Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

When will asian mmo's figure it out?

2

Comments

  • GormandYGormandY Member Posts: 411

    Never

    Aion does look good never-the-less.

  • korvixkorvix Member Posts: 477
    Originally posted by GormandY


    Never
    Aion does look good never-the-less.

    Yup, im actually looking forward to Aion more so than I am for any other game. Its going to be very localized for the western market, so everyone thats crying Korean Grindfest might just actually like it ^^.

    image

  • TorakTorak Member Posts: 4,905
    Originally posted by zigmund


     
    Originally posted by Torak


     
    Originally posted by Zarraa


     
    Originally posted by zigmund


    When will they learn that Western players want depth and an interesting journey to the higher lvls with little grind? Why keep releasing these same types of games and then months later making them free? (basically admitting thAt they are a commercial failure in the West?)
    I just don't understand why Asian mmo's continue releasing to Western markets thinking we want another L2 clone, when honestly there's only room for one. Sorry guys that spots taken, there's just not enough Western style players to want another L2 grindfest.



    Hmm and what modern western MMO's other than maybe EQII offer this vaulted depth you speak of?

    Also (while poo-pooing the L2 model) you choose to whistle past the horde of EQI clones that  glut our beloved western MMO market. Truth is All MMO's have a grind and while some hide it a little better than others it's still a grind. So...are we finally ready to put this falicey to rest?

    You see there's plenty of room for both EQ & L2 clones now isn't there.

    So next time....rather than making charged statements that just as easily apply to our western titles why not just say you don't like Eastern / Asian style MMO's and leave it at that.

    *Sigh*

    I'm with you zarraa,

     

     

    I'm still waiting for someone to raddle me off that list of superior, depth driven, non-grind centered western MMO's.

    If you don't like them, fine. There are some stylisic differences but to even imply that western games are any different at their core is plain old nonsense.

    Talk your talk but provide something, anything to support your argument.

    On that note, list me a western game that has had any success on the level of an Asian game HERE aside from WoW or GW, let alone one that has had any success anywhere else in the world market. Sadly, our devs can't launch a game to save their lives. It really does stink.

     

    Western Style mmo's are much better than their Asian counterparts.

    The following games are pretty well all the same : 2moons, 9Dragons, Archlord, Cabal, Corum, Hero Online, Immortals USA, KalOnline, Knight online, Twelve Sky, Last Chaos, Rappelz, Silkroad.

    Dumb mob AI, click to move, no real pvp (you need to click and then if you do kill someone there's bad karma) and they call L2 and AL hard core pvp.... yah right. Senseless and repeitive grind.

    If you have played anyone one of those games you've probably played them all.

    Here's a list I made on another thread comparing Western mmo's to Asian / Korean.

    Game play in general - Western

    Could you a bit more vague? Thats personal preference

    UI Customiazation - Western - most Asian games allow no or very little keybinding options.

    Ok

    PVP and RVR - Western - most Asian games do not allow you to attack anotherp layer without pressing the ctrl key, and if you do kill someone you incur a bad kharma penalty that often takes hours ot work off.

    Crack, L2 is PvP driven. Your preference may not like how they do it but its there. The castle siege in L2 is far better then any of the laim excuses for "open PvP' most western games have. Lets call it virtual mugging in western games. DAoC is the only exception. WoW is capture the flag as is GW. I can play BF2 for that crap.

    Crafting - Western - most Korean games don't have any crafting at all.

    What skills did my dwarf have in L2....Hmmmm...crafting? FFXI I recall having crafting also

    Housing - Western

    Not, FFXI has housing (released in 2002) and L2 guild halls and castles.

    Auction Houses - Western - The Korean system of having players sit afk putting up signs is basic and poorly implemented, basically as a buyer you have to wade thru tons of players to find what you want.

    True, but its doesn't imply one is better over the other nor has more depth, its a matter of opinion. Again FFXI has both AH and player shops (released in 2002)

    Freedom of movement - Western - Click movement is ok, but the western style of keys is better. Why you ask? Well for the very reason that Korean merchant shops are poorly implemented - when I player L2 there are so many shops on the ground that often you can't even find a clear patch of ground to move to.

    again, preference, neither provides any more or less "depth" to play, many western MMOs have either or.

