battle of Hastings different for a black kid than it is for a white kid?
If I asked a kid from Florida and a kid from Washington state to find Madagascar on a map can they each point to different spot and still both be correct?
Does the mitochondria have a different funtion in cellular biology depending on whether you are talking to a hispanic kid or an asian kid?
What exactly did you mean? You said that cultural variations play a huge part in what is important and relevant to a young student. But what real bearing does that have on giving them a good education? You can't change the laws of thermodynamics to be more culturally appealing to a particular group.
What, are you kidding? The fact that kids in this and other countries can get education for free is a great thing! It's not that there's no viable alternative - thousands of people scrap the public school system in favor of prep schools and private schools. The moment you make education providers join a competitive market, poor kids stop getting an education. Public schools aren't homogeneous! Parents will move places to get to the "best" school they can possibly get. Yes, we have socialized education here in the U.S., but I don't buy for a second that public schools are government brainwashing machines. Public schools need attention, resources and strong community and parental involvement to succeed.
While I agree with most of Draenor's post, I don't know he's referring to regarding "multi-cultural celebratory nonsense". You said yourself that cultural diversity is great, and it raises awareness. What gives?
How do you make the connection that once something joins a competitive network then poor people lose out? That's completely untrue. Obviously tax needs to be lowered drastically. If the Department of Education was abolished the taxpayer would save over 500 Billion dollars (04-05 numbers...probably more now). That would be enough savings that a parent could spend it on private school tuition in a competitive market, not to mention that private schools often have payment plans on top of that...especially in a competitive market.
The public eduction system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens. Why? Because THAT'S what the government wants.
I'll let George Carlin explain it for you....he's a liberal by the way. Let's face it, most people are in debt up to their heads, and dumb as **** when it comes to politics. Two things people should know the most about. You think the government wants to churn out citizens who will question authority and resist with civil disobedience or otherwise (The stuff America was founded on!)? You think they want more people calling their Congressman to demand change? You think our government wants to be pressured and challenged to serve our interests instead of theirs? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and you're niave to think so.
I've been homeschooled, privately schooled and publically schooled. I learned FAR more about what's going on in the world as a homeschooler (I was more self schooled, however), and private schooler! It was in those times that I truely developed an independent mind regarding real world issues. I didn't even have to burden the taxpayer. There aren't many current affairs classes in public school, perhaps they should have them and let students have a discussion and/or debate about the issues that matter in the real world.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Develop a test that better examines the cultural and ethnic diversity in the classroom. Meaning a test that recognizes that a kid in California isn't going to get the same education as a kid in New York. Right now we're giving the same questions to kids in Oregon as we are kids in Arkansas, and that's just plain stupid. Cultural variations play a HUGE part in what is important and relevent to a young student, and our current system fails to recognize that.
Ok, I have a problem with this.
Tell me, does 2+2 add up to to something different in California than it does in New York?
Is the date of the Battle of Hastings different for a black kid than it is for a white kid?
If I asked a kid from Florida and a kid from Washington state to find Madagascar on a map can they each point to different spot and still both be correct?
Does the mitochondria have a different funtion in cellular biology depending on whether you are talking to a hispanic kid or an asian kid?
What exactly did you mean? You said that cultural variations play a huge part in what is important and relevant to a young student. But what real bearing does that have on giving them a good education? You can't change the laws of thermodynamics to be more culturally appealing to a particular group.
Things like math are generally universal, but when it comes to subjects like history and English, the relevence of certain topics, such as which books the kids will be able to relate to, what parts of history have the most influence on THEIR modern lives, etc. then you have a major difference in how a classroom should be taught. And with standardized tests, you also standardize teachers into a mode where they all teach the same things to a wide variety of classrooms and students, and that simply doesn't work.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
How do you make the connection that once something joins a competitive network then poor people lose out? That's completely untrue. Obviously tax needs to be lowered drastically. If the Department of Education was abolished the taxpayer would save over 500 Billion dollars (04-05 numbers...probably more now). That would be enough savings that a parent could spend it on private school tuition in a competitive market, not to mention that private schools often have payment plans on top of that...especially in a competitive market.
The public eduction system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens. Why? Because THAT'S what the government wants.
I'll let George Carlin explain it for you....he's a liberal by the way. Let's face it, most people are in debt up to their heads, and dumb as **** when it comes to politics. Two things people should know the most about. You think the government wants to churn out citizens who will question authority and resist with civil disobedience or otherwise (The stuff America was founded on!)? You think they want more people calling their Congressman to demand change? You think our government wants to be pressured and challenged to serve our interests instead of theirs? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and you're niave to think so.
I've been homeschooled, privately schooled and publically schooled. I learned FAR more about what's going on in the world as a homeschooler (I was more self schooled, however), and private schooler! It was in those times that I truely developed an independent mind regarding real world issues. I didn't even have to burden the taxpayer. There aren't many current affairs classes in public school, perhaps they should have them and let students have a discussion and/or debate about the issues that matter in the real world.
