News flash, all classes have class specific abilities, Rogues without stealth is like a priest without healing, and rogues play an important role aside from DPS machine, they enhance the back up melee slots, gaps in group formation, think of them like a mechanic, or better yet like a troubleshooter. The next time you get a stray outside of Crowd Control range, or you need a hard hit on a soft target, just think how lucky you were to bring that rogue. The problems here is that there isnt a player alive that doesn't think his class is better, and that other classes are not needed, or that his class is under powered and other classes over powered, and since no two people will ever agree on any one thing, this topic has flaming troll poo written all over it and will most likely boil down to a screamfest about gankers, which you'd be surprised to learn not all gankers play rogues or thieves, some of the more notable and deadlier one's I've known or been killed by were warriors or rangers, not a single trickster rogue amoung them. Can you hear the cries of rangers as people change thier tune and claim the same things about them as they did about rogues.
Witch Hunts rarely have happy endings. Thanks [i]Dan[/i], Like the class doesn't suffer enough in design without people bringing up what little they do get to do.
I usually play a healer, but I love games with stealth - not for PvP, but for exploring. I like to see it all, at the level I'm at, and stealth <sometimes> can help me do that.
"Realistic" stealth should involve: having to stick to shadows; having to move very slowly - not forced by mechanics, but by giving a greater chance to be spotted if you move while something is looking in your direction; having to watch where you step, so as to not make noise. All possible in a game, though the sight/sound detection would be harder to code than the current "agro range". Hell, if an enemy can see you, it should either attack or call for help, or both! I'd say currently stealth is a design/coding problem.
1. I want a MMORPG version of THIEF. Call it THIEVES WORLD (pay Robert Aspirin for the rights) and have all the variations of classes and skills you want.
2. Conan was a Stealth Thief-type rogue (as opposed to an Assassin) in at least two of Robert E. Howards original stories.
3. As for this being a tired topic - yeah, it's like "PK - Good or Bad?" , but i guess the younger generation of gamers who haven't played mmogs for 10-15 years already may find the topic and debate new and useful . I guess. Kinda tired for us old mmog grognards (mmognards?) though, topics like this were resolved way back in EQ1.
Originally posted by Flummoxed 1. I want a MMORPG version of THIEF. Call it THIEVES WORLD (pay Robert Aspirin for the rights) and have all the variations of classes and skills you want. 2. Conan was a Stealth Thief-type rogue (as opposed to an Assassin) in at least two of Robert E. Howards original stories. 3. As for this being a tired topic - yeah, it's like "PK - Good or Bad?" , but i guess the younger generation of gamers who haven't played mmogs for 10-15 years already may find the topic and debate new and useful . I guess. Kinda tired for us old mmog grognards (mmognards?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grognard though, topics like this were resolved way back in EQ1.
Next up: "Color TV - Here To Stay or Just a Fad?"
You know how to counter nighttime shadow only stealth in a game like a hypothetical THIEF MMO, Turn your brightness up on your monitor.
Originally posted by uncus Definitely a lightning rod topic! I usually play a healer, but I love games with stealth - not for PvP, but for exploring. I like to see it all, at the level I'm at, and stealth <sometimes> can help me do that. "Realistic" stealth should involve: having to stick to shadows; having to move very slowly - not forced by mechanics, but by giving a greater chance to be spotted if you move while something is looking in your direction; having to watch where you step, so as to not make noise. All possible in a game, though the sight/sound detection would be harder to code than the current "agro range". Hell, if an enemy can see you, it should either attack or call for help, or both! I'd say currently stealth is a design/coding problem.
Ya, I say again....countering this in pvp is a simple as turning the brightness up on your monitor as someone said in another post.
Originally posted by GeneralCrazy In my option I rather dislike the whole aspect of things like Stealth, Stuns, Movement Impairing Affects, and Other Crowd Control as they all seem to usually cause long term imbalances in MMO's. I rather see more MMO's relay on using cover / movements and using more just one weapon most of the time using different types of weapons(speed/damage type) and not just equipping a single weapon to use all the time with only one damage type. I think the reason why things like Stealth, Stuns, Movement Impairing Affects, and Other Crowd Control are so popular design in MMO's is the fact that so many copy the basic game play design of mostly Melee / Caster classes with usually one Ranger Type Class by switching to a more Range Weapon / Caster type gameplay this would allow for more ability to use cover / movements as a core gameplay option.
