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I don't understand about the EA Bioware buyout...
Cabe2323
Member Posts: 2,939
I honestly don't understand all of the hate against EA. Is it jealousy? Is it the lets hate the big kid on the block type of thing? As a publisher they only beaten by Nintendo in game quality. So it isn't the quality of the games that causes problems.
ARe people really that upset over their business practices? Purchasing the rights to the NFL, ESPN, and MLB makes good business sense for them to do. And it isn't like they put out crappy games to go along with those licenses. Most of the Madden games at least usually get above average ratings.
Sure a bunch of UO projects were cancelled, but what do you really expect them to do? Garriott and the rest of the core developers from Origin left the company way back in 2000. Do you really expect a company to go out on a limb and develop a UO2 without the core developers?
Alot of people seem to blame UO's downfall on EA, but EA owned Origin way before UO was even developed so they aren't too blame. They were listening to customer feedback when they made changes to the game. Were they listening to the most loyal customers? probably not. Those customers have since moved onto other games, but they were trying to make the game better for everyone and not just the people who loved to gank.
Also, EA bought Mythic and since they have seemingly given Mythic autonomy to make their own decisions in regards to DAoC and WAR. They even turned over their other MMOs to Mythic to run. Would that be such a bad thing? Having Bioware's MMO team working under Mythic? I don't think so.
I think a lot of the hate going around is completely unfounded and is being based on games that most of you probably don't even play. I seriously doubt we have a ton of Madden fans running around these forums, nor do we probably have a bunch of Sims fans either.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Comments
You dont understand because you are not informed... "jealousy"...please. For gods sakes, stay in reality. There are numerous reasons why people get hesitant when EA is involved, people with years of experience and tons of knowledge. That you dont know and have no experience, does not mean they are wrong, it just means you don't know yet.. So don't worry about it, try not to insult people based on your ignorance and wait until you actually find out.
You could try to actually ask, without starting with insults...
"jealousy" The most stupid comment so far.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
I see your point, clearly we should all become Madden and the Sims fans. It's such a simple solution..in fact, it could be what EA wants to begin with !
EA is the demolisher of companies. It's like a kid, playing with lego, "trying"to display some originality, but always ending up buying new lego-boxes for some small parts he rips from it and adds to his own concept. Which is moneymaking for EA.
Some names...
Westwood, Origin, Bullfrog, Maxis.
Their track record for ruining game studios is legend.
I miss Bullfrog
Read this article and it will give you more information.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/45/3
EA also shut down the FIRST MMORPG Motor city online, and then a year later Earth and beyond.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_City_Online
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_&_Beyond
Not to mention westwood... and many other game companys...
EA has a track record of buying a company, redistributing its employees to other projects, and driving that company and its products straight into the ground.
Recently EA purchased Mythic online. Mythic swore that no one would be fired, and that no one would be moved to other projects.
However, with in the first few months people started Mysteriously resigning, and mythic employees are already farmed out to Ultima Online.
EA has yet to produce a good online RPG, and usually destroys the ones ti takes over... thats why a lot of us are worried about WAR. Anyways read the Escapist article... my other statements... and make up your own mind.
More then half of the C&C games were made after EA purchased Westwood.
Bullfrog- Both Dungeon keeper games and Simcoaster which are all pretty good games were made after EA purchased Bullfrog.
Maxis - hmm what is wrong with this company? Will Wright still works there for EA and they released The Sims and the Sims 2 after being aquired by EA. So the Best selling PC game of all time was released by EA. Also two of the best critically acclaimed games of all time were both released by EA as well.
So maybe you guys need to check your history better. God developers lose people even if they don't get bought out. It just happens. Look the Co Founder of Turbine left years ago and was the Producer on City of Heroes. He didn't leave because the company got bought out. A ton of Blizzard executives have left the company and that was years after they were purchased by Vivendi. Heck I don't see people villinizing Blizzard for what they did to Condor games(Blizzard North) yet they did the exact same thing that EA is doing. And all of the developers from Blizzard North are gone now.
I very well know the history of the game genre. I have been playing PC games since the early 80s and Video games consoles just as long. EA gets a lot of very unfounded hate.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Oh wait that is right EA purchased Origin in 1992 and UO came out in 1997 but EA must not of produced it? I guess there is some type of time travel or time manipulation being involved here?