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
How do you make the connection that once something joins a competitive network then poor people lose out? That's completely untrue. Obviously tax needs to be lowered drastically. If the Department of Education was abolished the taxpayer would save over 500 Billion dollars (04-05 numbers...probably more now). That would be enough savings that a parent could spend it on private school tuition in a competitive market, not to mention that private schools often have payment plans on top of that...especially in a competitive market.
The public eduction system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens. Why? Because THAT'S what the government wants.
I'll let George Carlin explain it for you....he's a liberal by the way. Let's face it, most people are in debt up to their heads, and dumb as **** when it comes to politics. Two things people should know the most about. You think the government wants to churn out citizens who will question authority and resist with civil disobedience or otherwise (The stuff America was founded on!)? You think they want more people calling their Congressman to demand change? You think our government wants to be pressured and challenged to serve our interests instead of theirs? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and you're niave to think so.
I've been homeschooled, privately schooled and publically schooled. I learned FAR more about what's going on in the world as a homeschooler (I was more self schooled, however), and private schooler! It was in those times that I truely developed an independent mind regarding real world issues. I didn't even have to burden the taxpayer. There aren't many current affairs classes in public school, perhaps they should have them and let students have a discussion and/or debate about the issues that matter in the real world.
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots.
So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
How do you make the connection that once something joins a competitive network then poor people lose out? That's completely untrue. Obviously tax needs to be lowered drastically. If the Department of Education was abolished the taxpayer would save over 500 Billion dollars (04-05 numbers...probably more now). That would be enough savings that a parent could spend it on private school tuition in a competitive market, not to mention that private schools often have payment plans on top of that...especially in a competitive market.
The public eduction system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens. Why? Because THAT'S what the government wants.
I'll let George Carlin explain it for you....he's a liberal by the way. Let's face it, most people are in debt up to their heads, and dumb as **** when it comes to politics. Two things people should know the most about. You think the government wants to churn out citizens who will question authority and resist with civil disobedience or otherwise (The stuff America was founded on!)? You think they want more people calling their Congressman to demand change? You think our government wants to be pressured and challenged to serve our interests instead of theirs? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and you're niave to think so.
I've been homeschooled, privately schooled and publically schooled. I learned FAR more about what's going on in the world as a homeschooler (I was more self schooled, however), and private schooler! It was in those times that I truely developed an independent mind regarding real world issues. I didn't even have to burden the taxpayer. There aren't many current affairs classes in public school, perhaps they should have them and let students have a discussion and/or debate about the issues that matter in the real world.
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots.
So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
vary good post,O and did that debate just make u sick or what,and as far as the freedom alot of it was taken away in world war 1 and 2 but we did get it back, thats who we are and thats way things will be,fear not my friend with people like u around we will not lose one thing forever just for a short time,history is on your side. department of education must go NOW.
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots. So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
Holy crap! Did I say that public education was free? /checks Oh, that's right, I didn't! I said that people who were bankrupt can send their children to public school for free.
If parents don't want to send their children to a public school, that's their prerogative. The funding of public schools varies by state and county, and I'm not going to sit here discussing the valid methods of taxation for every state and county in the United States, mainly because I don't know enough about them all - or else I would.
Giving back to their country means participating in the work force, the political process, in innovation, in economy, in government, in medicine and in MMO gaming.
Let's see, was i bashing George Carlin? Well, yes, I guess I was - that was wrong. Do I consider witticisms a valid argument? No, I don't. I don't think George Carlin was making anything resembling an argument in the above quote, and thus, defending your point using comedy is meaningless. Thus, it was not that he was a comedian - it was that you quoted a line of indignation, meant for entertainment value, in absence of an argument. What makes me qualified is that I'm trying to make a linear argument, whereas you're repeatedly emphasizing a thesis. Kind of like how Pyrite quotes Bill Maher instead of thinking.
Your next paragraphs equate teenagers' nonchalance with that of the ineptness of the public school system. You have yet to draw a relation. In fact, that particular paragraph affirms the OP's statement about how children themselves, not the public education system, need examination.
I don't know how many articles of the Constitution there are and neither do I care. Whether or not the supremacy clause and the ratification clause are in separate articles is irrelevant (though I'm pretty sure they are). What I do know is how the Constitution is structured, the powers attributed to each branch of government, and the extensive content and ideology behind it, its roots in the European Enlightenment, the events of the Constitutional Convention, its amendments and its changing interpretation across Supreme Courts in American History. I think that's more important than any silly trivia fact about the number of articles in the Constitution. For the record, I can't name all five Simpsons characters... or maybe I can: Marge, Homer, Bart, Maggie....and that girl, damn, so I can't.
You're pissed at the public school system because many Americans side differently than you do in the safety-freedom spectrum? I had plenty of friends in high school who believed in safety over freedom, and plenty more who believed the opposite. The public school system does not produce a homogeneous people. Republicans, as far as I'm aware, generally argue safety first, freedom second - this is pertaining to your witnessing this spectacle at the N.H. debate.
