Returning to VG: some comments

Elikal · September 2007

After the merge happend a short while ago, and since my new work catapulted me out of EQ2 (dont ask ) I thought I give VG another try. There were enough enjpoyable aspects in it right away, but some things made it sour to me so I had left. First I was kinda shocked to see ALL those many servers had been reduced to a mere four! Wow, I hadnt known it were so few! Once VG filled those over a dozen servers quite well... either way, the four remaining servers are quite buzzing with life, and it seems to be easy enough to find ppl, at least in the areas I visited in the last 2 days.

VG has also increased in stability, I didnt have any crashes. However, since I never had it deinstalled I had the same graphic settings, I didnt see a discernable speed boost, tbh. For me it was just as it had been 2 months ago. It was ok, but far from being fluid. I'd call it playable, but I know ppl who are used WOW fluidity would find it too slow. Maybe years of SWG and EQ2 have steeled me for lag and stuttering. The best components of VG are still the mostly beautiful landscape (with a few very ugly texures, mostly at buildings), and really interesting classes and the diverse world design.

Anyways, here is a list of a few small and big things I suggest to SOE to work on. Its highly personal, yes, but its what I miss comparing it to those MMOs I really loved, like SWG, EQ2, CoH and DAoC.

a) NPC voiceover: I am SO used to it from my many EQ2 years, I am too lazy to read, and it added a LOT of atmosphere to EQ2

b) NPCs look at you, also PC, as in EQ2; it makes the characters feel MUCH more alive, that player characters and NPCs turn their heads to each other. Some in VG do when you talk to them, but its too little.

c) NPCs need to be more animated. It still bugs me like hell to see so many NPCs nailed to the floor like wax dolls. The villages, castles and cities need more real city life, with merchants yelling, kid chasing, birds flying... you get the idea.

d) more haircuts! ^^

e) I always had the feeling VG was the most miser-like game ever. Even my lv 28 Pally still barely has 1g, and thats NOTHING compared to the prices of things. I really dont need to be gold tossed at me, but the feeling to be a poor sukker is too long lasting in VG. I gather endless rows of dull organs (they could at least not CALL them dull organs... maybe call them exciting organs, at least) and the like. Even very exotic loot usually is only worth a few copper, and that pretty much sucks. I feel a game should give players a certain level of coin to allow them buy a few funny or useful upgrades once and then. All of the big goals like house and boat and unaffordable with normal quest-style gameplay.

f) I am still somewhat irked with the corpse run. It doesnt really bother me on the surface, but I feel its a totally killer in dungeons. Walking ALL the way down AGAIN to continue the quests is SO dull. I personally would remove it entirely and keep a normal XP debt as its usually done in todays MMOs. I think a vast majority of MMO gamers are quite unwilling to handle CRs - all of the EQ1 vets I know for instance. CR is a dinosaur of MMO history.

g) add an optional auto-turn option. One of my friends is handicapped, and to such people its very difficult to play if characters dont have an option to automatically turn at the enemy. Also auto-react as option, so if you are attacked, you automatically turn to the next enemy (as in EQ2).

h) The map still needs a complete overhaul, its pretty useless as it is. First, I'd prefer a map where not-visited areas are dark, and gradually you see where you have been, pretty much with the detail level of the mapping system in LOTRO or EQ2. (Especially a dungeon map, which swaps from the overland map to a detailled dungeon map!

i) something feels amiss with the idle animations, I still feel the facial expressions of the characters are rather blank and dead, need s bit work

j) player character voices + emotes (a feature EQ2 has, it gaves the characters real depth)

k) I never liked this rift teleport system at all, and always favoured a system, where you have to unlock fixed places, by getting there for one time, like the WOW griffons. They would not need too many, maybe 6 per continent.

l) In some dungeons I have the feeling mobs roam too far, and too many of them. In EQ2 dungeons you always have one roamer in every area, to be aware of, but in VG you can easily catch MANY adds. Dungeons need conceibavle save corners, where ppl can move towards and pull mobs to.

There is a lot done for good in VG, but to rise again there is still much work to do.

luckdragon · September 2007

I'm stunned.