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
More then half of the C&C games were made after EA purchased Westwood.
Bullfrog- Both Dungeon keeper games and Simcoaster which are all pretty good games were made after EA purchased Bullfrog.
Maxis - hmm what is wrong with this company? Will Wright still works there for EA and they released The Sims and the Sims 2 after being aquired by EA. So the Best selling PC game of all time was released by EA. Also two of the best critically acclaimed games of all time were both released by EA as well.
So maybe you guys need to check your history better. God developers lose people even if they don't get bought out. It just happens. Look the Co Founder of Turbine left years ago and was the Producer on City of Heroes. He didn't leave because the company got bought out. A ton of Blizzard executives have left the company and that was years after they were purchased by Vivendi. Heck I don't see people villinizing Blizzard for what they did to Condor games(Blizzard North) yet they did the exact same thing that EA is doing. And all of the developers from Blizzard North are gone now.
I very well know the history of the game genre. I have been playing PC games since the early 80s and Video games consoles just as long. EA gets a lot of very unfounded hate.
did yah read the article? No? mmkay
EA left origin mainly alone until 1997, I dont consider UO an EA product. EA mainly was just canceling other projects at that time from Origin, not carving up the team.
Again...read the article
I find this person that waves around with quotes of dead presidents quite...freaky... especially when it's pretty obvious there is a hardcore EA fanboi behind it. EA and deadpresidents..hmm..what would they be up to next ?
The talented teams that were in place, EA took apart or forced them in a direction with limitations agreeable to their own means. Proof from the companies above. Happened before will happen again.
More then half of the C&C games were made after EA purchased Westwood.
Bullfrog- Both Dungeon keeper games and Simcoaster which are all pretty good games were made after EA purchased Bullfrog.
Maxis - hmm what is wrong with this company? Will Wright still works there for EA and they released The Sims and the Sims 2 after being aquired by EA. So the Best selling PC game of all time was released by EA. Also two of the best critically acclaimed games of all time were both released by EA as well.
So maybe you guys need to check your history better. God developers lose people even if they don't get bought out. It just happens. Look the Co Founder of Turbine left years ago and was the Producer on City of Heroes. He didn't leave because the company got bought out. A ton of Blizzard executives have left the company and that was years after they were purchased by Vivendi. Heck I don't see people villinizing Blizzard for what they did to Condor games(Blizzard North) yet they did the exact same thing that EA is doing. And all of the developers from Blizzard North are gone now.
I very well know the history of the game genre. I have been playing PC games since the early 80s and Video games consoles just as long. EA gets a lot of very unfounded hate.
did yah read the article? No? mmkay
Maybe you didn't read the article that closely either? :Garriott: "We doubled the size of the company from 200 to 400 that first year. We went from 5-10 projects to 10-20, and staffed those projects almost entirely with inexperienced people. It won't surprise you to learn those projects were not well managed. That was totally Origin's fault. We failed, and we ended up killing half of those products. That's probably what set up the EA mentality that 'Origin is a bunch of [deleted],' pardon my French."
Also:
Spector says, "Mattrick told me I needed to make games more like Richard and Chris - swing for the fences, go for the megahit, spend a ton to make a ton - instead of consistently turning out smaller games, making some money every year. I thought he was nuts at the time. Took me several more years to admit that, like it or not, he was right and I was wrong."
That tells you all you need to know about the downfall of Origin.. and even Lord British himself says it was Origin management's fault and not EA. Warren Spector states that EA's opinion about what type of games he should make was ultimately right as well.
That article reinforces that EA doesn't do anything wrong. In Fact they have the right idea towards making commercially successful games.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
There is just not to much discussion here.
Bioware will not go down in the first year. But ultimately Bioware was THE INDEPENDANT studio , and now it is just a cog in the great corporate blockbuster machine - kind of opposite of what it stood for before.
Bioware is not the same company it way day before yesterday , and judging from experience it has only few more years to live...
Spector left because he didn't want to make big commercial games which is fine. But EA didn't drive him off and by his own words in that interview he says they were right.
