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Immersion is the answer...
Ramzeppelin
Member Posts: 101
AS some know ive done a series on MMo issues...today I finish it with the biggest problem facing MMo's today.
The key is immersion....
There should be more jobs then we know what to do with..for example.
MMo's used to be about living inside another world, now they are huge battlegrounds. they bore us because we are taking months and moths of repetition to simply fight.
where is farming? crops growing and bug killing? seasons etc? Wanna change your look, go see a plastic surgeonmakeup artistarber! pet tamers? What about housing? wanna house, see an architect, tell him what you want, he designs it and then you place your house! need it decorated see your local decorater.
There should be nearly endless non essesntial jobs to make the world we live in feel real. Instead we have endless battlegrounds that take way too long to get across because there is so little to do but fight. By giving players the power to effect the world with a ton of jobs players interact more, and working hard in your field brings money in..
Also jobs should be immersive too, cook on a stove, cook it too long its less effective, etc, make jobs fun to do! help us care about our virtual world!
Crafting in general is a joke, we should bring back resources of varying qualities, so throughout the year copper of varying qualities for example show up randomly. saving your best resources to make stuff with rocked hard....all weapons were different depending on who you bought them from. now its been reduced to mindless boredom.
I used to think about my virtual world when I was'nt in it, now I know it will be the same tommmorow or a year from now, fight, maybe harvest some, make same items everyone else is...no immersion...
Lets make developers create a virtual world where your name actually meant somthing in, where you even slept in while gone. If not having the time to tend to your crops is an issue then there is another job waiting to be created, the people who get paid to tend things when your gone! give players control over much more and youll see happier virtual people! :-}
Let us play music, wanna play the banjo? you guessed it, see your local music teacher...let us write songs and perform in auditoriums! simply put let us get immersed first fight second, this way were actually fighting for somthing we really care about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you
Comments
I agree 100%.
The only two games that ever did all of that were UO and SWG.
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Besides design flaws, people's reluctance to give a damn about a game that you've got to play in at least three hour chunks is a big problem.
Even the best writers have to sometimes "trick" their readers into an emotional investment. Add a busy schedule, or God help us, a short attention span to that equation and you're getting nowhere fast.
I made a post on this same subject a few weeks ago and am in agreement with you. Immersion is the answer, has always been the answer and will always be the answer. Rule number #1 for any MMO is that you have to feel like you have been transported into another world, a world unlike the one you live in now.
I'll never forget the very first time I played my very first MMO which was Everquest. One of my first thoughts was, "I'm in a fantasy world." That's what it's all about. If you're a Dev and you're making an MMORPG, if you're not thinking that when you are testing it, you might as well shelve it or start over from scratch.
But there is one caveat to this rule. Don't make it overly realistic so as to be tedius. The great director, Alfred Hitchcock, said drama is life with the boring parts taken out. Make an MMO as immersive as possible but try to remove as much of the boring stuff as possible.
Sadly for a lot of players unless it s static NPC with a floating chalice / star / anvil / whatever above there head, handing out kill X of this and later Y of that.. types quests. Well most players cannot cope.
I completley agree that immersion is a great thing but were talking about many gamers here who wouldn't: read text of any kind, listent to voice overs, do complex quest lines, wait for a group, learn a detailed combat , understand detailed crafting. Yeah ok ... I'm cynical about the future of this genre. But outside of the genre us MMORPG are being laughed at because of things like this. Our genre is pretty stale and lackluste at the moment. (Having said that many modern games are pretty dumbed down and EXACT rehashes of old stuff)
I like the world persistance thing though. Going to bed for real at night in your own house / someones inn.
Unfortunately it seems that the market has gone away from the RPG elements of the games of yore. Look at the RPG genre in and of itself. I would hazard a guess that there are more people that think of things like Titan's Quest as an RPG rather than an action game with minor rpg trappings.
RPG's especially single player one's take years upon years to create anymore and publishers want a quick turn around on their money. We no longer see the games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, or Fallout because they take so very very long to produce and satisfy a niche market. Whereas a game like Diablo, Titan's Quest, or most likely Hellgate: London can be easily picked up by someone and quickly gotten into.