I think these things are popular because they add variation and scope to gameplay and story. I mean like for instance...in a fantasy setting you want to hear about mages doing the things that mages/wizards/sorcerers do right? Like casting freezing spells or conjuring fireballs from the sky.
But, even with all the stuns and things that can make you immobile, the taking cover thing is something that should be there in addition to. Like being able to get away from direct line spells or arrows, bullets...wand blast. No way do I think a arrow should go around a tree and hit you.
what i find funny is people using WoW rogues as an example of stealth being overpowered when WoW rogues are one of the most gimped classes in that game..lol they use to be something to worry about but they was so nerfed they're just free kills anymore to most classes if not all. i can't think of too many classes that a rogue has an easy time with unless you count any classes 30+ lvls lower than them in STV? they did give them cloak of shadows at i think lvl 66? all that does is let them get away when i fight one on my druid nothing more. and my druid is in all quest gear and AH items haven't ran a single instance since TBC, just wasn't anything that i was just like "damn i really NEED to run that instance to get that!"
I have just started recently playing my rogue lately after taking a nice long break,tried playing him after i hit 70 on my druid i just couldn't he sucked too bad in comparison to the druid (druid had almost 3x ap and 2x the crit (made him for cat form, was faster lvling,crit=healing in feral no down time)
stealth in general tho isn't OP as long as there is ways (or classes) that counter it, and in WoW all classes COULD have a stealth if they wanted but its a matter of if you'd rather make money or have a million and 1 utility but broke (engineering) engineering has a "gnomish cloaking device" i never used it because it was my rogue that is my engineer, but there is also invis potions as well that alchemists make.
i liked Vanguard rogues better tho, in a group they could stay in stealth 100% in a fight wich lowered the cost of their attacks and upped the attacks dmg. stealth only breaks when hit directly i believe.all attacks had their own animation too, not just swing swing swing nothing different to a WoW rogue's attack animation.
The thing about WoW rogues is that it only takes one 70 in his 70 epics to 1-shot ambush crit you before the calls for NERF begin. There used to be cries to nerf shamans and the video people used as "evidence" was an enhancement shaman with Rag's hammer in full pvp epic gear. Umm, it's a legendary hammer and he's spec to do 2h damage, I would certainately hope he'd be doing insane damage!
I will say it again that WoW rogues are not the only stealthers in their game. Feral druids get talents for better stealth and any night elf can stealth. So if Blizzard did a "fix" to stealth it would affect druids and night elves as well.
Its a good thing that a rogue cannot 1 shot ambush anyone thats got any resemblance at all of a decent health pool. Not even a subtlety dagger specced rogue can do this and they have the hardest hitting ambush, plus if they are specced this way they really do suck at sustained dps and isn't raiding.
Most peoples complaints about rogues is the stunlocks. There is a counter to this however which is the pvp trinket and using it properly but most people don't use it the right time. The other rogue counter which I mentioned in a previous post was getting more stamina gear, and believe me having 10k plus health goes a LONG way to surviving and defeating a rogue.
In short rogues are not overpowered and do not need any nerfs whatsoever. People who cry nerf to rogues have never played one or are just too lazy to learn how to defeat one. There are other classes that need nerfs in pvp before a rogue, mages and druids come to mind with 7k plus pyros and 2500 damage mangles from a class that can stealth and heal and have way more armor than any warrior among other things.
Stealth and Crowd Control will always be major issues causing much debate...as the online gaming community becomes more evolved they will demand a much more sensible dynamic approach to gameplay over time without including these overpowered gimped skills. This is long overdue!
I agree with the article. I love stealth classes because grinding some stupid AI mob does not make me feel big and strong like most people who like the warrior or tank classes and shiny armour and PvE because they like to win.
I like the dynamic PvP and simply fun adrenaline crazy yet hard play style. unfortunately so do many people. hopefully in future games like AoC the assassin class looks MUCH more difficult to play, and classes that can skill into detection (awareness) can detect stealthed players.
