We're on the same boat, but I still dont agree with you. Don't say what now when you farmed like mad for epics that are being constantly upgraded and you have to farm over and over. The process of farming of those items should be fun and enjoyable, not just having the items. That way you are never disappointed if you lose them, because the activity is fun. Not just the result. If the activity is boring, then something's wrong.
The fact that you've got groups of people killing the same NPC over and over and over so that everyone can have So-and-so's sword is a flawed premise from the start. Any game mechanic built upon that will also be flawed. I dont care how interesting you make the encounter. If you are killing the same stuff for an indefinate duration, you're going to get bored. Period.
Farming is an artificial mechanism. No amount of polishing is going to turn that turd into anything but a shiney turd.
We're on the same boat, but I still dont agree with you. Don't say what now when you farmed like mad for epics that are being constantly upgraded and you have to farm over and over. The process of farming of those items should be fun and enjoyable, not just having the items. That way you are never disappointed if you lose them, because the activity is fun. Not just the result. If the activity is boring, then something's wrong.
The fact that you've got groups of people killing the same NPC over and over and over so that everyone can have So-and-so's sword is a flawed premise from the start. Any game mechanic built upon that will also be flawed. I dont care how interesting you make the encounter. If you are killing the same stuff for an indefinate duration, you're going to get bored. Period.
Farming is an artificial mechanism. No amount of polishing is going to turn that turd into anything but a shiney turd.
Thats what I meant, if the activity for getting items is boring and the only joy is the feeling you got them than there's something wrong.
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality.
2.) Fairly linear progression.
3.) Community.
4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP.
5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected.
6.) Community.
7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content.
8.) Total lack of character diversity.
9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example).
10-18.) Community
19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP.
20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate.
21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers.
The people that generally say that they hate the game fall into a few different types;
1 - Mindless drones - The main gang are those that feel it is 'cool' to hate the game just because it is so popular or because someone else says it is and they have no voice of their own. Most of them will echo the age old excuses without any real validation. This breed may have actually played the game in trial or at a friends house.
2 - Other MMO Fanatics - They will always spew the old 'My MMO is far better than WoW because' thing or 'WoW is crap because my MMO does this' thing.
3 - Ex Players - More than likely hardcore players who have played all of the games PvP or Raid content to death and feel that there is nothing left for them so they are now going to hate it. This breed will never realise that if you play any game 24/7 it will only last a finite amount of time or that there are other things to do than just PvP and raid.
4 - Never played - Very similar to the 'Mindless drones' but they have never actually played the game which makes them worse in reality as they actually have no idea at all what they are talking about.
There are probably more, but they are the general types you find. The real question you have to ask yourself is why so many of these people spend so much time on the boards of a game they don't like?? Go Figure!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality. 2.) Fairly linear progression. 3.) Community. 4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP. 5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected. 6.) Community. 7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content. 8.) Total lack of character diversity. 9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example). 10-18.) Community 19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP. 20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate. 21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers.
You forgot... "IMHO" at the end of that pile-o-text.
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality. 2.) Fairly linear progression. 3.) Community. 4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP. 5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected. 6.) Community. 7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content. 8.) Total lack of character diversity. 9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example). 10-18.) Community 19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP. 20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate. 21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers.
Most of your points, without getting into an argument about them, can be directed at most MMOs on the market at the moment.
Only one that i can think of that does not is VS. Which is billed as 3rd generation.
The community is what you have experienced and how you deal with them.
They may well be a majority of children but there are ways of dealing with them.
Dare i ask how long you played WoW and what lvl chars you have?
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality. 2.) Fairly linear progression. 3.) Community. 4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP. 5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected. 6.) Community. 7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content. 8.) Total lack of character diversity. 9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example). 10-18.) Community 19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP. 20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate. 21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers.
Most of your points, without getting into an argument about them, can be directed at most MMOs on the market at the moment.
Only one that i can think of that does not is VS. Which is billed as 3rd generation.
The community is what you have experienced and how you deal with them.
They may well be a majority of children but there are ways of dealing with them.
Dare i ask how long you played WoW and what lvl chars you have?
As with anyone who's played WoW for a period of time, counting your characters and adding their levels is more of a challenge than actually levelling said characters. If you need me to validate my statement by assuring you that I played for an extensive period of time before drawing these conclusions/letting these conclusions drive me from it: Played to mid 40s in US beta, messed around in EU beta with friends. 1st 60 War on Elune US, 1st guild to do MC on server, few mid 40s alts (levelling in WOW is hardly an achievement). Went to EU Stormrage with some friends as I relocated to the UK and US raid times were way too late for some. Played/raided up through the release of Nax, after finishing that we had a break. Started over on US servers after we moved back, hoping the expansion would have corrected a lot of flaws and a more casual approach might be fun, we played again.
Quickly hit 70, maxed some factions, got some arena gear, checked out Kara and some heroics and then it kind of fell apart. Everyone (we have a static group of 5) started logging in less and less, no drive to go on really. I'm fairly confident I have had more than enough experience with WoW, thanks.
