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Why bother catering to PVE'ers...
On Asheron's Call forums someone was saying Darktide was least populated server back in the day (I wasnt there was playing FPS). Okay, but look at what server is still kickin' now? Darktide
I've always said PVPers create fun for each other. We understand what player run is all about (well those of us thats been playing PVP games in other genres at least).
Surely developers can significantly reduce their costs by simply focusing on crafting and PVP. Seriously, the PVE'ers all they gonna do is exhaust all the quests, scream for more quests and raids and more powerful gear so they can click one button and burry those wit skill. If you dont cater to that they will simply depart back to EQ2/WoW/LOTRO anyway which are games that will always keep adding more powerful gear
sure some stay, but those will be the rare few that understands what a sandbox is all bout
perhaps its better they only put in a bare minimum of quests? just enough to entertain PVPers during downtimes. And crafting of course. Crafters are self directed I like them
Comments
I put none of the above, because you dont have a "both" option. You may need to read alittle more about Darkfall, but it does need PVE content. A great game needs to be balanced, and have depth too it. You cant compare pve in the game to pve in games like WoW ect... In Darkfall pve with encourage pvp. This is simply because areas of "rare" or "good drop" pve will be highly contested therefore creating pvp. Also monster arnt going to drop super uber gear. It has been stated that the most powerful monsters will drop reagents for that crafters can use to make the most powerful items. And there is no way to focus only on pve in this game, unless your a pure crafter. Because if you want to do quests, sooner or later your gunna come across someone who wants to kill you, so youll have to participate in pvp. I look forward to the pve and pvp in this game, thier going to complement each other well.
Edit* And i mean cmon its already pvp anywere with full dropping of loot on death(in every server everywere), how much more focused on pvp can ya get?
Edit 2* I see you changed the poll on me
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Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
Are u crazy........more money does not mean more pvp and pve systems lol. World of Warcraft being a prime example.......
Also pve in Darkfall will not get your to the "top" of pvp. Pve isnt going to help you in pvp to the extent it does in other, gearbased, games. Its all about player skill..
Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
Are u crazy........more money does not mean more pvp and pve systems lol. World of Warcraft being a prime example.......
Oh so "free" Battlgrounds and the New Arena systems aren't PVP systems? Oh and the open PVP in Nagrand and pretty much all over outlands wasn't more PVP content. I'm not saying it's the best...by any means. I'm just saying these systems were introduce and money was spent on them because the players were paying monthly for the game and wanted more content. If you don't make money you can't afford a dev team to work on all new pve and pvp systems. You don't need to buy anything else to enjoy any of these systems. Open PVP and Arenas can be fought without TBC.
This is not to mention that due to the money from PVE content in EQ2 they pretty much put dev time into an entire PVP system and server. So yea, these two games are prime examples of money = more PVP content.
Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
Good post exactly EVE pushed PVE to the back burner! Its repititive just fighting ships in space. very simple. This is what Darkfall should do I agree on that. just reuse a few mobs and thats it. focus on PVP.
in regards to WoW and Vanguard and such those are PVE based games. They depend on dice rolls. That is not player skill. aim/dodge is player skill or at least go 'skill based system'
(hm, wonder if I should have created this thread I dont want to be banned the mods have a heavy fist here)
Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
Are u crazy........more money does not mean more pvp and pve systems lol. World of Warcraft being a prime example.......
Oh so "free" Battlgrounds and the New Arena systems aren't PVP systems? Oh and the open PVP in Nagrand and pretty much all over outlands wasn't more PVP content. I'm not saying it's the best...by any means. I'm just saying these systems were introduce and money was spent on them because the players were paying monthly for the game and wanted more content. If you don't make money you can't afford a dev team to work on all new pve and pvp systems. You don't need to buy anything else to enjoy any of these systems. Open PVP and Arenas can be fought without TBC.
This is not to mention that due to the money from PVE content in EQ2 they pretty much put dev time into an entire PVP system and server. So yea, these two games are prime examples of money = more PVP content.
