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General: Forum Spotlight: Flash Over Substance?
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
Community Manager Laura Genender takes a look at a forum post asking members whether they would prefer an eye-candy MMO with mediocre gameplay, or a game with out-dated graphics that was deep and well designed. The results may surprise you.
Our forums are always teeming with threads about what gamers want - massive PvP battles, dynamic worlds, breathtakingly realistic graphics, so on and so forth. This week in The Pub, though, RonnyRulz puts a tough question to the forum crowd: Would you rather play a regular MMO with gorgeous graphics, or a dynamic, deep MMO with outdated graphics? Would you rather content or eye-candy?
RonnyRulz sets the scene for what's being offered: imagine if you could play in "a real persistent world, with player-run cities and a player-run economy. The entire world begins with only dev-made cities, or nothing at all, whichever. Players begin and harvest trees with a beginning axe. They craft said raw tree material into logs. Players use these logs to build buildings using a lego-type build system, so that they can design their houses to look any way they want... Players build their own shops, their own defense structures. The game emphasizes freedom for the player."
Read the whole article here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
After beta testing tens of MMOs, subverting my life for several months with World of Warcraft and constantly scanning MMO news for my dream MMO I'd have to say that I'd take substance over flash, with some important caveats.
It is important to me that a game is highly polished, like WoW, with no bugs, and with an interface and game mechanics that flow. That being said, I don't need to see the highest-end graphics.
I bought Burning Crusade, but was alarmed to find myself bored out of my mind after several hours of the same old thing.
I asked myself, why does the world's biggest MMO bore me out of my wits? I had to say that what I crave is dynamic content, and the ability to shape the game world around me.
An NPC stays in one place for eternity, and the plot only moves forward in expansions, when a player cannot express him or herself in any other way than to interact with a guild via chat, or by carrying 'phat loot', these things hold an MMO back from being truly revolutionary.
Back in the day, I used to play MUDs and MUSHes, and odd though it may seem, these games seemed more dynamic to me. People were constantly updating the text descriptions of rooms and these games had bulletin boards IN THEM, so that players could interact with the community within the game. There were also wandering NPCs that went from room to room, and had daily schedules and activities.
Would it really be that much of a technical stretch for NPCs to wander more, or do quasi-realistic things like sit at the Inn during certain hours, or sleep during certain hours?
Since Ultima Online, it seems that only Vanguard: Saga of Heros has allowed players to develop real estate. Why haven't more games done this? If someone would make a crafting system that contributed goods to a final product such as a house, a cart, or some other persistent world feature, it would go miles towards giving a game a more real feel.
In PVP, the best world battfield I've ever seen is at World War II Online, where the actions and battles involving real players affect the production capacities and the months-long campaigns of both sides. It would be a wonder if this sort of thing from a game like World War II Online or Planetside were incorporated into an MMORPG.
Until someone gets a handle on these dynamic elements, no MMO will ever turn the page from WoW and Everquest-type games. We've got Second Life and Tale in the Desert, but all people do there is show off what they've designed and spend endless hours building and designing.
Someone's got to take the best elements of games like World War II Online, Second Life, and World of Warcraft, and make a true dynamic next-generation MMOPRG.
Maybe when they do that I'll go back to MMOs.
So much more processing power than we had ten years ago with text-based MMOs, and yet most games have LESS depth than before. Maybe this is a symptom of the wider audience drawn to gaming. I think it's sad, because it bores the heck out of me.
Amen, I have been playing UO for 8 yrs, the reason I keep it is because of the depth. Graphics are secondary for me. Although even that game has lost its fun aspects. I really miss the days of early UO before Trammel. The game was so much more exciting. I used to feel a little scared when I would wander out of town. All of the limits placed on PvP in all of the MMOs has sucked the life like feel from the games. Anyone else agree? Can you still play UO on private or underground servers? Please tell me where, I long for the good old days!!!!!!!
By far substance...I don't think you'll get much "Flash" answers.
I'm not trying to sound like a jackass, but as you become a more mature gamer flash doesn't become so important. At least that is the road I took.
I could be wrong, but I'm never wrong!
Substance is much better than flash. Take Lair for example. Beautiful game but it sucks.
By the way, good quote from the Princess Bride.
Ever sence EQ1 ive been a nomad going from one game to another looking for a game that has the depth and substance im looking for.
where the point of the world isnt focused on endless killing and battles,, where the economy isnt based on thic combat.