The post asks why people hate WoW, it didn't ask me what I liked about it. Point me to a post that asks what people like about WoW and I'll gladly contribute, it's not all bad obviously or we wouldn't have given it a 2nd chance let alone a 3rd. Aspects of it are enjoyable and it's certainly polished. However, try and tell me that the community in general is friendly and enjoyable to be around for extended periods of time, or that the game has depth & scope, and I'll have to disagree. We found ourselves daily pondering some of the design decisions, trying to figure out how exactly they thought certain things were good ideas.
Originally posted by Thillian You say I can play WoW any way I want. But I can't see how is possible to play WoW to decorate my house or to build a ship...
That's not at all what I said
I can see its not the game for you, no housing etc. Is that enough to hate the game really? I mean... do you _hate_ WoW because there's no player housing? Coz that was the topic kinda
WoW didnt get the nickname "World Of Kiddiecraft" for no reason.
Adults may have played it initally but increased accessability to the masses and the influx of kids killed it. Given that the game is simplistic and accessable but the community is just down right a pain in the a$$ to deal with. People just use the anonymous nature of online life to justify thier immature habits. They hide behind thier monitors typing out "lol you suck noob" and "L2P" like some stupid mantra. Guaranteed if anyone spoke to me in person like alot of people did in this "game" and they would have a quick trip to the hospital. Ever asked a typical level 70 in major guild for help? Guaranteed after a few mins you will get the typical "L2P Nub" attitude which permeates this game. If you like playing with a buncha immature asses then you'll be right at home there spamming up Stormwind with nonsense.
Let me correct you. If you say all it should probably apply to me.
I started wow a year after it was released together with my EQ1 guild (50 people). We made level 60 in 3 weeks and finished all raids up to AQ twins in 3 months after server open (it was a fresh new server). It was far from challenging, far from fun so we all quit. We tried it and didnt like it. Now we play either vg, eq2 or even (guild broke up into fragments) and enjoy our time.
So you are trying to say that your BRAND NEW server did the entire war effort in its first three months and your guild of brand new WoW players beat all of AQ save one boss in what a couple weeks? BWHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Man I have heard some big fish stories, but this just takes the cake.
Let me correct you. If you say all it should probably apply to me.
I started wow a year after it was released together with my EQ1 guild (50 people). We made level 60 in 3 weeks and finished all raids up to AQ twins in 3 months after server open (it was a fresh new server). It was far from challenging, far from fun so we all quit. We tried it and didnt like it. Now we play either vg, eq2 or even (guild broke up into fragments) and enjoy our time.
So you are trying to say that your BRAND NEW server did the entire war effort in its first three months and your guild of brand new WoW players beat all of AQ save one boss in what a couple weeks? BWHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Man I have heard some big fish stories, but this just takes the cake.
Thanks for the laugh though.
As I mentioned after I don't remember the details. All I remember was that Nefarian was downed on 51th day on Darkspear EU PVE server. It was third run to BWL. I can even tell you we wiped mostly on that second dragon boss vael.. something. The guild left right after cause didnt want to wait for AQ opening and farm all mats for it to see another boring raid content. I payed server transfer and join my friends guild and clear AQ up to twins then left it. It was 3 months after I start playing it.
But yeh I want to say that our guild with very bad gear cleaner all BWL with partial tier 1. We were used to each other from EQ1, we knew the basic concept of each boss fight so there wasn't much that could surprise us (apart from that vael fight, we couldnt figure out what was causing half-raid wipes in a second, the guy with debuff always ran away so it had to be something different, I think we wiped on him like 10 times which was much more than every other boss). And I remember for Ragnaros without any FR gear we were always running back to UBRS to get the huge fire buff from mindcontrolled warlocks for him. Apart from that there wasn't really gear-heavy needed boss which is actually a positive thing.
Originally posted by Thillian You say I can play WoW any way I want. But I can't see how is possible to play WoW to decorate my house or to build a ship...
That's not at all what I said
I can see its not the game for you, no housing etc. Is that enough to hate the game really? I mean... do you _hate_ WoW because there's no player housing? Coz that was the topic kinda
Ye ye ye I should go play sims online if I want housing;p But well I want housing but I also want to raid and craft.
And I dont hate the game, I hate blizzard and capit.. no I dont hate that either, I'm actually fan of Bush.
Okay, I got it, I hate the people that come here without knowing anything about other MMO"s claiming WoW was first and most original and those that don't play it just can't afford the subscribtion. Or those that come to other game's forums and start threads like, this feature was copied from WoW. Or those that come to other game's forums joining threads saying their humble opinions why they don't like the game, especially those that moan there is no housing... I guess this thread should be called "Why do people hate other people that enjoy WoW." or Why do people think there was no holocaust"
I tried others, i didnt like them either, but i didnt come back.
I am a completely casual player that will most often be soloing somewhere in the MMO of my choice. These two things should have made WoW the game of all games for me. I was bored inside a month and a half, i forced myself to play for a couple more weeks and deleted it.
WoW is not a bad game, its not a great game. It is a good easy game that takes little skill or time to master, it just doesnt offer much past that. My opinions only, not a flame.
Did your first post really have to be about WoW? I mean I know it was you're first MMO, but come on! This just smells like troll bait to me, and I bit only because your post wasn't just a one liner. I don't hate WoW and a lot of other people don't either. They just simply played it and KNOW it is not that great of a game. Sure it's a solid well made game, it's just leaves a lot to be desired. And all the "WoW coppied (other MMO)" comments started the day WoW went into open beta. Because WoW did copy a lot from other MMO's, but what game doesn't this day. The only thing is most people like your self are new to the MMO genre and don't know that most of the features you enjoy in WoW came from other games.
