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Instancing vs. spawn camping... Or something in between?
Mimzel
Member UncommonPosts: 375
The typical dilemma for oh, so many MMO's today: Rely heavily on instancing to overcome the drag of camping spawns for quests or loot, or have an open solution that unites players in one, common world. As a avid mmo gamer over many years, I have come to understand this to be one of the major issues the developers of MMO(RPG)s confront. Both paths have their pros and cons, although personally I support open solutions more than instancing because Instancing in a MMO somewhat bastardize the genre for me.
However, I am able to appreciate the downsides to either solution, and then I came to think that there must be another solution to this age old problem. How about an open, non-instanced world (or instanced, but still where you are not placed in your own, seperate little world) where the mobs will spawn with a strenght and power relative to the amount of people trying to kill it. That way the mob would be slightly different depending on who is actually there to take it down.
This would have the benefit of both worlds. When it comes to loot, there are ways to handle that as well. Loot has the problem that it is finite - it comes in very limited supply. A 1000 silver divided amongst a 64 man raid will be so watered down that none really gets any benefit, and the good armor/weapons usually only drop for 1 person at a time. However, you could easily make it so that tradeskills are involved when making armor out of its hide - and for big mobs like dragons there should be enough hides for everyone. And for other mobs you could have good rewards given by the questgiver instead of the mob itself. On the other hand that could take away from the grandieur of the encounter itself, reducing it only to a pre-requisite for the item you get at quest delivery. That is no good either. But i included it here to just add an example.
Feedback?
Comments
Not a bad idea, I kinda liked it.
My turn:
Non-respawnable Bosses. - Once a boss dies, it stays dead. Sure, some bosses could re-spawn... Like a ghost I guess(With a very long re-spawn rate). But if a Boss is alive, once you kill it... It stays dead. The devs come out of their shell and evolve the story based on that event! "Player X, along with his merry band(Player Y, Player Z and Player 1), has defeated Lord Evilot... The remainder of his forces stayed behind on his keep awaiting their defeat". From that moment on, mobs on that Zone would never respawn once killed! The story would unfold, with possibly a new threat to the world.
The way I see it, re-spawnable mobs are just an easy way out for game developers. And please add some real risk when you face one of these boss monsters... There should be a reason, why they're the Scourge of the land. "Oh crap! I tried to take him on... Wanna try for 13th time?". Please, if our adventurers feel no fear... How are they brave?
Sorry about the rant... At least it's on topic!
</>The Anti Social Gamer
The problem is that when a mob spawns nobody is fighting it, so you have no idea how many people will actually be trying to kill it. For instance 1 guy is fighting in an area, 100 people are nearby having a guild meeting or holding one of those MMO wedding ceremonies.. A mob spawns as a 101 person raid mob, being fought by a single guy?
The only way to have the game you both are dreaming for is to have a dedicated GM for every person ( or group of people ). Are we really willing to pay enough for an MMO to fund their salaries?
Instances are the best solution to the problem, if somebody comes into an instance.. it's fair to assume they're going to take part in any combat inside. And you can scale it accordingly.
Instances are wrong in a MMO concept... The point is to play and compete with other people. Competition is not limited to PvP, there can be PvE competition.
We don't really need to be so obsessed with everyone winning... Or no one will win.
That said, if you divide a game by Zones(as it often happens)... You can scale the difficulty of the boss by the ammount of players(Maybe even their levels) in said zone. If your group alone can't beat it... Ask for help from the other players in the zone.
Still like my idea more though
The Anti Social Gamer
old SWG
Well there is no question that instances have changed or evolved the gendre greatly and sadly they have killed a few games out there. It seems we have came from one extreme to another and the gamers are paying the price for this.
Back in EQ days, boss mobs or encounters had extremely long spawn times, there where no instances. This was all find and good but it lead to the eventual bottlenecking of guild progression and to guilds mysteriously figuring out said bosses' spawn timers and farming them. I vividly remember having scouts placed all over norrath to check for boss spawns for the nightly raid, then running like mad to be the first guild in the zone, formed up and ready to roll as well as racing other guilds inside the zones to reach the boss first. This did bring something to the game thats been sorely missed by many of us. PvE compition as someone stated above. Take away this and it takes away some of the feeling of accomplishment.