Haha ok sorry I mean quality pvp!!! Not some instanced grind. So i change my statement to more pve =/= QUALITY pvp content.
Darn you sure got me lol.
Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
Good post exactly EVE pushed PVE to the back burner! Its repititive just fighting ships in space. very simple. This is what Darkfall should do I agree on that. just reuse a few mobs and thats it. focus on PVP.
in regards to WoW and Vanguard and such those are PVE based games. They depend on dice rolls. That is not player skill. aim/dodge is player skill or at least go 'skill based system'
(hm, wonder if I should have created this thread I dont want to be banned the mods have a heavy fist here)
I seriously doubt you would get banned. Nah nothing like that. Back on topic. It's really difficult to make a traditional style RPG game not rely on dice rolls the last really successful game to do that with the traditional sense of story and quests and skill was Oblivion. It really opened the gates to that active skill base combat that also relyed on what skills and abilities your character had. However, I don't see any MMORPG games coming down that pipe that use this kind of real-time system. If there was I would be all over the PVP with very little PVE. EvE is special case because you can make buttloads of money till you get a BS doing the PVE missions then you can go and own space. Own space...Where do I sign up!
Honestly thats why there are alot of good PVP games out there. I'm tired of playing CS and Diablo when there is nothing to gain. Same map, same town, same everything no matter how many people I kill repedatively. But let my clan overrun someones tower or castle(DAOC) or take over their towns and citys by running them off(WWII Online) and that is a fun system.
Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
Good post exactly EVE pushed PVE to the back burner! Its repititive just fighting ships in space. very simple. This is what Darkfall should do I agree on that. just reuse a few mobs and thats it. focus on PVP.
in regards to WoW and Vanguard and such those are PVE based games. They depend on dice rolls. That is not player skill. aim/dodge is player skill or at least go 'skill based system'
(hm, wonder if I should have created this thread I dont want to be banned the mods have a heavy fist here)
I seriously doubt you would get banned. Nah nothing like that. Back on topic. It's really difficult to make a traditional style RPG game not rely on dice rolls the last really successful game to do that with the traditional sense of story and quests and skill was Oblivion. It really opened the gates to that active skill base combat that also relyed on what skills and abilities your character had. However, I don't see any MMORPG games coming down that pipe that use this kind of real-time system. If there was I would be all over the PVP with very little PVE. EvE is special case because you can make buttloads of money till you get a BS doing the PVE missions then you can go and own space. Own space...Where do I sign up!
Honestly thats why there are alot of good PVP games out there. I'm tired of playing CS and Diablo when there is nothing to gain. Same map, same town, same everything no matter how many people I kill repedatively. But let my clan overrun someones tower or castle(DAOC) or take over their towns and citys by running them off(WWII Online) and that is a fun system.
hey, yeah there are some PVP games that are integrating player skill (realtime twitch) -
huxley, spellborn, darkfall, and hellgate (not sure how much PVP hellgate is going to have unfortunately).
games without aim/dodge ive noticed massive number = win. but twitch + skill based system will equal awesome PVP. players just cant call targets on Ventrillo, everyone hits TAB to you, and all spike ya in seconds. in FPS everyone has to try to aim for you and no one runs out into the open like you see in these mmorpgs
didnt play DAoC but im assuming its like the others. im sure its awesome and I didnt play so for sure im not tossing salt. I am sure it takes 'skill' but I have seen so many times huge numbers not necessarily mean you will win the fight when there is aim/dodge
good post I will think on this argument more. A man cant change his thinking overnight
I am concerned cause they promised more mobs then any other mmorpg and I wondered why. But I like your thinking here so I will think on this. very logical post
You need PvE to fuel your war economy. The only exception must be if players are willing to play bears (to skin), rabbits (to eat) or even dragons who has that special powerword nuke spell. Ok, it would be cool to be a dragon but you get my point. Mobs can also make valuable areas more difficult for other than large guilds to get to. Throw in another guild that wait until all mobs are cleared and then ambush the weakened first guild and you'll have your self some nice pvp, politics and even some revenge
This is a sandbox game. People COULD just grind in peace but as long as some have more, others will want it.
