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When will asian mmo's figure it out?
RudedawgCDN
Member UncommonPosts: 507
Have you noticed a trend with Asian mmo's? Archlord huge grind failure as p2p game, goes free - subs double. Now RF Online huge grind, failure so what do they do - make it free to play.
When will they learn that Western players want depth and an interesting journey to the higher lvls with little grind? Why keep releasing these same types of games and then months later making them free? (basically admitting thAt they are a commercial failure in the West?)
The flood of free to play Asian grind fest mmo's is staggering, they just seem to keep making them... yes they continue tio "fail" here in the West - what are the Publishers thinking? Do they not understand that in order to be a commercial success you make a product that caters to your demographic?
Are computer geeks that stupid, that they don't understand the basic tenants of product placement?
Now before someone mentions that Anarchy Online and Shadowbane are free, yes they are - but their very dated games who were on a play to play subscritption plan for a fairly long period of time, and basically outlived themselves.
I just don'tr understand why Asian mmo's continue releasing to Western markets thinking we want another L2 clone, when honestly there's only room for one. Sorry guys that spots taken, there's just not enough Western style players to want another L2 grindfest.
Comments
I'll tell you who's laughing. Gpotato, Acclaim, Nexon and Game&Game, all the way to the bank.
Also, they are not admitting to be failures, perhaps in an imaginary world, but certainly not in this one.
Switching to an Item shop model does not mean that the game is a failure. Codemasters do not provide charity, and the same bills of server hosting, staff and development need to be paid, regardless of the fact the game is using a micro transaction or a monthly fee. If the game was a failure, the game would shut down. I honnestly don't understand why people get the idea that a game is failing when it changes a payment scheme. At the end of the day, the same bills need to be paid.
ArchLord and RF online are both micro transaction games in Korea, because that model is the new norm in Korea. It would only make sense to switch payment methods. In fact, there have been some conflicts between CCR and Codemasters because CM wanted to keep the game p2p, while CCR wanted them to switch to Free to play because having a p2p model conflicts with the development of the game.
At the end of the day, these "L2 clones" are succesful. its cheaper to import those games from asia then to buy a game from an expensive western company. And they appear to be very successful.
Well like OP said when going F2P these games double their player base. Now with such an increase of player base there is a better chance of more players sticking to the game. When a person spends a great deal of time on said F2P game then naturally they want to improve their character and make said character competitive in the PVP aspects of the game. With double the player base and an item shop introduced this results in a bigger potential for bigger cash gains.
Well it is easy to explain why Asians keep releasing their game in the western market.
First you need to understand that when Asians make an MMO they don't think about N/A or Europe but to.................. (yes have a guess) Asia.
So they make games that Asian players like, with that player base they cover the costs of the game and they make a good profit too.
Any other box they sell to the western market is a welcome plus, but they don't rely on the western market to make a profit out of the game.
You should ask yorself another question though.
Why western publishers like Codemasters keep importing rubbish Asian games?
That could be more interesting subject, I am sure that Codemaster make some kind of money out of it, but it is difficult to understand how.
Some people like grind style MMOs that don't force or preasure to do annoying quests and run back and forth to town. EQII was so quest oriented, that if you didnt want to do the quests your character quickly became gimped, and the quests were always through 8 zonelines into the darkest corner of qeynos or freeport and you had to run all the way across antonica to get there. EQ1 was especially fun in my eyes because it was mostly a grinder, but still very social, ex: you and 5 other players hit up the plane of valor for a few hours killing golems. The problem with the grinding games now in my eyes is that they are too solo oriented, and their communities don't take off as well. It seems since WoW has come out the gold standard is lots of quests with giant rewards to make you feel excited for a big gain once and awhile. But solo quest games are what tend to be popular, and they are BORING. When they preasure you to do quests it just wastes your life runing hours back and forth. You call it depth, i call it drowning. And RF came out much earlier than archlord and it has survived nearly 2 years before going free. Archlord was just not a very polished game. There is a niche in the mmo market for grinding games, you dont like them go play WoW with everyone who cant wait for their green shoulderpads because they killed 7 turtles. Turtle slaughter is the standard for depth right?