With regards to your last paragraph - teaching discipline is markedly independent of citizenry. Discipline is part of a good character ethic - if, as you said, kids didn't "shut up", teachers wouldn't be able to do their jobs teaching. Teachers are people, too. They want and love to do their jobs, or else they'd find different careers. Flaws in how society deals with badly behaved children is less of the fault of the public school system - its the fault of humanity not knowing how to handle bad behavior.
An argument comparing government indoctrination and disruptive class behavior is appalling.
With regards to your final statement, years and years of mandatory public schooling has advanced this country to a level much, much further than any country I know of without mandatory schooling and a public education system.
I think part of the problem is lack of parent involvement. Simply put a lot of parents don't want to be bothered. They want to drop their kids off at school, pick them up and that's it. It's then up to the school to deal with their kids problems and that's just not right. I don't care if both parents work, if they're tired after work, whatever. Get involved in your childs education for Pete's sake.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
Ok so I am studying to become a high school science teacher and all of these are problems that I will one day eventually face on a day to day process.
Parental support is a huge issue and unfortunately from certain studies I have seen that the lack of parental support is extreme in the poor/poverish classes. However, I am not saying that other classes don't have the same issues. The issues behind why a parent doesn't support their child while school could be from several reasons 1) working too much to support the family, 2) single parent home, 3) drug/alcohol/etc. addict , 4) don't think they are smart enough to help the child, 5) don't care. Getting involved for them is ultimately in the end the teacher's job (but yet they don't want to be faced with the idea of being involved in the child's education because then they feel like the teacher is telling them how to raise the child...go figure they drop a child off at school for eight hours a day and they don't want the teacher to be influential??)
As a country, we pay extremely low taxes and until a student goes to college, their schooling is free. Other countries especially in Central America and South America their schooling is free all the way through college. However, in those countries taxes are extremely high anywhere from 30%-80%. Most students in those countries do not make to high school. Most are pulled out of school by 6th grade because the family needs the money that theses kids can make to help support the family. So I would rather stay in this country and pay for my college education then be forced to work by the time I was 12.
In schools the problem of attention spans does have to do with the home life. In the past ten years, I have noticed an increasing trend of rude, ignorant, abusive, lack -luster, abnoxious, arrogant children. I am all for parents teaching their children to have self-worth but at what point does it need to include the above items. I hate walking into a classroom and allowing the students to call me by my first name; that shows no sign of respect that I feel a teacher deserves and at what point is a teacher on the same level as a student??
Now for the teachers turn!! There are many problems with students, but just as many problems with teachers. I remember walking into my high school biology class and have an extremely boring teacher, who felt that his word was the Bible. At that age, students should be able to be presented with facts, information, options, etc. to formulate their own ideas, morals and foundations and not be told what to believe in or how they need to be.
A huge problem for students are teachers that lack inspiration and creativeness. Who in the world wants to sit through a class where the teacher just lectures, no powerpoint, no activites, nothing?! Can we say boring!! Sure a lot of the information given is redundant, but it is up to the teachers to create and inspire the students to learn and keep learning!
Originally posted by princessauri A huge problem for students are teachers that lack inspiration and creativeness. Who in the world wants to sit through a class where the teacher just lectures, no powerpoint, no activites, nothing?! Can we say boring!! Sure a lot of the information given is redundant, but it is up to the teachers to create and inspire the students to learn and keep learning!
Congratulations on your first post, welcome. I'd just like to say that some people are just excellent lecturers.
How do you make the connection that once something joins a competitive network then poor people lose out? That's completely untrue. Obviously tax needs to be lowered drastically. If the Department of Education was abolished the taxpayer would save over 500 Billion dollars (04-05 numbers...probably more now). That would be enough savings that a parent could spend it on private school tuition in a competitive market, not to mention that private schools often have payment plans on top of that...especially in a competitive market.
The public eduction system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens. Why? Because THAT'S what the government wants.
I'll let George Carlin explain it for you....he's a liberal by the way. Let's face it, most people are in debt up to their heads, and dumb as **** when it comes to politics. Two things people should know the most about. You think the government wants to churn out citizens who will question authority and resist with civil disobedience or otherwise (The stuff America was founded on!)? You think they want more people calling their Congressman to demand change? You think our government wants to be pressured and challenged to serve our interests instead of theirs? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and you're niave to think so.
I've been homeschooled, privately schooled and publically schooled. I learned FAR more about what's going on in the world as a homeschooler (I was more self schooled, however), and private schooler! It was in those times that I truely developed an independent mind regarding real world issues. I didn't even have to burden the taxpayer. There aren't many current affairs classes in public school, perhaps they should have them and let students have a discussion and/or debate about the issues that matter in the real world.
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots.
So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
But It's not the schools keeping them from learning the articles of the constitution and if the schools were "obedient little citizens" they would know every thing you want them to know BECAUSE THEY TEACH THAT ALL AT SCHOOL! I'll repeat it THEY TEACH EVERY THING YOU WANT THEM TO KNOW AT SCHOOL!!!!!!