It really doesn't bother you that the furries have no tails?

Being an EQ2 player myself, I agree with everything you said. The world of EQ2 seems to be so much more alive and immersive.

Still, I think Vanguard has the potential to be even better if it can survive long enough. Unfortunately, the pace of updates so far has been far too slow to have much faith in that.

FischerBlack · September 2007

Just some friendly advice as far as making some coin goes - If your not into tradeskilling (you can make an endless fortune as a 50 crafter) my advice is to find a good named close to your level and farm it a bit with some friends. Decon the rare/heroic/legendary drops to dust, and advertise them in /auction.

Of course it depends on the tier and you need to be a bit lucky with the decon, but many T4 dusts go for 5-10g a piece or more, and many T5 dusts go for >1p.

Of course you could also harvest mats that are thin on the market at any given time (since Guild Halls went in Journeyman Stonemasons have been raking in cash), but if your not into crafting perhaps harvesting is not your thing also?

Basically, if you just interact with the 'NPC Economy' so to speak (cash from quest rewards, vendor trash etc) you will never get much coin, but if you find a way to get PLAYERS things that they want (house mats, boat mats, weapon/armour proc dusts etc) you will be a rich sob.

AbstractThou · September 2007

When playing the vanguard beta, my favorite part (and the most fun) was the fact Equipment and Coin was so rare.

I actually had to savor every copper, spending wisely and sparesely.

The result? Fun, the equipment was worth it, equipment was an "accomplishment", and it made the game a lot better because getting a good item, or even a basic item, was VERY rewarding.

Sadly, I then discovered the auctioneer, bought uncommon/rare equipment for cheap, and it quickly resorted back to the WoW infinite-money dull economy in ruins.

I come back to Vanguard, and it seems money is still rare, but the broker is so ridiculously expensive, it is bringing back the original feel.

Sadly, I doubt that's true. The broker probably still has good or "average" deals for good items.

I was very excited about this, because it made me feel like I did back in the EQ1 days. Equipment was actually something to be proud about, it was an achievment. Getting a new weapon in EQ1 was incredibly fun because it was such an acomplishment. Find a new weapon? Get a good quest weapon? Craft a weapon? Buy one from /auction? It was great!

IMO, the broker ruined a lot of the fun of equipments and achievments. Allowing players to sell/buy items at very very cheap prices OR average prices, makes equipment easy to obtain.

Long gone are the days where someone would /auction That they are crafting items, and you scrounge around to gather the money, ask "How much can I get for 3 platinum?" and them tell you "I'll give half a set for 3 platinum, a full set for 4." and spending ALL your money on a completely new, fashionable, good-looking, and great-stat set of armor.

Crafting felt PERSONAL when there weren't brokers. You advertised you were a crafter, and you crafted based on /tells.