lol... i find it funny that you use two of the worst MMO's released as your examples. Codemasters is a terrible mmo company and didnt know how to handle their games. I know tons of people who enjoy grinding. Let's take Lineage 2 for example. Lineage 2 is one of the best MMO's released and it takes atleast 5-6 months to get level 70+. Not all people want carebear pvp and easy leveling like WOW. Their is actaully a sense of accomplishment after leveling for that long. Not to mention most people enjoy PVPing while they level at lower levels i know i do. There are plenty of people who will grind out the levels, so it's not easy to say westerners don't like grinding.
Hey, don't Asian MMOs allow players open PvP at fairly low levels and award XP when you kill other players? Most western MMOs demand that you be at the level cap or participate in arena PvP only and don't award XP (or anything else) for victory in PvP. There's also no penalty for grouping with players that are insanely higher lvl than you so twinking can allow you to lvl faster than WoW. Throw in a few XP enhancing potions from the item shop and you can be competitive in less than a week.
Most people here are just comparing apples to oranges. The P2P model assumes that most players will stick around for 3 months. The F2P model assumes that players will, on average, spend $60 in total on in-game items. F2P has a slight edge here because it's all about volume and it has a built in capability for getting that volume. A game isn't a failure because it went item shop. It went item shop because it was never meant to be P2P.
I think a game is a failure when it goes to F2P without any new source of income (*cough* Shadowbane *cough*). The games you pointed out have item shops, so they'll more than likely make money. The downside is that their lifespan will be somewhat shorter than P2P games simply because there will be a point where most MMO players have played them and there won't be enough new players to justify keeping the servers up. This is different from P2P games that can die in under a year because they can't sustain enough subscribers to cover the operating cost.
Like or not, the "micro-transaction" thing is here to stay. And it wouldn't be that way if there wasn't MORE money to be made with item shops than there is in subscriptions.
Succesful? 2 servers half full empty citys bugged game lag quest who not work classes who all are designed to grind:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
was reffering to archlord:P
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
The game that you made a thread about, when you knew little to nothing about the game and then Gameloading had to prove you didn't know much of the game? Please talk about games you know.
Archlord was a F2P game in Korea. Codemasters changed it to P2P because that's what the forums asked for when they did a poll. Not a Korean dev's problem.
Last time I checked .. a Korean developer's demographic is ... KOREA. Koreans obiviosly love this stuff .. same reason they love a 10 year old game such as Starcraft ... cause they are effing koreans .....nott their problem if some Western company wants to port it over ...
How about this .. instead of bitching like a little girl on Korean games ... how about you go to your beloved Western developers and scream at them to make a F2P game and see how that goes ...because really ... I am waiting for one ...
Well west have make the most succesfull p2p mmo so they prolly will make someday also most succesfull f2p mmo:D
But true bitching about korean games is silly alot of good ideas and games come from korea and west profit from this even blizzard.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
http://flyff-forum.gpotato.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2331303
Scroll down to the 2nd page, and see what it says there: $350 US, on average, to upgrade an item to ultimate quality.
Sure, most people don't go that far. But even if you upgrade halfway, that's still $175 average. Not to mention the thousands of players who at least spend more "reasonable" amounts ($40-$60). AND THIS IS JUST TALKING ABOUT ONE (1) ITEM!
Imagine upgrading your entire set of equipment. Or if you find a better base item, upgrading that. Your bill, over the months, can easily run into the thousands. OF REAL U.S. DOLLARS.
Clearly, for Gala-Net (who license Flyff from Aeonsoft, the Korean devs of Flyff), are making a killing. You can't charge this much in a pay-to-play (p2p) game and get away with it. But magically say "free-to-play! (f2p)", and players will fall all over themselves burning money in your cash shop trying to differentiate themselves from the freeloaders.
You are both correct, essentially. Gameloading is correct, in the sense that f2p games actually DO make enough money to be viable. Zigmund (the OP) is also correct, in the sense that these f2p games are merely ripoffs made to milk the most from the player base before it gets sick of the game and moves on.
