Well, judging from the article it looks like Bioware are designing a solo-playable, quest based, casual mmo. Thanks but if thats the case I'll pass. My 30 days in LOTRO was all I could take of that kind of dumbed down gameplay. But then Im not the casual mass market that they are targetting for the big dollars, so they wont miss me anyway. Best of luck getting the casual masses into your game.
On the bright side he mentions that all mmo's should have pvp integrated from the start, which gets a big thumbs up from me. In my opinion, PVP based objectives and pvp-based character development after reaching the highest level is the best way to keep people feeling like they are continuing to make personal progress on their toon. And personal toon development is what keeps people addicted. Another direction to go is end-game raid grinding (ala WoW), but personally Ive never enjoyed that nearly as much as well done pvp.
Explain to me how exactly this guy is an expert, he has never made a MMO?
So while he might have ideas, they are certainly unproven ones. I wish him luck, but from bioware quotes lately, I think they are headed in the wrong direction already.
You have to look at the people who are playing MMO's these days. The majority of them.
There is a cadre of hardcore 15 hr a day players...but they are the vast minority.
I use to have that kind of time to play, but don't anymore. Many gamers are in the same boat. We aren't all so lifeless we have that much time to devote to games, some of us have families and have to work.
The majority want something more casual, something where you can play for a couple hours and actually accomplish something other than waiting for a 200 man raid to form, or spamming "lfg" for two hours.
so, yes, the days of the hardcore game is probably going to go away for the most part. There just isn't really enough market for it these days.
Lots of casual players group... Yes, there is a problem in time consumption but this is to do with the design of it. Long instances, WoW doesn't help. Long lfg? A level-based system doesn't help.
Well for one I think the biggest mistake is everyone calling every game out there a WoW clone because in all truthfulness none of them are a WoW clone otherwise they would all be a huge success which we all know they arent.
Maybe if people would actually look at what a game brings to the table instead of trying to compare the UI or other things to WoW and just sit down and play the damn game they might actually enjoy something.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there, 80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters. Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior, and he will bring the others home. -Heraclitus 500BC
Agree, disagree... The man is right on all accounts. Not how to make a game for the MMO players,. but to make an MMO for normal everyday people. MMO players will just need to step aside and wait for some odd company to not care about money and instead care about complexity and mature entertainment for the small percetage with a brain.
And the name deletion works fine.... City of Heroes does it perfectly, your character is there, your levels is there, but if you havent played it for X months, your name is gone to someone that is actually active.
I did state that City of Heroes was an exception, due to the nature of super hero names and the high churn rate. But in other mmo's? No way. You're saying that someone who played for say 2 years and decides to take a few months off for whatever reason should be left with the choice of losing their name to a newbie or paying 15 bucks a month to reserve it? Get real.
Some interesting points there and some depressing points.
Keeping system specs low is kind of a tough one to argue against. Because, really, a good MMO shouldnt need insane graphics. I think most of us would be on board for an MMO with dated graphics as long as it was a really really good MMO. I mean, I always hated WOW graphics, but that was more about the art style than the quality.
I dont think any of us will argue against quality. Solid, bug free launches should be more common.
Solo play, kind of a tough one. I dont like being forced to group or having to be on for 4 hours at a time to get anything done. But, there needs to be something to encourage grouping and some opportunities for fun group experiences. Do we need to go back to camping mob spawns with a group for 6 hours at a time? I sure as h3ll hope not.
"If anything, I think people should make games that level faster than WoW -- that have the right content to hold up."
That I can completely agree with. At least, it sounds like hes hinting at what many of us have been saying. The game shouldnt be focued on leveling, or "the grind". You should have a flat or very fast leveling curve that gets you into the REAL content fairly quickly. Why add long, slow leveling curves that just divide the player base? I mean, if people are gonna argue that solo play works against player interaction (which is valid) then why would they, on the other hand, support long level curves, which have a MUCH bigger impact on player interaction?
I cant agree with "directing" the experience. A little, yes, but not to the extent hes talking about. Yea, its does seem like MMOs are going in that direction, but I dont get it. If you have a linear MMO its always gonna be just a half a$$ed version of a single player rpg, only with lesser graphics and more cluncky gameplay that requires little to no skill. I just really dont get this one.