Oh boy, here we go again. Stealth as its done right now, in every game, has it's pros and cons, and a deluge of cry babies sobbing about how green the field is on the other side. Here's a prime example:
It's hard for me to consider the stealth ability anything but over powered.
I'll use the most common example, and probably the one most MMO players are familiar with, the Rogue class from WoW...
Rogues in WoW have the potential to be exceptionally powerful in PVE, especially in the raid environment. Some of our top DPS in raids before I opened my eyes and stopped playing WoW were the Rogues. Not only could they out damage even our top mages and warlocks (depending on the fight) but if the fight went south they could simply vanish and avoid repair costs from the wipe. So in WoW, I'd have to disagree with the OP that Rogues are "generally" less viable and powerful for PVE play.
Rogues in WoW are also some of the best at farming. Why? They can kill a single target very, very quickly, then vanish/stealth to rest up before the next fight. A skilled Rogue can farm for hours with minimal resting much more efficiently then most if not all other classes in WoW.
In PVP, Rogues can easily be defeated if you are skilled but only under optimal conditions. Their ability to stealth and choose when to strike makes them invaluable in any PVP environment, be it the Arena, the Battlegrounds, or open world PVP. Even if they are losing, they can always vanish, heal up a bit, the strike from the shadows again at an opportune time.
This is a classic example of someone who has no clue what they're talking about, they complain about a tiny sliver of what they percieve reality to be, dismissing anything that is said to counter it because it doesn't support their complaint. This poster isn't alone in this mentality, so I don't feel any animosity towards him in particular, but I do tire of the mentality as a whole that is quick to insulate themselves with excuses. I would go on at length at how flawed his logic (and many who think exactly the same) is about WoW Rogues, but the fact is it's not really worth my time. People like this see what they choose to see, not what the facts are, and until they are willing to level up a Rogue and expierence the challenges first hand, they will have no clue, they will only see what they wish to.
I 've leveled a Mage, Druid, Rogue, and Warrior all to 70, and every other class to 60, and almost every gripe about every class' <insert overpowered FOTM complaint> that one sees so often on a variety of message boards, is based entirely on whinning. Play the other classes and learn their weaknesses, or learn not to suck at your own class. I've sucked at my own class, so I am well acquainted with the embarassment of the learning curve, however it makes you a much more able player and is a far more mature approach then crying on message boards about somethign someone else can do. The only other solution is to embrace UO's character system where there is no classes, and then everyone will have the "PvP skillset" to let them gank and be clones of each other. Different classes have strengths and weaknesses, learn to identify and play to both and all this griping evaporates.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
1. The main poster is correct when we can and smart rogue do pick their targets very carefully and I only would fight when I know I could win. If given the option everyone in every class would do the same thing point blank. So simply do not blame rogue for using all of their abilities.
2. Because of #1 it also gave rogues significate advantage in all PvP encounters, of course so does warriors armor and massive hit points, so does casters cripling spells and polymorph. In a game like WoW with the way PvP is set up you should always expect and be ready for a rogue to be watching you at anytime. Don't blame the class or the people who play them just because you dropped the ball.
3. At the end of the day rogues have no armor and very little staying capability. If you can draw out the fight longer then a few seconds we are toast.
That is all I am going to say for this witch hunt.
"And thus I clothe my naked villany/ with old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ/ and seem a saint when most I play the devil." Shakespeare's Richard III Act I Scene 3.
A lot of the reasons I enjoy stealth classes, especially for pvp, is that it allows me to solo. I don't have endless hours to devote to finding that perfect group to run with, etc and so on.
In DAOC I loved my ranger cause I could log on, go out and pick my fights, or hunt other stealthers, etc. I didn't need a ton of other people to help me.
On the flip side, if I'd run out on my caster or bard..I couldn't do anything by myself, and I got bored really fast.
It kinda sucks after awhile when you need groups to do everything, but don't have the time for groups.