Generally, f2p games DO last a little longer, because the entry barrier is low (it's free), so you always get a larger influx of gullible newbies. Pay games need some sort of hook, and need to coddle their player base, naturally this is a riskier proposition. Easily demonstrated by the countless failed MMORPGs over the years.
In the end, the gamers lose out. Why should the companies care? As Gameloading says, they've made their little pile of money. Personally, I *never* pay in these f2p games. I try to work the system to make a decent game living in them, explore all the classes, and understand the system. I'm not going to fall into the pay trap just to get better stuff and look prettier.
" In Defeat, Malice; In Victory, Revenge! "
Gameloading is taking the view that because a game "exists" it is not a failure. Western players have not "embraced" Asian mmo's. I'm saying a failure from the numbers of subs. Archlord using this as an example (as Gameloading is a big fan of the game or at least a big defender) had so many players leaving the game after Beta they had to go free. As soon as AL went free subs doubled again, and people started to praise it on the review boards.
I was in the top guild in AL one of the highest lvl players on our server - so yah I was there when our whole guild quit because pvp was so borked that other guilds wouldnt pvp us, because they didn't want to lose skulls. I personally got sick of the game when I realized at higher level what a huge repetitive grind fest it was.
My arguement is that because a game is free - doesn't make it good.
So why don't you post something constructive on the topic? Because you added nothing of value.
I've made a good point. Asian / Korean games do not do well here.
Fact: Most players playing mmo's right now are waiting for either AoC or War. If either prove to be a good game, the only people left playing Asian mmo's will be kiddies with no money that can't afford to pay the subscription fee.
The only reason Asian mmo's even get any notice is because not one good game was released this year. Very disappointing year for mmo's.
And note to Gameloading you are completely wrong about why AL went free. They had to - people were leaving the game in droves. And I've already detailed the many reasons why in numerous threads.
But as people have already said. Asian MMOs are bought cheap, companies don't have to do much other than translate the game and setup servers. I would think they make enough to at least break even or they wouldn't continue with these games.
It all comes down to a matter of preference. But, saying asian mmos are not successful in the west, is not entirely accurate. Games like Silkroad Online, 9Dragons, and even Archlord have sizeable player bases in europe and the united states. Matter of fact, they just opened a new server on archlord, beacuse of the influx of new players since the game went f2p. Everytime I log in, there is no less than medium server load on all three of them. Silkroad online has somewhere around 20 servers that are always at near or max capacity, thats why they are constantly adding new ones. Sometimes I can't even get on because my server is maxed out at high traffic times. While it is true that asian mmos are an aquired taste, it does not mean that there are people in the west who have not aquired it.
labeling Asians mmorpg as grindfest kinda make me laught.. just mention me a MMORPG that isnt somewhat a grindfest ? ( even WOW is ).
IMO L2 is one of the best mmorpg released the last 6 years and it will be way more successfull if it was not for the bots and gold farmers .. but then that doesnt have nothing to do with the game itself.
i Beleive any mmo gathering arorund 250/350k customers is a success.. not a big one liek WOW or even L2 during its gold days, but its still a descent amount of customers for a niche market.
When will "Asian" designers figure it out? Probably before western ones do
Vanguard is a fine upstanding example of a superior grind free and original western game design.
...or WoW...or whatever other MMO you can name. All of them, western or Asian are the same in that regard.
As far as "failing" probably correct however, again I don't see the parade of western successes to compare it to. In fact western MMOs are failing across the board in every market. (with a few notable exceptions)
Throwing stones in glass houses.....
Matrix Online is a failure but it's still running =PBut as people have already said. Asian MMOs are bought cheap, companies don't have to do much other than translate the game and setup servers. I would think they make enough to at least break even or they wouldn't continue with these games.
And who says the Matrix Online is a failure? The simple fact of the matter is that if a game is no longer profitable, it gets shut down since it would be pointless to continue since it would only cost money. Oh sure it's not as profitable as a WoW or Lineage or Lotro but that doesn't mean it's a failure.
And to Zigmund, ArchLord never had a lot of subscribers to begin with.