I think in a way i agree with this guy. People who hate WoW are mostly the ones who remember what it was like to be IN a game during the eq days, when if you were human and it turned night and you didnt have dead eye on, you really needed a torch.
The point is that there was something more to those games, that WoW players will never know, and the sad thing is those days are gone. I never raided in EQ, but I have yet to find something that was as real as it in its first days. Same thing with UO, with the implementation of free will.
mmmm yeeeah, thats greeat, a little to the left would be greeeat, ::sips coffee mug:::
WoW didnt get the nickname "World Of Kiddiecraft" for no reason.
Adults may have played it initally but increased accessability to the masses and the influx of kids killed it. Given that the game is simplistic and accessable but the community is just down right a pain in the a$$ to deal with. People just use the anonymous nature of online life to justify thier immature habits. They hide behind thier monitors typing out "lol you suck noob" and "L2P" like some stupid mantra. Guaranteed if anyone spoke to me in person like alot of people did in this "game" and they would have a quick trip to the hospital. Ever asked a typical level 70 in major guild for help? Guaranteed after a few mins you will get the typical "L2P Nub" attitude which permeates this game. If you like playing with a buncha immature asses then you'll be right at home there spamming up Stormwind with nonsense.
I played SWG from start up to CU. I can honestly say there was a fair bunch of a**holes in that game aswell. If that's the crowd you're looking for you'll find em in any MMO tbh... Like most MMO if you get into a nice guild your experience will be greatly enhanced. Being guildless in WoW you'll pretty much have to have a big friendslist to avoid L2Pnub's altogether I'll give u that
" 1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality.
What do you mean by shallow gameplay? What would you consider in depth gameplay? For me, gameplay means things like combat system, the UI and how it handles, as well as other game mechanics that affect your play. There is and has been for a while a standard form of 1st person RPG gameplay in these games that use wasd movement, a hotbar of 10 abilities, and a UI divided up into a minimap, inventory, character sheet, etc. I can see where this might be unoriginal and shallow, but tons of games use this and there haven't been any great other alternatives. Combat well, in a fantasy game with spells, weapons, etc., there are only so many different things you can do other than to cast a spell, chuck a dagger, swing an axe, etc. You can either have a more responsive style of play like TR and AoC are promising to have, or you can have the somewhat more detached form of play like in DAoC, EQ, WoW, etc. I certainly do not see this as a major downside to WoW at all: it's just one of those things. Blizzard also is pretty good about letting players come up with customized addons for their UI. This is something that a lot of game companies don't allow or limit extensively.
2.) Fairly linear progression.
It can be as varied or as linear as you want. You can choose to explore and hunt and forget about quests, you can choose to level up via dungeon crawls, you can choose to undertake the quest-heavy system, you can choose to explore, you can choose to get materials for crafting and level up crafting, etc.. I've done combinations of all. I would have enjoyed seeing a PvP-experience gain option like in DAoC's RvR, so that there would be a reason to do PvP in the world once again. Overall, it's not that different from other level-based games. Are you attacking the level-based system? If so, WoW would definitely not be the game for you. You would be happier with a skill-based game like UO was, but unfortunately these games are dying out. In fact, WoW is nice for allowing each class a rather large range of weapons and abilities to choose from. And talents can customize characters to a point as well. Their talent choices are a bit limited. I hope to see more in the future to give us choice.
3.) Community.
I have had no bad experiences on the Euro servers with the community overall. There are always some jerks in these games, WoW is no exception. But I've also met a ton of really nice players and have found an excellent, friendly guild. I actually found the community in LotRO to be worse overall. There were far more immature people playing that game than in WoW, even from the early days of release.
4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP.
Here I agree with you. I've basically stopped PvP because of the imbalances in classes. I just didn't find WoW's PvP fun. This is the aspect of the game I am least happy with.
5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected.
I've been ambushed before by rare special mobs in dungeons. The patrols keep you on your toes. Not sure what you are getting at here. Are any other dungeon-based games different?
6.) Community.
7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content.
I agree with you that the kill x, and fed ex tasks aren't really quests. WoW doesn't call them tasks or miniquests like DAoC did. However, if you look to see where you pick up a lot of the smaller quests, or kill <named mob> quests, it's from some random person near the inn, or an annoyed trader. Wanted posters give assassination style quests, and the over-arching storyline quest of the area is usually from either an underling of the leader of the town, or from the leader of the town. I also like being able to pick up beginning storyline quests from scouts wandering around. In that sense, WoW is a bit more like the old AD&D stuff where DMs would quite often give leads to new stories and quests to players in the inn or by looking at a posterboard near the townhall or some such. I've played many games now where that isn't the case and you can get some major quest from just some random joe picking his nose in the middle of town. I am not sure where you're assuming that Blizzard considers the minor quests to be content. It's just something to level you up faster. I get the impression they consider their more major quests like the dungeon-opening quests to be more like content as well as the major storyline quests for each area.
8.) Total lack of character diversity.
Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean customizability? If so, I agree that more hairstyles, faces, etc could be added. However, there is such a ton of good items in the game that I've very rarely seen two people from the same race/same class look similar to each other, and I've never seen 2 people same race/class look exactly the same or wear the exact same stuff. A lot of people have similar talent builds, but even there there are a lot of differences. If you mean actual diversity, where you can have a huge number of different kinds of character types, I haven't actually seen that yet in an MMO though the EQ's are close. However, I found that there was little difference in how these vastly 'different' class/races played and there was still a lot of room of overlap in how they looked.
9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example).
I agree with you here. I feel bad for Mages, for example, because they really only have 2 viable primary trees with 1 tree being pretty much a support tree. Warlocks, on the contrary, have it good, with 3 perfectly viable trees. I also feel that people get too much in a cookie cutter kind of mentality and min-max their WoW toons when they don't really have to for raids. I don't understand why a guild of 100s of players can't give a Druid the option of playing a feral cat rather than forcing all Druids to be resto for example. Some guilds do, but the vast majority don't.
10-18.) Community
19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP.
20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate.
Everyone steals ideas off of each other. A lot of ppl have said 'ooo EvE is original'. However, it blatantly lifted ideas from Freelancer and the Homeworld series. It also has some similarities with Time of Defiance. WoW took quite a few ideas off of other companies. I think the worst rip off is actually from Warhammer, which as we all know isn't out in an MMO format yet. However, a lot of the stuff taken was polished and Blizzardized and repackaged to the MMO player. It's also the first time that so many elements of other games have been brought together in 1, especially as far as fantasy MMOs go. The game that was closest to having the same elements before WoW was SWG: in-game email system but you couldn't send items, an AH in the form of the Bazaar, and overall a fairly polished user interface.
21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers."
My main gripe with WoW is the PvP. I really hate the PvP system and have stopped PvPing completely. I left my original server, which was a PvP server, and went to a Normal one.
As far as the grind goes with gear, I don't participate in it. I realized a long time ago that I wasn't raider material (back in the days of DAoC's ToA and AO's raids). I know my gear will never be as good as other peoples' gear. I also realize that the next WoW expansion will make obsolete any of the high end gear you can obtain in TBC. Therefore, outside of bumping into some recipes or nice drops every now and then, I will be content with what I gott. A lot of gamers have asked for endgame material, which usually means raids in the case of MMOs. And we get into a viscious circle of why do we have to raid because we hate it but we want to have raids because there is nothing else to do when we hit max level.... Not for me. I am having an absolute blast in WoW because I do what I want to do. And once the next expansion comes out, I'll be laughing because I won't have wasted my game time on those useless raids.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality. What do you mean by shallow gameplay? What would you consider in depth gameplay? For me, gameplay means things like combat system, the UI and how it handles, as well as other game mechanics that affect your play. There is and has been for a while a standard form of 1st person RPG gameplay in these games that use wasd movement, a hotbar of 10 abilities, and a UI divided up into a minimap, inventory, character sheet, etc. I can see where this might be unoriginal and shallow, but tons of games use this and there haven't been any great other alternatives. Combat well, in a fantasy game with spells, weapons, etc., there are only so many different things you can do other than to cast a spell, chuck a dagger, swing an axe, etc. You can either have a more responsive style of play like TR and AoC are promising to have, or you can have the somewhat more detached form of play like in DAoC, EQ, WoW, etc. I certainly do not see this as a major downside to WoW at all: it's just one of those things. Blizzard also is pretty good about letting players come up with customized addons for their UI. This is something that a lot of game companies don't allow or limit extensively.
2.) Fairly linear progression. It can be as varied or as linear as you want. You can choose to explore and hunt and forget about quests, you can choose to level up via dungeon crawls, you can choose to undertake the quest-heavy system, you can choose to explore, you can choose to get materials for crafting and level up crafting, etc.. I've done combinations of all. I would have enjoyed seeing a PvP-experience gain option like in DAoC's RvR, so that there would be a reason to do PvP in the world once again. Overall, it's not that different from other level-based games. Are you attacking the level-based system? If so, WoW would definitely not be the game for you. You would be happier with a skill-based game like UO was, but unfortunately these games are dying out. In fact, WoW is nice for allowing each class a rather large range of weapons and abilities to choose from. And talents can customize characters to a point as well. Their talent choices are a bit limited. I hope to see more in the future to give us choice. 3.) Community. I have had no bad experiences on the Euro servers with the community overall. There are always some jerks in these games, WoW is no exception. But I've also met a ton of really nice players and have found an excellent, friendly guild. I actually found the community in LotRO to be worse overall. There were far more immature people playing that game than in WoW, even from the early days of release. 4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP. Here I agree with you. I've basically stopped PvP because of the imbalances in classes. I just didn't find WoW's PvP fun. This is the aspect of the game I am least happy with. 5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected. I've been ambushed before by rare special mobs in dungeons. The patrols keep you on your toes. Not sure what you are getting at here. Are any other dungeon-based games different? 6.) Community. 7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content. I agree with you that the kill x, and fed ex tasks aren't really quests. WoW doesn't call them tasks or miniquests like DAoC did. However, if you look to see where you pick up a lot of the smaller quests, or kill <named mob> quests, it's from some random person near the inn, or an annoyed trader. Wanted posters give assassination style quests, and the over-arching storyline quest of the area is usually from either an underling of the leader of the town, or from the leader of the town. I also like being able to pick up beginning storyline quests from scouts wandering around. In that sense, WoW is a bit more like the old AD&D stuff where DMs would quite often give leads to new stories and quests to players in the inn or by looking at a posterboard near the townhall or some such. I've played many games now where that isn't the case and you can get some major quest from just some random joe picking his nose in the middle of town. I am not sure where you're assuming that Blizzard considers the minor quests to be content. It's just something to level you up faster. I get the impression they consider their more major quests like the dungeon-opening quests to be more like content as well as the major storyline quests for each area.