Did you even go to a public school? The problem is not exactly the curriculum as much as it is the students just not giving a fuck. I went through Government, US History, Geometry, World History, English 1, 2, American Lit. They really do teach people about the constitution and our freedoms. The students just do not care about half of what is taught and are mostly just waiting to either get to lunch or for the end of the day.
And why do students not give a fuck now as opposed to 10 years ago? People as a whole do not change, only societal trends and the ways with which we test the students' knowledge change. I would argue that it is impossible to make a legitimate argument that students today just don't care and that that is the difference between students from decades past, because you simply can't KNOW that. So instead of just deciding that it's because today's kids are a bunch of lazy idiots, how about looking to find some ways to actually make them care? As I said in my origional post, school systems generally tend to ignore cultural trends in how they test and quantify knowledge in students, and you simply can't do that. A 50 year old today might know the capital of some obscure country or be able to recite the precise moment at which Habeus Corpus was enacted, but I bet a 20 year old could better explain the workings of a modern computer. Now, which is more important in a modern society? It's all about how you judge what knowledge is relevent and important.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
And why do students not give a fuck now as opposed to 10 years ago? People as a whole do not change, only societal trends and the ways with which we test the students' knowledge change. I would argue that it is impossible to make a legitimate argument that students today just don't care and that that is the difference between students from decades past, because you simply can't KNOW that. So instead of just deciding that it's because today's kids are a bunch of lazy idiots, how about looking to find some ways to actually make them care? As I said in my origional post, school systems generally tend to ignore cultural trends in how they test and quantify knowledge in students, and you simply can't do that. A 50 year old today might know the capital of some obscure country or be able to recite the precise moment at which Habeus Corpus was enacted, but I bet a 20 year old could better explain the workings of a modern computer. Now, which is more important in a modern society? It's all about how you judge what knowledge is relevent and important.
Now I never said they gave a fuck 10 years ago either. I never said todays kids either. Kids in general are just not putting much in to their education.
Your next paragraphs equate teenagers' nonchalance with that of the ineptness of the public school system. You have yet to draw a relation. In fact, that particular paragraph affirms the OP's statement about how children themselves, not the public education system, need examination.
I don't know how many articles of the Constitution there are and neither do I care. Whether or not the supremacy clause and the ratification clause are in separate articles is irrelevant (though I'm pretty sure they are). What I do know is how the Constitution is structured, the powers attributed to each branch of government, and the extensive content and ideology behind it, its roots in the European Enlightenment, the events of the Constitutional Convention, its amendments and its changing interpretation across Supreme Courts in American History. I think that's more important than any silly trivia fact about the number of articles in the Constitution. For the record, I can't name all five Simpsons characters... or maybe I can: Marge, Homer, Bart, Maggie....and that girl, damn, so I can't.
You're pissed at the public school system because many Americans side differently than you do in the safety-freedom spectrum? I had plenty of friends in high school who believed in safety over freedom, and plenty more who believed the opposite. The public school system does not produce a homogeneous people. Republicans, as far as I'm aware, generally argue safety first, freedom second - this is pertaining to your witnessing this spectacle at the N.H. debate. With regards to your last paragraph - teaching discipline is markedly independent of citizenry. Discipline is part of a good character ethic - if, as you said, kids didn't "shut up", teachers wouldn't be able to do their jobs teaching. Teachers are people, too. They want and love to do their jobs, or else they'd find different careers. Flaws in how society deals with badly behaved children is less of the fault of the public school system - its the fault of humanity not knowing how to handle bad behavior. An argument comparing government indoctrination and disruptive class behavior is appalling. With regards to your final statement, years and years of mandatory public schooling has advanced this country to a level much, much further than any country I know of without mandatory schooling and a public education system.
I guess you believe education is merely a one size fits all social institution? There is no way that can be true. Kids come from all walks of life and learn in all different types of ways. Public education treat kids like they're clones. The beauty of of private schools is that they serve the student instead of the student serving the school (doing well on cookie cutter standardized tests so the school gets funding is stupid). Private schools come in all different shapes and sizes and so it's easy to find one that will be suitable. They cost money, but in a healthy economy it doesn't matter, jacking up taxes kills the economy and so you and I have to depend on subpar government monopolized programs just to get by.
It doesn't matter how much money govt pumps into the public school system; if the competition isn't there then there is no incentive to teach well to every student. Once you become a paying customer for education only then does the school start treating you like a valued customer because you ARE a VALUED customer becuase you have VALUE. So if students start misbehaving or doing poorly then there WILL be a solution found or else they lose the customer.
Knowing how many articles of the Constitution there are just means you probably have studied it thoroughly...it's 7 by the way. Did you know the Constitution delegates no power to the Federal government to facilitate public education? That means they can't get involved. That's why I want to abolish the Dept of Education....at least that's one reason.
Kids are disruptive because one size does not fit all in education. Public school teachers are also involved in the worst union that hurts kids and serves the teachers. Teachers can be dumb as nails, but to fire him/her you have to jump through a million hoops.
Since private schooled children outperform public schooled children. Maybe the public schools are just taking the credit for advancing us?
