Heh. Oh where to start on this post. First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it. Elves, trolls, dwarves, dragons - all the cornerstones of fantasy role-playing games, from the original PnP Dungeons&Dragons on up to the present - yes, including Warcraft - trace their lore back to Tolkien's work. LoTRO is a game based *directly* on Tolkien's lore. So to call LoTRO a "rip-off" of anything is to imply that Tolkien himself ripped off games that came decades - yes decades - after he created Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. So, your "LOTRO copied everyother myth of Elfs and shit" [sic] is ass-backwards, poorly informed and absurd.
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
It didnt say he invented any of those things. It said middle earth and all of its inhabitants were created by him. Thats like saying he didnt create middle earth, because the earth was already known about. His lore, that he created is the basis on which the lore that warcraft uses. Your just splitting hairs.
Agreed completely. Tolkien's vision was to create a mythology for Europe, most specifically for Britain, since there really wasn't a coherent, unified mythology. That's what he wanted to do. He took things from many different places and changed them and created something new and wonderful. The reason he is considered the grandfather of high fantasy, however, has mostly to do with the fact that Gary Gygax and co. pretty much totally ripped off his stuff when they created their fantasy roleplaying game, which is what all these games have their roots in.
Like it or not, Tolkien's was really the first vision of the tall, slender, immortal and mysterious elf; the loud, raucous, but noble dwarf; the subtle and strong-willed hobbit, the vicious and terrible orc. All of these things, which are drawn off of by all things in today's high fantasy, were unified into a single vision of "high fantasy" by Mr. Tolkien.
Even though Gygax denies it, it's true. I mean, in the original D&D source books, halflings were called hobbits, until there was a legal problem and it was changed.
--------
"Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life."
Heh. Oh where to start on this post. First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it. Elves, trolls, dwarves, dragons - all the cornerstones of fantasy role-playing games, from the original PnP Dungeons&Dragons on up to the present - yes, including Warcraft - trace their lore back to Tolkien's work. LoTRO is a game based *directly* on Tolkien's lore. So to call LoTRO a "rip-off" of anything is to imply that Tolkien himself ripped off games that came decades - yes decades - after he created Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. So, your "LOTRO copied everyother myth of Elfs and shit" [sic] is ass-backwards, poorly informed and absurd.
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
Actully I think you missed his point, and I suspect that you aren't that familiar with the original sources you are comparing Tolkien's work to. I think what he meant was that Tolkien reinterpreted existing mythological sources and sythesized them into something that has been aped much more closely by subsequent RPGs and CRPGs that he aped any of his original sources.
For example "orc" and "goblin" are names for faeries from in European folklore. They bear little resemblance to the evil humanoids that appear in LoTRO. You could argue that Elves in Norse mythology were at least similar to Tolkien elves, but when you get into the details of the individual stories they were actually not all that similar either (often they are depicted as being closer to dwarves from tolkien). Hobbits have no relatives in any previous myths that I am aware of. Dwarves in Norse mythology, on the other hand, were very close to how Tolkien depicts them. So yeah, Tolkien didn't invent his dwarves. However, many of his other races were nearly purely his inventions, which he somewhat randomly applied names from germanic (mostly) folklore to.
When you look at susbequent fantasy, you can see that "Tolkien elves" "Tolkien goblins" ect. have been copied in nearly every detail by many subsequent authors. For example, if they had copied the original goblins of folklore, goblins would be a few inchees high, usually invisible, hide in your house, and either help with the cleaning or curdle your milk depending on how you treat them. That bears almost zero resemblance to the evil tribal humanoids of Tolkien's work or most RPGs.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Actully I think you missed his point, and I suspect that you aren't that familiar with the original sources you are comparing Tolkien's work to. I think what he meant was that Tolkien reinterpreted existing mythological sources and sythesized them into something that has been aped much more closely by subsequent RPGs and CRPGs that he aped any of his original sources.
FWIW, D&D started as an offshoot of historical miniatures combat systems - the fantasy element included Germanic mythological creatures (and yes, some ideas from Tolkien's works, even if Gygax denies it). Primarily using vorgs/worgs, dragons, dwarves as cavalry, siege, and infantry units.
For historical, ya I'm a wee bit familiar with the original sources. Tolkien was brilliant. There's no doubt of that. But don't give him credit for something he himself said he didn't do.
Heh. Oh where to start on this post. First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it. Elves, trolls, dwarves, dragons - all the cornerstones of fantasy role-playing games, from the original PnP Dungeons&Dragons on up to the present - yes, including Warcraft - trace their lore back to Tolkien's work. LoTRO is a game based *directly* on Tolkien's lore. So to call LoTRO a "rip-off" of anything is to imply that Tolkien himself ripped off games that came decades - yes decades - after he created Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. So, your "LOTRO copied everyother myth of Elfs and shit" [sic] is ass-backwards, poorly informed and absurd.
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
I was waiting for someone to try playing "gotcha" with that...
Allow me to quote myself:
"First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it."
High Fantasy being the specific combination of Dwarves, Elves, Dragons, Orcs, Trolls, etcand their particular stereotypes, their lifestyles, etc. etc. defining a specific type of "alternate universe". Tolkien didn't *invent* those things, he did however combine them in such a way that has gone on to become the blueprint for High Fantasy, again, as we know it. I could also say his work is what popularized it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actully I think you missed his point, and I suspect that you aren't that familiar with the original sources you are comparing Tolkien's work to. I think what he meant was that Tolkien reinterpreted existing mythological sources and sythesized them into something that has been aped much more closely by subsequent RPGs and CRPGs that he aped any of his original sources.
FWIW, D&D started as an offshoot of historical miniatures combat systems - the fantasy element included Germanic mythological creatures (and yes, some ideas from Tolkien's works, even if Gygax denies it). Primarily using vorgs/worgs, dragons, dwarves as cavalry, siege, and infantry units.
For historical, ya I'm a wee bit familiar with the original sources. Tolkien was brilliant. There's no doubt of that. But don't give him credit for something he himself said he didn't do.
I'm sure you know exactly what I meant in my comment. Others seem to have gotten it without me spelling it out for them. Seems you're splitting hairs here just to have an argument.