I guess, from their point of view, the big money is with the ultra casual crowd. You cant really argue with that. If the only way for them to turn a profit is by appealing to new gamers and churning out shallow, easy mode games, then I guess thats all we're gonna see. But, what happens when the "new gamer" well dries up? Its gonna happen eventually. The WOW crowd will have moved on and there wont be nearly as many new players comming into the genre, so whos gonna be buying all the new WOW clones?
there are other lessons walton failed to grasp. 1) "Levelling time" is not relevent to how long youll play a mmo. Wow has the easiest levelling time of any mmo. personally i think that levelling needs to be dismantled altogether. The worst thing it does is prevent players from compensating for gear with skill, and segregate players based on how long they have played. Its an unnatural process for a game based on social interaction. cant i just be a great warrior? what does being a great warrior have to do with 5 million experience points? nothing. developers cant seem to learn this, because they are stuck in D&D land.
You wrong here. You can only speak for what you yourself like. You don't speak for the community. And on that specific basis, he didn't fail, you just did.
I think the other lessson to be learned is how out of touch with the industry vet players are at mmorpg.com. Just because you are passionate about something doesn't mean it's a great thing. Learning to step back and evalutate from outside your bias is the next level of applying knowledge and gaining understanding.
Remali, you missed the point. There should be better end game content than "faction/raid" grinding. Preferably, content with some kind of substance to it. So, if you have this content, then you dont need the quest/mob grind. You get your character up to speed fairly quick, then you jump into the end game, which would actually be THE game.
Remali, you missed the point. There should be better end game content than "faction/raid" grinding. Preferably, content with some kind of substance to it. So, if you have this content, then you dont need the quest/mob grind. You get your character up to speed fairly quick, then you jump into the end game, which would actually be THE game.
I disagree with you strongly here. As far as I am concerned, the "leveling" in a game should never stop. The moment that I feel that I can no longer progress my character is when I stop playing.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Thats the problem with leveling though, its not really progression. Youre basically just killing the same mobs in different zones and nothing ever really changes. Your character may gain some bigger stat numbers and some better gear, but he's still just another cookie cutter class/level guy in a static world. But, as long as theres always a carrot hanging just out of reach, it some how makes things interesting?
Games like Conan at least are trying stuff that is relatively new, games like warhammer tabula rasa etc will flop they are basically wow clones again. Conan will probably flop as well, due to the rating, and system requirements as the most obvious things that turn it into a niche game.
Actualy, both AoC and WAR have features they are bringing to the table. AoC has siege warfare and a new combat interface; WAR has a new RvR system wiith capitol city sieges and public quests.
I don't know why AoC and WAR fanbois always have to dish each others game, they both have potential and hopefully both of them will fulfill that potential. It will be a much better world for players if they do.
I'm neither i think both games don't look particularly good and age of conan just looks like another vangaurd, maybe slightly more polished with a community thats going to be worse than wows. RVR has been done before, hardly innovative, and the ui I'm sure is in some previous game, its definitely not the first time i have seen a ui like theirs other than that the game is basically wow with slightly better graphics, gameplay wise they are almost identical.
Age of conan is being different, apart from maybe the 20 level tutorial thats single player, i don't see anything innovative about their game, but at least they aren't blatantly copying world of warcraft in the design department, and yes i know warhammer came before warcraft but this is the mmo we are talking about not the IP.
Warhammer will be wows pvp and pve system, but instead of focusing on pve endgame they will focus on the pvp aspect, it will still be the same boring spawn, kill, die, spawn kill die crap you have in wow with the an rvr system thats basically battlegrounds on a larger scale.
age of conan looked like it was going to be good, it still might be, but right now it doesn't even look like it will be playable. and even if it does the gimmics they are adding will attract some seriously immature people.
I doubt either of the 2 games will make any difference to the stagnant market, the only real hope i have in mmos is the 3 i mentioned in my last post, POTBS, AION, and COS. they look like they will be innovative, hopefully they will be successful so that devs see you can be different and successful instead of copy wow non stop.
All these WoW clones are not gonna make money, mainly because they don't bring anything new that WoW doesn't have. Why should people leave the original and go play a clone? Especially when the clones keep system specs low....
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
The big shocker in my oppinion is that one other game really tried to implement the "lessons" and did it quite good also. It is Turbines LOTRO. And we all see how this turned out. It is a good game, and if WOW never existed , it would probably be very succesful.