Offtopic:
The Democrats aren't anymore anti-premptive war on countries that can't do us harm (therefore they are concerned with safety over freedom). The reason is they are involved in the Isreal lobby (AIPAC) too, among others and so you better believe it when I tell you that we will still be stuck in the middle east with Hillary, Obama, or Edwards.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
if a child is getting sent to a private school then there is already proof that the kid's parents are getting more involved which is IMO the deal breaker.
And why do students not give a fuck now as opposed to 10 years ago? People as a whole do not change, only societal trends and the ways with which we test the students' knowledge change. I would argue that it is impossible to make a legitimate argument that students today just don't care and that that is the difference between students from decades past, because you simply can't KNOW that. So instead of just deciding that it's because today's kids are a bunch of lazy idiots, how about looking to find some ways to actually make them care? As I said in my origional post, school systems generally tend to ignore cultural trends in how they test and quantify knowledge in students, and you simply can't do that. A 50 year old today might know the capital of some obscure country or be able to recite the precise moment at which Habeus Corpus was enacted, but I bet a 20 year old could better explain the workings of a modern computer. Now, which is more important in a modern society? It's all about how you judge what knowledge is relevent and important.
Now I never said they gave a fuck 10 years ago either. I never said todays kids either. Kids in general are just not putting much in to their education.
Oh noes we are not putting up with our education!! So what usually everyone passes.
I don't understand the basis behind this thread. If you say that students in general are doing ok, maybe you can attribute a few doing poorly to not trying hard enough. If you're saying all or most are doing poorly, that's like a business saying "Our product and marketing is fine, the public just refuses to buy from us." or a hospital saying "Our medicine would work great if all our patients weren't carbon based life forms." People create systems and institutions to make their lives easier, not the other way around. People should not need to adapt just to fit the needs of a system they created.
Maybe it's true that students aren't trying hard enough, whether it's a modern trend or it's always been true. That doesn't mean the institution is working fine, it means that it failed to provide a solution or work around to this problem. If our education system doesn't work on school aged human children, namely those we created it to educate, then it's probably no good to us.
That's just my opinion on that particular argument. Obviously our education system has alot of problems. Whether that means it's fundamentally flawed or not I don't know.
As for private v. public, I do like the idea of a free, competitive market for education, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the public school system altogether. Complain about taxes, say what you want about socialism, if a nation's youth are too busy working in factories or dying of curable diseases to get an education, they're not going to contribute much to the economic health of their nation. You need an educated workforce to prosper, and if half the people in the US suddenly couldn't afford to learn to read, it would be probably be very bad for us. I'm willing to bet almost all the countries with little to no public education are third world.
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Comments
British public schools are no better. Just talked to a 16 year old kid from London who didn't know where Scotland was :>
/emote does the bullcrap dance.I agree with all that. I don't think our public school system can be perfect because of the basic fundamentals of how it works, but those are definately steps that would help improve it.
At the root of it I think the public school system needs competition. Monopolization can never equal excellence. Unfortunately I believe our education promotes socialism at least in college and that's where our teachers come from. Even in regular public schools, kids are walking into a socialistic institution every weekday...perhaps they start thinking that government must provide us with these services otherwise there is no other viable alternative for them. Little do they know if taxes were seriously reduced how the economy would explode, buying power would increase, people would keep far more of their money, private schools would be in demand, private schools would compete, public schools would then have to compete...ect.
What, are you kidding? The fact that kids in this and other countries can get education for free is a great thing! It's not that there's no viable alternative - thousands of people scrap the public school system in favor of prep schools and private schools. The moment you make education providers join a competitive market, poor kids stop getting an education.
Public schools aren't homogeneous! Parents will move places to get to the "best" school they can possibly get. Yes, we have socialized education here in the U.S., but I don't buy for a second that public schools are government brainwashing machines. Public schools need attention, resources and strong community and parental involvement to succeed.
While I agree with most of Draenor's post, I don't know he's referring to regarding "multi-cultural celebratory nonsense". You said yourself that cultural diversity is great, and it raises awareness. What gives?
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
Lots of U.S. Americans dont have schools and therefore unto its because of the Iraq and South Africa, and I really do want world peace.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
Tell me, does 2+2 add up to to something different in California than it does in New York?
Is the date of the Battle of Hastings different for a black kid than it is for a white kid?
If I asked a kid from Florida and a kid from Washington state to find Madagascar on a map can they each point to different spot and still both be correct?
Does the mitochondria have a different funtion in cellular biology depending on whether you are talking to a hispanic kid or an asian kid?
What exactly did you mean? You said that cultural variations play a huge part in what is important and relevant to a young student. But what real bearing does that have on giving them a good education? You can't change the laws of thermodynamics to be more culturally appealing to a particular group.
How do you make the connection that once something joins a competitive network then poor people lose out? That's completely untrue. Obviously tax needs to be lowered drastically. If the Department of Education was abolished the taxpayer would save over 500 Billion dollars (04-05 numbers...probably more now). That would be enough savings that a parent could spend it on private school tuition in a competitive market, not to mention that private schools often have payment plans on top of that...especially in a competitive market.