And anyway, it still shows the fallacy in the post I was responding to, about how "LoTRO rips of the idea of elfves..." etc...
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
READ no one ever said wow was built on AC2 engine they said LOTRO was.... B4 you continue bashing peoples opinions and facts(I beta tested LOTRO and WOW) They are roughly the same ui the game play is more in depth then LOTRO due to the fact blizzard listened to the users unlike Turbine which is why LOTRO has little to no endgame content
News flash for you buckeroo, all these games have roughly the same game play. Take away LoTRO's music system and PvMP and the game play is roughly the same as EQ1, EQII, WoW, Vanguard and every other DIKU lvl based game there is.
LOTRO stands out by having prettier graphics, the first successful PvMP system, the first and only player generated music system and just a hell of a good community. It also has wide range game play options ( solo, group, raid, crafting, and even PvMP rewards) in order to get decent gear. All the while incorporating the wonderful Tolkein lore and giving the player small bit parts in what has to be the best fantasy world ever created.
The games smoothness, class balance, and overall lack of bugginess while being able to be played on a mid range system to achieve those wonderfull graphics is just icing on the cake.
There ya go.. thats the perfect way to put it.. strip away the little things devs think are making the games unique, and its all the same damn game.. No one accuses games of being a UO clone.. or EVE.. or even FFXI for that matter.. no one really tries to innovate their games in the genre anymore.. i think they all decided that one type of gameplay is the way to go, just make one or 2 small changes, re-skin it, and try and cash in. Maybe it would be nice to see clones of those 3 games...
OMG Another "this game is so much like WoW" thread.
Is anyone else sick of hearing this stuff? Do you WoW Fanbois really think WoW was the first game ever set up like this? Just because it may have been your first game you ever played doesn't make it the first. (and no, I'm not a WoW hater, just sick and tired of this crap)
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self. --Aristotle
Heh. Oh where to start on this post. First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it. Elves, trolls, dwarves, dragons - all the cornerstones of fantasy role-playing games, from the original PnP Dungeons&Dragons on up to the present - yes, including Warcraft - trace their lore back to Tolkien's work. LoTRO is a game based *directly* on Tolkien's lore. So to call LoTRO a "rip-off" of anything is to imply that Tolkien himself ripped off games that came decades - yes decades - after he created Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. So, your "LOTRO copied everyother myth of Elfs and shit" [sic] is ass-backwards, poorly informed and absurd.
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
It didnt say he invented any of those things. It said middle earth and all of its inhabitants were created by him. Thats like saying he didnt create middle earth, because the earth was already known about. His lore, that he created is the basis on which the lore that warcraft uses. Your just splitting hairs.
Agreed completely. Tolkien's vision was to create a mythology for Europe, most specifically for Britain, since there really wasn't a coherent, unified mythology. That's what he wanted to do. He took things from many different places and changed them and created something new and wonderful. The reason he is considered the grandfather of high fantasy, however, has mostly to do with the fact that Gary Gygax and co. pretty much totally ripped off his stuff when they created their fantasy roleplaying game, which is what all these games have their roots in.
Like it or not, Tolkien's was really the first vision of the tall, slender, immortal and mysterious elf; the loud, raucous, but noble dwarf; the subtle and strong-willed hobbit, the vicious and terrible orc. All of these things, which are drawn off of by all things in today's high fantasy, were unified into a single vision of "high fantasy" by Mr. Tolkien.
Even though Gygax denies it, it's true. I mean, in the original D&D source books, halflings were called hobbits, until there was a legal problem and it was changed.
Ok. No one argues Tolkien started the whole "high fantasy" genre. That doesn't mean that something in a game based on his works isnt influenced by another game, that has come to be due to that. Tolkien wrote the books so it means Wow ripped him off? hardly. If anything, that game ripped him off. I'm pretty sure he didnt make it.
And didn't we already reach to point in this thread that just because someone uses a good idea doesnt mean its a slight to the creator? in the UI discussion? its what works so everyone uses it?
But yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere here. Tolkien started it, but its not his anymore. And you know how rediculous it sounds when people say " tolkein ripped of celtic mythos" , because he was inspired by it and made it his own? Thats how rediculous it sounds to the people on the other side of the argument when you say " Everyone since Tolkien is ripping him off", because the genre has been inspired by his work.
WOW copied LOTR lore, use google and find out where elfs came from.
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
WOW copied LOTR lore, use google and find out where elfs came from.
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
Once again, not I, nor anyone else is claiming Tolkien invented elves or dwarves. Nowhere is that even implied. I made special care to note that he is the "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy *as we know it* because I realize he didn't invent all those races, myths, etc. He did, however, create the specific setting of Middle Earth, bringing all those elements together, including complete languages, lore, events, etc... into what is now the key basis and inspiration for much of high fantasy in games, books, etc as we know it.
Here's an analogy by way of a hypothetical...
Say someone puts out a book, based on the Sasquatch, that becomes the definition by which people judge that myth/legend going forward. Does that mean the creator of that book invented the myth of Sasquatch? No. But they did greatly influence and popularize the way it would be portrayed going forward.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
WOW copied LOTR lore, use google and find out where elfs came from.
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
Once again, not I, nor anyone else is claiming Tolkien invented elves or dwarves. Nowhere is that even implied. I made special care to note that he is the "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy *as we know it* because I realize he didn't invent all those races, myths, etc. He did, however, create the specific setting of Middle Earth, bringing all those elements together, including complete languages, lore, events, etc... into what is now the key basis and inspiration for much of high fantasy in games, books, etc as we know it.
Here's an analogy by way of a hypothetical...
Say someone puts out a book, based on the Sasquatch, that becomes the definition by which people judge that myth/legend going forward. Does that mean the creator of that book invented the myth of Sasquatch? No. But they did greatly influence and popularize the way it would be portrayed going forward.
Good analogy.
Futher, imagine that this author portrayed saquatches as three feet tall, green, and subsisting mostly on french toast. If a subsequent author potrays sasquatches as being three feet tall, green, and susbsisting mostly on toast with marmelade....is it more accurate to say that they were inspired by the original legend of the sasquatch, or our hypothetical author?