But the truth is that nobody needs another WOW. I hope Bioware are not about to make the biggest mistake they could , and stamp yet another cloning attempt. Simply, to expect another WOW like succes to happen is useless. The market is allready tapped , and if anything is likely
to happen is that WOW players will slowly leave for various games. Most probably to free games because we are going to see many
of such to come ( Agency , Guild Wars 2, or even Hellgate London ) - However the real MMO afectionados that are likely to play subscription games - will now look for deeper and more meaningful experience that they missed in wow, and they will also skip YAWOWC (yet another wow clone) I have high hopes for BioWare MMO , and i hope they are not falling into above mentioned trap... Lets see
I disagree with you Lobotomist. I think that you may have a different definition of what a WoW clone is than I or many people do. So please explain what you feel is a WoW clone.
I don't think LoTRO was a WoW clone at all. I think it took some of those lessons and applied them to their game, however, the reasons that LoTRO didn't do as well as expected is because of their own design decisions. LoTRO is not a WoW clone. WoW offers the battlegrounds, world PvP (soon sieges), and arena PvP with tangible rewards for participating. LoTRO does not, and it drove a lot of the casual PvPers a way. LoTRO also made the game very one dimentional, meaning they only excel at story-line quests. In fact, they are better than WoW in the department of story directed content. But WoW excels overall because they offer many different types of quests. Including solo, group (outside), group (instanced, and raiding content. Again, LoTRO is not a WoW clone. Plus, Turbine has a bad track record.
If Bioware applies these lessons they talk about, they will be majorly successful. This doens't mean the game will be another WoW, just that it will be just as accessible, fun for the majority of gamers, and a good quality product like WoW.
Hell, I do agree in the sense that we don't need another Wow. We don't need another fantasy game where you choose between x amount of classes and races, progress by questing, and gain abilities as you level. We don't need another fantasy MMORPG that leads a class down a predetermined path for their particular class, making them the same as others. We don't need another fantasy MMORPG that requires you to raid a lot for gear. That I agree with and any company that tries to inact these lessons will fail compared to Wow if they do so.
What we do need is a Sci-Fi game that applies these lessons. Even if those lessons are implemented the same way as Wow did. Why? Because players need and want a change from fantasy style play. Not necessarily a change from class based, quest leveling/raiding play.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
there are other lessons walton failed to grasp. 1) "Levelling time" is not relevent to how long youll play a mmo. Wow has the easiest levelling time of any mmo. personally i think that levelling needs to be dismantled altogether. The worst thing it does is prevent players from compensating for gear with skill, and segregate players based on how long they have played. Its an unnatural process for a game based on social interaction. cant i just be a great warrior? what does being a great warrior have to do with 5 million experience points? nothing. developers cant seem to learn this, because they are stuck in D&D land.
Leveling is a staple in the RPG genre. It is no different for the MMORPG genre. Even UO and SWG made you level, just in a different way. The type of games you are referring to that require actual player skill are called FPS's. Gear doesn't matter in those games and neither does experience points. Only thing that matters is how good you are, which comes from practice. You should look into some MMOFPS's, however, they don't really exist since you can get what a MMOFPS would offer in a Co-OP single-player FPS game.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Thats the problem with leveling though, its not really progression. Youre basically just killing the same mobs in different zones and nothing ever really changes. Your character may gain some bigger stat numbers and some better gear, but he's still just another cookie cutter class/level guy in a static world. But, as long as theres always a carrot hanging just out of reach, it some how makes things interesting?
Just like there should be more than "faction/grind" at endgame, there should be more to leveling than the "same old, same ole." If any part of a game is mindnumbingly repetative, it is going to be boring. The fact that you are bored with the leveling process is not a failure of the leveling system, but instead it is a failure of a specific game.