    Questing - Western - it really adds to the story if done properly and it takes away the feelign that you are grinding, plus a lot of games actually give some cool rewards for completing a quest.

    Kill 10 rats is kill 10 rats no matter who writes it.

    Raiding - Western - have you ever raided in L2 - a joke.

    again, preference. both have them, neither one has any more or less then the other.

    Mob AI - Western- this is my biggest beef against Korean mmo's - the dumbest mob AI I have ever seen, in fact in a lot of the newer Korean games they've dumbed down the mob ai so badly that mobs do not agro you until you actually start attacking them.

    Dunno on that, haven't run into very many challenging mobs in any MMO's, have you tried Vanguard? The mobs are idiots.

    City building - Western - nothing like it in Korean mmo's

    City building in how many games? 2 or 3? hardly a standard feature and the ones that do have it, have no real purpose aside from decoration and cluttering up the landscape. What games? Shadowbane? last I checked, this one was pretty much dead. SWG? same more or less. The examples of western games with any sort of cohesive city building are disasters of games.

    Less Grind - Western - hands down, Western mmo's generally have lvl limits like 50 or 60 or 70, so you can actually see getting to max level - Korean are lvl 100, lvl 150, and the grind after lvl 70 or 80 gets - well painful...

    Less grind? Are you out of your mind? Have you played WoW to any extent aside from capping??? Its grind - tastic!!!! The numbers are irrelevant. The grind is there in your face.

    Character gender choice on start up - Western

    Huh? L2 has that, FFXI has that...point? The cheapo clones don't maybe...Perfect World has one of the best character customizations around....and its free to play.

    Ok now let's talk about how Asian / Korean mmo's are superior to Western style mmo's:

    Item Malls - Asian

    Maybe good maybe bad, depends how you look at it. Not all Asian games have them. L2 doesn't, FFXI doesn't...

    Weapon and Armour slotting - Asian - I have to admit I really like the idea of weapon and armour slotting.

    WoW has it.

    Flashy combat animations / pretty graphics - Asian

    ok

     

    There you go. Western mmo's dominate the ratings here... because their build for a Western audience, the point of my post is if Asian / Korean mmo's want to make it here - they need to cater to our market.

    If not they will always be "just ok" and have to cater to the preteen crowd with no money.

     They dominate here on this site but the stats don't support it. Most western MMOs are dead or dying in pops aside from WoW. Whats left of the MMO community scurries to each new release and drops it when it turns out NOT to be the holy grail.

    Why isn't LotR running like gangbusters???? Why didn't Ryzom take off?

    They are "just ok". Every other gaming genre is taking off and MMOs just flop around like a fish pulled from the water. Sorry, its a weak, soft market here in the west. Spin it how you like. On PC shooters dominate, Halo 3 made more money then any hollywood blockbuster, then RTS and then every other genre with MMOs bringing up the tailend with Deer hunting 2007. If its wasn't for WoW and GW this genre would be dead (edit: in the west.) all I really walked away from with this counter-post is western games have customizable UI's and Asian have flasher combat, the rest is roughly the same depending on your taste. Given the choice based on that, I would take the "flashier combat" over the UI as when I installed a custom UI in Vanguard did squat for the game. Your argument was weak at best.

     

     

  • AmaraoAmarao Member UncommonPosts: 650

    Well, since we all seem to think that most mmos are asian grinders. (Which I agree with)

    Can anybody name some that aren't? WoW, is the only one that comes to my mind, and frankly, I cant stand that game. If someone would take L2 and make the grind easier, then that would be the best game ever. Full world PvP (fortresses in L2 soon) and easy to level, you cant do better.

  • devils_hymndevils_hymn Member Posts: 322

    The only reason why the USA keeps allowing Asian MMORPGs is because they don't contain led.

  • korvixkorvix Member Posts: 477

    Originally posted by Amarao


    Well, since we all seem to think that most mmos are asian grinders. (Which I agree with)
    Can anybody name some that aren't? WoW, is the only one that comes to my mind, and frankly, I cant stand that game. If someone would take L2 and make the grind easier, then that would be the best game ever. Full world PvP (fortresses in L2 soon) and easy to level, you cant do better.
    They do have L2 Private servers...