Stealth should be defined as the inability of MMO developers to achieve balance in pvp. Every MMO that I have played with the stealth ability has suffered from constant imbalance. UO struggled with stealth for some time before they got it under control, DAoC never did learn how to do stealth correctly. Stealth is probably Wow's greatest weakness. Thief on the other hand did stealth well. I completely disagree with the OP about implementing a complex stealth. Explain to me how a character can stealth in broad daylight in the middle of a field? A simple approach just leads to gankers galore. I do agree with the OP that stealth should be hard to play, it is far too easy in many of the MMO's. Even Eve suffers from stealth as it's poor implementation of cloaking allows cloaked ships to be literally impossible to find and they can stay cloaked forever. Maybe someday a MMO will come along and implement a stealth system we can laud instead of complain about.
You obviously havent played eve recently as stealthed ships can now be scanned with specialist probes.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Proponents of stealth claim that it is vital to a well rounded system and that the many disadvantages heaped on most of the sneaking classes/archetypes offsets the power of their chosen professions. Those opposed to it claim it’s unrealistic, unnecessary and general used by gankers and greifers to have fun at the expense of others.
I think stealth issues emerge from limitations in the dice-roll combat model of most MMORPGs and the wide field of view required in FPSs.
The foundation of stealth is targeting. In a a dice-roll combat model one clicks, tabs, hotkeys etc. to target. The combat is then reduced to a montecarlo experiment in which the roll of stealth is minimized or eliminated. In a FPS the issue of targeting is also an issue but here the problem comes from having someone persistently in stealth or modeling issues in which stealth is hacked away.
As an amateur magician, i've learned that real world stealth is possible because attention is focused elsewhere not because it's invisible. In an MMO this isn't easily replicable because the game's FOV covers a wide area and because areas within the viewable area (the screen) receive greater attention. Players focus on their screen not on the area surrounding it. The players focus is in a narrow 15-30° arc in front of them. The screen content however represents a 90+ angle of the virtual world. For stealth to be more "real", Games need to simulate a more narrow focus when stealth is in play.
The simple step of making stealth players invisible or not targetable when they are outside an opponents narrow field of view would resolve most stealth complaints.
To reveal a stealthed player, an opponent would only need to change his facing. Stealth players must be mindful of their opponent's facings and plan accordingly, The effect of sound, muzzle flash, and visible spell effects on balance would also need to be considered.
It's hard for me to consider the stealth ability anything but over powered. I'll use the most common example, and probably the one most MMO players are familiar with, the Rogue class from WoW...
It's overpowered in WOW because of every situation around it.
There's litle or no way to scout for rogues.
There's few if any ways to reveal them before hand.
Not only do they get the surprise attack but the game mechanics favor rogues, allowing them to pass through their target to get behind them for their overpowered attacks rather than try to go around.
Stealth, like any other MMO feature can be done well or done poorly. Stealth is going to be overpowered in almost any class-based MMO, as the counters to it will almost always be limited to specific classes. This makes certain vlasses defenseless against stealthers.In skill-based games those that choose to protect themselves through various methods often can do so, often by sacrificing points that would have gone to other skills.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
News flash, all classes have class specific abilities, Rogues without stealth is like a priest without healing, and rogues play an important role aside from DPS machine, they enhance the back up melee slots, gaps in group formation, think of them like a mechanic, or better yet like a troubleshooter. The next time you get a stray outside of Crowd Control range, or you need a hard hit on a soft target, just think how lucky you were to bring that rogue. The problems here is that there isnt a player alive that doesn't think his class is better, and that other classes are not needed, or that his class is under powered and other classes over powered, and since no two people will ever agree on any one thing, this topic has flaming troll poo written all over it and will most likely boil down to a screamfest about gankers, which you'd be surprised to learn not all gankers play rogues or thieves, some of the more notable and deadlier one's I've known or been killed by were warriors or rangers, not a single trickster rogue amoung them. Can you hear the cries of rangers as people change thier tune and claim the same things about them as they did about rogues.
Witch Hunts rarely have happy endings. Thanks [i]Dan[/i], Like the class doesn't suffer enough in design without people bringing up what little they do get to do.
I agree, they have already nerfed away the other thief abilities like Lock picking and trap detection which only matters in DDO today.
I don't gank people unless they deserve it (like higher ups killing noobs or similar), I want my fights fair but i still like stealth. But I mostly use it to protect myself from gankers myself.