Why did this change? To please the masses. Turns out its not nearly as pleasing as everyone thought it would be. It feels empty quick. IMO instances = a watered down instant payoff that in the end doesnt mean a whole lot. It seems that this is the future of gaming though sadly. /rant off
I dont like instancing, no way. SWG used to have a system for missios that was not instanced but prevented camping. Dunno how it is atm but nust be the same still, or similar.
I think what was meant was monster spawn camping, not player corpse camping
Personally i think instancing takes something away from mmo's, I loved how AO worked with the dynamically increasing spawns the more people there were..
SWG had a funky system with dynamic spawn points, you couldn't stay in one spot.. made it kinda tedious at times tho so I prefer how AO handled it.
What EQ players remember from spawn camping was the big bad kills that you had to camp to get the really good drops.. now _that_ is something i think should be instanced.. a good blend of creating small instances for the really high bosses and leaving everything else out in the main world would be good.
Have you seen how Tabula Rasa works? that's a pretty good blend.. WoW does it well too but their instances are WAY WAY WAAAAY too big for my tastes, takes hours and hours and everyone just cant put that kind of time into a game. if you could get right up to the boss out of instance and then enter an instanced "last 2-3 rooms", that would work fantastically i think, allowing complex mechanics while taking the tedium out of it.
Difficile est satiram non scribere
My opinion is that instancing is a decent solution, but that what would be 100 times better would be a game that doesn't rely on any form of instancing, sharding, respawning, or "player activated" content.
I'm talking about a "real world" simulation, where once an NPC dies, it stays dead - permanently. Quests and similar content would have to be designed around this limitation, which would be challenging, but doable if content designers built content that didn't require murdering, or consuming everything.
Since we're being realistic, NPCs can only be "spawned" by migration (perhaps from a place players can't access, so that we don't have to wait for NPCs to be born and grow up like the real world). Combat, doesn't have to be lethal either. We don't necessarily need combat - daily life doesn't involve mass murder so why do most of our virtual worlds?
There are many challenges to this design, number one is making it fun. I'm not advocating non-combat MMOs, but MMOs that have combat that isn't unrealistic. But out of all these MMORPGs none of them are particularly convincing worlds.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Instancing is the downfall of MMOGs, and it has no place in them. There are infinite solutions to spawn camping and farming, it just might require a little more creative coding labor. Instancing is just a lazy way for a developer to deal with these issues and lag as well but it destroys the very fabric of a seamless virtual world.
Instancing has SAVED MMOs by making them fun for everyone...not just the top 2-3 guilds. Spawn camping is NOT fun for most people; instancing removes the need to camp. Open worlds may appear more "realistic" [though respawning at all counters realism], but there are far too many idiots running around in open space. By instancing, players can enter areas alone or with a group of their choice - getting away from many of the idiots [PUGs are another issue].
I really like the idea above about non-respawning NPCs - the problem is that no one could join after day 1 or play casually and still be able to find MOBs. Works for single player very well [or instanced
] but not for MM.
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
If you want to allow other l33t people to steal your items or kills, with the only benefit of mainly immersion, don't get instancing...
if you want to have a "pure" challenge at any time of the day but with a hit to immersion, get instancing... ( "You stole my kill you ********** " doesn't exactly help immersion either in noninstanced areas...)
That said... if there's a boss that's being widely camped, I'd prefer instancing any day. If there were multiple versions of the boss in other places than instancing may not be necessary. However, if anyone wants a "pure" match, with just the designated challengers and boss, then there's no other way but to have instancing or instancing without the players knowing it...
To the OP: The actual problem with loot is not that it is finite, but that it is infinite! While loot from one MOB is finite [and should be], since MOBs respawn, loot is effectively infinite. This is what usually kills crafting/economies in games. Since crafting supplies are infinite, crafted items have no value. Since supply is infinite, in game economies face constant inflation. Making crafted items better than dropped items and item decay are sometimes used to counter this inflation, but are very difficult to balance.
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
I agree.
I tend to agree with Uncus.
Had it not been for instancing MMO's would still have been a 1 million customers market.