I know what I think, but I guess some folks here would beg to differ.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Is it just me or does this game look identical to WoW in every aspect (UI placement, skillsetup, everything) it looks so alike it i can barely spot any differences (except the lotr theme vs warcraft theme)
Guys you know what is it? This is asheron's call 2 from 2002. Check the minimap location together with health/mana pool. Skill list is on the bottom, to the right are bag icons and to the left options menu.
Looks like as in WoW? Aye cause WoW copied this interface completely. Lord of the Rings is build on the same graphic engine as Asheron's Call 2 so it's obvious they have identical interface. But compare the years they were released AC2 in 2002, WoW in 2004.
The thread should be called wow = ac2 under wow general discussion.
Heh. Oh where to start on this post. First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it. Elves, trolls, dwarves, dragons - all the cornerstones of fantasy role-playing games, from the original PnP Dungeons&Dragons on up to the present - yes, including Warcraft - trace their lore back to Tolkien's work. LoTRO is a game based *directly* on Tolkien's lore. So to call LoTRO a "rip-off" of anything is to imply that Tolkien himself ripped off games that came decades - yes decades - after he created Middle Earth and all its inhabitants. So, your "LOTRO copied everyother myth of Elfs and shit" [sic] is ass-backwards, poorly informed and absurd.
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
He created the Orc.
Only the most famous creature in all of high fantasy.
WOW copied LOTR lore, use google and find out where elfs came from.
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
Originality is only a measure of how well you can put a spin on age old concepts.
Yes Tolkien's elf was derived from Norse mythology, much like a lot of Middle Earth. Yet his Elf is still quite different to what you find there.
That is not the same, however, as making some beautiful, tall humanoid with pointy ears, making it more in tune to nature than the average human, and calling it 'Moon Elf', 'Silver Elf', or the most famous one, 'Night Elf'. By the way the creation of 'new' elves begun with the Drow from D&D, who in turn was heavily inspired by Tolkien and various other fantasy successes before it.
What you're doing here is trying to take Tolkien off his much earned pedestal and stick him right next to every amateur high fantasy writer that ever lived. It doesn't work like that.
WoW and LOTRO share a common basic feel to their UI- and as many have pointed out? That basic UI concept's been around since long before both. With current available technology and controls available- there's only so much you can do with the games in ways of interaction. Plus it's just sound business wise to use a model that while offering some customization, it will not require a player putting effort into learning an entirely new system of basic controls. This makes picking up a new game more appealing to an already seasoned gamer, and can give a new gamer confidence about trying other games the company may produce.
As to the 'WoW ripped off Tolkien discussion'- Fair enough to say then Tolkien ripped off both Nordic and Celtic lore. By the by- Liquid47? he did not create Orcs, either. All he did was take them out of the ocean and make them a land bound monster. Essentially, Tolkien gathered up cues from several centuries of oral and the rare written myth, put it into the proverbial blender and assigned names and took spinoffs on ideas to vary them and combine them from various sources. He used a tried and true formula- but he did it well. His biggest contribution to the area of writing was the style in which he did it- meaning one did not have to be a scholar to keep up with it or get access to it. He was the grand-daddy of modern fantasy novel writing rather than of the genre and all it entails as his many fanboys and fangirls like to claim. If he could be said to have created any of the actual lore and races used in his works: it was the Hobbits. Even they still have elements of 'inspired by', though they are not 'taken from' as many of the other races are.
WoW and LOTRO share a common basic feel to their UI- and as many have pointed out? That basic UI concept's been around since long before both. With current available technology and controls available- there's only so much you can do with the games in ways of interaction. Plus it's just sound business wise to use a model that while offering some customization, it will not require a player putting effort into learning an entirely new system of basic controls. This makes picking up a new game more appealing to an already seasoned gamer, and can give a new gamer confidence about trying other games the company may produce. As to the 'WoW ripped off Tolkien discussion'- Fair enough to say then Tolkien ripped off both Nordic and Celtic lore. By the by- Liquid47? he did not create Orcs, either. All he did was take them out of the ocean and make them a land bound monster. Essentially, Tolkien gathered up cues from several centuries of oral and the rare written myth, put it into the proverbial blender and assigned names and took spinoffs on ideas to vary them and combine them from various sources. He used a tried and true formula- but he did it well. His biggest contribution to the area of writing was the style in which he did it- meaning one did not have to be a scholar to keep up with it or get access to it. He was the grand-daddy of modern fantasy novel writing rather than of the genre and all it entails as his many fanboys and fangirls like to claim. If he could be said to have created any of the actual lore and races used in his works: it was the Hobbits. Even they still have elements of 'inspired by', though they are not 'taken from' as many of the other races are.
I have said it before, and I will say it again:
Originality is only a measure of how much you can put a spin on age old concepts.
That being said, it seems you guys are trying to pass off like you know a lot by vaguely glossing over information on how Tolkien has not created anything. You guys can thank Wikipedia for that (just looking at the page now and it seems a lot of points people have brought up coincidentally stem from Wikipedia lol).
Yes Tolkien was inspired by age old myth. How else would he have come up with ideas? How the hell does any writer do so without looking to the past?
But yes, if you look closely, Orcs seem to be inspired by creatures such as trolls and goblins. I mean, look -- both of those other fantasy creatures are in LotR anyway, one being larger than the average orc, the other being a smaller variation of the Orc. It's a tale of Good versus Evil and Race of Men need an equal. Et voila, an Orc!
You don't have to be a writer to think like one. Although it helps .
Actually I was referring to the concept and name of "Orc" in general. It existed before Tolkien came along as a type of sea monster- and I never once said he was bad for having done what he did. I'll give the man his props for a well written tale and popularizing things that until then were largely region-only legends and myths. It's mostly his fanboys and fangirls who claim everyone who does anything in regards to elves, orcs and so on is "OMG ripping off Tolkien!!" my post was against.
My point in bringing that up is: Unless some game other than LOTRO is handing me a quest that says "Take this magic ring to that big volcano and throw it in before it revives the evil lord and helps him enslave the world!"- they are not "ripping off Tolkien" any more than Tolkien "ripped off" anyone else's work. Some folks really do their own research into the myths and work off of them- only to have the Tolkien Fan Brigade say "OMG you thief!".
