1. The "hardcore" MMO players are going to have to learn they are the minority. If an MMO aimed solely at the hardcore market were to be released it would be the one that flops horribly not the WoW clone.
2. The only MMO released in the past 3 years to have any modicum of success is LotRO, a WoW clone. The only reason it didn't have more success that what it has had is because they didn't copy WoW enough. If LotRO had real PvP and raiding perhaps people wouldn't have left in droves complaining how boring the game is.
Currently, the only way to make money in the MMO business is to copy WoW.
Bioware's first efforts will be a WoW clone that no one will play.
Obviously you didnt read the whole thing.
I stopped when the said an MMO needs to be a "directed experience". When i realize someone is full of shit i tend not to listen to them anymore or read what they write. If i wanted a linear directed game I will play a single player rpg.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Leveling just for the sake of leveling is...well, pretty pointless. Character progression should be defined more by your characters relationship with the game world, not just by numbers on a stat sheet. Starting out as a prospector and working your way up to one of the most successful mining operations on the server is progression. Starting out as a complete pvp noob and working your way up to guild leader of one of the largest pvp guilds is progression. These may not be "avatar" progression, but does it really matter? If we're going to put everything on our avatars, then we might as well just have an auto-play mode built. Well, I guess most MMOs are half way there already...
And playing a MMORPG without avatar progression is equally pointless. Leveling is one of many methods of avatar progression. As I have said before, leveling, gaining experience, gaining skill points, etc. is just a way for an avatar to become more powerful. To dislike the way one game handles progression is ok, but to dislike leveling as a whole just because a game or two is fuzzy thinking.
I would have no problem with the means of progression that you mentioned. As a matter of fact, it sounds like a lot of fun. As far as I am concerned, more means of progression is always better.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Stop comparing WoW with LOTRO, please! The combat in LOTRO is BORING, WoW's is NOT! Very different game mechanics, sure the UI looks similar, I could say the same about alot of mmorpgs, but LOTRO did not grab me the way WoW does, or did. And I WANT to be pulled away from WoW, its driving me crazy how slow they put out content. But LOTRO sure as hell isn't going to do it.
Sorry, had to get that out, tired of seeing LOTRO fanbois trying to make excuses as to why its not as successful as WoW. The game is good for a certain type of player, I have many friends who went there and stayed. But for me, it doesn't have what I want. Hell no game does except FFXI, but that game, as we are talking about here, has the party issue that hurts it for normal folks with lives. Man, I miss that game!
Well it's simple... They are a business company and they want to make money, lot's of it. BW's game will not suck, it will be okay, kinda like LotRO but that's it. I am not looking for another WoW. It's not like WoW is bad game, far from it. But it's just "too easy", it's too "soloable", it's... It's just a casual game, don't know how else to say it.
But maybe it's just me... I'm one of those that are cursed by Pre-CU SWG and every time I see game coming out with no player housing and complex crafting I just shake my head.
Every time I read your post, I die a little inside...
I hated final fantasy XI becouse of party but also no pvp endless grinding many many bots and combat is terrible dull looking boring landscapes.
Bioware after read this gdc post they wont make a innovating new game they just wanne make it better then wow clone it with imporvements:(
Only game that will have what no other have and is playble for almost everyone is DARKFALL yeh i know most will say gank fest open pvp full loot i hate that you say.
But if you investigate game more is a totally freedom of playingstyle mmo, you never have seen before, hardcore casual pve crafters all can play this game with ease!
Now it need to be launched and surprise everyone how good this game will be and appeal to a wide varity of players even casuals, but true you need to be a bit pvp oriented.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
imo the article is more about how to make money than good games.
developers suck. Heres the proof. Wow is at best a lucky strike that they wont see again in any sequel. Its not the bible of mmo's. Far from it. Neither was everquest back in the day. Im starting to see a trend...
Heh from this at least everyone can see it's pretty clear they have no intention of revolutionizing the MMO genre, they are going to be good money hats and go with "If it's not broke why fix it?" way of developing their MMO which we are all so familiar with nowadays.
Hey look at it this way, now you know not to spend 4 years of your life whoring yourself out in their forums.
I guess I'm stuck playing WoW until some other game comes out. Some SciFi, post-apoc skill based, socialy oriented, PVP heavy, FFA, permadeath, ever evolving, proceduraly generated content, easy to get in, hard to master game.