In RPGs, it is the skill of the avatar (not the player) that is important. Leveling, gaining experience, gaining alternative advancement points, gaining skill points, etc. is just a way of showing that the avatar is getting better over time. When the avatar can get not better over time and the only way to get more powerful is to get better gear, then the game starts to stagnate.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Leveling just for the sake of leveling is...well, pretty pointless. Character progression should be defined more by your characters relationship with the game world, not just by numbers on a stat sheet. Starting out as a prospector and working your way up to one of the most successful mining operations on the server is progression. Starting out as a complete pvp noob and working your way up to guild leader of one of the largest pvp guilds is progression. These may not be "avatar" progression, but does it really matter? If we're going to put everything on our avatars, then we might as well just have an auto-play mode built. Well, I guess most MMOs are half way there already...
you could make a new ground breaking game with great innovative features, but you won't get a huge portion of the WoW players to switch over because your game isn't based on Warcraft.
IP matters, and I can't think of any other IP out there that can match Warcraft. What I mean by this is, I'm sure there are lots of IPs out there with MORE fans than Warcraft, but none of them will have anywhere near the amount of fans who have gaming able computers as Warcraft does.
there are other lessons walton failed to grasp. 1) "Levelling time" is not relevent to how long youll play a mmo. Wow has the easiest levelling time of any mmo. personally i think that levelling needs to be dismantled altogether. The worst thing it does is prevent players from compensating for gear with skill, and segregate players based on how long they have played. Its an unnatural process for a game based on social interaction. cant i just be a great warrior? what does being a great warrior have to do with 5 million experience points? nothing. developers cant seem to learn this, because they are stuck in D&D land.
Leveling is a staple in the RPG genre. It is no different for the MMORPG genre. Even UO and SWG made you level, just in a different way. The type of games you are referring to that require actual player skill are called FPS's. Gear doesn't matter in those games and neither does experience points. Only thing that matters is how good you are, which comes from practice. You should look into some MMOFPS's, however, they don't really exist since you can get what a MMOFPS would offer in a Co-OP single-player FPS game.
heres where the mistake is made imo. MMo's are persisitant worlds. They are not linear by their very nature. The levelling systems attempt to convert the persistance aspect into a linear adventure. developers hang themselves content wise because once youve past the level, the content is now useless. You end up with large linear worlds full of useless content 1-2 months after release.
Imagine in wow you started at level 60, and the entire worlds content was for level 60's..... it can be done.
now imagine that instead of using levels and skill advancement and you just get rid of it. In its place you offer the following:
1) heavily modifyable skills and abilities.
2) heavily modifyable equipment.
you still need to go out and get all those skills and abilities as well as equipment.. but instead of levelling.. we use the manipulation of every skill, ability and peice of equipment as the source of customization. Theres no number or skill increases, there is only manipulation of every skill, ability and equipment item you can collect.
Its makes me sad to read that post by Bioware, really sad...They will be making a mundane game like WoW in the belives they can do as good as them, but I do not think they will..
And one fundamental flaw in these discussions is the meaning of harcore versus casual gamers etc, Yes todays MMO's needs solo play and to be player friendly, and still make you feel useful even thou you only have 1-2 hours to play..I agree to this, it makes sence..
But what I do not agree with is that we need another NO BRAINS NEEDED game with hardly no AI and NO CHALLANGES, It can be fast paced and fast levvelled if they so like, but please give us challange..Most MMO's out there post no real challanges, and with challanges I'm not meaning a steep level curve or harch death penaltis..
Time is of the essence, you wan't fun, fun is in the challange not time, and to be honest WoW, EQ2, LOTRO post very little challange, and when there is a challange players often tries to bypass these things in whatever way possible..
As an example: In WoW you can have a Lvl 70 taggle along at most lowbie quests just to make sure you make the quest...Why is this ?
Because of ITEMS, because that players constantly belive that if they have THAT item they will ROCK even more, the items has become the whole reason most people play, or it seems like that anyway..Sure, make the games casual friendly, but not stupidly easy, not even in the start should they be "so easy"..
LOTRO is a good exampel of this, it almost had me quit directly because it was so easy it wasn't fun for the first 10-20 levels, sure there is nice challanges in LOTRO but these are often dissmissed in one way or another...
Hmm didn't really say much in his lecture and dont think we really know anything specific what bioware is up to for its MMO. He did harp on about WoW too much for my liking and acted like nothing existed pre WoW, nor was there any hint of mixing game genres. Obviously bioware is after the large under 16 market of uber pnwzor grinding contentless crap. Also its so stupidly obvious to say all these things post WoW that it doesn't really say bioware or this guy, have any innovative ideas, though I doubt they'd talk about in an open forum, if they do.