8.) Total lack of character diversity. Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean customizability? If so, I agree that more hairstyles, faces, etc could be added. However, there is such a ton of good items in the game that I've very rarely seen two people from the same race/same class look similar to each other, and I've never seen 2 people same race/class look exactly the same or wear the exact same stuff. A lot of people have similar talent builds, but even there there are a lot of differences. If you mean actual diversity, where you can have a huge number of different kinds of character types, I haven't actually seen that yet in an MMO though the EQ's are close. However, I found that there was little difference in how these vastly 'different' class/races played and there was still a lot of room of overlap in how they looked. 9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example). I agree with you here. I feel bad for Mages, for example, because they really only have 2 viable primary trees with 1 tree being pretty much a support tree. Warlocks, on the contrary, have it good, with 3 perfectly viable trees. I also feel that people get too much in a cookie cutter kind of mentality and min-max their WoW toons when they don't really have to for raids. I don't understand why a guild of 100s of players can't give a Druid the option of playing a feral cat rather than forcing all Druids to be resto for example. Some guilds do, but the vast majority don't. 10-18.) Community 19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP. 20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate. Everyone steals ideas off of each other. A lot of ppl have said 'ooo EvE is original'. However, it blatantly lifted ideas from Freelancer and the Homeworld series. It also has some similarities with Time of Defiance. WoW took quite a few ideas off of other companies. I think the worst rip off is actually from Warhammer, which as we all know isn't out in an MMO format yet. However, a lot of the stuff taken was polished and Blizzardized and repackaged to the MMO player. It's also the first time that so many elements of other games have been brought together in 1, especially as far as fantasy MMOs go. The game that was closest to having the same elements before WoW was SWG: in-game email system but you couldn't send items, an AH in the form of the Bazaar, and overall a fairly polished user interface. 21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers."
My main gripe with WoW is the PvP. I really hate the PvP system and have stopped PvPing completely. I left my original server, which was a PvP server, and went to a Normal one. As far as the grind goes with gear, I don't participate in it. I realized a long time ago that I wasn't raider material (back in the days of DAoC's ToA and AO's raids). I know my gear will never be as good as other peoples' gear. I also realize that the next WoW expansion will make obsolete any of the high end gear you can obtain in TBC. Therefore, outside of bumping into some recipes or nice drops every now and then, I will be content with what I gott. A lot of gamers have asked for endgame material, which usually means raids in the case of MMOs. And we get into a viscious circle of why do we have to raid because we hate it but we want to have raids because there is nothing else to do when we hit max level.... Not for me. I am having an absolute blast in WoW because I do what I want to do. And once the next expansion comes out, I'll be laughing because I won't have wasted my game time on those useless raids.
Good post, nice points I'm not gonna argue there Also glad to hear you wont be wasting any time raiding... now if you could only stop from wasting time in WoW forums your journey would be complete! Good luck with that one m8
Originally posted by Thillian Okay, I got it, I hate the people that come here without knowing anything about other MMO"s claiming WoW was first and most original and those that don't play it just can't afford the subscribtion. Or those that come to other game's forums and start threads like, this feature was copied from WoW.
I have to agree with ya here, I'm fighting the same crusade over at SWG refugee haha... all those "SWGs BIG comback" and "this game is fantastic!" from ppl who never played pre-CU. Really gets on my nerves.
I'm just glad we can agree to disagree for once. Rare on these forums lol. I dont like everything about WoW lol, far from it. But you either go with the flow or play something else. All my RL friends are playing WoW and for me the good outweights the bad so I'll keep playing until we all move to WAR ^^
Originally posted by Thillian Okay, I got it, I hate the people that come here without knowing anything about other MMO"s claiming WoW was first and most original and those that don't play it just can't afford the subscribtion. Or those that come to other game's forums and start threads like, this feature was copied from WoW.
I have to agree with ya here, I'm fighting the same crusade over at SWG refugee haha... all those "SWGs BIG comback" and "this game is fantastic!" from ppl who never played pre-CU. Really gets on my nerves.
I'm just glad we can agree to disagree for once. Rare on these forums lol. I dont like everything about WoW lol, far from it. But you either go with the flow or play something else. All my RL friends are playing WoW and for me the good outweights the bad so I'll keep playing until we all move to WAR ^^
Hell yeh altho there is only one game I fanatically dislike as much as WoW. And that's WAR.
Comments
I dont hate wow. I try to hate the less I can, hate is bad for your health and for your life.
I dont hate any game, just in case I want to play it in the future
Never played WoW
AC (retired); EQ (retired); DAoC (retired); Horizons (retired); EQII (retired); CoH (retired); AC II (tested); Lineage II (beta); Neocron (tested); Saga of Ryzom (beta); SWG (retired)...
Farming is an artificial mechanism. No amount of polishing is going to turn that turd into anything but a shiney turd.
-Feyshtey-
Farming is an artificial mechanism. No amount of polishing is going to turn that turd into anything but a shiney turd.