Garriott left because he didn't really like working on a time schedule, but he admits that it is Origin's fault that it happened. If they had been better managers then they would still all be working at EA with pretty much autonomy.
You can't claim UO as a non EA product considering that they had to get EA CEO's premission to make it according to that very same article that you quoted.
That letter in Escapist actually puts the blame squarely where it belongs and that is on the upper management of Origin. They were unable to deal successfully with all of the massive funding they were given at first and so EA had to put the Iron Fist down.
It is the same problem that Mcquaid had with Sigil. If EA had owned Sigil we would of never gotten the buggy release of Vanguard we did get.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I am definitely not an EA Fanboy by any means (heck only EA game I even play technically is DAoC), but I am definitely not an EA hater. They haven't done anything to deserve hate.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Ill simply agree to disagree with you and wish you luck
Ill simply agree to disagree with you and wish you luck
It wasn't my opinion it was actually Richard Garriott's in that article. He placed the blame on Origin themselves. If they had any resemblance of good management after they recieved all of the funds from EA, EA would of left them pretty much alone.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
EA Didn't Ruin Origin. They purchased it in 1992 and Origin still released many games that were highly rated after that. Then The core development team decided to leave 8 years after being purchased. That is what ruined Origin.More then half of the C&C games were made after EA purchased Westwood.
Bullfrog- Both Dungeon keeper games and Simcoaster which are all pretty good games were made after EA purchased Bullfrog.
Maxis - hmm what is wrong with this company? Will Wright still works there for EA and they released The Sims and the Sims 2 after being aquired by EA. So the Best selling PC game of all time was released by EA. Also two of the best critically acclaimed games of all time were both released by EA as well.
So maybe you guys need to check your history better. God developers lose people even if they don't get bought out. It just happens. Look the Co Founder of Turbine left years ago and was the Producer on City of Heroes. He didn't leave because the company got bought out. A ton of Blizzard executives have left the company and that was years after they were purchased by Vivendi. Heck I don't see people villinizing Blizzard for what they did to Condor games(Blizzard North) yet they did the exact same thing that EA is doing. And all of the developers from Blizzard North are gone now.
I very well know the history of the game genre. I have been playing PC games since the early 80s and Video games consoles just as long. EA gets a lot of very unfounded hate.
I guess our points of view are quite different. Nevertheless, in regards to Origin Systems, it's less about the released titles between 1992 and 1998 (don't start about U9 in '99 or U8 for that matter). Why, I wonder, would the core development and Garriot leave at all... ? Or Gaffney as you put him as a example?
Quoting Wikipedia (yes, I'm lazy bad):
In regards to Bullfrog:
Last but not least in regards to Westwood:
As for Maxis... they suffered from commercial failures before they got aquired already, yes. That's not the point as it wasn't for the other studios either:
The handling of the acquired studios is the topic here. I personally am not positive about EA but I guess that is, to a extend, pretty subjective and everyone needs to know on his or her own. Everyone can view the happenings and developments differently and come to a different conclusion based on where you start to look or judge for that matter.
Much like yes, people left for other projects or companies but why do I ask? Surely EA never was the initial reason, no? And that is where we agree to disagree.
PS: Blizzard isn't nor was the topic here. It's all about EA so I will stay on that topic.
Bioware had a first few very good and original RPS's (Fallout 1+2, BG1, Planescape or icewind dale 1+2), but then they start slipping (BG2, NWN) into overhyped linear action crap (Kotor 1, +obsidian made Kotor2+NwN2). So I didnt expect much from them on MMO field anyway. Now when EA stepped in, its even more doomed.
REALITY CHECK
didja read the article mmkay? was what was said re: the escapist article.... well i have.... and among the doom and gloom of EA Games is the devil after SOE I saw this little gem, stated by Producer Warren Spector
"The business was changing radically, in ways an independent developer/publisher like Origin probably wasn't equipped to handle," says Spector. "We were becoming a blockbuster business, like the movies. When Origin's revenue and profits took a hit and EA gave us a very... aggressive budget number to hit, it was mostly my projects that got killed - I wasn't happy about that. But what were they going to do? Kill Richard Garriott projects? Chris Roberts projects?"