By the by- Liquid47? he did not create Orcs, either. All he did was take them out of the ocean and make them a land bound monster.
Are you really trying to make this connection...
Orc, Ork, Orca (various common names for Orcinus orca, the killer whale): a 30 foot long 8 ton dolphin relative (a member of the familly Delphidae) that lives in the ocean and hunts in packs***
Orc (Tolkien fiction): evil tribal humanoids.
Yeah, all he did was take them out of the water and make them a land bound monster.
You do realize how silly that sounds?
In any case, I think Liquid47 has it right. No one works in a vacuum. It's debatable whether humans are capable of having a truly original idea (as in an idea that incorporates nothing that they have experienced, encountered in the past, heard of, or read about).
I would argue that whether something is "original" in the way the term is commonly used in speach and writing is more a matter of degree than kind. And as several of us have been saying over and over again, many subsequent authors copied Tolkien in much closer detail than Tolkien copied any of the literary or folklore sources that were in existence before the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.
For example, many later authors seem to have borrowed orcs, goblins, trolls, elves, and dwarves from Tolkien and modified them much less than Tolkien modified them when he borrowed them from folklore. Maybe they started with the same folklore sources and, by sheer coincidence, happened to decide to make nearly the exact same modifications as Tolkien (yeah, I mean, hardly any fantasy authors have even read the Lord of the Rings I would imagine...). But I personally think a much more parsimonious explanation is that they did in fact read Tolkein and borrow from him.
Was Tolkein "original" in the strictest definition of the word? No, but neither was Shakespeare, Homer, or Aristotle if you want to get that anal about what the word means (and do not take that to mean I would put Tolkien next to any of those luminaries, I'm just making a point). Was Tolkien more original than subsequent fantasy authors, RPG designers, and CRP game designers that copied many elements of his fantasy world (when designing their setting) with only minor modifications? Yes, I would say he was.
But as I've said "original or not" is a matter of degree rather than kind, and your degree may differ from mine.
***It's the only "sea monster" reference Tolkien seems to have been aware of if Wikipedia is to be believed, but I'm not sure about the citation that they use. In any case it's not the reference Tolkien intended. He was actually using a modification of an old english word for "demon" according to several non Wikipedia sources I've read. Check out some of Christopher Tolkiens work if you actually care about this kind of thing.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
By the by- Liquid47? he did not create Orcs, either. All he did was take them out of the ocean and make them a land bound monster.
Are you really trying to make this connection...
Orc, Ork, Orca (various common names for Orcinus orca, the killer whale): a 30 foot long 8 ton dolphin relative (a member of the familly Delphidae) that lives in the ocean and hunts in packs***
Orc (Tolkien fiction): evil tribal humanoids.
Yeah, all he did was take them out of the water and make them a land bound monster.
You do realize how silly that sounds?
In any case, I think Liquid47 has it right. No one works in a vacuum. It's debatable whether humans are capable of having a truly original idea (as in an idea that incorporates nothing that they have experienced, encountered in the past, heard of, or read about).
I would argue that whether something is "original" in the way the term is commonly used in speach and writing is more a matter of degree than kind. And as several of us have been saying over and over again, many subsequent authors copied Tolkien in much closer detail than Tolkien copied any of the literary or folklore sources that were in existence before the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.
For example, many later authors seem to have borrowed orcs, goblins, trolls, elves, and dwarves from Tolkien and modified them much less than Tolkien modified them when he borrowed them from folklore. Maybe they started with the same folklore sources and, by sheer coincidence, happened to decide to make nearly the exact same modifications as Tolkien (yeah, I mean, hardly any fantasy authors have even read the Lord of the Rings I would imagine...). But I personally think a much more parsimonious explanation is that they did in fact read Tolkein and borrow from him.
Was Tolkein "original" in the strictest definition of the word? No, but neither was Shakespeare, Homer, or Aristotle if you want to get that anal about what the word means (and do not take that to mean I would put Tolkien next to any of those luminaries, I'm just making a point). Was Tolkien more original than subsequent fantasy authors, RPG designers, and CRP game designers that copied many elements of his fantasy world (when designing their setting) with only minor modifications? Yes, I would say he was.
But as I've said "original or not" is a matter of degree rather than kind, and your degree may differ from mine.
***It's the only "sea monster" reference Tolkien seems to have been aware of if Wikipedia is to be believed, but I'm not sure about the citation that they use. In any case it's not the reference Tolkien intended. He was actually using a modification of an old english word for "demon" according to several non Wikipedia sources I've read. Check out some of Christopher Tolkiens work if you actually care about this kind of thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but another staple that Tolkien made popular (ultimately created, really) is the whole Elf-Dwarf relationship.
Sometimes in amateur writing, just because the Dwarves are technical experts, it somehow conflicts with the nature-loving Elf. Not much of an elaborate conflict, so one has to assume it's a culture clash.
I really don't think it was that simple in the whole history of Middle Earth lol.
Originally posted by Cyhirae Some folks really do their own research into the myths and work off of them- only to have the Tolkien Fan Brigade say "OMG you thief!".
I can assure you, that if that happened, no one would be crying 'thief'.
Why is that? Because mythology; the origins, is like a blank canvas. All Tolkien did was colour it in. Subsequent authors didn't go to the source, but rather went to Tolkien's image, and painted over that. The next generation painted over that, and so on and so forth. So what you get is really a refinement of what Tolkien brought. That's why it's so easy to spot them.
If you went to the original source, the blank canvas, you too would see what Tolkien saw: the fundementals of what became high fantasy today. But you would not paint the picture Tolkien painted, because you are not Tolkien; your mind does not work like his. You would paint your own interpretation of what you've researched, and if you understand the concepts well enough, you will quite possibly create a refreshing and enjoyable epic that a target audience would enjoy.
Aside from that, if people really did research mythology in their own time, they wouldn't just look to old European stories. There's Asia to look at, there's Africa, there's Oceania, and there's the American continent. It seems strange to me if people from all corners of the globe focussed in on European mythology, which includes Elves (the semi-divine ones, not the small ones for some odd reason), Dwarves, and demi-gods in the vein of Greek stories.