Thats what I meant, if the activity for getting items is boring and the only joy is the feeling you got them than there's something wrong.
REALITY CHECK
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality.
2.) Fairly linear progression.
3.) Community.
4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP.
5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected.
6.) Community.
7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content.
8.) Total lack of character diversity.
9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example).
10-18.) Community
19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP.
20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate.
21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers.
The people that generally say that they hate the game fall into a few different types;
1 - Mindless drones - The main gang are those that feel it is 'cool' to hate the game just because it is so popular or because someone else says it is and they have no voice of their own. Most of them will echo the age old excuses without any real validation. This breed may have actually played the game in trial or at a friends house.
2 - Other MMO Fanatics - They will always spew the old 'My MMO is far better than WoW because' thing or 'WoW is crap because my MMO does this' thing.
3 - Ex Players - More than likely hardcore players who have played all of the games PvP or Raid content to death and feel that there is nothing left for them so they are now going to hate it. This breed will never realise that if you play any game 24/7 it will only last a finite amount of time or that there are other things to do than just PvP and raid.
4 - Never played - Very similar to the 'Mindless drones' but they have never actually played the game which makes them worse in reality as they actually have no idea at all what they are talking about.
There are probably more, but they are the general types you find. The real question you have to ask yourself is why so many of these people spend so much time on the boards of a game they don't like?? Go Figure!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
You forgot... "IMHO" at the end of that pile-o-text.
Most of your points, without getting into an argument about them, can be directed at most MMOs on the market at the moment.
Only one that i can think of that does not is VS. Which is billed as 3rd generation.
The community is what you have experienced and how you deal with them.
They may well be a majority of children but there are ways of dealing with them.
Dare i ask how long you played WoW and what lvl chars you have?
Most of your points, without getting into an argument about them, can be directed at most MMOs on the market at the moment.
Only one that i can think of that does not is VS. Which is billed as 3rd generation.
The community is what you have experienced and how you deal with them.
They may well be a majority of children but there are ways of dealing with them.
Dare i ask how long you played WoW and what lvl chars you have?
As with anyone who's played WoW for a period of time, counting your characters and adding their levels is more of a challenge than actually levelling said characters. If you need me to validate my statement by assuring you that I played for an extensive period of time before drawing these conclusions/letting these conclusions drive me from it: Played to mid 40s in US beta, messed around in EU beta with friends. 1st 60 War on Elune US, 1st guild to do MC on server, few mid 40s alts (levelling in WOW is hardly an achievement). Went to EU Stormrage with some friends as I relocated to the UK and US raid times were way too late for some. Played/raided up through the release of Nax, after finishing that we had a break. Started over on US servers after we moved back, hoping the expansion would have corrected a lot of flaws and a more casual approach might be fun, we played again.
Quickly hit 70, maxed some factions, got some arena gear, checked out Kara and some heroics and then it kind of fell apart. Everyone (we have a static group of 5) started logging in less and less, no drive to go on really. I'm fairly confident I have had more than enough experience with WoW, thanks.
The post asks why people hate WoW, it didn't ask me what I liked about it. Point me to a post that asks what people like about WoW and I'll gladly contribute, it's not all bad obviously or we wouldn't have given it a 2nd chance let alone a 3rd. Aspects of it are enjoyable and it's certainly polished. However, try and tell me that the community in general is friendly and enjoyable to be around for extended periods of time, or that the game has depth & scope, and I'll have to disagree. We found ourselves daily pondering some of the design decisions, trying to figure out how exactly they thought certain things were good ideas.
IMO.
I can see its not the game for you, no housing etc. Is that enough to hate the game really? I mean... do you _hate_ WoW because there's no player housing? Coz that was the topic kinda
I don't hate WoW but it's just to much of a time sink, grind fest, and loot centric.
I like a broad story with in-depth gameplay.
WoW didnt get the nickname "World Of Kiddiecraft" for no reason.
Adults may have played it initally but increased accessability to the masses and the influx of kids killed it. Given that the game is simplistic and accessable but the community is just down right a pain in the a$$ to deal with. People just use the anonymous nature of online life to justify thier immature habits. They hide behind thier monitors typing out "lol you suck noob" and "L2P" like some stupid mantra. Guaranteed if anyone spoke to me in person like alot of people did in this "game" and they would have a quick trip to the hospital. Ever asked a typical level 70 in major guild for help? Guaranteed after a few mins you will get the typical "L2P Nub" attitude which permeates this game. If you like playing with a buncha immature asses then you'll be right at home there spamming up Stormwind with nonsense.
look i love wow but in all honesty wow did copy everquest a lot...
who cares though, wow > everquest, they got all the mistakes in everquest and improved them :P
Man I have heard some big fish stories, but this just takes the cake.
Thanks for the laugh though.
So you are trying to say that your BRAND NEW server did the entire war effort in its first three months and your guild of brand new WoW players beat all of AQ save one boss in what a couple weeks? BWHAHAHAHAHAHA.Man I have heard some big fish stories, but this just takes the cake.
Thanks for the laugh though.
As I mentioned after I don't remember the details. All I remember was that Nefarian was downed on 51th day on Darkspear EU PVE server. It was third run to BWL. I can even tell you we wiped mostly on that second dragon boss vael.. something. The guild left right after cause didnt want to wait for AQ opening and farm all mats for it to see another boring raid content. I payed server transfer and join my friends guild and clear AQ up to twins then left it. It was 3 months after I start playing it.