Torak · September 2007

Originally posted by Elikal

After the merge happend a short while ago, and since my new work catapulted me out of EQ2 (dont ask ) I thought I give VG another try. There were enough enjpoyable aspects in it right away, but some things made it sour to me so I had left. First I was kinda shocked to see ALL those many servers had been reduced to a mere four! Wow, I hadnt known it were so few! Once VG filled those over a dozen servers quite well... either way, the four remaining servers are quite buzzing with life, and it seems to be easy enough to find ppl, at least in the areas I visited in the last 2 days.
VG has also increased in stability, I didnt have any crashes. However, since I never had it deinstalled I had the same graphic settings, I didnt see a discernable speed boost, tbh. For me it was just as it had been 2 months ago. It was ok, but far from being fluid. I'd call it playable, but I know ppl who are used WOW fluidity would find it too slow. Maybe years of SWG and EQ2 have steeled me for lag and stuttering. The best components of VG are still the mostly beautiful landscape (with a few very ugly texures, mostly at buildings), and really interesting classes and the diverse world design.
Anyways, here is a list of a few small and big things I suggest to SOE to work on. Its highly personal, yes, but its what I miss comparing it to those MMOs I really loved, like SWG, EQ2, CoH and DAoC.
a) NPC voiceover: I am SO used to it from my many EQ2 years, I am too lazy to read, and it added a LOT of atmosphere to EQ2
Unfortunately this is pretty standard for MMO's. Its sub par in the game industry but dispite the fact we pay a monthly fee, we still don't get voice overs.
b) NPCs look at you, also PC, as in EQ2; it makes the characters feel MUCH more alive, that player characters and NPCs turn their heads to each other. Some in VG do when you talk to them, but its too little.
Yeah, I notice that also, I end up talking to a lot of backs.
c) NPCs need to be more animated. It still bugs me like hell to see so many NPCs nailed to the floor like wax dolls. The villages, castles and cities need more real city life, with merchants yelling, kid chasing, birds flying... you get the idea.
I would think it would affect performance. The game is hardly able to keep from coming to a standstill with what it has. All sorts of moving objects would kill whatever FPS you do have. Somehow, I don't think this was any surprise to the devs and they planned on it. There are a few moving NPC, it looks average to me. A little less then some but more then the older games. None of it is very dynamic looking. I see a few npc dwarfs run by now and then or goblin npc's. No idea what they are doing but they sometimes dart off. The city thing bother me too. Silence. Maybe a theme in the backround but yeah, pretty much land of the MMO mutes. MMO devs really do a very poor job at sound. I can make a "livelier" town with my NWN2 editor. (again I don't know what performance impact it would have in this game. Generally speaking, the more stuff you put in the more it effects overall performance)
d) more haircuts! ^^
e) I always had the feeling VG was the most miser-like game ever. Even my lv 28 Pally still barely has 1g, and thats NOTHING compared to the prices of things. I really dont need to be gold tossed at me, but the feeling to be a poor sukker is too long lasting in VG. I gather endless rows of dull organs (they could at least not CALL them dull organs... maybe call them exciting organs, at least) and the like. Even very exotic loot usually is only worth a few copper, and that pretty much sucks. I feel a game should give players a certain level of coin to allow them buy a few funny or useful upgrades once and then. All of the big goals like house and boat and unaffordable with normal quest-style gameplay.
Can of worms, Although cash drops are a common gripe in some games. The problem with it being overly difficult is that it encourages farmers. Some players (and not a small number) will always opt out for easy cash rather then grind for it. Thats the other problem, it promotes mindless grinding to gain cash. As far as vendors and such, there needs to be something ingame to give players the tools they need to make money without being online 24/7 spamming or in a "shop mode" vendors are the only real solution. Ever play Lineage 2? Success in that game is totally dependent on mastering the economy, unfortunately there is no vendor system or auction house. There is a shop mode. You sit your little butt down and try to sell things or make things. It takes more time then grinding. I know, I made it to 60 fully decked out legit.
f) I am still somewhat irked with the corpse run. It doesnt really bother me on the surface, but I feel its a totally killer in dungeons. Walking ALL the way down AGAIN to continue the quests is SO dull. I personally would remove it entirely and keep a normal XP debt as its usually done in todays MMOs. I think a vast majority of MMO gamers are quite unwilling to handle CRs - all of the EQ1 vets I know for instance. CR is a dinosaur of MMO history.
Don't corpse run then. Summon your remains and pay for the repair. Same as any other game.
g) add an optional auto-turn option. One of my friends is handicapped, and to such people its very difficult to play if characters dont have an option to automatically turn at the enemy. Also auto-react as option, so if you are attacked, you automatically turn to the next enemy (as in EQ2).
h) The map still needs a complete overhaul, its pretty useless as it is. First, I'd prefer a map where not-visited areas are dark, and gradually you see where you have been, pretty much with the detail level of the mapping system in LOTRO or EQ2. (Especially a dungeon map, which swaps from the overland map to a detailled dungeon map!
The "map" is completely botched IMHO. There isn't a point of even having the one they have ingame. I use a UI mod myself. The whole Vanguard UI is junk
i) something feels amiss with the idle animations, I still feel the facial expressions of the characters are rather blank and dead, need s bit work
j) player character voices + emotes (a feature EQ2 has, it gaves the characters real depth)
And EQII is about the only MMO to have that. Who honestly looks at that stuff? Its "nice" but.....dunno, if you like it, more power to ya.
k) I never liked this rift teleport system at all, and always favoured a system, where you have to unlock fixed places, by getting there for one time, like the WOW griffons. They would not need too many, maybe 6 per continent.
I don't understand the reasoning behind the riftway system. It doesn't really make travel all that much faster or easier, in fact its a hassle. Between continents, yes...but doesn't that take away from the whole point of putting in those now useless boats? The whole travel concept in the game seems confused. The world is not "that big" where its going to take hours to get anywhere. Just about everyone has a horse, if you die, you have bind points everywhere. Towns are not as far apart as I thought they were. Although the map "looks" huge, its not as large as it appears once you start moving around. Its not near as large as AC's Dereth or L2's Aden. Maybe all three continents combine are bigger but you don't play the game that way, its all localized. Meaning you pretty much move and do quest locally where ever you are. You don't get quest that have you bouncing from continent to continent several times. There seem to be enough outpost and towns around so even if you do get bounced out there, you are never that far from something.
l) In some dungeons I have the feeling mobs roam too far, and too many of them. In EQ2 dungeons you always have one roamer in every area, to be aware of, but in VG you can easily catch MANY adds. Dungeons need conceibavle save corners, where ppl can move towards and pull mobs to.
Group