Things like living a virtual alter existence in a virtual world are the last things that the majority of developers are focusing on anymore, unfortunately.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I agree with everything you said and most things said in the prior post, but just the fact that people are taking time to post/reply to threads like this means the market hasn't gone away from the devolpers the developers have gone away from us. If a game was made that incorperated all the things the OP posted I think the developer would find a lot of old school mmo players ready to pay to play. Todays focus on flashy graphics and pvp combat has alienated a lot of gamers, don't misunderstand me I enjoy pvp but I think In a perfect mmo world you should be able to spend your time on any given day doing EXACTLY what you feel like doing. Never feeling pigeon holed into any acticity. This forum should serve as a shining example to any dev who wants to take the time to listen to the public, every day there are posts by someone who is quiting a game, or giving up the whole genre because his gaming needs are no longer being met. Its a sad reality.
As you can see, I disagree with your point of view. Think about this, when the games you spoke about first came, out, like SWG and UO.... they were considered to be niche games, with small player bases..and the first thing those games did to make them more appealing to the masses was to remove the "difficult, boring and tedious" tasking and occupations out of them.
You fail to realize, people like you and the other posters in this thread are in the minority....most of us don't want what you do..and game developers are coding to what the masses want, and not for the avant-garde.
My complaint today is too many games stray from their core design elements, that of combat and exploration and divert valuable resources to useless areas like housing, player outfits, and crafting. Since its impossible to be everything to everyone...the games up providing mediocre experiences for all players.
I'm hoping that WAR changes this... Mythic has said they are concentrating on core combat over all other elements...if so, we may finally get the game I've been looking for...w/o the "bad" elements that I have come to despise in previous games.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To the post immediately prior to me:
With all due respect if what you say is true then why did a popular game like SWG become an unpopular game after the changes you rave about them implementing occurred. Read the SWG forums and tell me people are happy with the changes. How many other forums on this site have a board dedicated to disgruntled former players. I am not about to make any assumptions concerning your MMO experience but have you played SWG before and after the changes it is not IMHO a better gaming experience now. I watched a thriving on-line community dwindle down as person by person everyone i enjoyed gaming with left the game turning our player built town with over 100 unique occupants into an on-line ghost town. Obviously you don't like the same sort of games that we do but saying that because you cannot appreciate them the masses cannot is a blanket statement based on one person preferences. We are discussing what we would like in a game we would play not bashing the ones you enjoy
I agree with the OP.
An RPG is not just about combat, I think recent MMORPG are losing the RPG element in it, focusing too much on combat and less on comunity interaction, lore and quality quests.
I have to say that what makes me want to log on into a MMO is the immersion, and there is none of it in the majority of latest games, cause as soon as you log on, your activity is focused on combat (grind) or meaningless PVP.
Please put back the RPG in the MMORPG.............
Oh Kyleran, why must you be so wise?
I partially agree with you that the 'core' elements of a MMORPG that make it worth playing and fun in my mind and my heart are combat and character advancement.
I like exploring and seeing all the content that is available, but exploration is not as important to me as advancement. I want my character to get better and more powerful the more I play. I want this to be visually and mathmatecialy apparent. Yes, I'm a stat tweeker at heart.
I consider things like crafting and housing more 'social' game systems, more complimentary to the other, more important systems.
I really don't like crafting all too much, and resource gathering is the most boring and monotoneous task in any MMORPG if you ask me...
Housing, eh, it's kind of fun to collect all this crazy stuff and decorate your house like I used to do in UO. Is it essential? To me, the answer is no.
I generally dislike when all the uber-best gear is crafted by players because crafters will charge SO MUCH MORE then the item is actually worth. I don't mind working toward something, but not when it's farming for money to by something I 'need' from a greedy crafter.
So, you get a game where they get the combat and character advancement right, make it about skill and preperation, not about gear and grinding... like hopefully WAR will be... and you got me hooked.
To me, immersion is how Paul Bennet describes it. You think about it, you dream about it, you talk to your friends about it..... not what many people describe as "immersion" which is that you are playing... and you don't realize your house is on fire, your girlfriend left, and you haven't eaten in a week.
MMOs try to throw in too much little "fluff" content to keep people busy and try to call it "immersion" instead of focusing on making a core experience that is excellent, addicting, and most of all fun.