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And when we got more women on the team, it was like No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.
John Smedley, SOE
Df is really trying to cater all playstyles. Those who want pvp, those who want pve, those who want clan warfare, those who want meaningfull warfare, those who wish to craft for their entire time, those who want to go from robust swordsman to the agile theif, those who want to sail around and conquer nearby islands for prestige, and much more.(Much longer than i expected)
Anyways the point is that putting in PvE dosent make it any less of game if thats what your thinking.
Darkfall is hardly trying to cater to all playstyles, and I think that is a good thing. If one tries to please everybody, one runs the risk of pleasing nobody.
A world with nearly totally free PvP is far, far, far from catering to all playstyles. Some like it, and even more claim to like it (but will whine and quit when killed repeatedly, bet on it), but the reality is that most people do not want such a brutal game, especially since open PvP games lack the necessary mechanics to make them even close to reflecting reality and how humans normally interact.
The funny thing is, proponents of these open PvP games say "reality" is a strong point, usually. They think that being able to go anywhere and kill anybody is realistic - a half-truth. I think open PvP is the exact opposite of reality because realistic consequences are not in place, so people act irrationally. Boundaries are needed to promote realism.
We live in a world that is, in fact, open PvP, when you think of it. There is nothing absolutely preventing me from grabbing a gun and offing someone, or trying to raise an army and start a war. So, why do I not do it?
Consequences. Imprisonment, death penalty, etc.
It makes more sense for me to act in accordance with what is considered acceptable behaviour. This results in me being free and happy. Everything I do follows me around, so I agree to obey laws and respect boundaries, because failure to do so results in me ruining my life.
These open PvP games exist in a world without such realistic consequences, so people gank for pleasure and then giggle about it. There is no rhyme or reason, they just do it. Oh, they might get flagged "PvP" or be marked "evil", but so what? This does not detract from their enjoyment of the game. And, if it does, new character time!
If people want a real world with real open PvP, permanent death after being marked a fugitive would be a good start. I certainly would not play such a game, because I hate open PvP of any sort, but this would at least make people consider consequences. This would in turn make people behave like humans and try to get along, rather than mindless killers, which is what I foresee happening if in fact Darkfall comes to pass. People will band together in guilds, and kill everyone else, or be killed by them. Such a dog eat dog world is not a sandbox nor reality, just Quake in an RPG setting.
Thank you to the folks that stayed on topic a man can be wrong these are good points
edit- Questionable ya good post there I agree I've seen a lot of non-combat types on Darkfall forums
Darkfall is hardly trying to cater to all playstyles, and I think that is a good thing. If one tries to please everybody, one runs the risk of pleasing nobody.
A world with nearly totally free PvP is far, far, far from catering to all playstyles. Some like it, and even more claim to like it (but will whine and quit when killed repeatedly, bet on it), but the reality is that most people do not want such a brutal game, especially since open PvP games lack the necessary mechanics to make them even close to reflecting reality and how humans normally interact.
The mere fact that someone has the ABLITIY to attack someone doesnt take away from those playstyles. No there are consquences just like real life.
The funny thing is, proponents of these open PvP games say "reality" is a strong point, usually. They think that being able to go anywhere and kill anybody is realistic - a half-truth. I think open PvP is the exact opposite of reality because realistic consequences are not in place, so people act irrationally. Boundaries are needed to promote realism.
The realism is the fact that you have the ablity to attack someone in a city but of course that would be completely idiotic because you would be hounded by the guards. No I disagree that open pvp is reality because you have the ablity to kill the person next to you but at what cost? There are consquences nothing as severe as Perma-death but still just as bad. No boundaries are just that boundaries.