But yeh I want to say that our guild with very bad gear cleaner all BWL with partial tier 1. We were used to each other from EQ1, we knew the basic concept of each boss fight so there wasn't much that could surprise us (apart from that vael fight, we couldnt figure out what was causing half-raid wipes in a second, the guy with debuff always ran away so it had to be something different, I think we wiped on him like 10 times which was much more than every other boss). And I remember for Ragnaros without any FR gear we were always running back to UBRS to get the huge fire buff from mindcontrolled warlocks for him. Apart from that there wasn't really gear-heavy needed boss which is actually a positive thing.
REALITY CHECK
I can see its not the game for you, no housing etc. Is that enough to hate the game really? I mean... do you _hate_ WoW because there's no player housing? Coz that was the topic kinda
Ye ye ye I should go play sims online if I want housing;p But well I want housing but I also want to raid and craft.
And I dont hate the game, I hate blizzard and capit.. no I dont hate that either, I'm actually fan of Bush.
Okay, I got it, I hate the people that come here without knowing anything about other MMO"s claiming WoW was first and most original and those that don't play it just can't afford the subscribtion. Or those that come to other game's forums and start threads like, this feature was copied from WoW. Or those that come to other game's forums joining threads saying their humble opinions why they don't like the game, especially those that moan there is no housing... I guess this thread should be called "Why do people hate other people that enjoy WoW." or Why do people think there was no holocaust"
REALITY CHECK
I tried others, i didnt like them either, but i didnt come back.
I am a completely casual player that will most often be soloing somewhere in the MMO of my choice. These two things should have made WoW the game of all games for me. I was bored inside a month and a half, i forced myself to play for a couple more weeks and deleted it.
WoW is not a bad game, its not a great game. It is a good easy game that takes little skill or time to master, it just doesnt offer much past that. My opinions only, not a flame.
Why do people care if other people don't like the game they play?
This phenomenon is something i will never understand.
The point is that there was something more to those games, that WoW players will never know, and the sad thing is those days are gone. I never raided in EQ, but I have yet to find something that was as real as it in its first days. Same thing with UO, with the implementation of free will.
mmmm yeeeah, thats greeat, a little to the left would be greeeat, ::sips coffee mug:::
I played SWG from start up to CU. I can honestly say there was a fair bunch of a**holes in that game aswell. If that's the crowd you're looking for you'll find em in any MMO tbh... Like most MMO if you get into a nice guild your experience will be greatly enhanced. Being guildless in WoW you'll pretty much have to have a big friendslist to avoid L2Pnub's altogether I'll give u that
"
1.) Re-hashed shallow gameplay, lack of originality.
What do you mean by shallow gameplay? What would you consider in depth gameplay? For me, gameplay means things like combat system, the UI and how it handles, as well as other game mechanics that affect your play. There is and has been for a while a standard form of 1st person RPG gameplay in these games that use wasd movement, a hotbar of 10 abilities, and a UI divided up into a minimap, inventory, character sheet, etc. I can see where this might be unoriginal and shallow, but tons of games use this and there haven't been any great other alternatives. Combat well, in a fantasy game with spells, weapons, etc., there are only so many different things you can do other than to cast a spell, chuck a dagger, swing an axe, etc. You can either have a more responsive style of play like TR and AoC are promising to have, or you can have the somewhat more detached form of play like in DAoC, EQ, WoW, etc. I certainly do not see this as a major downside to WoW at all: it's just one of those things. Blizzard also is pretty good about letting players come up with customized addons for their UI. This is something that a lot of game companies don't allow or limit extensively.
2.) Fairly linear progression.
It can be as varied or as linear as you want. You can choose to explore and hunt and forget about quests, you can choose to level up via dungeon crawls, you can choose to undertake the quest-heavy system, you can choose to explore, you can choose to get materials for crafting and level up crafting, etc.. I've done combinations of all. I would have enjoyed seeing a PvP-experience gain option like in DAoC's RvR, so that there would be a reason to do PvP in the world once again. Overall, it's not that different from other level-based games. Are you attacking the level-based system? If so, WoW would definitely not be the game for you. You would be happier with a skill-based game like UO was, but unfortunately these games are dying out. In fact, WoW is nice for allowing each class a rather large range of weapons and abilities to choose from. And talents can customize characters to a point as well. Their talent choices are a bit limited. I hope to see more in the future to give us choice.
3.) Community.
I have had no bad experiences on the Euro servers with the community overall. There are always some jerks in these games, WoW is no exception. But I've also met a ton of really nice players and have found an excellent, friendly guild. I actually found the community in LotRO to be worse overall. There were far more immature people playing that game than in WoW, even from the early days of release.
4.) Gross class imbalance in PvP.
Here I agree with you. I've basically stopped PvP because of the imbalances in classes. I just didn't find WoW's PvP fun. This is the aspect of the game I am least happy with.
5.) Simon-Says style scripted raids/events rather than forcing players to re-act to the unexpected.
I've been ambushed before by rare special mobs in dungeons. The patrols keep you on your toes. Not sure what you are getting at here. Are any other dungeon-based games different?
6.) Community.