The public eduction system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens. Why? Because THAT'S what the government wants.
I'll let George Carlin explain it for you....he's a liberal by the way. Let's face it, most people are in debt up to their heads, and dumb as **** when it comes to politics. Two things people should know the most about. You think the government wants to churn out citizens who will question authority and resist with civil disobedience or otherwise (The stuff America was founded on!)? You think they want more people calling their Congressman to demand change? You think our government wants to be pressured and challenged to serve our interests instead of theirs? They won't bite the hand that feeds them, and you're niave to think so.
I've been homeschooled, privately schooled and publically schooled. I learned FAR more about what's going on in the world as a homeschooler (I was more self schooled, however), and private schooler! It was in those times that I truely developed an independent mind regarding real world issues. I didn't even have to burden the taxpayer. There aren't many current affairs classes in public school, perhaps they should have them and let students have a discussion and/or debate about the issues that matter in the real world.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Ok, I have a problem with this.Tell me, does 2+2 add up to to something different in California than it does in New York?
Is the date of the Battle of Hastings different for a black kid than it is for a white kid?
If I asked a kid from Florida and a kid from Washington state to find Madagascar on a map can they each point to different spot and still both be correct?
Does the mitochondria have a different funtion in cellular biology depending on whether you are talking to a hispanic kid or an asian kid?
What exactly did you mean? You said that cultural variations play a huge part in what is important and relevant to a young student. But what real bearing does that have on giving them a good education? You can't change the laws of thermodynamics to be more culturally appealing to a particular group.
Things like math are generally universal, but when it comes to subjects like history and English, the relevence of certain topics, such as which books the kids will be able to relate to, what parts of history have the most influence on THEIR modern lives, etc. then you have a major difference in how a classroom should be taught. And with standardized tests, you also standardize teachers into a mode where they all teach the same things to a wide variety of classrooms and students, and that simply doesn't work.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots.
So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Just look at this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4761294.stm
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots.
So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Just look at this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4761294.stm
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
vary good post,O and did that debate just make u sick or what,and as far as the freedom alot of it was taken away in world war 1 and 2 but we did get it back, thats who we are and thats way things will be,fear not my friend with people like u around we will not lose one thing forever just for a short time,history is on your side. department of education must go NOW.
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
Holy crap! Did I say that public education was free? /checks Oh, that's right, I didn't! I said that people who were bankrupt can send their children to public school for free.
If parents don't want to send their children to a public school, that's their prerogative. The funding of public schools varies by state and county, and I'm not going to sit here discussing the valid methods of taxation for every state and county in the United States, mainly because I don't know enough about them all - or else I would.
Giving back to their country means participating in the work force, the political process, in innovation, in economy, in government, in medicine and in MMO gaming.
Let's see, was i bashing George Carlin? Well, yes, I guess I was - that was wrong. Do I consider witticisms a valid argument? No, I don't. I don't think George Carlin was making anything resembling an argument in the above quote, and thus, defending your point using comedy is meaningless. Thus, it was not that he was a comedian - it was that you quoted a line of indignation, meant for entertainment value, in absence of an argument. What makes me qualified is that I'm trying to make a linear argument, whereas you're repeatedly emphasizing a thesis. Kind of like how Pyrite quotes Bill Maher instead of thinking.
Your next paragraphs equate teenagers' nonchalance with that of the ineptness of the public school system. You have yet to draw a relation. In fact, that particular paragraph affirms the OP's statement about how children themselves, not the public education system, need examination.
I don't know how many articles of the Constitution there are and neither do I care. Whether or not the supremacy clause and the ratification clause are in separate articles is irrelevant (though I'm pretty sure they are). What I do know is how the Constitution is structured, the powers attributed to each branch of government, and the extensive content and ideology behind it, its roots in the European Enlightenment, the events of the Constitutional Convention, its amendments and its changing interpretation across Supreme Courts in American History. I think that's more important than any silly trivia fact about the number of articles in the Constitution. For the record, I can't name all five Simpsons characters... or maybe I can: Marge, Homer, Bart, Maggie....and that girl, damn, so I can't.
You're pissed at the public school system because many Americans side differently than you do in the safety-freedom spectrum? I had plenty of friends in high school who believed in safety over freedom, and plenty more who believed the opposite. The public school system does not produce a homogeneous people. Republicans, as far as I'm aware, generally argue safety first, freedom second - this is pertaining to your witnessing this spectacle at the N.H. debate.
With regards to your last paragraph - teaching discipline is markedly independent of citizenry. Discipline is part of a good character ethic - if, as you said, kids didn't "shut up", teachers wouldn't be able to do their jobs teaching. Teachers are people, too. They want and love to do their jobs, or else they'd find different careers. Flaws in how society deals with badly behaved children is less of the fault of the public school system - its the fault of humanity not knowing how to handle bad behavior.
An argument comparing government indoctrination and disruptive class behavior is appalling.