But their should be specific thief skills in MMOs, every single pen and paper game have them and they work fine. Of course should there also be stuff for other players also.
MMOs today is just about combat, stealth is actually the only thing left that helps you avoid it.
I want a MMO based on the "Thie" single player game, or at least that mechanic as part of a greater one.
Comments
Amen!
Definitely a lightning rod topic!
I usually play a healer, but I love games with stealth - not for PvP, but for exploring. I like to see it all, at the level I'm at, and stealth <sometimes> can help me do that.
"Realistic" stealth should involve: having to stick to shadows; having to move very slowly - not forced by mechanics, but by giving a greater chance to be spotted if you move while something is looking in your direction; having to watch where you step, so as to not make noise. All possible in a game, though the sight/sound detection would be harder to code than the current "agro range". Hell, if an enemy can see you, it should either attack or call for help, or both! I'd say currently stealth is a design/coding problem.
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
1. I want a MMORPG version of THIEF. Call it THIEVES WORLD (pay Robert Aspirin for the rights) and have all the variations of classes and skills you want.
2. Conan was a Stealth Thief-type rogue (as opposed to an Assassin) in at least two of Robert E. Howards original stories.
3. As for this being a tired topic - yeah, it's like "PK - Good or Bad?" , but i guess the younger generation of gamers who haven't played mmogs for 10-15 years already may find the topic and debate new and useful . I guess. Kinda tired for us old mmog grognards (mmognards?) though, topics like this were resolved way back in EQ1.
Next up: "Color TV - Here To Stay or Just a Fad?"
You know how to counter nighttime shadow only stealth in a game like a hypothetical THIEF MMO, Turn your brightness up on your monitor.
Ya, I say again....countering this in pvp is a simple as turning the brightness up on your monitor as someone said in another post.
I think these things are popular because they add variation and scope to gameplay and story. I mean like for instance...in a fantasy setting you want to hear about mages doing the things that mages/wizards/sorcerers do right? Like casting freezing spells or conjuring fireballs from the sky.
But, even with all the stuns and things that can make you immobile, the taking cover thing is something that should be there in addition to. Like being able to get away from direct line spells or arrows, bullets...wand blast. No way do I think a arrow should go around a tree and hit you.
what i find funny is people using WoW rogues as an example of stealth being overpowered when WoW rogues are one of the most gimped classes in that game..lol they use to be something to worry about but they was so nerfed they're just free kills anymore to most classes if not all. i can't think of too many classes that a rogue has an easy time with unless you count any classes 30+ lvls lower than them in STV? they did give them cloak of shadows at i think lvl 66? all that does is let them get away when i fight one on my druid nothing more. and my druid is in all quest gear and AH items haven't ran a single instance since TBC, just wasn't anything that i was just like "damn i really NEED to run that instance to get that!"
I have just started recently playing my rogue lately after taking a nice long break,tried playing him after i hit 70 on my druid i just couldn't he sucked too bad in comparison to the druid (druid had almost 3x ap and 2x the crit (made him for cat form, was faster lvling,crit=healing in feral no down time)
stealth in general tho isn't OP as long as there is ways (or classes) that counter it, and in WoW all classes COULD have a stealth if they wanted but its a matter of if you'd rather make money or have a million and 1 utility but broke (engineering) engineering has a "gnomish cloaking device" i never used it because it was my rogue that is my engineer, but there is also invis potions as well that alchemists make.
i liked Vanguard rogues better tho, in a group they could stay in stealth 100% in a fight wich lowered the cost of their attacks and upped the attacks dmg. stealth only breaks when hit directly i believe.all attacks had their own animation too, not just swing swing swing nothing different to a WoW rogue's attack animation.
The thing about WoW rogues is that it only takes one 70 in his 70 epics to 1-shot ambush crit you before the calls for NERF begin. There used to be cries to nerf shamans and the video people used as "evidence" was an enhancement shaman with Rag's hammer in full pvp epic gear. Umm, it's a legendary hammer and he's spec to do 2h damage, I would certainately hope he'd be doing insane damage!
I will say it again that WoW rogues are not the only stealthers in their game. Feral druids get talents for better stealth and any night elf can stealth. So if Blizzard did a "fix" to stealth it would affect druids and night elves as well.