And you have already mentioned why you think ArchLord became free because you thought that people didn't think it was worth paying for. Ofcourse this is downright silly, people ARE paying for the game in form of cash shop items. The same bills for a f2p game have to be paid as for a p2p game, server cost, new content, staff etc etc. In fact the bills are larger because more people = more servers = more staff = more costs.
So your arguement is flawed because people are still paying for ArchLord.
Zigmund and Trucidation both made some pretty compelling points, I think. And I'd also like to add RF Online as an example that somewhat parallels the one made of Archlord.
I bought RF Online when it hit the shelves here in the US because I'd been following the game since it's announcement of development. I was thoroughly disappointed upon playing it however, thinking to myself "How could they expect anyone to pay for this rubbish?!" Of course, keep in mind that I was coming off WoW at that time as well, and might have been unfairly compairing the two games. But I believe that even if WoW had never been in the picture, the feelings would have been the same.
A year or so later, Codemasters sent me an email telling me that they had moved RFO to a F2P business model for blah blah blah reasons. I rushed to reinstall it and give it another go. And I think there were several people in my guild that said they had done the same thing.
Point being this: Even though RFO is now a F2P game, it's still a piece of crap. And I feel the same way about Archlord.
But hope has come for me in the form of Perfect World, a game that I just got through playing through CBT, and so far, if they tighten up the localization, seems to be top notch.
If you liked The Perfect World, check out AION...TPW is pretty much a earlier form of that game ^^.
I gave RFO another chance when it went completely F2P, and im enjoying it so far. I played Archlord for a bit, but the need to buy items from the cash shop to be competitive in PvP was the deal breaker for me. Grinding is not for everyone...some like it some dont. I didnt like it for the longest time...until I started grouping up for it, then it was so much fun.
We are not all the same person, and we all like different things...
Hmm and what modern western MMO's other than maybe EQII offer this vaulted depth you speak of?
Also (while poo-pooing the L2 model) you choose to whistle past the horde of EQI clones that glut our beloved western MMO market. Truth is All MMO's have a grind and while some hide it a little better than others it's still a grind. So...are we finally ready to put this falicey to rest?
You see there's plenty of room for both EQ & L2 clones now isn't there.
So next time....rather than making charged statements that just as easily apply to our western titles why not just say you don't like Eastern / Asian style MMO's and leave it at that.
*Sigh*
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
I hated (and still do to some degree) the level of grinding you had to do in most Asian MMOs. But you're right about one thing. When you get a group of friends together and shoot the shit and chat while grinding, it makes it go by so much easier, and you level before you even realize it.
Also, I'd like to add...ALL MMOs are about grinding. ALL of them. Even WoW, with its depth of gameplay and tons of lore, is nothing but a grind-fest. It's just dressed up better than most. When that NPC in Stormwind tells you to wipe out the Defias and bring back proof of your sucess, what do you think he's really asking? Yep, you're being asked to kill countless numbers of mobs until you can collect the number of drops the NPC wants to complete the quest. Asian MMOs just forgo the disguise most of the time.
What I look for in any MMO is gameplay I can get into. If the game has a clear and concise character building system, I'm there. If there's a seamless world into which to venture and kill mobs, count me in. I come from the old PSO days, where all you did was grab some mates, hop into a zone, and kill until you leveled and collected sweet drops on the way.
All I ask of any MMO is to make it worth my time. Simply leveling my toon isn't going to cut it.
No more korean grinding filth!
Waiting for Age of Conan.
Hmm and what modern western MMO's other than maybe EQII offer this vaulted depth you speak of?
Also (while poo-pooing the L2 model) you choose to whistle past the horde of EQI clones that glut our beloved western MMO market. Truth is All MMO's have a grind and while some hide it a little better than others it's still a grind. So...are we finally ready to put this falicey to rest?
You see there's plenty of room for both EQ & L2 clones now isn't there.
So next time....rather than making charged statements that just as easily apply to our western titles why not just say you don't like Eastern / Asian style MMO's and leave it at that.