MMO's is about progression, if only people with insane amounts of free time can progress then I am fairly sure they will be all but alone in any given gameworld.
I like AO's system as well, they were first with instancing but they did it subtly.
I like eq2's system also, with both contested and instanced raid bosses, as well as quest mobs.
Free time is still the most important factor on how well you will do in pretty much any given MMO, I am hoping for another system as well but until then lets not kill of the whole genre?
To generalise, and I am sorry if I insult anyone with this but.
Seeing as I work full days, pay my taxes and support my family should NOT mean I do less well in any given game then the people I probably support with said tax who spends all day infront of their computer.
I suppose there is some twisted irony in that, but I am not laughing.
Now, if someone were indeed to come up with a good solution to the camping VS instance problem then I would be all ears because I do think it takes away some of the immersion, but it is small price to pay to be allowed to play at all and still progress.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Actually, those who are more oriented toward PvE tend to feel that the point of MMOs is cooperation, not competition. This is why Brad McQuaid's philosophy of players competing over PvE resources was always incredibly wrong-headed.Some people feel that the point of an RPG (MMO or otherwise) is to experience a story. Trying to be the first guild to zerg a statically spawning boss mob was never a good story to begin with, but by this point it has become tiresome in the extreme.
Some people feel that the point of an RPG (MMO or otherwise) is to experience a story. Trying to be the first guild to zerg a statically spawning boss mob was never a good story to begin with, but by this point it has become tiresome in the extreme.
If you read my first post you'll notice where I stand on the subject.
That said, people compete in PvE all the time! Instacing hasn't killed this, it just made it more detached. Before you'd go against a boss and hope that you and your group were the biggest damage dealers, now... You just try to instance the same monster as many times as possible to have better gear than the others.
If you want an example of players knowing the story... Hit Matrix Online, where players actually participate in the story advancement. It's still pretty far from what I consider being imersed in the story... But it's pretty damn good first step.
The Anti Social Gamer
Instead of instances why not have most things be quest based and mobs spawn when the character is in the area. That mob can spawn and call the name of the quester, for example. It would be invulnerable to anyone other than the person it is meant for and the group he may be in.
For multiple questers, it can spawn in various areas in the same world, like 50. If all those areas are taken, then the quest is not given out again until one is completed. Also, more quests had time limits that would prevent backups.
AKA - Bruxail
This is why you need item sinks. Attuneable/BoE items, permanent item decay, and permanent item destruction (I.E. in EVE when a ship goes boom) are generally the best solutions.
I prefer the boss actually being a boss rather than just a trophy object for who does more damage... If there's more people than expected, that makes the challenge easy and meaningless, all that's left is who does more damage ( and having a car for people to attack like in the old streetfighter II game would do the trick...)...
Another vote for AOs instance system here. Shards of dungeons that could contain 50 people or so (seriously it ruins immersion to see 200 people in a dungeon setting) was ideal, but non-instanced world zones.
Sharding (to a point) is neccessary due to technology or lack thereof.
Mim your idea sounds alot like how Warhammer's Public Quest system works. PQ's in Warhammer Online scale according to how many people are currently involved, everyone thats working on the quest whether grouped or not gets rewarded for the amount of work and time they put in. The final boss encounter (guessing here this part on its level spawning) spawns accordingly and those that are involved in its defeat along with any other work they do are eligble for rewards equivalent to their work. They're doing it in a way that the Public Quest is not affected by people just sitting around in the zone watching or doing other quests. Plus the PQ's are not random or rare events they're constantly going events that change according to the standings of your realm or restart (im not totally sure on this part yet since its in beta and im only going by what their podcasts have said so far).
Games are always going to have instancing, it takes some of the load off areas of the server and deflates alot of the 'mob camping' fights and complaints that have gone on since EQ1. It'll always be nice having a private adventure amongst friends instead of dealing with 50+ all crawling around the same set of caves. Its just not realistic or fun that you'd be in some dangerous gnoll cave but there's tons and tons and tons of people in there killing stuff (and its really hard to avoid mob waves of death when people run and drag up the whole dungeon on their tail), a dungeon area should have a feel of danger and the only way to really get that feel is by having the instance because you know if you mess up there's no one there to help you.