Its a good thing that a rogue cannot 1 shot ambush anyone thats got any resemblance at all of a decent health pool. Not even a subtlety dagger specced rogue can do this and they have the hardest hitting ambush, plus if they are specced this way they really do suck at sustained dps and isn't raiding.
Most peoples complaints about rogues is the stunlocks. There is a counter to this however which is the pvp trinket and using it properly but most people don't use it the right time. The other rogue counter which I mentioned in a previous post was getting more stamina gear, and believe me having 10k plus health goes a LONG way to surviving and defeating a rogue.
In short rogues are not overpowered and do not need any nerfs whatsoever. People who cry nerf to rogues have never played one or are just too lazy to learn how to defeat one. There are other classes that need nerfs in pvp before a rogue, mages and druids come to mind with 7k plus pyros and 2500 damage mangles from a class that can stealth and heal and have way more armor than any warrior among other things.
Hello all,
Stealth and Crowd Control will always be major issues causing much debate...as the online gaming community becomes more evolved they will demand a much more sensible dynamic approach to gameplay over time without including these overpowered gimped skills. This is long overdue!
I agree with the article. I love stealth classes because grinding some stupid AI mob does not make me feel big and strong like most people who like the warrior or tank classes and shiny armour and PvE because they like to win.
I like the dynamic PvP and simply fun adrenaline crazy yet hard play style. unfortunately so do many people. hopefully in future games like AoC the assassin class looks MUCH more difficult to play, and classes that can skill into detection (awareness) can detect stealthed players.
My blog:
Oh boy, here we go again. Stealth as its done right now, in every game, has it's pros and cons, and a deluge of cry babies sobbing about how green the field is on the other side. Here's a prime example:
It's hard for me to consider the stealth ability anything but over powered.
I'll use the most common example, and probably the one most MMO players are familiar with, the Rogue class from WoW...
Rogues in WoW have the potential to be exceptionally powerful in PVE, especially in the raid environment. Some of our top DPS in raids before I opened my eyes and stopped playing WoW were the Rogues. Not only could they out damage even our top mages and warlocks (depending on the fight) but if the fight went south they could simply vanish and avoid repair costs from the wipe. So in WoW, I'd have to disagree with the OP that Rogues are "generally" less viable and powerful for PVE play.
Rogues in WoW are also some of the best at farming. Why? They can kill a single target very, very quickly, then vanish/stealth to rest up before the next fight. A skilled Rogue can farm for hours with minimal resting much more efficiently then most if not all other classes in WoW.
In PVP, Rogues can easily be defeated if you are skilled but only under optimal conditions. Their ability to stealth and choose when to strike makes them invaluable in any PVP environment, be it the Arena, the Battlegrounds, or open world PVP. Even if they are losing, they can always vanish, heal up a bit, the strike from the shadows again at an opportune time.
This is a classic example of someone who has no clue what they're talking about, they complain about a tiny sliver of what they percieve reality to be, dismissing anything that is said to counter it because it doesn't support their complaint. This poster isn't alone in this mentality, so I don't feel any animosity towards him in particular, but I do tire of the mentality as a whole that is quick to insulate themselves with excuses. I would go on at length at how flawed his logic (and many who think exactly the same) is about WoW Rogues, but the fact is it's not really worth my time. People like this see what they choose to see, not what the facts are, and until they are willing to level up a Rogue and expierence the challenges first hand, they will have no clue, they will only see what they wish to.
I 've leveled a Mage, Druid, Rogue, and Warrior all to 70, and every other class to 60, and almost every gripe about every class' <insert overpowered FOTM complaint> that one sees so often on a variety of message boards, is based entirely on whinning. Play the other classes and learn their weaknesses, or learn not to suck at your own class. I've sucked at my own class, so I am well acquainted with the embarassment of the learning curve, however it makes you a much more able player and is a far more mature approach then crying on message boards about somethign someone else can do. The only other solution is to embrace UO's character system where there is no classes, and then everyone will have the "PvP skillset" to let them gank and be clones of each other. Different classes have strengths and weaknesses, learn to identify and play to both and all this griping evaporates.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I have a level 60 rogue in WOW.