There is a lot done for good in VG, but to rise again there is still much work to do.
Overall, on a world scale it needs to be more dynamic. Right now its just "there". Grind if you want, log-off if not...your presence doesn't matter except to an "epeen head counter" looking to make a point on a forum somewhere. If a game is interesting, dynamic and fun, people will play whatever the travel rules are or customization is like.

Elikal · September 2007

Originally posted by FischerBlack

Just some friendly advice as far as making some coin goes - If your not into tradeskilling (you can make an endless fortune as a 50 crafter) my advice is to find a good named close to your level and farm it a bit with some friends. Decon the rare/heroic/legendary drops to dust, and advertise them in /auction.
Of course it depends on the tier and you need to be a bit lucky with the decon, but many T4 dusts go for 5-10g a piece or more, and many T5 dusts go for >1p.
Of course you could also harvest mats that are thin on the market at any given time (since Guild Halls went in Journeyman Stonemasons have been raking in cash), but if your not into crafting perhaps harvesting is not your thing also?
Basically, if you just interact with the 'NPC Economy' so to speak (cash from quest rewards, vendor trash etc) you will never get much coin, but if you find a way to get PLAYERS things that they want (house mats, boat mats, weapon/armour proc dusts etc) you will be a rich sob.

Thanks, I guess I try this a few times. Generally I feel a game should give *some* coinage, maybe like in EQ2. MAny things are still expensive to get, but you get the money to buy a few nice things. I dont want to sound like a EQ2 guru here, but it finally has made balancing quite well, so why learn it ALL anew?

Things like houses and boats are just FAR too expensive compared to the income. The starter boat and house should be affordable with a lv 25 normal incone or so. They can make the higher expensive then, again as in EQ2.

eugam · September 2007

Originally posted by Elikal

Thanks, I guess I try this a few times. Generally I feel a game should give *some* coinage, maybe like in EQ2. MAny things are still expensive to get, but you get the money to buy a few nice things. I dont want to sound like a EQ2 guru here, but it finally has made balancing quite well, so why learn it ALL anew?
Things like houses and boats are just FAR too expensive compared to the income. The starter boat and house should be affordable with a lv 25 normal incone or so. They can make the higher expensive then, again as in EQ2.

What you are talking about is not the game, players make those prices. SoE dosnt balance prices for player made items. Prices for the small boats are from 6 to 60 gold. Just like prices for EQ2 masters are from 4 to 40 platin. It is not the DEVs job to balance the players greed. Just dont buy that crap. And if you join a guild you can have almost anything for a few pennies. If you are not like joining a guild, then it is possible to find nice crafters with reasonable prices. Mount your horse and have a ride from Tanwar Galan to Southwatch to Refugee Camp and talk with the crafters there. You will be suprised.