With regards to your final statement, years and years of mandatory public schooling has advanced this country to a level much, much further than any country I know of without mandatory schooling and a public education system.
www.draftgore.com
Gore '08
I think part of the problem is lack of parent involvement. Simply put a lot of parents don't want to be bothered. They want to drop their kids off at school, pick them up and that's it. It's then up to the school to deal with their kids problems and that's just not right. I don't care if both parents work, if they're tired after work, whatever. Get involved in your childs education for Pete's sake.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan
Ok so I am studying to become a high school science teacher and all of these are problems that I will one day eventually face on a day to day process.
Parental support is a huge issue and unfortunately from certain studies I have seen that the lack of parental support is extreme in the poor/poverish classes. However, I am not saying that other classes don't have the same issues. The issues behind why a parent doesn't support their child while school could be from several reasons 1) working too much to support the family, 2) single parent home, 3) drug/alcohol/etc. addict , 4) don't think they are smart enough to help the child, 5) don't care. Getting involved for them is ultimately in the end the teacher's job (but yet they don't want to be faced with the idea of being involved in the child's education because then they feel like the teacher is telling them how to raise the child...go figure they drop a child off at school for eight hours a day and they don't want the teacher to be influential??)
As a country, we pay extremely low taxes and until a student goes to college, their schooling is free. Other countries especially in Central America and South America their schooling is free all the way through college. However, in those countries taxes are extremely high anywhere from 30%-80%. Most students in those countries do not make to high school. Most are pulled out of school by 6th grade because the family needs the money that theses kids can make to help support the family. So I would rather stay in this country and pay for my college education then be forced to work by the time I was 12.
In schools the problem of attention spans does have to do with the home life. In the past ten years, I have noticed an increasing trend of rude, ignorant, abusive, lack -luster, abnoxious, arrogant children. I am all for parents teaching their children to have self-worth but at what point does it need to include the above items. I hate walking into a classroom and allowing the students to call me by my first name; that shows no sign of respect that I feel a teacher deserves and at what point is a teacher on the same level as a student??
Now for the teachers turn!! There are many problems with students, but just as many problems with teachers. I remember walking into my high school biology class and have an extremely boring teacher, who felt that his word was the Bible. At that age, students should be able to be presented with facts, information, options, etc. to formulate their own ideas, morals and foundations and not be told what to believe in or how they need to be.
A huge problem for students are teachers that lack inspiration and creativeness. Who in the world wants to sit through a class where the teacher just lectures, no powerpoint, no activites, nothing?! Can we say boring!! Sure a lot of the information given is redundant, but it is up to the teachers to create and inspire the students to learn and keep learning!
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Let's see, what's an example of a competitive market where people don't have to pay for its goods? People who make zero, people who are bankrupt in this country can still send their kids to school, and that's a great thing. Their kids will grow with an education, and they'll be able to give back to their country.
Everything you've said after that reflects a distrustful and cynical look of the education system. You're quoting a comedian to defend your point. Are you under the impression that teachers go to brainwashing camp to learn to teach little kids how to be "obedient little citizens"? (a side note: conservatives call this "brainwashing camp" college. I don't give credibility to that viewpoint.)
Your accusation that "the public education system churns out dumbed down, obedient little citizens" is paranoid and baseless. Your summary of your education shows how remarkable you are, but it shows nothing about the public education system. It's a travesty that taxpayers view paying for public education as a burden.
You don't advocate fixing public education - you advocate its abolition.
YOU ARE PAYING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION!!!! IT'S CALLED TAXES!!!!! Oh wait you said that but seem to not be able to connect the dots.
So where is the morality with parents having to pay the taxes for public schools when they are homeschooling their children? That means the parents are spending more time, and money with their children, and yet they get punished.
How are graduates going to exactly "give back" to the country? Are you making a subtle concession that public education really isn't free? Hmm? Because they have to "give back", through taxes, the money that was used to pay for the education (except they give back forever until they die)? God knows money doesn't grow from trees and those teachers get paid somehow. Maybe magic?
Ad hominem.
You're bashing the man because he is a comedian? And what do you do that makes you qualified?
Of course i'm distrustful and cynacle about the public education system, are you living under a rock? Have you seen the world outside? Teenagers only care about getting laid, American idol, clothes, video games, and sports. They don't know where Hell America is on a map, the religion of Iran, who their governor is, how many articles of the Constitution there are...ect.
Just look at this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4761294.stm
Our freedoms are getting trampled on and i'm pissed because Americans fear more about their safety than freedom. They don't understand that giving up your freedom for safety IS WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANT! That's why they have the key word in their name "terror" which means "fear". It's so funny because at the sametime people say the terrorists hate us for our freedom, but they have memory of goldfish because they will then clap when presidential candidates say they will do anything to protect our safety. All this while they were in the "Live Free or Die" state....this is why i'm pissed off at the education system. I saw all of this first hand while at the NH Republican debate the other day. I was sitting in a floor seat about 8 rows back.