Spector's games (Ultima VII Part 2: Serpent Isle, Ultima Underworld, System Shock and many more) consistently brought returns a small studio would think quite respectable. But the economics of a billion-dollar corporation are different. For EA it makes more sense to reach for the sky with every single project. The games that die or get cancelled become tax writeoffs, and the rare hit pays for all the rest. The worst case is the mere modest success, a mediocre return on equity without corresponding tax advantages.
Spector says, "Mattrick told me I needed to make games more like Richard and Chris - swing for the fences, go for the megahit, spend a ton to make a ton - instead of consistently turning out smaller games, making some money every year. I thought he was nuts at the time. Took me several more years to admit that, like it or not, he was right and I was wrong."
swing for the fences... like it or not, he was right and I was wrong."
sounds like the Mantra of MMO's these days... Vanguard -- Swing and a Miss -- Gods and Heroes -- Swing and a Miss -- Matrix Online -- Swing and a Miss -- Tabula Rasa -- early indications of Swing and a Miss -- Looks like EA aren't the only ones following the maxim (doh, sorry for the pun) of go hard or go home. But they are the ones getting vilified for it.
"We aren't going to ... Period. End of statement."
ya. ok. whatever.
but what do i know, i'm only a vanbois i'm told.
Bioware did NOT make Fallout, Planescape or IceWind Dale! If you look on Bioware's homepage it tells you the games they actually made. After the Baldur's Gate games several of Black Isle's developers branched off and Created Bioware, they were not how ever on the project teams that created Fallout, Planescape, or Icewind Dale or you'd see those games listed! Bioware and Black Isle were always in good relations for the years that passed until Black Isle studios closed its doors permantly (it was a sad day for the RPG world)
Bioware's official list of currently published games
Jade Empires
Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 1
Neverwinter Nights (and its subsequent expansions)
Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate : Tales of the sword coast
Baldur's Gate 2
Baldurs Gate 2 expansion
MDK2
MDK2 Armageddon
Shattered Steel
On to the subject at hand. I've always had a severe distaste for EA because of how they treat the companies they buy out and most definitly how they treat their employees. EA's pratices are notorious and it shows for any game that comse out of the direct EA house they're usually lack luster, lifeless, and far from anything entertaining (not their sports games or so im told). They use employees like lil cogs in a wheel that can be so easily replaced and for many of us that is not how we like to see our favorite developers treated. If it hadn't of been for an EA employee's wife making public statements against EA's internal pratices (that have led to class action lawsuits against the company) most people here wouldn't even know the horrors of how EA treats people.
EA for such treatment are viewed by many of us as complete a**holes far more than the nitpicking of when and who they destroyed. While I won't boycott a game that EA makes I am especially careful to read reviews of games they're directly involved in. Especially after how horrible all the Lord of the Rings action games were (and just about all the other action games they've put out other than what is it battlefield or medal of honor they make?), and how awful every IP liscenced game they've pretty much put out. Its not hard to make a sports game, the rules are already laid out so they've managed not to screw those up.
As long as Bioware, Mythic and Pandemic continue to make good games and don't waste money with bad practices EA's likely to leave them alone. I Pray this holds true because I'd hate to see them destroyed by the Demon Company EA.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
They fired or moved most of the dev team...most of them didnt leave they were fired. The higher level people left after most of the people that worked for them left. No way to spin that. Ask anyone that was there, that is how it happened.UO was origin developed, because it was thought up by origin people from before the EA buyout. The core dev team on the project were pre EA origin employees.
EA contribution to UO = Trammel. nuff said in my opinion.
If you want a crap game built on the license of a former great game look for a EA project. Origninality is a curse word at EA and they will admit that. EA is a conveyer belt for sequels and basically churning out the same game year after year, that players buy.
Probably the best example showing that EA is not interested in making games is what happened after 2k football came out on dreamcast and was better than Madden has ever been. EA didnt decide to make a better game, they decided to just buy the exclusive license. Its a crap company making crap games.
They fired or moved most of the dev team...most of them didnt leave they were fired. The higher level people left after most of the people that worked for them left. No way to spin that. Ask anyone that was there, that is how it happened.UO was origin developed, because it was thought up by origin people from before the EA buyout. The core dev team on the project were pre EA origin employees.