Things Im looking for in my dream MMO
FOOD AND WATER based economy that is critical but also organicly embeded into the game play
think about simply crossing a desert if water is trivial then crossing a desert is also trivial no need to plot your course based on water points no need for a druid/ranger/or mage to aquire water.. same thing for sieges a siege becomes trivial when you dont have the chalange of having to supply an army in a distant land for an extended time.
having a food based or resourc based economy also justifies other crafts with real importance most of pottery is in support of cooking or storing foodstuff smoking/salting/drying
non-nationalized vender /auction houses,
with localized as in city or kingdom merchants it creates much more room for masters and the way i would set up merchants is kind of a hopper or funnel so that if a fish merchant is flooded with fish he offers a lower price or none at all and only the most basic supplies are defaulted on these merchants everything else would be player supplied
imagine selling iceburg lettus from the north for pineapples from the south, or smoked/salted fish
localized resource clusters and specialties (to promote trade between reigons) i would not have all resources available every where and i disslike "sprinkles" I would prefer more focus on clustered areas or mines quarries or fields and different areas might use different materials for their basic weapons what if their is no copper where you live? what do you have? what can your trade? I do like the Idea of forageables like bark,herbs,roots,tubors and skills to recognize these plants so when im out in the wilderness and first see a certain type of plant my data on it is is empty but over time I learn about this plant and what can be done with it either by direct study or from other players or teachers.
climate and seasons also the possibilities of plagues and famine/shortages that have to be delt with the whole object is that the player actually "lives" in and is part of this world this is an "idealized" world not a raw reality world so while a player may get thursty they would never die of thurst and curing the negative effects would be rather quick like wounds.
speaking of wounds when players get injured I would like to see some different injury types I disslike seeing a charactor or mob almost dead and not looking it maby they could have a body window where you could apply different cures to woulds like bandages or polticies or even curative magics.
NPCs should live in the world not be human shaped vending machines they should gain or loose faction with players as they become to know them an NPC should have like 3 modes work home combat
next is MAGIC I would like to see the magic system be much wider than simple combat for instance a small flame spell should be able to do damage to a mob,, possibly be used as a light source,, or to start a small fire based on the fire spells inherant ability
players should be able to alter these traits to create their own custom spell for instance do you want the fire to be short range but very large? or long range but small? also is the fire green red or blue? this would make mages much more diverse.
I would also base the world on a DEFAULT + set up example: a warmonger drops some seed and a bit of water and goes off dungeon crawling and comes back to a default crop,, where as a tender player puts down seeds and water and occasionally tweeks the setting in the crop controls bugs and weeds he is rewarded with a larger than default crop because he put more effort into it.
I would have stats more seperated from the look of armor maby pockets in the item that way if a player wanted to go for a certain look they wouldnt have to wear blue pants with orange boots.
public works projects such as dams and aquaducts roads bridges walls tunnels ect that players of ALL levels can contribute to and some of these projects can take weeks or even months.
there should be things players expect in the world if you have oceans there should be boats if you have sieges their should be siege machines.
DYNAMIC spawns too many game developers get lazy and fill their world with massive generic spawn generators that NEVER CHANGE!!! >BORING!!!< have some expanding spawns like bandits or goblin hords that if unchalanged they spread they need to have a bit of unpredictability to the world where sometimes even the safest city is threatened. I would probably make it so that public structures in town can be destroyed and player owned structures can be damaged and crops can be looted/razed
much more content that is long term decovery anchient languages riddles legends things older players can sink our teeth into contact with other races should be much different if i goto the trade district of a elvish city then sure I will find some elves that speak human but if I go back into the city itself few would speak human if they would allow me back there at all (though im a big fan of being able to work on gaining faction) languages should be rather slow and limited to so much per day like 1 point for listening and 2-3 points if you actually use a teacher.
skill based charactors where players construct their charactors using points into skills so if a player wants to make a sword weilding mage they can also charactors can modify their looks like change hair styles.
I can live with graphics not being cutting edge as long as its adaquate and stable same for the interface as long as it is functional and customizeable it can be mainly simple hotkey boxes
I would love to come into a game fantacy/modern with this premice,,, the planet where I was is doomed,, the only escape is a portal to this new unknown place with limited mass of equipment and you start the game knowing effectivly NOTHING about your world except that where you land is prety safe and not too far from a basic outpost,
so many questions, are there other humans? other races? what types of animals or plants? weather? what is good to eat? plus a million or so other questions is the sky red? blue? are there any other planets in the system? moons? which way is norrth? is there a north? is this an island or a contenent.
I would have a small choice in starting supplies some food/water clothing a tool like a choice between a knife/axe/shovel a light source first aid kit and maby a fishing kit and a portable shelter,fire making kit, the reason i limit the tools is to promote players to cooperate if one has a shovel and another has a knife and yet another has an axe then they all can do different tasks ot trade tools between them
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
I think more than graphics have to be x good or gameplay has to be y good, it comes down to quality. WoW has terrible graphics, but they are quality. WoW gameplay offers little new over other games, but has quality. You can't really measure quality in an MMO and it is hard to define.
When you say terrible graphics, WoW doesn't come to mind. What comes to mind are cheap Korean MMOs that have low end graphical quality. Don't get me wrong, I think the art I've seen in Korean games is top notch and in many ways better than any from North America. But in the cheap Korean games you end up with graphical anomalies, characters that look hollow (and you often see that they are hollow due to clipping) and an overall feel of low quality.
Low quality systems might be harder to see right away, but it goes along the same lines. You can have an amazing set of features, but if the quality isn't there then you are going to draw and retain a very small crowd indeed. If you have the ability to cut down trees and build a house with them, but it is a clunky, annoying, bug ridden process...then the fun and usefulness of that game function is lost. Who wants to go through that when trees fall through the world 50% of the time you cut them, or when you get a "cannot see", "tree already cut" or "tree out of range" message when you try to cut 30% of them?