*Sigh*
I'm with you zarraa,I'm still waiting for someone to raddle me off that list of superior, depth driven, non-grind centered western MMO's.
If you don't like them, fine. There are some stylisic differences but to even imply that western games are any different at their core is plain old nonsense.
Talk your talk but provide something, anything to support your argument.
On that note, list me a western game that has had any success on the level of an Asian game HERE aside from WoW or GW, let alone one that has had any success anywhere else in the world market. Sadly, our devs can't launch a game to save their lives. It really does stink.
Hmm and what modern western MMO's other than maybe EQII offer this vaulted depth you speak of?
Also (while poo-pooing the L2 model) you choose to whistle past the horde of EQI clones that glut our beloved western MMO market. Truth is All MMO's have a grind and while some hide it a little better than others it's still a grind. So...are we finally ready to put this falicey to rest?
You see there's plenty of room for both EQ & L2 clones now isn't there.
So next time....rather than making charged statements that just as easily apply to our western titles why not just say you don't like Eastern / Asian style MMO's and leave it at that.
*Sigh*
I'm with you zarraa,I'm still waiting for someone to raddle me off that list of superior, depth driven, non-grind centered western MMO's.
If you don't like them, fine. There are some stylisic differences but to even imply that western games are any different at their core is plain old nonsense.
Talk your talk but provide something, anything to support your argument.
On that note, list me a western game that has had any success on the level of an Asian game HERE aside from WoW or GW, let alone one that has had any success anywhere else in the world market. Sadly, our devs can't launch a game to save their lives. It really does stink.
Western Style mmo's are much better than their Asian counterparts.
The following games are pretty well all the same : 2moons, 9Dragons, Archlord, Cabal, Corum, Hero Online, Immortals USA, KalOnline, Knight online, Twelve Sky, Last Chaos, Rappelz, Silkroad.
Dumb mob AI, click to move, no real pvp (you need to click and then if you do kill someone there's bad karma) and they call L2 and AL hard core pvp.... yah right. Senseless and repeitive grind.
If you have played anyone one of those games you've probably played them all.
Here's a list I made on another thread comparing Western mmo's to Asian / Korean.
Game play in general - Western
UI Customiazation - Western - most Asian games allow no or very little keybinding options.
PVP and RVR - Western - most Asian games do not allow you to attack anotherp layer without pressing the ctrl key, and if you do kill someone you incur a bad kharma penalty that often takes hours ot work off.
Crafting - Western - most Korean games don't have any crafting at all.
Housing - Western
Auction Houses - Western - The Korean system of having players sit afk putting up signs is basic and poorly implemented, basically as a buyer you have to wade thru tons of players to find what you want.
Freedom of movement - Western - Click movement is ok, but the western style of keys is better. Why you ask? Well for the very reason that Korean merchant shops are poorly implemented - when I player L2 there are so many shops on the ground that often you can't even find a clear patch of ground to move to.
Questing - Western - it really adds to the story if done properly and it takes away the feelign that you are grinding, plus a lot of games actually give some cool rewards for completing a quest.
Raiding - Western - have you ever raided in L2 - a joke.
Mob AI - Western- this is my biggest beef against Korean mmo's - the dumbest mob AI I have ever seen, in fact in a lot of the newer Korean games they've dumbed down the mob ai so badly that mobs do not agro you until you actually start attacking them.
City building - Western - nothing like it in Korean mmo's
Less Grind - Western - hands down, Western mmo's generally have lvl limits like 50 or 60 or 70, so you can actually see getting to max level - Korean are lvl 100, lvl 150, and the grind after lvl 70 or 80 gets - well painful...
Character gender choice on start up - Western
Ok now let's talk about how Asian / Korean mmo's are superior to Western style mmo's:
Item Malls - Asian
Weapon and Armour slotting - Asian - I have to admit I really like the idea of weapon and armour slotting.
Flashy combat animations / pretty graphics - Asian
There you go. Western mmo's dominate the ratings here... because their build for a Western audience, the point of my post is if Asian / Korean mmo's want to make it here - they need to cater to our market.
If not they will always be "just ok" and have to cater to the preteen crowd with no money.