One thing that's very important that he missed is gameplay mechanics. I don't care how much content you provide, nobody will play unless the classes are fun to play. I never saw anything like the rogue's combo system in WoW in any other MMO. It's unlike anything in Everquest and it's fun. Some classes take longer than others to develop into a character that's fun to play but that's why they put levels in RPGs. EQ2 has more content than you can shake a stick at and has a very nice presentation but the classes are boring as hell to play. It's the opposite of addictive and I really wanted to like that game.
When EQ2/WoW were about to be release I decided to go with EQ2. Two months later I was out of it and eventually gave into WoW. The classes are more fun than EQ2's classes.
Read that artical and while I do agree with some of his points, "don't rush the product out the door" SWG was horrible for this, and SOE had little to do with that. Another point is the system spects, I for one want to keep playing on the same PC for around 5 YEARS! not 2 or 3!
But when he said that he was surprised that Blizzard did a mac version of their mmo I was surprised myself, While I will never be a mac person (or a apple fan for that matter lol) I do understand that by putting your game on a mac it broadens your potental playerbace conciderably, and I think that is one of the main reasons why there has been such press on games on macs now trhen there has been in the past despite the fact that macs are more graphic orenented then pcs are.
Another thing on playerbace size that prevents WoW size numbers is the orental market, WoW is everywere while most MMos are centered on europe and the US, and spend very little time and funds on this market area. Blizzard has a massive market in this area ( as one poster has said Starcraft is Koreas national sport) and it is only recently that some MMO companies are tapping this market ( SOE tried this with SWG but they made the mistake of going just for Japan, the single server was closed after only 2 years, I think)
One of the things that I have learned from playing EVE is that haveing a steep learning curve ( ok in EVEs case an insanely steep learning curve lol) is that it really does help players understand the game and how it works ( the fact that it keeps the leet players and instant gratifcation players away also helps but thats another subject entirely lol) While ho0lding the players hand thru the mmo is ok for a short while some tend to forget that that has a limit, true some players do like this , but not all.
SWG did this and they still kept the openness of it but the openended part of it was supressed to the point were players forgot that they had these missions there.
I think it was a bad move from Bioware to let a dev talk about such abstract theories without the crowd knowing anything about their secret MMO. Now the pandora's box is open and speculation wild. Any company leaning too far towards WOW verbally can only loose. WOW fans wont leave WOW and haters wont another WOW, so why the fuzz?
IF that what he said is a hint of the direction the Bioware MMO is going, I am heavily dissappointed. Little choices, fast levelling, Disneyland lead playstyle, sorry but that sounds like another kid game to me. Oh and simplistic graphics. Sure, it was a gain for Blizzard that everyone with a stone age computer can play WOW, but for me as player that never was a gain. It took me 3 years to finally play EQ2 to play in highest settings, but in that way it graphically grew with me, and I am happy now to see all the new details on armor pieces and weapons I wasnt able to see once. Whenever I go looking at WOW these days it just looks incredibly old fashioned to me, like playing Lego graphics from 1990. WOW lacked everything that would give me longevity in a game.
Quite disappointing. I will keep an eye on their MMO, but it surely didnt thrill me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Another thing on playerbace size that prevents WoW size numbers is the orental market, WoW is everywere while most MMos are centered on europe and the US, and spend very little time and funds on this market area. Blizzard has a massive market in this area ( as one poster has said Starcraft is Koreas national sport) and it is only recently that some MMO companies are tapping this market ( SOE tried this with SWG but they made the mistake of going just for Japan, the single server was closed after only 2 years, I think)
I agree completely, most Western publishers shoot themselves in the foot by not targeting Asia. Of course Asian developers make the same mistake by not taking western tastes into account. Even though there might not be as big a players base in the west, the revenue stream is signifigantly higher.
Blizzard learned well from the genre's past. Essentially, Walton posited that taking a critical look at your genre rather than being a fan or having experience developing it is of utmost importance.
Good
From Lesson Two
Blizzard's insistence on keeping system specs low
Very good - I say this is 60% of the reason of WoW's success. If its the only MMO people can play, they will play. This was my case for 1 year.
From Lesson Three
"Quality counts."
It's a amazing how many don't get this.
From Lesson Four
Solo Play
Booooo - That's what porn is for.
From Lesson Five
Simplify the damn GUI! ... He judged WoW's interface to be "as simple as it can possibly be and as fun as it can possibly be."
He has never played the game. A scriptable customizable UI is anything but simple. I spent months tweeking my UI from custom add-ins and my own scripting.
From lesson Six
I didn't get this one. Is he saying WoW has good content? It this a joke?