Even if bioware think that those points can just come out with a WoW, thus stealing way WoW's core audience, they may be in for a surprise. WoW lovers and da haterz both agree why play a WoW clone? (And Im afriad I find LOTRO very wow like... WAR probably is going to me more so).
The final points that bothered me most was saying players dont like choice. Actually I would rather like choices of factions and affliations and permanent lasting actions, I'd also like the chances to run the risk of betraying factions. I'll roll another toon if I have a major problem ( or run several with different outlooks), though as long as I get time to weigh up the conequences, I would be delighted. If I get another quest series like go kill X of this and then I'll give you Y or that... (i.e it doesnt really matter) I will turn the game off. I did with LOTRO, I will do it with any other fantasy MMO that doesn't write good narratives. I beleive the "natural" feel fo WoW wont be recreated as people have wisened up (except the kiddie boppers.. who I suspect will attack anything new and still be wow kids regardless).
Overall the final points hinted to me that the bioware MMO is not going to appeal to myself but like above , I doubt they'd talk about any real plans. But we dont know any specifics I guess. I wonder what biowares first effort will be like ?
As much as I love WoW, there's nothing that appeals less to me than another game with similar mechanics. WoW is already the best at what it does. Blizzard won. If a company wants to sell me a MMORPG, it needs to be fundamentally different, or offer significant improvements for me to even consider it.
Blizzard games are very difficult to improve upon. It's not impossible, and has been done, it's just doesn't happen that often. And so far, has not yet happened in the MMO genre, but some day will of course. Though going by recent efforts, it's more likely that the next *good* MMO will come from Blizzard again
Though I expect WAR, AoC, and other efforts to be interesting at least.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
One thing that's very important that he missed is gameplay mechanics. I don't care how much content you provide, nobody will play unless the classes are fun to play.
I never saw anything like the rogue's combo system in WoW in any other MMO. It's unlike anything in Everquest and it's fun. Some classes take longer than others to develop into a character that's fun to play but that's why they put levels in RPGs.
EQ2 has more content than you can shake a stick at and has a very nice presentation but the classes are boring as hell to play. It's the opposite of addictive and I really wanted to like that game.
Comments
Well, judging from the article it looks like Bioware are designing a solo-playable, quest based, casual mmo. Thanks but if thats the case I'll pass. My 30 days in LOTRO was all I could take of that kind of dumbed down gameplay. But then Im not the casual mass market that they are targetting for the big dollars, so they wont miss me anyway. Best of luck getting the casual masses into your game.
On the bright side he mentions that all mmo's should have pvp integrated from the start, which gets a big thumbs up from me. In my opinion, PVP based objectives and pvp-based character development after reaching the highest level is the best way to keep people feeling like they are continuing to make personal progress on their toon. And personal toon development is what keeps people addicted. Another direction to go is end-game raid grinding (ala WoW), but personally Ive never enjoyed that nearly as much as well done pvp.
Explain to me how exactly this guy is an expert, he has never made a MMO?
So while he might have ideas, they are certainly unproven ones. I wish him luck, but from bioware quotes lately, I think they are headed in the wrong direction already.
Lots of casual players group... Yes, there is a problem in time consumption but this is to do with the design of it. Long instances, WoW doesn't help. Long lfg? A level-based system doesn't help.
Well for one I think the biggest mistake is everyone calling every game out there a WoW clone because in all truthfulness none of them are a WoW clone otherwise they would all be a huge success which we all know they arent.
Maybe if people would actually look at what a game brings to the table instead of trying to compare the UI or other things to WoW and just sit down and play the damn game they might actually enjoy something.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
I did state that City of Heroes was an exception, due to the nature of super hero names and the high churn rate. But in other mmo's? No way. You're saying that someone who played for say 2 years and decides to take a few months off for whatever reason should be left with the choice of losing their name to a newbie or paying 15 bucks a month to reserve it? Get real.
Some interesting points there and some depressing points.
Keeping system specs low is kind of a tough one to argue against. Because, really, a good MMO shouldnt need insane graphics. I think most of us would be on board for an MMO with dated graphics as long as it was a really really good MMO. I mean, I always hated WOW graphics, but that was more about the art style than the quality.
I dont think any of us will argue against quality. Solid, bug free launches should be more common.