I agree with the OP on the topic of immersion. I had written a semi-similar blog a short while ago mmorpg.com/blogs/Meltdown/102007/562_Feed-Your-Head talking about how developers have strayed from what would bring immersion to a game and making us feel connected and now target the "cool" stuff that may lack depth but is easy and simple. Kyleran makes good points though, but I believe one could say "different strokes for different folks". From the sound of it you perfer action-RPG while the majority of the posters in this thread would rather play in-depth RPGs (probably most are familiar with the old PnP games).
And thats fine. There's more than one market out there, but I feel like because the action-RPG market is so much bigger than the other markets they are now just an afterthought in game design. Which from a business standpoint makes sense, but its why people are unhappy with current gameplay/game design. And which is why the next big thing for us in the smaller market will be created by Indie Game Developers or little-known games made from smaller companies who are not looking to pull in the number of subs WoW does.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
You might feel that the MMORPG world is changing in a negative way but in actuality it has gotten bigger.
WOW and other games have brought in MILLIONS of new people who MMORPG. These "newbies" who are still new to a real MMORPG have flooded the marketplace. However all this means is that the market is getting bigger and it is growing everyday.
There is a growing uptapped market. Those who are not new and have "been there done that" is contiunes to grow and yes they may leave the marketplace but they will still come back. The explosion of MMORPGs is confusing to many. There are a few big ones however the small ones still take up subscribers. As some of the older MMOs die off their subscribers will be looking to go to other places.
I want more immersion as well and think its a market that is relativly untapped right now. Eve offers some immersion with a complex economic system, trading etc however living only inside a ship and with such a huge universe you don't feel as much part of a community. (Note they will be adding the ability to walk and dock in stations along with improved graphics which will cause a rush to Eve).
The biggest change I think we will see is that servers will be able to hold more and more people. Not only that but the lag will be reduced even in populated areas. This along with an ever increasing mature community will make MMOs bigger more detailed as time goes on.
Are immersion and RPG elements totally alien to the action packed PvP lead hack and slash ? I'm pretty confident that the two can be combined. I like to pick herbs sometimes I've got a major grump on and want to pick on someone
. Even Genghis Khan has his senistive days.
As for the MMO developers. Pfft I dont think half of them know what there doing. Let alone develop balanced gaming aspects which players can explore or swap in and out of, or even a semi decent original combat systems. Let alone develop multiple MMO's from one engine catering to differing tastes. This is something that as the MMO market matures and develops and refines (as consumers do) they are going to have to start addressing. An MMO isnt a genre in itself , it is also MMO + any other genre. Unless anyone wants to argue that we should only have on dominate genre of game. ( or one movie genre for that matter).
As for WAR.. pffft... same old. Same old. Nothing new here even for combat dwellers. .... IMHO !
These games have been around before, people just fail to play them. Name recognition was used in some games and LOTRO allows you to edit your names history but nobody cares or puts that on a pedestal sorta speaking. LOTRO has music, you can create anything using midi or plugin intruments to your PC. Many have gotten together to play things and perform. Having an auditorium to do this would be highly unimersive since you then are giving people no options to where they could play. In a RPG style game fantasy, the people play where they wish.
Other games have failed on doing seasonal changes. I think it would be cool but highly unimersive again. Why would you go through winter to summer in a few days played, if you played as a hardcore gamer this would be very unimersive watching the weather change so rapidly. So they would need to make it on a wide scale and then it becomes a problem.
Crafting for resources controlled by environment variables has been done. Many other older games have this and some newer ones. But not to the point where you only get random quality of each node. That would be extremely unimersive if you think about it. Having the idea of a rocks or ore forming randomly in one area that has a higher quality then lets say a very rich mountain area that's harder to get to would seem a little unfair. UO had a fantastic system for ore and generally people look at that as the medium for how it should work. Like in the real world you do not have all the best stuff in one area, it is limited and near the harder to reach areas.
If you really want to make the game immersive then make the small things stick out. Being able to click furniture to sit down. Games in the game you can play like cards etc. Being able to build a campfire to actually keep beasts away in the cold outskirts of towns and then cook your meals while watching your avatar place food in a cooking pan or something then eating the food to add statistical buffs. Having people be able to hire NPC's to do jobs where the NPC's can talk back to you with tons of pre- AI code. Have live events where a GM can inhabit a person to run live quests for a day.