Mythology; the origins, is like a blank canvas. All Tolkien did was colour it in. Subsequent authors didn't go to the source, but rather went to Tolkien's image, and painted over that. The next generation painted over that, and so on and so forth. So what you get is really a refinement of what Tolkien brought. That's why it's so easy to spot them. If you went to the original source, the blank canvas, you too would see what Tolkien saw: the fundementals of what became high fantasy today. But you would not paint the picture Tolkien painted, because you are not Tolkien; your mind does not work like his. You would paint your own interpretation of what you've researched, and if you understand the concepts well enough, you will quite possibly create a refreshing and enjoyable epic that a target audience would enjoy.
Well said. Elegant analogy.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Well WoW kinda borrowed ideas from LOTR, but I think Blizzard did a FAR better job of polishing their game and making it more attractive.
LOTRO lacks many small details and the smooth feel that WoW has, it also has ugly looking character models and animations. I think that is down to having a less experienced development team though, as well as a smaller budget.
Well WoW kinda borrowed ideas from LOTR, but I think Blizzard did a FAR better job of polishing their game and making it more attractive. LOTRO lacks many small details and the smooth feel that WoW has, it also has ugly looking character models and animations. I think that is down to having a less experienced development team though, as well as a smaller budget.
Smooth feel? It's intended that lotro combat is a bit slower then other mmo's. It wasn't an accident. Ugly looking character models and animations? I found them ten times better then in WoW. Matter of subjective point of view, nothing to do with how big the studio is.
WoW wins in details? That's another new argument for me, so far I only met wow-fans saying lotro has the details but wow is better overall. Well anyway this topic is a bit pointless, LOTRo is far closer to AC2 game in gameplay and interface then to WoW. So the subscribers usually either like lotro and dislike wow, or the other way around. But people that liked AC2 fell in love with LOTRO as well and actually a lot of people I met in lotro are ex-ac2 players.
But people that liked AC2 fell in love with LOTRO as well and actually a lot of people I met in lotro are ex-ac2 players.
/em raises hand
Here!
I'm in that group that's holding on to hope that Turbine will somehow find a way to bring AC2 back. Dunno if it'll happen, but I think you're right - there is something of AC2's "style" in LoTRO, I think. Not the the graphics, not the art style or characters, etc... just the overall "feel" of it. Maybe that's the sort of intangible thing about it that I like so much. I always loved the feel of playing AC2, as well.
And the references are great. Seeing "Cragstone" and "Frostfell" and such pop up from time to time is always great. There was a thread on the official forums where AC and AC2 players alike were commenting on the different "nods" to those games they see in LoTRO. Nothing major, mind you - as they couldn't be due to the lore - but you find it in incidental things, like NPC names, or in mobs, etc. Cool stuff.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I know the goblins in LOTRO use the exact same voice the drudges had in AC2, "Get him!". I never will forget that sound.
Also, not sure on this but the voice that does Gandalf is the same person that did the Vaults in AC2. I believe he also does the DM voice in DDO. He is very good. No offense to Gary Gygax, but he stinks at narrating a dungeon.
Comments
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
It didnt say he invented any of those things. It said middle earth and all of its inhabitants were created by him. Thats like saying he didnt create middle earth, because the earth was already known about. His lore, that he created is the basis on which the lore that warcraft uses. Your just splitting hairs.
Agreed completely. Tolkien's vision was to create a mythology for Europe, most specifically for Britain, since there really wasn't a coherent, unified mythology. That's what he wanted to do. He took things from many different places and changed them and created something new and wonderful. The reason he is considered the grandfather of high fantasy, however, has mostly to do with the fact that Gary Gygax and co. pretty much totally ripped off his stuff when they created their fantasy roleplaying game, which is what all these games have their roots in.
Like it or not, Tolkien's was really the first vision of the tall, slender, immortal and mysterious elf; the loud, raucous, but noble dwarf; the subtle and strong-willed hobbit, the vicious and terrible orc. All of these things, which are drawn off of by all things in today's high fantasy, were unified into a single vision of "high fantasy" by Mr. Tolkien.
Even though Gygax denies it, it's true. I mean, in the original D&D source books, halflings were called hobbits, until there was a legal problem and it was changed.
--------
"Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life."
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
Actully I think you missed his point, and I suspect that you aren't that familiar with the original sources you are comparing Tolkien's work to. I think what he meant was that Tolkien reinterpreted existing mythological sources and sythesized them into something that has been aped much more closely by subsequent RPGs and CRPGs that he aped any of his original sources.
For example "orc" and "goblin" are names for faeries from in European folklore. They bear little resemblance to the evil humanoids that appear in LoTRO. You could argue that Elves in Norse mythology were at least similar to Tolkien elves, but when you get into the details of the individual stories they were actually not all that similar either (often they are depicted as being closer to dwarves from tolkien). Hobbits have no relatives in any previous myths that I am aware of. Dwarves in Norse mythology, on the other hand, were very close to how Tolkien depicts them. So yeah, Tolkien didn't invent his dwarves. However, many of his other races were nearly purely his inventions, which he somewhat randomly applied names from germanic (mostly) folklore to.
When you look at susbequent fantasy, you can see that "Tolkien elves" "Tolkien goblins" ect. have been copied in nearly every detail by many subsequent authors. For example, if they had copied the original goblins of folklore, goblins would be a few inchees high, usually invisible, hide in your house, and either help with the cleaning or curdle your milk depending on how you treat them. That bears almost zero resemblance to the evil tribal humanoids of Tolkien's work or most RPGs.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
FWIW, D&D started as an offshoot of historical miniatures combat systems - the fantasy element included Germanic mythological creatures (and yes, some ideas from Tolkien's works, even if Gygax denies it). Primarily using vorgs/worgs, dragons, dwarves as cavalry, siege, and infantry units.
For historical, ya I'm a wee bit familiar with the original sources. Tolkien was brilliant. There's no doubt of that. But don't give him credit for something he himself said he didn't do.
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
I was waiting for someone to try playing "gotcha" with that...
Allow me to quote myself:
"First of all, The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, etc. is pretty much the undisputed "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy as we know it."