Solo play, kind of a tough one. I dont like being forced to group or having to be on for 4 hours at a time to get anything done. But, there needs to be something to encourage grouping and some opportunities for fun group experiences. Do we need to go back to camping mob spawns with a group for 6 hours at a time? I sure as h3ll hope not.
"If anything, I think people should make games that level faster than WoW -- that have the right content to hold up."
That I can completely agree with. At least, it sounds like hes hinting at what many of us have been saying. The game shouldnt be focued on leveling, or "the grind". You should have a flat or very fast leveling curve that gets you into the REAL content fairly quickly. Why add long, slow leveling curves that just divide the player base? I mean, if people are gonna argue that solo play works against player interaction (which is valid) then why would they, on the other hand, support long level curves, which have a MUCH bigger impact on player interaction?
I cant agree with "directing" the experience. A little, yes, but not to the extent hes talking about. Yea, its does seem like MMOs are going in that direction, but I dont get it. If you have a linear MMO its always gonna be just a half a$$ed version of a single player rpg, only with lesser graphics and more cluncky gameplay that requires little to no skill. I just really dont get this one.
I guess, from their point of view, the big money is with the ultra casual crowd. You cant really argue with that. If the only way for them to turn a profit is by appealing to new gamers and churning out shallow, easy mode games, then I guess thats all we're gonna see. But, what happens when the "new gamer" well dries up? Its gonna happen eventually. The WOW crowd will have moved on and there wont be nearly as many new players comming into the genre, so whos gonna be buying all the new WOW clones?
I think the other lessson to be learned is how out of touch with the industry vet players are at mmorpg.com. Just because you are passionate about something doesn't mean it's a great thing. Learning to step back and evalutate from outside your bias is the next level of applying knowledge and gaining understanding.
Remali, you missed the point. There should be better end game content than "faction/raid" grinding. Preferably, content with some kind of substance to it. So, if you have this content, then you dont need the quest/mob grind. You get your character up to speed fairly quick, then you jump into the end game, which would actually be THE game.
I disagree with you strongly here. As far as I am concerned, the "leveling" in a game should never stop. The moment that I feel that I can no longer progress my character is when I stop playing.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Thats the problem with leveling though, its not really progression. Youre basically just killing the same mobs in different zones and nothing ever really changes. Your character may gain some bigger stat numbers and some better gear, but he's still just another cookie cutter class/level guy in a static world. But, as long as theres always a carrot hanging just out of reach, it some how makes things interesting?
Actualy, both AoC and WAR have features they are bringing to the table. AoC has siege warfare and a new combat interface; WAR has a new RvR system wiith capitol city sieges and public quests.I don't know why AoC and WAR fanbois always have to dish each others game, they both have potential and hopefully both of them will fulfill that potential. It will be a much better world for players if they do.
I'm neither i think both games don't look particularly good and age of conan just looks like another vangaurd, maybe slightly more polished with a community thats going to be worse than wows. RVR has been done before, hardly innovative, and the ui I'm sure is in some previous game, its definitely not the first time i have seen a ui like theirs other than that the game is basically wow with slightly better graphics, gameplay wise they are almost identical.
Age of conan is being different, apart from maybe the 20 level tutorial thats single player, i don't see anything innovative about their game, but at least they aren't blatantly copying world of warcraft in the design department, and yes i know warhammer came before warcraft but this is the mmo we are talking about not the IP.
Warhammer will be wows pvp and pve system, but instead of focusing on pve endgame they will focus on the pvp aspect, it will still be the same boring spawn, kill, die, spawn kill die crap you have in wow with the an rvr system thats basically battlegrounds on a larger scale.
age of conan looked like it was going to be good, it still might be, but right now it doesn't even look like it will be playable. and even if it does the gimmics they are adding will attract some seriously immature people.
I doubt either of the 2 games will make any difference to the stagnant market, the only real hope i have in mmos is the 3 i mentioned in my last post, POTBS, AION, and COS. they look like they will be innovative, hopefully they will be successful so that devs see you can be different and successful instead of copy wow non stop.
All these WoW clones are not gonna make money, mainly because they don't bring anything new that WoW doesn't have. Why should people leave the original and go play a clone? Especially when the clones keep system specs low....
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I disagree with you Lobotomist. I think that you may have a different definition of what a WoW clone is than I or many people do. So please explain what you feel is a WoW clone.