From Lesson Seven
Pvp
Nothing insightful here
From Lesson Eight
Don't tune for the hardcore
He thinks WoW is a good causal gamer example. This guy is on crack.
From Lesson Nine
Let 'em quit
I agree with this one.
From Lesson 10
He suggested that too many choices are paralyzing.
I really hate this guy now. I'm guessing he doesn't like the civ games.
I stopped reading at this point. Because of this quote, "too many choices are paralyzing" I no longer have hope for any BioWare game. I was hoping this would be the fire MMO to really give me choices. O well.
To sum up – Don’t have too many choices, simple UI, very solo-able . I other words make it for 7 year olds.
Comments
1. The "hardcore" MMO players are going to have to learn they are the minority. If an MMO aimed solely at the hardcore market were to be released it would be the one that flops horribly not the WoW clone.
2. The only MMO released in the past 3 years to have any modicum of success is LotRO, a WoW clone. The only reason it didn't have more success that what it has had is because they didn't copy WoW enough. If LotRO had real PvP and raiding perhaps people wouldn't have left in droves complaining how boring the game is.
Currently, the only way to make money in the MMO business is to copy WoW.
Obviously you didnt read the whole thing.
I stopped when the said an MMO needs to be a "directed experience". When i realize someone is full of shit i tend not to listen to them anymore or read what they write. If i wanted a linear directed game I will play a single player rpg.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I would have no problem with the means of progression that you mentioned. As a matter of fact, it sounds like a lot of fun. As far as I am concerned, more means of progression is always better.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Stop comparing WoW with LOTRO, please! The combat in LOTRO is BORING, WoW's is NOT! Very different game mechanics, sure the UI looks similar, I could say the same about alot of mmorpgs, but LOTRO did not grab me the way WoW does, or did. And I WANT to be pulled away from WoW, its driving me crazy how slow they put out content. But LOTRO sure as hell isn't going to do it.
Sorry, had to get that out, tired of seeing LOTRO fanbois trying to make excuses as to why its not as successful as WoW. The game is good for a certain type of player, I have many friends who went there and stayed. But for me, it doesn't have what I want. Hell no game does except FFXI, but that game, as we are talking about here, has the party issue that hurts it for normal folks with lives. Man, I miss that game!
Well it's simple... They are a business company and they want to make money, lot's of it. BW's game will not suck, it will be okay, kinda like LotRO but that's it. I am not looking for another WoW. It's not like WoW is bad game, far from it. But it's just "too easy", it's too "soloable", it's... It's just a casual game, don't know how else to say it.
But maybe it's just me... I'm one of those that are cursed by Pre-CU SWG and every time I see game coming out with no player housing and complex crafting I just shake my head.
I hated final fantasy XI becouse of party but also no pvp endless grinding many many bots and combat is terrible dull looking boring landscapes.
Bioware after read this gdc post they wont make a innovating new game they just wanne make it better then wow clone it with imporvements:(
Only game that will have what no other have and is playble for almost everyone is DARKFALL yeh i know most will say gank fest open pvp full loot i hate that you say.
But if you investigate game more is a totally freedom of playingstyle mmo, you never have seen before, hardcore casual pve crafters all can play this game with ease!
Now it need to be launched and surprise everyone how good this game will be and appeal to a wide varity of players even casuals, but true you need to be a bit pvp oriented.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
There's plenty of room for innovation following those lessons, you're just too simple to grasp that.
imo the article is more about how to make money than good games.
developers suck. Heres the proof. Wow is at best a lucky strike that they wont see again in any sequel. Its not the bible of mmo's. Far from it. Neither was everquest back in the day. Im starting to see a trend...
I love all these people judging a game before they even know jack about it....saying its going to be a WoW=clone already.
The guy from Bioware was making clear points, all of which make sense about how to make a successful game.
You now nothing about setting, classes, mechanics, content....all of which could make it completely different from WoW
When most players tire of WoW they will need a challange, and NOT the same game over again..
So..Needless to say, another game based on WoW will probably not fail but...
FUN could still be a key factor in a HARDER game, and by hard I do not mean a steep level curve or harch death penalties..
/Thark
Heh from this at least everyone can see it's pretty clear they have no intention of revolutionizing the MMO genre, they are going to be good money hats and go with "If it's not broke why fix it?" way of developing their MMO which we are all so familiar with nowadays.
Hey look at it this way, now you know not to spend 4 years of your life whoring yourself out in their forums.
To the rest of you, enjoy BioWare's WoW.
I guess I'm stuck playing WoW until some other game comes out. Some SciFi, post-apoc skill based, socialy oriented, PVP heavy, FFA, permadeath, ever evolving, proceduraly generated content, easy to get in, hard to master game.