High Fantasy being the specific combination of Dwarves, Elves, Dragons, Orcs, Trolls, etc and their particular stereotypes, their lifestyles, etc. etc. defining a specific type of "alternate universe". Tolkien didn't *invent* those things, he did however combine them in such a way that has gone on to become the blueprint for High Fantasy, again, as we know it. I could also say his work is what popularized it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
FWIW, D&D started as an offshoot of historical miniatures combat systems - the fantasy element included Germanic mythological creatures (and yes, some ideas from Tolkien's works, even if Gygax denies it). Primarily using vorgs/worgs, dragons, dwarves as cavalry, siege, and infantry units.
For historical, ya I'm a wee bit familiar with the original sources. Tolkien was brilliant. There's no doubt of that. But don't give him credit for something he himself said he didn't do.
I'm sure you know exactly what I meant in my comment. Others seem to have gotten it without me spelling it out for them. Seems you're splitting hairs here just to have an argument.
And anyway, it still shows the fallacy in the post I was responding to, about how "LoTRO rips of the idea of elfves..." etc...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
News flash for you buckeroo, all these games have roughly the same game play. Take away LoTRO's music system and PvMP and the game play is roughly the same as EQ1, EQII, WoW, Vanguard and every other DIKU lvl based game there is.
LOTRO stands out by having prettier graphics, the first successful PvMP system, the first and only player generated music system and just a hell of a good community. It also has wide range game play options ( solo, group, raid, crafting, and even PvMP rewards) in order to get decent gear. All the while incorporating the wonderful Tolkein lore and giving the player small bit parts in what has to be the best fantasy world ever created.
The games smoothness, class balance, and overall lack of bugginess while being able to be played on a mid range system to achieve those wonderfull graphics is just icing on the cake.
There ya go.. thats the perfect way to put it.. strip away the little things devs think are making the games unique, and its all the same damn game.. No one accuses games of being a UO clone.. or EVE.. or even FFXI for that matter.. no one really tries to innovate their games in the genre anymore.. i think they all decided that one type of gameplay is the way to go, just make one or 2 small changes, re-skin it, and try and cash in. Maybe it would be nice to see clones of those 3 games...
OMG Another "this game is so much like WoW" thread.
Is anyone else sick of hearing this stuff? Do you WoW Fanbois really think WoW was the first game ever set up like this? Just because it may have been your first game you ever played doesn't make it the first. (and no, I'm not a WoW hater, just sick and tired of this crap)
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
--Aristotle
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
It didnt say he invented any of those things. It said middle earth and all of its inhabitants were created by him. Thats like saying he didnt create middle earth, because the earth was already known about. His lore, that he created is the basis on which the lore that warcraft uses. Your just splitting hairs.
Agreed completely. Tolkien's vision was to create a mythology for Europe, most specifically for Britain, since there really wasn't a coherent, unified mythology. That's what he wanted to do. He took things from many different places and changed them and created something new and wonderful. The reason he is considered the grandfather of high fantasy, however, has mostly to do with the fact that Gary Gygax and co. pretty much totally ripped off his stuff when they created their fantasy roleplaying game, which is what all these games have their roots in.
Like it or not, Tolkien's was really the first vision of the tall, slender, immortal and mysterious elf; the loud, raucous, but noble dwarf; the subtle and strong-willed hobbit, the vicious and terrible orc. All of these things, which are drawn off of by all things in today's high fantasy, were unified into a single vision of "high fantasy" by Mr. Tolkien.
Even though Gygax denies it, it's true. I mean, in the original D&D source books, halflings were called hobbits, until there was a legal problem and it was changed.
Ok. No one argues Tolkien started the whole "high fantasy" genre. That doesn't mean that something in a game based on his works isnt influenced by another game, that has come to be due to that. Tolkien wrote the books so it means Wow ripped him off? hardly. If anything, that game ripped him off. I'm pretty sure he didnt make it.
And didn't we already reach to point in this thread that just because someone uses a good idea doesnt mean its a slight to the creator? in the UI discussion? its what works so everyone uses it?
But yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere here. Tolkien started it, but its not his anymore. And you know how rediculous it sounds when people say " tolkein ripped of celtic mythos" , because he was inspired by it and made it his own? Thats how rediculous it sounds to the people on the other side of the argument when you say " Everyone since Tolkien is ripping him off", because the genre has been inspired by his work.
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
Once again, not I, nor anyone else is claiming Tolkien invented elves or dwarves. Nowhere is that even implied. I made special care to note that he is the "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy *as we know it* because I realize he didn't invent all those races, myths, etc. He did, however, create the specific setting of Middle Earth, bringing all those elements together, including complete languages, lore, events, etc... into what is now the key basis and inspiration for much of high fantasy in games, books, etc as we know it.
Here's an analogy by way of a hypothetical...
Say someone puts out a book, based on the Sasquatch, that becomes the definition by which people judge that myth/legend going forward. Does that mean the creator of that book invented the myth of Sasquatch? No. But they did greatly influence and popularize the way it would be portrayed going forward.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
Once again, not I, nor anyone else is claiming Tolkien invented elves or dwarves. Nowhere is that even implied. I made special care to note that he is the "grand-daddy" of High Fantasy *as we know it* because I realize he didn't invent all those races, myths, etc. He did, however, create the specific setting of Middle Earth, bringing all those elements together, including complete languages, lore, events, etc... into what is now the key basis and inspiration for much of high fantasy in games, books, etc as we know it.
Here's an analogy by way of a hypothetical...
Say someone puts out a book, based on the Sasquatch, that becomes the definition by which people judge that myth/legend going forward. Does that mean the creator of that book invented the myth of Sasquatch? No. But they did greatly influence and popularize the way it would be portrayed going forward.
Good analogy.
Futher, imagine that this author portrayed saquatches as three feet tall, green, and subsisting mostly on french toast. If a subsequent author potrays sasquatches as being three feet tall, green, and susbsisting mostly on toast with marmelade....is it more accurate to say that they were inspired by the original legend of the sasquatch, or our hypothetical author?
I know what I think, but I guess some folks here would beg to differ.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Guys you know what is it? This is asheron's call 2 from 2002. Check the minimap location together with health/mana pool. Skill list is on the bottom, to the right are bag icons and to the left options menu.