    TR is not very Grindy...when it comes to leveling, and by that I mean you level fast...you still grind.

    image

  • MaggotscreamMaggotscream Member Posts: 284

    Gameloading said it perfectly but I will say one thing to those who are blind.

    How do you think Blizzard have kept so many customers hooked on their game for so long? they've had GRINDING, it's simple. Patching with new dungeons to grind, new reputations to grind, new quests here and there to grind and many other things that require YOU to sit there everyday and Kill X for Y.

  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490



    If its wasn't for WoW and GW this genre would be dead.
    huh?
  • devils_hymndevils_hymn Member Posts: 322


    Originally posted by Maggotscream
    Gameloading said it perfectly but I will say one thing to those who are blind.
    How do you think Blizzard have kept so many customers hooked on their game for so long? they've had GRINDING, it's simple. Patching with new dungeons to grind, new reputations to grind, new quests here and there to grind and many other things that require YOU to sit there everyday and Kill X for Y.

    I like that formula for grinding/quest grinds "Kill X for Y". I want a different MMORPG one with ATB systems like the old final fantasies but not how Dofous and MWO have it.
  • korvixkorvix Member Posts: 477

    Originally posted by Maggotscream


    Gameloading said it perfectly but I will say one thing to those who are blind.
    How do you think Blizzard have kept so many customers hooked on their game for so long? they've had GRINDING, it's simple. Patching with new dungeons to grind, new reputations to grind, new quests here and there to grind and many other things that require YOU to sit there everyday and Kill X for Y.
    Grinding is a semi personal term, my idea of grinding and what I will do as far as grinding... will prolly differ from yours. However when someone uses the term we all have our idea of grinding and the overall idea. So when someone says grinding they may be refering to just siting in a field and killing mobs and not running quests over and over and doing dungeons, but when you use the word grind, you mean both...see what im getting at?

    Blizzard did a awesome job at hiding the grind in their game until one started raiding...

     

    image

  • TekkamanTekkaman Member UncommonPosts: 158

    I didn't see this throughout the pages, but I'll say this:

     

    How do western MMO's do in the East? Exactly... One big name for the most part.

     

    Asian MMO's don't need to figure anything out, it's you who does. Asian MMO's are made the way they are because that's what their populace likes. Do you think that they care about the other half of the world that is equal to a billionth of a percent of their game population? I doubt it :) They don't need to tailor-make anything for us on the other side of the world, simply put.

     

    Item malls most likely generate more than subscription based games if you look at even player base numbers. While they most likely never will be in the West, I'll tell you straight up that Perfect World, a Malaysian/Chinese MMO, is a free game that offers a very easy "grind" as well as a much better "storyline" than everything out at this time, save for DAoC (at times) and EQ2.

  • AmaraoAmarao Member UncommonPosts: 650

    Originally posted by korvix


     
    Originally posted by Amarao


    Well, since we all seem to think that most mmos are asian grinders. (Which I agree with)
    Can anybody name some that aren't? WoW, is the only one that comes to my mind, and frankly, I cant stand that game. If someone would take L2 and make the grind easier, then that would be the best game ever. Full world PvP (fortresses in L2 soon) and easy to level, you cant do better.
    They do have L2 Private servers...

     

    TR is not very Grindy...when it comes to leveling, and by that I mean you level fast...you still grind.

    What is TR?

    Leveling fast makes a much happier grind though. not 3 days of solid mob killing to be able to wear those new set of boots. I enjoy a game much more if you can still play it like  game, and not like it's work.

  • korvixkorvix Member Posts: 477

    whoops sorry, TR for Tabula Rasa.

    Not my cup of tea' but its worth looking into.

    image

  • tapeworm00tapeworm00 Member Posts: 549

    Originally posted by nomadian


     



    If its wasn't for WoW and GW this genre would be dead.
    huh?

     

    There's not a lot of profit to be made in The Matrix Online, for example. That's what he means. And this is where we are, currently. So desperate for a new attractive MMO that the OP lashes out on Asian-produced MMOs like it was their fault that they don't appeal to HIS taste, HIS way of thinking, HIS way of having fun, and whatever, which he identifies in general with the word "western". This is a niche genre, whether you like it or not, and it's working its way through... pretty slowly.