Having Public Event Mobs and Quests that everyone can get in on are awsome and I think a balanced mixture of both with perhaps the PQ's giving out the better rewards sounds like a far better solution than erradicating either side.
BTW PVE competetion is great but it shouldn't involve everyone fighting and struggling for the same mob. If you've ever played EQ1 you know just how damn annoying it was to wait for 3+ hours for a spawn only to have it snagged by some jackass who pops up out of no where. PVE competention should be about reaching some sort of goal like doing or solving a particular puzzle first, or a quest first, or even making discoveries of some sort before anyone else (EQ2 has something like this, they even have ratings according to how many quests you've solved, mobs you've killed, times you've been killed, but never killing a particular mob). Mob camping is so not competive its just a PVE version of ganking and its annoying and honestly even back in the day stealing someone else's camp was considered down right rude. Plus if you were in a guild it often started wars between guilds.
*thinks on the idea of killing of mobs permantly* Several games have events that are run like this, they dont happen often but when they do its a HUGE thing. If thats the only way things worked in the game it would peev alot of people off because not everyone gets to be on all the time. I know I'd be one of those players who'd get pissed to come home from work and find the newest event already over because some power guild ran through and killed everything. Spontaneous and sometimes random events like this are already in every game, they're really fun and usually really wild. Making it an everyday thing would eventually make it as old and boring as regular everyday activity. They take alot of work on the dev teams part since these events would have to be ready right out of the box to work plus it would be rather expensive in time and probably money. Events like this are supposed to bring the community together so they can destroy the awsome foe but to make it an everyday thing would turn into just a fight between Power Guilds on who's going to get to it first. It'd take all the actual fun out of it for casual players and smaller guilds.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I guess if you have no quests you could have monsters and loot randomely generated with different names and different stats/abilities. It would probably be a lot of work, but it would stop everyone from getting the same items and killing the same exact mobs.
If you have instancing or not the answer lies within a more dynamic system. How do you camp something thats random? To put this is perspective, imagine that every undead frog in lguk (EQ) had a spawn % chance of being the assassin or whatever and making sure only one instance of each named could be up at the same time. This would work for almost everything except the final bosses, which I feel have to be static spawns.
Yes you could argue that a guild may come in and camp the entire zone, likely? No. Players would resort back to safe spots to pull and may get lucky grabbing a named mob while running the corridors.
If instancing is left in make them dynamic. Take Diablo style randomness and apply it to something that has been run down like Molten Core (WoW). Yea its the same bosses... oh wait randomize the ones that spawn. Hey this is fun again. Stealth is used for scouting again and everything is a little bit more exciting/challenging wahoo.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Reading through the replies so far, I get the impression that alot of people cling to the way things work today. For instance, it is a little narrow minded to point out technical hinders like "what if 101 player raid fails to take down the mob, and then the small raid force coming in after them have to face a boss that has scaled to the 101 sized raid". I dont see a problem here as I imagine there are several ways this can be prevented, like having the boss rescale every few minutes.
Someone else mentioned the ultimate problem for tradeskills in many MMO's, which is the value of tradeskilled items vs raid loot. The way I see it, this is directly connected with the fact that you have a set of items that doesnt involve tradeskills at all, and then you have the (comparatively) sub-par crafted items. I could easily see this fixed by having the best items ALWAYS need to be crafted (with rare boss loot items as ingredients). I never understood why this is not always the case in present day MMO's, or why they have crafting at all the way it is now.
Someone else was so bold as to say there will ALWAYS be a need for instancing to prevent clogging in the serverside systems. It might be because I am a social worker, but I hardly ever use the words always or never. Computer technology is advancing so rapidly I have no problem seeing technical limitations being radically different a few years from now. However, at present day, I can see your point though.
As I mentioned in my first post, I feel that it is somewhat schizofrenic to use instancing in a Massively Multiplayer Online Game; trying to isolate the single player from the rest of the multiplayer world... As a few already mentioned, there is both elements of competition and co-operation in a MMO, but for me the co-operation part is at the core of the MMO nature and what is revolutionairy and qualitively different from single player games.
This is why I hope to see a fresh take on the age old dilemma of MMO developers - Instancing or Spawn Camping? I'll take something new, please!