We live in a world that is, in fact, open PvP, when you think of it. There is nothing absolutely preventing me from grabbing a gun and offing someone, or trying to raise an army and start a war. So, why do I not do it?
Consequences. Imprisonment, death penalty, etc.
It makes more sense for me to act in accordance with what is considered acceptable behaviour. This results in me being free and happy. Everything I do follows me around, so I agree to obey laws and respect boundaries, because failure to do so results in me ruining my life.
Yes you have that ablity but like DF doing so would bring some consquences like being a KOS, being kicked out of every major town, being hounded by every "good" or any other player that wants some stuff risk free. Yes there are laws but like DF when your out in the middle of nowhere whos going to enforce them?
These open PvP games exist in a world without such realistic consequences, so people gank for pleasure and then giggle about it. There is no rhyme or reason, they just do it. Oh, they might get flagged "PvP" or be marked "evil", but so what? This does not detract from their enjoyment of the game. And, if it does, new character time!
That'll be fun for the first few times until they start seeing that they cant get near any towns because of his alignment and if they do start a new character they lose everything they had and start back with newb equipment so whats the point? When it comes down to it not many people are cut out to be hunted down like a dog which will detract most people from being evil.
If people want a real world with real open PvP, permanent death after being marked a fugitive would be a good start. I certainly would not play such a game, because I hate open PvP of any sort, but this would at least make people consider consequences. This would in turn make people behave like humans and try to get along, rather than mindless killers, which is what I foresee happening if in fact Darkfall comes to pass. People will band together in guilds, and kill everyone else, or be killed by them. Such a dog eat dog world is not a sandbox nor reality, just Quake in an RPG setting.
Open PvP can be good if they can do it the right way. Unfortuneatly people are going to need others to rely on. No one man will be able to master everything and because of that there will be those that they have to rely on in order to progress. I really dont see much of the chance of that happening because the fact is that they need each other to survive this world and just like real life people are going to specialize.
can we stay on topic I want to discuss why Darkfall should add a lot of PVE content not debate the features that has nothing to do with my topic
Also PvE isnt what its supposed to be in the other games. That some PvE could also help new guild members learn some coordination and teamwork. I mean whats better teamwork practice than an army of giants that actually have some intellgence and not just an aggro circle.
well for sure we should have a little PVE like EVE but wasnt sure about having a LOT of PVE like what WoW has for instance... I can see you guys points though it makes sense
All I can say is we need something new. Something thats not the same tipical cloan of every other MMO/MMORPG
Maybe this will be that break we all needed. or maybe it will be nothing but hype like alot of other MMORPG failours out there. I guess we'll see.
I've not been able to find an online game thats able to keep my interest like Anarchy-online and SWG pre NGE did.
None have depth anymore.
I have to respond to this you have totally mis-understood the concept of darkfall, it is rolling the genre back to a point where it was good and moving forward. PvP and PvE are not relevant to the discussions regarding Darkfall here, this is a skill based world with serious penalties associated with actions. The sooner people stop bleating either or and look at the bigger picture here they may realise that this could be a winner.
Balancing should not be an issue due to the skillbase, no raids as this is a game killer, open ended gameplay, lots of refinement and time to multi class your charachter but not too much time required for new starters to specialise and compete. Degrading items and reduced dependency these also opens up opportunity to spin back to community concepts.
I am led to believe that this wont be an insta kill game so unless someone is stupid and doesn't understand the conncept of live to fight another day then all playstyles will be catered for.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I cant really undestand what this thread is about.
In DF you do PvP in a PvE world. There is no diffrence. You cant choose when to PvP or PvE, it will just happen when you log in.
Taking them apart just dont make sense in DF.
I could write about this all day, but on AC 1 on darktide they put housing barriers up ...... they only really wanted to include them on the NON-PVP servers. The barriers destroyed darktide. if you are "still kicking around" on darktide you are enjoying a game that is a crappy shade of it's former glory. Guilds used to have lifestones that they would use to meet and defend. This was before housing got put into the game where you can just all recall to a guild house. Now.... other guilds could come surround your lifestone.... and when anyone in your guild recalled there or died they would just get jumped again by a huge group of PVPers. This was amazing. YOu could have a guild vs guild war.