I don't think LoTRO was a WoW clone at all. I think it took some of those lessons and applied them to their game, however, the reasons that LoTRO didn't do as well as expected is because of their own design decisions. LoTRO is not a WoW clone. WoW offers the battlegrounds, world PvP (soon sieges), and arena PvP with tangible rewards for participating. LoTRO does not, and it drove a lot of the casual PvPers a way. LoTRO also made the game very one dimentional, meaning they only excel at story-line quests. In fact, they are better than WoW in the department of story directed content. But WoW excels overall because they offer many different types of quests. Including solo, group (outside), group (instanced, and raiding content. Again, LoTRO is not a WoW clone. Plus, Turbine has a bad track record.
If Bioware applies these lessons they talk about, they will be majorly successful. This doens't mean the game will be another WoW, just that it will be just as accessible, fun for the majority of gamers, and a good quality product like WoW.
Hell, I do agree in the sense that we don't need another Wow. We don't need another fantasy game where you choose between x amount of classes and races, progress by questing, and gain abilities as you level. We don't need another fantasy MMORPG that leads a class down a predetermined path for their particular class, making them the same as others. We don't need another fantasy MMORPG that requires you to raid a lot for gear. That I agree with and any company that tries to inact these lessons will fail compared to Wow if they do so.
What we do need is a Sci-Fi game that applies these lessons. Even if those lessons are implemented the same way as Wow did. Why? Because players need and want a change from fantasy style play. Not necessarily a change from class based, quest leveling/raiding play.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Leveling is a staple in the RPG genre. It is no different for the MMORPG genre. Even UO and SWG made you level, just in a different way. The type of games you are referring to that require actual player skill are called FPS's. Gear doesn't matter in those games and neither does experience points. Only thing that matters is how good you are, which comes from practice. You should look into some MMOFPS's, however, they don't really exist since you can get what a MMOFPS would offer in a Co-OP single-player FPS game.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
In RPGs, it is the skill of the avatar (not the player) that is important. Leveling, gaining experience, gaining alternative advancement points, gaining skill points, etc. is just a way of showing that the avatar is getting better over time. When the avatar can get not better over time and the only way to get more powerful is to get better gear, then the game starts to stagnate.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Leveling just for the sake of leveling is...well, pretty pointless. Character progression should be defined more by your characters relationship with the game world, not just by numbers on a stat sheet. Starting out as a prospector and working your way up to one of the most successful mining operations on the server is progression. Starting out as a complete pvp noob and working your way up to guild leader of one of the largest pvp guilds is progression. These may not be "avatar" progression, but does it really matter? If we're going to put everything on our avatars, then we might as well just have an auto-play mode built. Well, I guess most MMOs are half way there already...
you could make a new ground breaking game with great innovative features, but you won't get a huge portion of the WoW players to switch over because your game isn't based on Warcraft.
IP matters, and I can't think of any other IP out there that can match Warcraft. What I mean by this is, I'm sure there are lots of IPs out there with MORE fans than Warcraft, but none of them will have anywhere near the amount of fans who have gaming able computers as Warcraft does.
Leveling is a staple in the RPG genre. It is no different for the MMORPG genre. Even UO and SWG made you level, just in a different way. The type of games you are referring to that require actual player skill are called FPS's. Gear doesn't matter in those games and neither does experience points. Only thing that matters is how good you are, which comes from practice. You should look into some MMOFPS's, however, they don't really exist since you can get what a MMOFPS would offer in a Co-OP single-player FPS game.
heres where the mistake is made imo. MMo's are persisitant worlds. They are not linear by their very nature. The levelling systems attempt to convert the persistance aspect into a linear adventure. developers hang themselves content wise because once youve past the level, the content is now useless. You end up with large linear worlds full of useless content 1-2 months after release.Imagine in wow you started at level 60, and the entire worlds content was for level 60's..... it can be done.
now imagine that instead of using levels and skill advancement and you just get rid of it. In its place you offer the following:
1) heavily modifyable skills and abilities.
2) heavily modifyable equipment.
you still need to go out and get all those skills and abilities as well as equipment.. but instead of levelling.. we use the manipulation of every skill, ability and peice of equipment as the source of customization. Theres no number or skill increases, there is only manipulation of every skill, ability and equipment item you can collect.