    Asian MMOs in general are a lot more successful than Western MMOs (even when going into F2P), and that's why THEY get imported, and not the other way around. The problem is that we're used to certain gameplay configurations, like prettied-up quests (as that poster said, killing 10 rats is killing 10 rats whether you're doing it to save the world from nuclear bombardment or just for xp), raiding teamplay, relatively forgiving and unrewarding PvP, etc. So, when we're faced with blunt quests, erratic teamplay, and a different type of PvP some people immediately react with rejection, simply because it's something they're not used to. That doesn't make one better than the other, au contraire, both systems are good enough to please a large quantity of different people, and I can certainly say that we the Western audience for MMOs are very dramatic and enthusiastic about the whole thing. Dunno about the Eastern audience, but I don't think they're just sitting on their butts playing Knight Online forever... they're innovating their own gaming form, but we're not getting those things yet, just like they got City of Heroes like 2 years after the original release, when maybe all of its innovation had perilously became standard.

    In the end, they don't need to figure anything out. You do. If you can't, stick to your WoW and EQ 2. Simple as that.

  • khragkhrag Member Posts: 184

    Why do they keep releasing these games that are not popular in North America but are popular in Asia?

    Math

    USA 345 million People

    Canada 35 million people

    China 1.7 BILLION people

    South Korea 45 Million

    Japan 127 Million

     

    Hmm lets make games for 380 million possible people on the other side of the planet or lets make games with  close to 2 billion possible consumers right next door?

    I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self.
    --Aristotle

  • AmaraoAmarao Member UncommonPosts: 650

    Originally posted by korvix


    whoops sorry, TR for Tabula Rasa.
    Not my cup of tea' but its worth looking into.
    yeah, I'm stayin away from that one myself.

    I'm hoping WAR and Aion will save me :P

  • AsamofAsamof Member UncommonPosts: 824

    Fact: 80% of the players on western server asian MMO's are bots.

  • TorakTorak Member Posts: 4,905

    Originally posted by Asamof


    Fact: 80% of the players on western server asian MMO's are bots.







    Statisic / demographic Source of said "fact"?

    What does that have to do with the topic?

  • yupeizuanyupeizuan Member Posts: 16
    Originally posted by zigmund


     
     
    Have you noticed a trend with Asian mmo's? Archlord huge grind failure as p2p game, goes free - subs double. Now RF Online huge grind, failure so what do they do - make it free to play.
    When will they learn that Western players want depth and an interesting journey to the higher lvls with little grind? Why keep releasing these same types of games and then months later making them free? (basically admitting thAt they are a commercial failure in the West?)
    The flood of free to play Asian grind fest mmo's is staggering, they just seem to keep making them... yes they continue tio "fail" here in the West - what are the Publishers thinking? Do they not understand that in order to be a commercial success you make a product that caters to your demographic?
    Are computer geeks that stupid, that they don't understand the basic tenants of product placement?
    Now before someone mentions that Anarchy Online and Shadowbane are free, yes they are - but their very dated games who were on a play to play subscritption plan for a fairly long period of time, and basically outlived themselves.
    I just don'tr understand why Asian mmo's continue releasing to Western markets thinking we want another L2 clone, when honestly there's only room for one. Sorry guys that spots taken, there's just not enough Western style players to want another L2 grindfest.

    Do you know that? Korean government treat game as a kinda of industry. It is a big business in their mind. sO it is very common for them to explore their market to foreign country. Just like google has a lot version for different country. It is a new type of international trade,

  • ZarraaZarraa Member Posts: 481

    Originally posted by yupeizuan


    Do you know that? Korean government treat game as a kinda of industry. It is a big business in their mind. sO it is very common for them to explore their market to foreign country. Just like google has a lot version for different country. It is a new type of international trade,
    You know this is something I didn't give much thought to but a good point nonetheless..

    If this is true we'll be seeing an increasing number of Eastern MMO's add Western elements.We're already starting to see this with newer titles like Granado Espada & Perfect World for example.

    The next couple of years is going to be an interesting time for MMO fans.

    Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
    Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.

  • Cabe2323Cabe2323 Member Posts: 2,939

    While Vanguard is a crappy game their Mob AI is much much much better then Asian games.