The mindset of yesterday's MMO world is really starting to piss me off. "We'll just release whatever we can and work on it as we go". That was fine in the day of EQ, UO and AO but it's not that day anymore. We are now talking about a multi BILLION dollar entertainment industry. In movies you have A-List movies that the majority watches and B-List movies that a few people rent when they feel like having some cheese. I have had some really, really short stays in MMOs lately because I can tell in about five minutes what bracket the game falls under.
I will not play a B-List game. If I play one it's because I'm extremely bored and it's free for 7 days or something along those lines. Just like if I'm watching a Steven Segal movie it's because I'm bored out of my mind and willing to watch extreme crap for a laugh.
Why do game developers expect to put in ~1 million dollars and make hundreds of millions?! Sure it can happen in the rare case (Blare Witch, anyone?), but come on... A-List movies cost hundreds of millions to make and games are quickly getting there (I've heard 60 million for WoW). If you don't have tens or hundreds of millions to spend on research and development, please save us the pain of your empty hype. We're all getting tired of the trash you've been pusing on us for the past number of years.
So to sum it up: Q.U.A.L.I.T.Y. Quality graphics. Not amazing, mind blowing graphics: quality. Quality sound. Quality gameplay.
I would agree Substance > Flash.
I don't care how pretty the game is, if the gameplay sucks I'm not going to buy it or continue to subscribe. Eye candy is nice, but I prefer the "filling" inside.
The only game I've ever had to quit because it threatened to suck the very life from my marrow (at least, eat all my free time and social life) was Eve Online. Here is a game with lovely graphics (although, some feel if you've seen one nebula you've seen them all, I'm extraordinarily fond of pretty chaos), an overtly simple game that has arbitrary, player contributed depth.
But no avatar customization -- really no avatar in the conventional sense. No real variation of graphics and scene. But deep, economic, diplomatic, social, and a good slice of kicking ass.
I'm also fond of Second Life, where you can create your own collaborative games and there's a real economy, but the graphics and performance and stability all suck.
I have a theory that most gamers like persistent quest-based rules because linearness is comforting, and that's why they passionately hate virtual worlds so much. Me, I go both ways. So I have a lifetime founders account on LOTRO, and *literally* I sometimes just log in there to sit on a hillside in the Shire and watch the scenery and listen to the birds and crickets. I live in a city apartment, and it does my heart good. After all, the Shire has so much in common with Vermont, where I grew up. But the game is decent too, and the *community* that is attracted to LOTRO (at least, the beta folks) rock.
So let's add that to the mix. I am in both LOTRO and SL because of the community, not the vendor content/gameplay or graphics.
But, eventually, playing one game is going to be a little like watching one TV channel might have been years ago. I love guildcafe.com, for example (feel free to go check it out and friend me! I'm shava there too) over guildportal, because it's social media, it's not a silo, it's multigame, and about *gaming*, not just about your guild or your game. It's community.
So, what kind of community does a game attract? I love Tabula Rasa, but I won't buy it because I don't like the kinds of folks who are attracted to it. I'm not a paramilitary FPS type, and the community there seems to be dominated by that.
There was a study (yay, yee!) recently that showed that MMO players spend about half their time in the meta-game -- sites like this, guildcafe, tentonhammer, guild sites, what have you. Community is important to the social media, the guild and friendships, and a lot of what I value in a gaming community.
So in addition to folks who want both gameplay and flash, add people who want good community, and good community *tools* to go with it.
Yrs,
Shava
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Back in the day, I used to play MUDs and MUSHes, and odd though it may seem, these games seemed more dynamic to me. People were constantly updating the text descriptions of rooms and these games had bulletin boards IN THEM, so that players could interact with the community within the game. There were also wandering NPCs that went from room to room, and had daily schedules and activities.
Would it really be that much of a technical stretch for NPCs to wander more, or do quasi-realistic things like sit at the Inn during certain hours, or sleep during certain hours?
No, so why hasn't anyone done this? Most of todays mmog devs got started in gaming via MUDs yet they haven't implemented the aspects that made them dynamic. Why not?
As for player housing, the original Horizons had a construction system where you had to craft individual components for walls and other structural elements from raw resources, then use building skills to 'construct' them into place. As you added pieces to the building the 3D model would go from a skeleton frame to more and more sections visible until when you finally reached 100% complete it would pop into the final form.
Was GREAT FUN to work with guildies in teams on weekends, some teams mining ore and stone and cutting wood, some teams working as runners to deliver the raw materials to teams with refining skill, then crafting the refined components into building pieces, running those parts out to the builders team who'd add it to a wall section. Usually took a few weekends to build a major building like a guildhall and when it finally popped into completion we'd have big party to celebrate.
This construction method was also used to re-build ruined bridges which gave access to new game areas, also to excavate caves which played a part in unlocking new races and advancing the games story arc .
Horizons gets ripped as a flawed game but overall it had some of the most innovative gameplay ever. Shame that poor management practices caused the game to be punted around to multiple 'owners' . No idea what the game is like today.