1. The main poster is correct when we can and smart rogue do pick their targets very carefully and I only would fight when I know I could win. If given the option everyone in every class would do the same thing point blank. So simply do not blame rogue for using all of their abilities.
2. Because of #1 it also gave rogues significate advantage in all PvP encounters, of course so does warriors armor and massive hit points, so does casters cripling spells and polymorph. In a game like WoW with the way PvP is set up you should always expect and be ready for a rogue to be watching you at anytime. Don't blame the class or the people who play them just because you dropped the ball.
3. At the end of the day rogues have no armor and very little staying capability. If you can draw out the fight longer then a few seconds we are toast.
That is all I am going to say for this witch hunt.
"And thus I clothe my naked villany/ with old odd ends stolen forth from holy writ/ and seem a saint when most I play the devil." Shakespeare's Richard III Act I Scene 3.
A lot of the reasons I enjoy stealth classes, especially for pvp, is that it allows me to solo. I don't have endless hours to devote to finding that perfect group to run with, etc and so on.
In DAOC I loved my ranger cause I could log on, go out and pick my fights, or hunt other stealthers, etc. I didn't need a ton of other people to help me.
On the flip side, if I'd run out on my caster or bard..I couldn't do anything by myself, and I got bored really fast.
It kinda sucks after awhile when you need groups to do everything, but don't have the time for groups.
D.
You obviously havent played eve recently as stealthed ships can now be scanned with specialist probes.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
I think stealth issues emerge from limitations in the dice-roll combat model of most MMORPGs and the wide field of view required in FPSs.
The foundation of stealth is targeting. In a a dice-roll combat model one clicks, tabs, hotkeys etc. to target. The combat is then reduced to a montecarlo experiment in which the roll of stealth is minimized or eliminated. In a FPS the issue of targeting is also an issue but here the problem comes from having someone persistently in stealth or modeling issues in which stealth is hacked away.
As an amateur magician, i've learned that real world stealth is possible because attention is focused elsewhere not because it's invisible. In an MMO this isn't easily replicable because the game's FOV covers a wide area and because areas within the viewable area (the screen) receive greater attention. Players focus on their screen not on the area surrounding it. The players focus is in a narrow 15-30° arc in front of them. The screen content however represents a 90+ angle of the virtual world. For stealth to be more "real", Games need to simulate a more narrow focus when stealth is in play.
The simple step of making stealth players invisible or not targetable when they are outside an opponents narrow field of view would resolve most stealth complaints.
To reveal a stealthed player, an opponent would only need to change his facing. Stealth players must be mindful of their opponent's facings and plan accordingly, The effect of sound, muzzle flash, and visible spell effects on balance would also need to be considered.
It's overpowered in WOW because of every situation around it.
There's litle or no way to scout for rogues.
There's few if any ways to reveal them before hand.
Not only do they get the surprise attack but the game mechanics favor rogues, allowing them to pass through their target to get behind them for their overpowered attacks rather than try to go around.
Stealth, like any other MMO feature can be done well or done poorly. Stealth is going to be overpowered in almost any class-based MMO, as the counters to it will almost always be limited to specific classes. This makes certain vlasses defenseless against stealthers.In skill-based games those that choose to protect themselves through various methods often can do so, often by sacrificing points that would have gone to other skills.
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In my opinion, this is how stealth should work.
"Oh look, a big tree! I'm going to hide behind it until my prey walks along this road."
For this to work, there would have to be limited ways of detecting other players through the UI - that means no floating names or dots on the minimap.
Edit: In a fantasy game, of course. I like EVE's way of doing it in a sci-fi setting.
I agree, they have already nerfed away the other thief abilities like Lock picking and trap detection which only matters in DDO today.
I don't gank people unless they deserve it (like higher ups killing noobs or similar), I want my fights fair but i still like stealth. But I mostly use it to protect myself from gankers myself.
But their should be specific thief skills in MMOs, every single pen and paper game have them and they work fine. Of course should there also be stuff for other players also.
MMOs today is just about combat, stealth is actually the only thing left that helps you avoid it.
I want a MMO based on the "Thie" single player game, or at least that mechanic as part of a greater one.
Stealth ability and open world pvp are boring.
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