EA contribution to UO = Trammel. nuff said in my opinion.
If you want a crap game built on the license of a former great game look for a EA project. Origninality is a curse word at EA and they will admit that. EA is a conveyer belt for sequels and basically churning out the same game year after year, that players buy.
Probably the best example showing that EA is not interested in making games is what happened after 2k football came out on dreamcast and was better than Madden has ever been. EA didnt decide to make a better game, they decided to just buy the exclusive license. Its a crap company making crap games.
You can't claim EA had nothing to do wiht making UO. Garriot went to Probst specifically to get the funding for UO. EA Purchased Origin 5 full years before UO was released. So no I am sorry but EA fully funded and produced UO. They had an EA VP over the studio during that time frame.EA Fired Origin employees because according to Garriot themselves they got out of hand. They were wasting money like crazy and cancelling projects left and right (Origin not EA) so finally EA got fed up and said these guys are a bunch of screw ups we need to fix this. So they got more iron fisted after Origin messed up.
EA has never been super ironfisted with Maxis and that is because Maxis never messed up. Maxis had their name on the boxes for years after they were bought by EA.
It is very objective on whether 2K football was better. Most people I know that play Sports games never liked it in the first place. Too many people that hate EA are confusing innovation with Fun. They do not equal each other. EA focuses on making fun games that will sell a ton of copies. Customers care about Fun and that is what will cause them to buy massive amounts of games not innovation.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
They fired or moved most of the dev team...most of them didnt leave they were fired. The higher level people left after most of the people that worked for them left. No way to spin that. Ask anyone that was there, that is how it happened.UO was origin developed, because it was thought up by origin people from before the EA buyout. The core dev team on the project were pre EA origin employees.
EA contribution to UO = Trammel. nuff said in my opinion.
If you want a crap game built on the license of a former great game look for a EA project. Origninality is a curse word at EA and they will admit that. EA is a conveyer belt for sequels and basically churning out the same game year after year, that players buy.
Probably the best example showing that EA is not interested in making games is what happened after 2k football came out on dreamcast and was better than Madden has ever been. EA didnt decide to make a better game, they decided to just buy the exclusive license. Its a crap company making crap games.
You can't claim EA had nothing to do wiht making UO. Garriot went to Probst specifically to get the funding for UO. EA Purchased Origin 5 full years before UO was released. So no I am sorry but EA fully funded and produced UO. They had an EA VP over the studio during that time frame.EA Fired Origin employees because according to Garriot themselves they got out of hand. They were wasting money like crazy and cancelling projects left and right (Origin not EA) so finally EA got fed up and said these guys are a bunch of screw ups we need to fix this. So they got more iron fisted after Origin messed up.
EA has never been super ironfisted with Maxis and that is because Maxis never messed up. Maxis had their name on the boxes for years after they were bought by EA.
It is very objective on whether 2K football was better. Most people I know that play Sports games never liked it in the first place. Too many people that hate EA are confusing innovation with Fun. They do not equal each other. EA focuses on making fun games that will sell a ton of copies. Customers care about Fun and that is what will cause them to buy massive amounts of games not innovation.
1) Pre EA take over Origin guys led the development of UO - EA guys took it over after release and ran it into the ground. That is a fact. I was there at beta and launch. We know who the devs are that started and led the poject and we know where they went. Most people also will know why they left. Its not a mystery.2) EA fired Origin devs for trying to come up with original ideas like they did when you know they were at origin. EA doesnt do original it does the same game over and over and over and over and over again. But they fired them, they moved them and they ruined a great gaming studio.
3) BS...either your friends who play sports games are crazy or you work for EA. I am leaning towards EA marketing guy/girl on this one. If madden is better, then why buy the license and force out the competition. Wouldn't customers just buy your better game?
EA is going to ruin the franchises these guys bring to the table, do not doubt that. Maybe not the first one or two out of the box. But 4 years from now when the devs who made those games have moved on (they all do) EA suits will move in and mass produce crappy sequels till they cant ring any more money out of the former fans of the series.
EA; Kill any good quality companies today? EA, brining you the same game we brought you last year but this time with new people on the cover.
which company out there make stuff to serve ppl for free? obvious u dont have a job and got no clue about this world do u?