EQ2 is not in a better state of balance when it comes to crafted items. Actually vanguard is much better balanced. You cant judge VG by the broker. LOL, you cant judge EQ2 by the broker either :P

metalcore · September 2007

Originally posted by Elikal
a) NPC voiceover: I am SO used to it from my many EQ2 years, I am too lazy to read, and it added a LOT of atmosphere to EQ2
I think this is a matter of opinion as I found the EQ2 ones annoying and its rare in a game, can't think of one other MMORP that does this
b) NPCs look at you, also PC, as in EQ2; it makes the characters feel MUCH more alive, that player characters and NPCs turn their heads to each other. Some in VG do when you talk to them, but its too little.
Agree this should happen
c) NPCs need to be more animated. It still bugs me like hell to see so many NPCs nailed to the floor like wax dolls. The villages, castles and cities need more real city life, with merchants yelling, kid chasing, birds flying... you get the idea.
In EQ1 they had some NPCs move around and they got bombared with players bugging them as missing. I even remember contacting a GM cos my trainer was missing for 2 weeks. IMO only some NPC should move, when its relevant and trainers, general stores etc should stay put
d) more haircuts! ^^
agree
e) I always had the feeling VG was the most miser-like game ever. Even my lv 28 Pally still barely has 1g, and thats NOTHING compared to the prices of things. I really dont need to be gold tossed at me, but the feeling to be a poor sukker is too long lasting in VG. I gather endless rows of dull organs (they could at least not CALL them dull organs... maybe call them exciting organs, at least) and the like. Even very exotic loot usually is only worth a few copper, and that pretty much sucks. I feel a game should give players a certain level of coin to allow them buy a few funny or useful upgrades once and then. All of the big goals like house and boat and unaffordable with normal quest-style gameplay.
Dont compare a gold in EQ2 to VG, they have completely different values in game. As for buying stuff, the only things expensive are mounts and plots, everything else depends on the economy of the server your on, which at the moment is still in flux after the merge.
f) I am still somewhat irked with the corpse run. It doesnt really bother me on the surface, but I feel its a totally killer in dungeons. Walking ALL the way down AGAIN to continue the quests is SO dull. I personally would remove it entirely and keep a normal XP debt as its usually done in todays MMOs. I think a vast majority of MMO gamers are quite unwilling to handle CRs - all of the EQ1 vets I know for instance. CR is a dinosaur of MMO history.
The point is, go to your corpse and get back MOST of your xp or suffer the debt. You can just reclaim it from the temple so get the best of both worlds.
g) add an optional auto-turn option. One of my friends is handicapped, and to such people its very difficult to play if characters dont have an option to automatically turn at the enemy. Also auto-react as option, so if you are attacked, you automatically turn to the next enemy (as in EQ2).
Agree they should add it as an option for disabled users
h) The map still needs a complete overhaul, its pretty useless as it is. First, I'd prefer a map where not-visited areas are dark, and gradually you see where you have been, pretty much with the detail level of the mapping system in LOTRO or EQ2. (Especially a dungeon map, which swaps from the overland map to a detailled dungeon map!
Agree, map needs work but I wouldn't want a dungeon map (personal preference)
i) something feels amiss with the idle animations, I still feel the facial expressions of the characters are rather blank and dead, need s bit work
Seem fine to me
j) player character voices + emotes (a feature EQ2 has, it gaves the characters real depth)
Would be nice
k) I never liked this rift teleport system at all, and always favoured a system, where you have to unlock fixed places, by getting there for one time, like the WOW griffons. They would not need too many, maybe 6 per continent.
Thats the same as rifts, except rifts take you to every zone of a similar level whatever continent which I think is better.
l) In some dungeons I have the feeling mobs roam too far, and too many of them. In EQ2 dungeons you always have one roamer in every area, to be aware of, but in VG you can easily catch MANY adds. Dungeons need conceibavle save corners, where ppl can move towards and pull mobs to.
I prefer more roamers, makes it more of a challenge

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