7.) Bland, tedious and repetative 'Kill x boars' tasks (not deserving of the term 'Quest") passed off as content.
I agree with you that the kill x, and fed ex tasks aren't really quests. WoW doesn't call them tasks or miniquests like DAoC did. However, if you look to see where you pick up a lot of the smaller quests, or kill <named mob> quests, it's from some random person near the inn, or an annoyed trader. Wanted posters give assassination style quests, and the over-arching storyline quest of the area is usually from either an underling of the leader of the town, or from the leader of the town. I also like being able to pick up beginning storyline quests from scouts wandering around. In that sense, WoW is a bit more like the old AD&D stuff where DMs would quite often give leads to new stories and quests to players in the inn or by looking at a posterboard near the townhall or some such. I've played many games now where that isn't the case and you can get some major quest from just some random joe picking his nose in the middle of town. I am not sure where you're assuming that Blizzard considers the minor quests to be content. It's just something to level you up faster. I get the impression they consider their more major quests like the dungeon-opening quests to be more like content as well as the major storyline quests for each area.
8.) Total lack of character diversity.
Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean customizability? If so, I agree that more hairstyles, faces, etc could be added. However, there is such a ton of good items in the game that I've very rarely seen two people from the same race/same class look similar to each other, and I've never seen 2 people same race/class look exactly the same or wear the exact same stuff. A lot of people have similar talent builds, but even there there are a lot of differences. If you mean actual diversity, where you can have a huge number of different kinds of character types, I haven't actually seen that yet in an MMO though the EQ's are close. However, I found that there was little difference in how these vastly 'different' class/races played and there was still a lot of room of overlap in how they looked.
9.) Poor balance amongst the talent trees, making certain classes vastly affected by their decisions for some content while others can use any spec for all 3 (Instances/raiding, soloing, PvP) equally well. (Prot warrior, Holy priest for example).
I agree with you here. I feel bad for Mages, for example, because they really only have 2 viable primary trees with 1 tree being pretty much a support tree. Warlocks, on the contrary, have it good, with 3 perfectly viable trees. I also feel that people get too much in a cookie cutter kind of mentality and min-max their WoW toons when they don't really have to for raids. I don't understand why a guild of 100s of players can't give a Druid the option of playing a feral cat rather than forcing all Druids to be resto for example. Some guilds do, but the vast majority don't.
10-18.) Community
19.) Disgusting class imbalance in PvP.
20.) Shallow game mechanics, lack of scope, blatant 'lifting' of ideas from other games while failing to innovate.
Everyone steals ideas off of each other. A lot of ppl have said 'ooo EvE is original'. However, it blatantly lifted ideas from Freelancer and the Homeworld series. It also has some similarities with Time of Defiance. WoW took quite a few ideas off of other companies. I think the worst rip off is actually from Warhammer, which as we all know isn't out in an MMO format yet. However, a lot of the stuff taken was polished and Blizzardized and repackaged to the MMO player. It's also the first time that so many elements of other games have been brought together in 1, especially as far as fantasy MMOs go. The game that was closest to having the same elements before WoW was SWG: in-game email system but you couldn't send items, an AH in the form of the Bazaar, and overall a fairly polished user interface.
21.) The general self-centered, greedy, childish, rude, snotty, crass community Blizzard seems to foster and encourage, making them seem as immature as their customers."
My main gripe with WoW is the PvP. I really hate the PvP system and have stopped PvPing completely. I left my original server, which was a PvP server, and went to a Normal one.
As far as the grind goes with gear, I don't participate in it. I realized a long time ago that I wasn't raider material (back in the days of DAoC's ToA and AO's raids). I know my gear will never be as good as other peoples' gear. I also realize that the next WoW expansion will make obsolete any of the high end gear you can obtain in TBC. Therefore, outside of bumping into some recipes or nice drops every now and then, I will be content with what I gott. A lot of gamers have asked for endgame material, which usually means raids in the case of MMOs. And we get into a viscious circle of why do we have to raid because we hate it but we want to have raids because there is nothing else to do when we hit max level.... Not for me. I am having an absolute blast in WoW because I do what I want to do. And once the next expansion comes out, I'll be laughing because I won't have wasted my game time on those useless raids.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
Good post, nice points I'm not gonna argue there
I have to agree with ya here, I'm fighting the same crusade over at SWG refugee haha... all those "SWGs BIG comback" and "this game is fantastic!" from ppl who never played pre-CU. Really gets on my nerves.
I'm just glad we can agree to disagree for once. Rare on these forums lol. I dont like everything about WoW lol, far from it. But you either go with the flow or play something else. All my RL friends are playing WoW and for me the good outweights the bad so I'll keep playing until we all move to WAR ^^
I have to agree with ya here, I'm fighting the same crusade over at SWG refugee haha... all those "SWGs BIG comback" and "this game is fantastic!" from ppl who never played pre-CU. Really gets on my nerves.
I'm just glad we can agree to disagree for once. Rare on these forums lol. I dont like everything about WoW lol, far from it. But you either go with the flow or play something else. All my RL friends are playing WoW and for me the good outweights the bad so I'll keep playing until we all move to WAR ^^
Hell yeh altho there is only one game I fanatically dislike as much as WoW. And that's WAR.
REALITY CHECK
So now you played on two servers and cleared more content and a bunch of other things you can't remember.
You sound like Smed.