Looks like as in WoW? Aye cause WoW copied this interface completely. Lord of the Rings is build on the same graphic engine as Asheron's Call 2 so it's obvious they have identical interface. But compare the years they were released AC2 in 2002, WoW in 2004.
The thread should be called wow = ac2 under wow general discussion.
Thread over
Wow, ya, um, Tolkien didn't invent ANY of those things. He was a good story teller, and a fantastic linguist. All the creatures, races, stories, concepts, -everything- comes from various cultures around the world. Mostly from Celtic and prior Europe. Doesn't belittle what Tolkien did, but don't think for an instant that he invented it! He studied, loved, and wrote about those ancient cultures.
*cough* Beowulf *cough* The Iliad *cough* many more
He created the Orc.
Only the most famous creature in all of high fantasy.
Actually, elves were around a long time before Tolkien. I believe the mythos of elves originated from the germanic culture. You can also find similar myths from other parts of the world (i.e. aelf, sidhe, nymph, etc.).
The point of this is to show that Tolkien really wasn't as original as a lot of people give him credit for. He put together a bunch of myths from around the world in order to provide a framework for his story.
Originality is only a measure of how well you can put a spin on age old concepts.
Yes Tolkien's elf was derived from Norse mythology, much like a lot of Middle Earth. Yet his Elf is still quite different to what you find there.
That is not the same, however, as making some beautiful, tall humanoid with pointy ears, making it more in tune to nature than the average human, and calling it 'Moon Elf', 'Silver Elf', or the most famous one, 'Night Elf'. By the way the creation of 'new' elves begun with the Drow from D&D, who in turn was heavily inspired by Tolkien and various other fantasy successes before it.
What you're doing here is trying to take Tolkien off his much earned pedestal and stick him right next to every amateur high fantasy writer that ever lived. It doesn't work like that.
WoW and LOTRO share a common basic feel to their UI- and as many have pointed out? That basic UI concept's been around since long before both. With current available technology and controls available- there's only so much you can do with the games in ways of interaction. Plus it's just sound business wise to use a model that while offering some customization, it will not require a player putting effort into learning an entirely new system of basic controls. This makes picking up a new game more appealing to an already seasoned gamer, and can give a new gamer confidence about trying other games the company may produce.
As to the 'WoW ripped off Tolkien discussion'- Fair enough to say then Tolkien ripped off both Nordic and Celtic lore. By the by- Liquid47? he did not create Orcs, either. All he did was take them out of the ocean and make them a land bound monster. Essentially, Tolkien gathered up cues from several centuries of oral and the rare written myth, put it into the proverbial blender and assigned names and took spinoffs on ideas to vary them and combine them from various sources. He used a tried and true formula- but he did it well. His biggest contribution to the area of writing was the style in which he did it- meaning one did not have to be a scholar to keep up with it or get access to it. He was the grand-daddy of modern fantasy novel writing rather than of the genre and all it entails as his many fanboys and fangirls like to claim. If he could be said to have created any of the actual lore and races used in his works: it was the Hobbits. Even they still have elements of 'inspired by', though they are not 'taken from' as many of the other races are.
Originality is only a measure of how much you can put a spin on age old concepts.
That being said, it seems you guys are trying to pass off like you know a lot by vaguely glossing over information on how Tolkien has not created anything. You guys can thank Wikipedia for that (just looking at the page now and it seems a lot of points people have brought up coincidentally stem from Wikipedia lol).
Yes Tolkien was inspired by age old myth. How else would he have come up with ideas? How the hell does any writer do so without looking to the past?
But yes, if you look closely, Orcs seem to be inspired by creatures such as trolls and goblins. I mean, look -- both of those other fantasy creatures are in LotR anyway, one being larger than the average orc, the other being a smaller variation of the Orc. It's a tale of Good versus Evil and Race of Men need an equal. Et voila, an Orc!
You don't have to be a writer to think like one. Although it helps
.
Actually I was referring to the concept and name of "Orc" in general. It existed before Tolkien came along as a type of sea monster- and I never once said he was bad for having done what he did. I'll give the man his props for a well written tale and popularizing things that until then were largely region-only legends and myths. It's mostly his fanboys and fangirls who claim everyone who does anything in regards to elves, orcs and so on is "OMG ripping off Tolkien!!" my post was against.
My point in bringing that up is: Unless some game other than LOTRO is handing me a quest that says "Take this magic ring to that big volcano and throw it in before it revives the evil lord and helps him enslave the world!"- they are not "ripping off Tolkien" any more than Tolkien "ripped off" anyone else's work. Some folks really do their own research into the myths and work off of them- only to have the Tolkien Fan Brigade say "OMG you thief!".
Are you really trying to make this connection...
Orc, Ork, Orca (various common names for Orcinus orca, the killer whale): a 30 foot long 8 ton dolphin relative (a member of the familly Delphidae) that lives in the ocean and hunts in packs***
Orc (Tolkien fiction): evil tribal humanoids.
Yeah, all he did was take them out of the water and make them a land bound monster.
You do realize how silly that sounds?
In any case, I think Liquid47 has it right. No one works in a vacuum. It's debatable whether humans are capable of having a truly original idea (as in an idea that incorporates nothing that they have experienced, encountered in the past, heard of, or read about).
I would argue that whether something is "original" in the way the term is commonly used in speach and writing is more a matter of degree than kind. And as several of us have been saying over and over again, many subsequent authors copied Tolkien in much closer detail than Tolkien copied any of the literary or folklore sources that were in existence before the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.
For example, many later authors seem to have borrowed orcs, goblins, trolls, elves, and dwarves from Tolkien and modified them much less than Tolkien modified them when he borrowed them from folklore. Maybe they started with the same folklore sources and, by sheer coincidence, happened to decide to make nearly the exact same modifications as Tolkien (yeah, I mean, hardly any fantasy authors have even read the Lord of the Rings I would imagine...). But I personally think a much more parsimonious explanation is that they did in fact read Tolkein and borrow from him.