Yes the teachers teach the kids to be "obedient little citizens". Would you say they are teaching them to be disobedient little citizens? They certainly aren't teaching kids to have an independent free mind. Kids are taught to sit down, shut up, and OBEY OBEY OBEY. If someone doesn't shut up then EVERYBODY suffers and gets to lose lunch time and has to put their head down on their desk until the almighty teacher says otherwise. Government indoctrination at it's best.
Public education is a burden because it doesn't do any good. I advocate abolishing it.
But It's not the schools keeping them from learning the articles of the constitution and if the schools were "obedient little citizens" they would know every thing you want them to know BECAUSE THEY TEACH THAT ALL AT SCHOOL! I'll repeat it THEY TEACH EVERY THING YOU WANT THEM TO KNOW AT SCHOOL!!!!!!
Did you even go to a public school? The problem is not exactly the curriculum as much as it is the students just not giving a fuck. I went through Government, US History, Geometry, World History, English 1, 2, American Lit. They really do teach people about the constitution and our freedoms. The students just do not care about half of what is taught and are mostly just waiting to either get to lunch or for the end of the day.
And why do students not give a fuck now as opposed to 10 years ago? People as a whole do not change, only societal trends and the ways with which we test the students' knowledge change. I would argue that it is impossible to make a legitimate argument that students today just don't care and that that is the difference between students from decades past, because you simply can't KNOW that. So instead of just deciding that it's because today's kids are a bunch of lazy idiots, how about looking to find some ways to actually make them care? As I said in my origional post, school systems generally tend to ignore cultural trends in how they test and quantify knowledge in students, and you simply can't do that. A 50 year old today might know the capital of some obscure country or be able to recite the precise moment at which Habeus Corpus was enacted, but I bet a 20 year old could better explain the workings of a modern computer. Now, which is more important in a modern society? It's all about how you judge what knowledge is relevent and important.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Now I never said they gave a fuck 10 years ago either. I never said todays kids either. Kids in general are just not putting much in to their education.
I guess you believe education is merely a one size fits all social institution? There is no way that can be true. Kids come from all walks of life and learn in all different types of ways. Public education treat kids like they're clones. The beauty of of private schools is that they serve the student instead of the student serving the school (doing well on cookie cutter standardized tests so the school gets funding is stupid). Private schools come in all different shapes and sizes and so it's easy to find one that will be suitable. They cost money, but in a healthy economy it doesn't matter, jacking up taxes kills the economy and so you and I have to depend on subpar government monopolized programs just to get by.
It doesn't matter how much money govt pumps into the public school system; if the competition isn't there then there is no incentive to teach well to every student. Once you become a paying customer for education only then does the school start treating you like a valued customer because you ARE a VALUED customer becuase you have VALUE. So if students start misbehaving or doing poorly then there WILL be a solution found or else they lose the customer.
Knowing how many articles of the Constitution there are just means you probably have studied it thoroughly...it's 7 by the way. Did you know the Constitution delegates no power to the Federal government to facilitate public education? That means they can't get involved. That's why I want to abolish the Dept of Education....at least that's one reason.
Kids are disruptive because one size does not fit all in education. Public school teachers are also involved in the worst union that hurts kids and serves the teachers. Teachers can be dumb as nails, but to fire him/her you have to jump through a million hoops.
Since private schooled children outperform public schooled children. Maybe the public schools are just taking the credit for advancing us?
Offtopic:
The Democrats aren't anymore anti-premptive war on countries that can't do us harm (therefore they are concerned with safety over freedom). The reason is they are involved in the Isreal lobby (AIPAC) too, among others and so you better believe it when I tell you that we will still be stuck in the middle east with Hillary, Obama, or Edwards.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
if a child is getting sent to a private school then there is already proof that the kid's parents are getting more involved which is IMO the deal breaker.
Now I never said they gave a fuck 10 years ago either. I never said todays kids either. Kids in general are just not putting much in to their education.
Oh noes we are not putting up with our education!! So what usually everyone passes.
I don't understand the basis behind this thread. If you say that students in general are doing ok, maybe you can attribute a few doing poorly to not trying hard enough. If you're saying all or most are doing poorly, that's like a business saying "Our product and marketing is fine, the public just refuses to buy from us." or a hospital saying "Our medicine would work great if all our patients weren't carbon based life forms." People create systems and institutions to make their lives easier, not the other way around. People should not need to adapt just to fit the needs of a system they created.
Maybe it's true that students aren't trying hard enough, whether it's a modern trend or it's always been true. That doesn't mean the institution is working fine, it means that it failed to provide a solution or work around to this problem. If our education system doesn't work on school aged human children, namely those we created it to educate, then it's probably no good to us.
That's just my opinion on that particular argument. Obviously our education system has alot of problems. Whether that means it's fundamentally flawed or not I don't know.
As for private v. public, I do like the idea of a free, competitive market for education, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the public school system altogether. Complain about taxes, say what you want about socialism, if a nation's youth are too busy working in factories or dying of curable diseases to get an education, they're not going to contribute much to the economic health of their nation. You need an educated workforce to prosper, and if half the people in the US suddenly couldn't afford to learn to read, it would be probably be very bad for us. I'm willing to bet almost all the countries with little to no public education are third world.
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