     

    IF you had played Vanguard you would of seen some of that.  For instance if you attacked a deer near one of the starter towns (I can't remember the name of it)  all of a sudden all of the bucks and other deer would defend that deer and would attack you.  Not ones that were in a group either, but in the general vicinity. 

     

    That is an example of better MOB AI.  The closer they can get MOBS to act like animals do in Real life the better the AI is. 

    Currently playing:
    LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)

    Looking Foward too:
    Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
    Originally posted by Cabe2323


    While Vanguard is a crappy game their Mob AI is much much much better then Asian games.
     
    IF you had played Vanguard you would of seen some of that.  For instance if you attacked a deer near one of the starter towns (I can't remember the name of it)  all of a sudden all of the bucks and other deer would defend that deer and would attack you.  Not ones that were in a group either, but in the general vicinity. 
     
    That is an example of better MOB AI.  The closer they can get MOBS to act like animals do in Real life the better the AI is. 

    That's nothing special special. Ragnarok Online has that feature and that game was released 5 years ago.

  • thorwoodthorwood Member Posts: 485

    A lot of new Mmorgs from both Asia and the West were flops. A few have been sucessful.

    The new free to play games are based on a different business model.  They make money from their "cash shops" where you buy "items" for use in the game world.  Western game companies have been trying for some time to come up with a business model that is transaction based, rather than relying on server subscriptions.  In this respect, the Asian companies are ahead of their western competitors.  Only time will tell what business models are successful.

    I have recenlty had a lot of fun playing a Korean Mmorg that has been translated into English.

    All games become boring after while and different people like different games.

    More Mmorgs means more choice for different personal preferences. 

  • PsyXPsyX Member Posts: 220

    Seriously this is getting me more and more annoyed the more I see it. "Asian mmos are all the same waah waaah waaah" followed by a short list of oh say.. 5 or 6 imported asian games that some people on this forum dislike and therefore deam as failures.

     

    If you look at every imported asian game that is still up and running to this date you will find that they all have a good and firm playerbase and quite obiviously are netting enough cash to keep both the dev's and the publishers happy , now if you wade through the never ending gamelist here on mmorpg.com and check out Western mmorpgs you will find that most of them except a small number mabye 10(ish..I'm just making up numbers that seam close enough here) are -dead- , be it that they are small indie games by some unheard of and unskilled devteam or million dollar corpses all and all they are ..dead, but then again thats just my own opionion based from what I have seen and played. So flame on

    And now for the whole "Waaah Asian mmo's are all the same"  "Asian dev's have to get a clue" blah blah and so on.. seriously saying/writing stuff like that will only make you look stupid. It is not the Asian devs that are doing something "wrong" here , it's the people that are importing the games to the western market that dont seam to understand what the western market wants. Asian games (korean and japanese especially) I usualy find to be very innovative and freash unlike the western mmo's "Hey let's play elfs and kill monsters!!".

     

    A quick look at some Asian games that -I- find to be very innovative and freash (you might have played a million mmo's like these before..what do I know)

     

    Dungeon and Fighter (korea) or Arad Senkei (JP)

    Is basicly a side scroller 2d fighter mmorpg with graphics and gameplay simmilar to games like street figher / Guilty gear. A linky to a random gameplay vid youtube.com/watch

     

    Field of honor (korea/tw?) mmofps/rts

    Think Starship troopers..humans vs ugly alien type thingies. youtube.com/watch

    And tons and tons more over here: www.onrpg.com/boards/1334.html if you feel like looking at those damn Asian grinders and thier l2 wannabeness. (onrpg aint that popular over here I know but..)

     

    Oh well sorry for the shotty writing..english aint my first language and I'm being tortured by a nasty cold at the moment.

     

     

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Member CommonPosts: 3,586

    I wouldn't exactly call Dungeon & Fighter "new" or "innovative." Although I would probably play it just to team up with some of my old arcade buddies that have scattered to the four winds over the years. I'm really kind of surprised that an indie developer hasn't already tried doing something like this...

    And what was with the painfully upbeat and homosexual music in the background of Field of Honor. Seriously, it just didn't fit the action that was on display....

Sign In or Register to comment.