Its makes me sad to read that post by Bioware, really sad...They will be making a mundane game like WoW in the belives they can do as good as them, but I do not think they will..
And one fundamental flaw in these discussions is the meaning of harcore versus casual gamers etc, Yes todays MMO's needs solo play and to be player friendly, and still make you feel useful even thou you only have 1-2 hours to play..I agree to this, it makes sence..
But what I do not agree with is that we need another NO BRAINS NEEDED game with hardly no AI and NO CHALLANGES, It can be fast paced and fast levvelled if they so like, but please give us challange..Most MMO's out there post no real challanges, and with challanges I'm not meaning a steep level curve or harch death penaltis..
Time is of the essence, you wan't fun, fun is in the challange not time, and to be honest WoW, EQ2, LOTRO post very little challange, and when there is a challange players often tries to bypass these things in whatever way possible..
As an example: In WoW you can have a Lvl 70 taggle along at most lowbie quests just to make sure you make the quest...Why is this ?
Because of ITEMS, because that players constantly belive that if they have THAT item they will ROCK even more, the items has become the whole reason most people play, or it seems like that anyway..Sure, make the games casual friendly, but not stupidly easy, not even in the start should they be "so easy"..
LOTRO is a good exampel of this, it almost had me quit directly because it was so easy it wasn't fun for the first 10-20 levels, sure there is nice challanges in LOTRO but these are often dissmissed in one way or another...
PLEASE,...DO NOT MAKE ANOTHER WOW..
/junker
Hmm didn't really say much in his lecture and dont think we really know anything specific what bioware is up to for its MMO. He did harp on about WoW too much for my liking and acted like nothing existed pre WoW, nor was there any hint of mixing game genres. Obviously bioware is after the large under 16 market of uber pnwzor grinding contentless crap. Also its so stupidly obvious to say all these things post WoW that it doesn't really say bioware or this guy, have any innovative ideas, though I doubt they'd talk about in an open forum, if they do.
Even if bioware think that those points can just come out with a WoW, thus stealing way WoW's core audience, they may be in for a surprise. WoW lovers and da haterz both agree why play a WoW clone? (And Im afriad I find LOTRO very wow like... WAR probably is going to me more so).
The final points that bothered me most was saying players dont like choice. Actually I would rather like choices of factions and affliations and permanent lasting actions, I'd also like the chances to run the risk of betraying factions. I'll roll another toon if I have a major problem ( or run several with different outlooks), though as long as I get time to weigh up the conequences, I would be delighted. If I get another quest series like go kill X of this and then I'll give you Y or that... (i.e it doesnt really matter) I will turn the game off. I did with LOTRO, I will do it with any other fantasy MMO that doesn't write good narratives. I beleive the "natural" feel fo WoW wont be recreated as people have wisened up (except the kiddie boppers.. who I suspect will attack anything new and still be wow kids regardless).
Overall the final points hinted to me that the bioware MMO is not going to appeal to myself but like above , I doubt they'd talk about any real plans. But we dont know any specifics I guess. I wonder what biowares first effort will be like ?
Bioware's first efforts will be a WoW clone that no one will play.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
As much as I love WoW, there's nothing that appeals less to me than another game with similar mechanics. WoW is already the best at what it does. Blizzard won. If a company wants to sell me a MMORPG, it needs to be fundamentally different, or offer significant improvements for me to even consider it.
Blizzard games are very difficult to improve upon. It's not impossible, and has been done, it's just doesn't happen that often. And so far, has not yet happened in the MMO genre, but some day will of course. Though going by recent efforts, it's more likely that the next *good* MMO will come from Blizzard again
Though I expect WAR, AoC, and other efforts to be interesting at least.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Obviously you didnt read the whole thing.
Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community
Correcting people since birth.
One thing that's very important that he missed is gameplay mechanics. I don't care how much content you provide, nobody will play unless the classes are fun to play.
I never saw anything like the rogue's combo system in WoW in any other MMO. It's unlike anything in Everquest and it's fun. Some classes take longer than others to develop into a character that's fun to play but that's why they put levels in RPGs.
EQ2 has more content than you can shake a stick at and has a very nice presentation but the classes are boring as hell to play. It's the opposite of addictive and I really wanted to like that game.
My youtube MMO gaming channel