Guild on Guild warfare is something distinctly lacking from todays MMORPGs (except eve)
So they added these barriers just for the o.O servers and they put them on the PVP server too..... then they said they could not remove them on the PVP server even tho no Guild vs Guild wars were impossible..... players recalled to housing that was fully protected. Guilds started having "buff bots" that stood behind the barrier all day and did buffs for noobies.....
it's darktardville now. Have fun there.
Im not trying to get into a battle with someone, but...whats the most populated server on EQ2? How about WoW? or Vanguard? It's isn't PVP servers. I think that PVE is good for progression and character development in skill and ability. Most games that just have PVP usually have no character development not introduction to skill use, no story, no nothin like that. At that point we have an online Massively multiplayer 3rd person Hack n' Slash. Hell even EVE the most PVP heavy game in existence right now has SOME PvE.
Now Don't get me wrong, it's the PVP that still has AC, Lineage, and other games still running, but PVP doesn't make the whole thing, if it wasn't for the PVE coneted those games would have died long ago. PVP is more for longevity of a game and over all good fun when you do get to the top, but getting to the top should be a hell of alot of fun and have damn good story along the way.
Edit: One other thing the PVE games your talking about in the OP make the most money on the market, money = more content = more PVP and PVE systems.
That's a poor example. PvP in games such as WoW, EQ2 and Vanguard is poorly implemented, and that's the only reason why the population is lower on those servers. If PvP would actually mean something and shape the world, (Like War Hammer for example) you will see a drastic shift in the population.
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
I have to respond to this you have totally mis-understood the concept of darkfall, it is rolling the genre back to a point where it was good and moving forward. PvP and PvE are not relevant to the discussions regarding Darkfall here, this is a skill based world with serious penalties associated with actions. The sooner people stop bleating either or and look at the bigger picture here they may realise that this could be a winner.
Balancing should not be an issue due to the skillbase, no raids as this is a game killer, open ended gameplay, lots of refinement and time to multi class your charachter but not too much time required for new starters to specialise and compete. Degrading items and reduced dependency these also opens up opportunity to spin back to community concepts.
I am led to believe that this wont be an insta kill game so unless someone is stupid and doesn't understand the conncept of live to fight another day then all playstyles will be catered for.
um if its rolling the genre backward to UO then I must argue in early UO I dont recall any quests. I ran outside and kill some mobs and skilled up. I didnt need any quests to get things done
that is what im talking bout here. go re-read my original post or go ask someone to teach you bout old UO
edit- oh nice the poll is a lot more accurate now heh
k I'm going to tabulate the poll because who knows when im come back here to check again:
PVE - 47% (I suspect half dont understand in a skill based game the need for QUESTs are pretty much nil they only add direction and some cash usually)
PVP or other - 53%
good enough for me thanks guys
Take a look at the distribution of servers among PVE and PVP, and you will know that the majority of the PAYING customers prefer PVE with controlled pvp. Open PVP is not the favourite in terms of numbers. They maybe fanatic but they are fewer in number.
Cost of making a software or game is high, to recoup the costs, developers would need a larger client base to feed them with monthly fees. Adding PVE would be their best shot in attracting the larger client base. Opening a couple PVP server for the blood-lust PVPers, even with perman death or full looting upon kills, but the way to survival for the developer lies in the wallet of the majority: the PVE players.
To the OP, if DF turn away all PVEers, they might (or might not) go broke fast, or run so low in revenue that they cannot refine the game or maintain the PVP servers. Maybe you should be grateful for the existence of the PVE community who help shared the cost of the game development.
Oh one last thing, realism is total bs as a justification of PVP. Open PVP is not realist, try go shoot everyone on sight outside your home. Looting a man you killed is not realist, its called robbery and murder.