Having the weather come in slow and develop clouds overtime then rain. Having a meter on your window that shows when your cold or hot. Being to cold would make you move slower and being to hot would make you weaker. Have fun with it, the developers of our time now do not care for the small stuff. Have your avatar sink to the bottom of a river or ocean if they swim with armor on. Taking it off you swim freely.
I can think of 1000 more things to make a game more immersive then the few I listed but you get the idea.
I always wondered, those were the first two mmorpgs I played hardcore
and no other game ever came close, they just missed out so much on the crafting, housing and social side of the world!!
And Horizons, another great game plagued with massive corporate mismanagement. Of the 3 (Horizons, SWG and UO), only UO survives in playable condition with all the immersion intact. And the recent Kingdom Reborn has added a much-needed graphics overhaul, though it's still a bit unstable at the moment.
For my money, pre-CU SWG was the best MMORPG. Being a crafter and healer at heart, that game let me play an integral role in the world while not needing to be uber in combat. And with all the customization options of character and living space, and with the integral non-combat professions (entertainers!) it really DID feel like a world for the couple of years before SOE destroyed it. Horizons had a very similar feel, though in the fantasy realm, and had far less restriction on what you could do with your skills. I loved that one too, but it was mishandled from the start. Too bad. It could've been a real winner.
So I'm left with UO (coming up on my 6th year) and EVE. Immersion in EVE is tougher with no avatar to hang a hat or helmet on.
Is there anything you folks see on the horizon (sic) for a return to immersive MMORPGs?
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
I agree with the OP. Alas, most new MMOs are either too simplified or the hurdle is far too high to participate (like the prices of ships in VG).
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is true and unfortunately players become too accustomed to these little perks. I hate it when I see a little icon floating over the head of an NPC. It totally ruins the immersion factor. I think devs are too willing to give gamers what they ask for, because a lot of times, gamers don't realize that they would enjoy the game more if it wasn't there. Floating icons are a good example. Another example is maps. I think most players would say that they prefer to have a map on the interface to save time. But the problem is it removes an uncertainty factor that adds suspense (and therefore, excitement) to the game. Just think how much more tense you would get if you wandered into an unknown area and weren't sure of your bearings. Not knowing if danger lurked right around the corner or not. For me, that trumps a time saving map on the interface anytime.
I too agree with the majority of you. Immersion = Fun-factor IMO. I've only played one MMO that I would leave work early to play or call in sick after patch days (it was pre-WoW). Personally, I blame Blizz for making such a huge success of a MMO.
As soon as developers stop trying to mimic WoW's success, we'll see better MMO's.
oh gimmie a break WAR is an auto-attack wonder thats all their combat system will be.
Next, Elder Scrolls Oblivion I can have a house and run a shop. Its lead sales for console games for a long, long time and was top for PC games.
Publishers use metacritic ratings bottom line.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/starwarsgalaxies?q=star%20wars%20galaxies [77]
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraft?q=world%20of%20warcraft [93]
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/ultimaonline?q=ultima%20online [59]
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/vanguardsagaofheroes?q=vanguard [68]
I'm tired of people trying to compare World Of Warcraft 93 to other MMOs. Right there we have a huge problem- if anything publishers must hit a high mark to sell.
That's it, Blizzard strove for quality and they nailed it. Good hype and popular gameplay nailed it
I know you didnt say that cured WoW word but you spoke of 'masses' and tried to categorize sandbox players into a minority which is not true period
I kind of disagreed when I first clicked on this thread. Then after reading it I realized that immersion is what I have been wanting.
I first played UO and have never felt any game after has been near as good. Now I realize that immersion is why no game has measured up. Immersion is what I have been dreaming of and hoping for without realizing it. I always thought a good combat system was what is missing, but immersion would also help cover that up. I guess a good combat system kind of goes with immersion.
I had been wanting a virtual world and I think that is what an immersive game will be.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
I wonder what WoW has done honestly. all those newbies coming from WoW will demand somehting just like it how else can we explain WAR being #1 hype....
Richard Bartle explained this phenemenon well in "Virtual Worlds Are Being Designed by Newbies"
Well that's great news! It's always nice when gamers realize what it is that makes an MMO work. The more of us there are to hammer this point home, the more likely the devs are to get it. I hope.
Sure you can watch the snow fall in WOW in certain areas or the rain fall in the swamps of some other mmo but that's the regional climate.