Was Tolkein "original" in the strictest definition of the word? No, but neither was Shakespeare, Homer, or Aristotle if you want to get that anal about what the word means (and do not take that to mean I would put Tolkien next to any of those luminaries, I'm just making a point). Was Tolkien more original than subsequent fantasy authors, RPG designers, and CRP game designers that copied many elements of his fantasy world (when designing their setting) with only minor modifications? Yes, I would say he was.
But as I've said "original or not" is a matter of degree rather than kind, and your degree may differ from mine.
***It's the only "sea monster" reference Tolkien seems to have been aware of if Wikipedia is to be believed, but I'm not sure about the citation that they use. In any case it's not the reference Tolkien intended. He was actually using a modification of an old english word for "demon" according to several non Wikipedia sources I've read. Check out some of Christopher Tolkiens work if you actually care about this kind of thing.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Are you really trying to make this connection...
Orc, Ork, Orca (various common names for Orcinus orca, the killer whale): a 30 foot long 8 ton dolphin relative (a member of the familly Delphidae) that lives in the ocean and hunts in packs***
Orc (Tolkien fiction): evil tribal humanoids.
Yeah, all he did was take them out of the water and make them a land bound monster.
You do realize how silly that sounds?
In any case, I think Liquid47 has it right. No one works in a vacuum. It's debatable whether humans are capable of having a truly original idea (as in an idea that incorporates nothing that they have experienced, encountered in the past, heard of, or read about).
I would argue that whether something is "original" in the way the term is commonly used in speach and writing is more a matter of degree than kind. And as several of us have been saying over and over again, many subsequent authors copied Tolkien in much closer detail than Tolkien copied any of the literary or folklore sources that were in existence before the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings.
For example, many later authors seem to have borrowed orcs, goblins, trolls, elves, and dwarves from Tolkien and modified them much less than Tolkien modified them when he borrowed them from folklore. Maybe they started with the same folklore sources and, by sheer coincidence, happened to decide to make nearly the exact same modifications as Tolkien (yeah, I mean, hardly any fantasy authors have even read the Lord of the Rings I would imagine...). But I personally think a much more parsimonious explanation is that they did in fact read Tolkein and borrow from him.
Was Tolkein "original" in the strictest definition of the word? No, but neither was Shakespeare, Homer, or Aristotle if you want to get that anal about what the word means (and do not take that to mean I would put Tolkien next to any of those luminaries, I'm just making a point). Was Tolkien more original than subsequent fantasy authors, RPG designers, and CRP game designers that copied many elements of his fantasy world (when designing their setting) with only minor modifications? Yes, I would say he was.
But as I've said "original or not" is a matter of degree rather than kind, and your degree may differ from mine.
***It's the only "sea monster" reference Tolkien seems to have been aware of if Wikipedia is to be believed, but I'm not sure about the citation that they use. In any case it's not the reference Tolkien intended. He was actually using a modification of an old english word for "demon" according to several non Wikipedia sources I've read. Check out some of Christopher Tolkiens work if you actually care about this kind of thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but another staple that Tolkien made popular (ultimately created, really) is the whole Elf-Dwarf relationship.
Sometimes in amateur writing, just because the Dwarves are technical experts, it somehow conflicts with the nature-loving Elf. Not much of an elaborate conflict, so one has to assume it's a culture clash.
I really don't think it was that simple in the whole history of Middle Earth lol.
I can assure you, that if that happened, no one would be crying 'thief'.
Why is that? Because mythology; the origins, is like a blank canvas. All Tolkien did was colour it in. Subsequent authors didn't go to the source, but rather went to Tolkien's image, and painted over that. The next generation painted over that, and so on and so forth. So what you get is really a refinement of what Tolkien brought. That's why it's so easy to spot them.
If you went to the original source, the blank canvas, you too would see what Tolkien saw: the fundementals of what became high fantasy today. But you would not paint the picture Tolkien painted, because you are not Tolkien; your mind does not work like his. You would paint your own interpretation of what you've researched, and if you understand the concepts well enough, you will quite possibly create a refreshing and enjoyable epic that a target audience would enjoy.
Aside from that, if people really did research mythology in their own time, they wouldn't just look to old European stories. There's Asia to look at, there's Africa, there's Oceania, and there's the American continent. It seems strange to me if people from all corners of the globe focussed in on European mythology, which includes Elves (the semi-divine ones, not the small ones for some odd reason), Dwarves, and demi-gods in the vein of Greek stories.
Well said. Elegant analogy.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Well WoW kinda borrowed ideas from LOTR, but I think Blizzard did a FAR better job of polishing their game and making it more attractive.
LOTRO lacks many small details and the smooth feel that WoW has, it also has ugly looking character models and animations. I think that is down to having a less experienced development team though, as well as a smaller budget.
WoW wins in details? That's another new argument for me, so far I only met wow-fans saying lotro has the details but wow is better overall. Well anyway this topic is a bit pointless, LOTRo is far closer to AC2 game in gameplay and interface then to WoW. So the subscribers usually either like lotro and dislike wow, or the other way around. But people that liked AC2 fell in love with LOTRO as well and actually a lot of people I met in lotro are ex-ac2 players.
REALITY CHECK
/em raises hand
Here!
I'm in that group that's holding on to hope that Turbine will somehow find a way to bring AC2 back. Dunno if it'll happen, but I think you're right - there is something of AC2's "style" in LoTRO, I think. Not the the graphics, not the art style or characters, etc... just the overall "feel" of it. Maybe that's the sort of intangible thing about it that I like so much. I always loved the feel of playing AC2, as well.
And the references are great. Seeing "Cragstone" and "Frostfell" and such pop up from time to time is always great. There was a thread on the official forums where AC and AC2 players alike were commenting on the different "nods" to those games they see in LoTRO. Nothing major, mind you - as they couldn't be due to the lore - but you find it in incidental things, like NPC names, or in mobs, etc. Cool stuff.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I know the goblins in LOTRO use the exact same voice the drudges had in AC2, "Get him!". I never will forget that sound.
Also, not sure on this but the voice that does Gandalf is the same person that did the Vaults in AC2. I believe he also does the DM voice in DDO. He is very good. No offense to Gary Gygax, but he stinks at narrating a dungeon.
Ok I've derailed this thread enough....
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.