When EQ2/WoW were about to be release I decided to go with EQ2. Two months later I was out of it and eventually gave into WoW. The classes are more fun than EQ2's classes.
Read that artical and while I do agree with some of his points, "don't rush the product out the door" SWG was horrible for this, and SOE had little to do with that. Another point is the system spects, I for one want to keep playing on the same PC for around 5 YEARS! not 2 or 3!
But when he said that he was surprised that Blizzard did a mac version of their mmo I was surprised myself, While I will never be a mac person (or a apple fan for that matter lol) I do understand that by putting your game on a mac it broadens your potental playerbace conciderably, and I think that is one of the main reasons why there has been such press on games on macs now trhen there has been in the past despite the fact that macs are more graphic orenented then pcs are.
Another thing on playerbace size that prevents WoW size numbers is the orental market, WoW is everywere while most MMos are centered on europe and the US, and spend very little time and funds on this market area. Blizzard has a massive market in this area ( as one poster has said Starcraft is Koreas national sport) and it is only recently that some MMO companies are tapping this market ( SOE tried this with SWG but they made the mistake of going just for Japan, the single server was closed after only 2 years, I think)
One of the things that I have learned from playing EVE is that haveing a steep learning curve ( ok in EVEs case an insanely steep learning curve lol) is that it really does help players understand the game and how it works ( the fact that it keeps the leet players and instant gratifcation players away also helps
but thats another subject entirely lol) While ho0lding the players hand thru the mmo is ok for a short while some tend to forget that that has a limit, true some players do like this , but not all.
SWG did this and they still kept the openness of it but the openended part of it was supressed to the point were players forgot that they had these missions there.
I think it was a bad move from Bioware to let a dev talk about such abstract theories without the crowd knowing anything about their secret MMO. Now the pandora's box is open and speculation wild. Any company leaning too far towards WOW verbally can only loose. WOW fans wont leave WOW and haters wont another WOW, so why the fuzz?
IF that what he said is a hint of the direction the Bioware MMO is going, I am heavily dissappointed. Little choices, fast levelling, Disneyland lead playstyle, sorry but that sounds like another kid game to me. Oh and simplistic graphics. Sure, it was a gain for Blizzard that everyone with a stone age computer can play WOW, but for me as player that never was a gain. It took me 3 years to finally play EQ2 to play in highest settings, but in that way it graphically grew with me, and I am happy now to see all the new details on armor pieces and weapons I wasnt able to see once. Whenever I go looking at WOW these days it just looks incredibly old fashioned to me, like playing Lego graphics from 1990. WOW lacked everything that would give me longevity in a game.
Quite disappointing. I will keep an eye on their MMO, but it surely didnt thrill me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I agree completely, most Western publishers shoot themselves in the foot by not targeting Asia. Of course Asian developers make the same mistake by not taking western tastes into account. Even though there might not be as big a players base in the west, the revenue stream is signifigantly higher.
A small recap and my notes
From Lesson One
Blizzard learned well from the genre's past. Essentially, Walton posited that taking a critical look at your genre rather than being a fan or having experience developing it is of utmost importance.
Good
From Lesson Two
Blizzard's insistence on keeping system specs low
Very good - I say this is 60% of the reason of WoW's success. If its the only MMO people can play, they will play. This was my case for 1 year.
From Lesson Three
"Quality counts."
It's a amazing how many don't get this.
From Lesson Four
Solo Play
Booooo - That's what porn is for.
From Lesson Five
Simplify the damn GUI! ... He judged WoW's interface to be "as simple as it can possibly be and as fun as it can possibly be."
He has never played the game. A scriptable customizable UI is anything but simple. I spent months tweeking my UI from custom add-ins and my own scripting.
From lesson Six
I didn't get this one. Is he saying WoW has good content? It this a joke?
From Lesson Seven
Pvp
Nothing insightful here
From Lesson Eight
Don't tune for the hardcore
He thinks WoW is a good causal gamer example. This guy is on crack.
From Lesson Nine
Let 'em quit
I agree with this one.
From Lesson 10
He suggested that too many choices are paralyzing.
I really hate this guy now. I'm guessing he doesn't like the civ games.
I stopped reading at this point. Because of this quote, "too many choices are paralyzing" I no longer have hope for any BioWare game. I was hoping this would be the fire MMO to really give me choices. O well.
To sum up – Don’t have too many choices, simple UI, very solo-able . I other words make it for 7 year olds.