Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why is Random Level Design Good?
Wolfsheim
Member Posts: 29
Why do many people think that Randomly generated levels (at least how all developers make them) are a good thing?
The supposed random levels in many games are really just recycling of the same textures in boxy rooms in slightly different order. They dont effect how you play through the level one bit.
Rather than make a level randomly get built, why not design the level with the best detail you can that actually fits into a story, and then that level could come up randomly maybe when you enter portals.
What truly should make the level replayable over and over is the variables that occur between different monsters that might be on the levels and how they end up interacting with the players randomly. You can run through the same level many many times and constantly have unique things happening if the creatures have decent AI and actually ROAM the levels like a player does. Even let some monsters be smart enough to use loot they randomly find even on other dead monsters against the players. Imagine a monsters running over to a weapon dropped, picking it up, and using it! Or other items this way. This creates infinite varieties of situations each time you play through the levels. Maybe some creatures on a level may be against other creatures, and when they randomly stumble accross each other could end up in their own fights. These kinds of dynamic situations allow for replaying levels and getting new experiences each time. Having a radom level generator is the Laziest method of all for creating replay value. A well designed Level with thinking monsters running through are 100x more interesting to experience again and again than the same crap over and over in "randomly" built levels that look ultimatly the same anyway and have no gameplay value because they are simplified for the purpose of being randomly generated. You see you give up much much more gameplay by having a random level generator built in, than you gain.
I wish there would be sites that would setup interviews with developers more as a discussion and engage them more about these kinds of concepts rather than just asking them the same tired questions with no followups.
Bring back Liberty, Freedom, & The Constition. Save America from Corporatism. -RonPaul2008
Comments
Its more for the multiplayer aspect so that certain players don't have the entire map collection memorized. As you noted, its the easy cop out solution. I've seen so very, very few games with even a half decent AI. Just judging off of the demo, Hellgate London has ensured that its levels will indeed be just as exciting the tenth time through as the first: drop dead boring.
And, completely unrelated, yes.
Well I know people say that its so players dont feel they are memorizing the same level, but they are memorizing the generic pieces of those generate randomly generated chunks. They memorize how the chunks are going to be organized and exactly how it will play out. Thus the whole "random" feature is just a false bit of hype to make something sound better than it actually is.
Nethack had the whole random thing down perfect. And no other game has done it that well since, including Diablo. Randomly generated levels is a Limitation, not a feature. IMO.
Oh and I sent you a PM, Dante.
Bring back Liberty, Freedom, & The Constition. Save America from Corporatism. -RonPaul2008
Because it makes it feel like the game is different.
I agree with the point about recycled tilesets, also know that the enemies change due to level and party size as well.
Current Games:
For me randomization = good
Some of the greatest games in the history of computer games in general used randomization extensively... Lords of Midnight, Elite (8-bit games dudes
) and later Civilization series etc. Randomization is cool in my book because it means that you are going against something which doesn't care for your "personal enjoyment" - you actually don't know whether the fight is going to be fair. You have to use your ingenuity and imagination each time you go out.
Games that are overly scripted/balanced for the player are boring to me - why should I play the game at all if I know that some person designed my "experience" so that I am guaranteed to "win" if I put in some effort and find out the "correct" route? I want the feeling that I don't know whether it is possible to win at all each time I go out, and even then find some outlandish way to accomplish my goals anyway.
This is the reason why multiplayer games are so popular - unpredictability. Randomization is another way to introduce more unpredictability in games, which is one of the key defining features of any good game (from board games onwards)...
(This is why I'm against "stories" in games - "stories" must be carefully crafted and linear which is more appropriate for other mediums like literature and film. Games that rely on stories become linear and predictable and suffer as a cause. A good setting is a different matter... A game can have awesome and rich setting but no story except those made by player/players themselves - this is the point HG:L devs understand very well imho)
As for HG:L in particular - I hear that apart from levels and items, even the monsters themselves will have randomized features (i saw burning zombies mentioned). This would be extremely cool - For example as you go out that same old hatch you realize that most mobs are now immune to fire for example... or they have a 50% speed boost at expense of hp or they have a jumping capability.. This would definitely rise my heart rate a bit every time I go out on a mission.
(HG:L is like a box of chocolate. You never know what you're gonna get.
)
Different layout, different strategy...no ?
Oh. I forgot. There are people that RUSH through the levels like they´re mouses on cheesehunt.
Random level design makes for greater replayability. It is that simple. Same goes for randomized item statistics and monsters with random attributes etc.
Diablo 2 was great at achieving this, as well as the mission system in Anarchy Online. Both games would have sucked with static level design.
Static, detailed designed levels may be great for single player more story/adventure focused RPG's. This game is not, and does not try to be that.
Randomized levels are implemented for two reasons. First, so that the dungeon isn't the exact same every time you enter. This adds variety to the game, and prevents players from burning out as quickly. Secondly, and IMO most importantly, it discourages, if not completely destroys, the use of bots to farm dungeon content. From the D2 perspective, this was the very worst plague to the game, despite seemingly randomized dungeons. The problem with D2 was that the dungeons weren't randomized enough. So now the real question is whether HGL will be randomized enough to stop the bot programs.
Yeah that is one thing that might hinder bots. But the main thing when compared to D2 I think, is that with subscribers the devs will actually have the means to actively combat botters/hackers/dupers etc.
It's not. It's just a way for them to try and convince people that the game won't get boring when you're running through the same level over and over and over. But most of us know how that will work out. The monsters are the same and the level will look exactly the same but don't worry guys! the layout will be slightly different each time!
That is why I play games like F.E.A.R. and Halo 3 for complex, unpredictable A.I. that makes things different every time.
Randomly generated content is a cop-out to good A.I.
But that's ok, no MMO has really had incredibly good A.I.
Why?
I dunno, it's gotta be technical limitations because other games have been doing it for a while now.
Randomly generated Levels. If the game play is limited then random generated levels can help keep up the replayablity.
What I despise in MMOs is the world almost never changes. No matter what happens to the world your character inhabits.
There is no excuse for not changing the world in which we play.
Back in the early days of MMOs there was a game, Asherons Call. In that game the world changed through the course of over arching plot lines, whole towns were obliterated the terrain of the land was burned and blackened . Floating Shadow Citidels crashed to the ground and lay there as reminder of the great Shadow war. The world changed.
Most MMOs now are exactly the same. The same starting areas that never change the same old GoldShire the never changing Freeport or the Solid Static Camelot. Never changing, never growing, never dieing, MMO worlds.
If the true MMOs out there wont offer us a changing worlds then some Randomly Generated Levels might entertain me for a while. Beats seeing the same damn starting areas every day with every new character.
My 2 cents
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
... I'm sorry, but Halo 3 has some pretty weak A.I. Let's see:
Throw a grenade - they throw it back...
Shoot at them - they find cover, and return fire...
C'mon this "A.I." has been used over, and over since Medal of Honor back on the Playstation One.
Do you guys even really know what it takes to create a random map program? You make it sound like its something anyone can do. It's not just tile 1 here, and next time tile 2, or 3,4, or 5. If you've actually played the game you see that the streets go in different directions, no pathway is like it was before. Everytime you visit some place you have no idea where to go, and if you're going to survive.
Randomly generated content adds to the suspense of the game, because like someone else mentioned before me the unknown factors. If you don't know whats going to happen doesn't the game have more replay value? F.E.A.R. was a really great game to play...once. Once you remember all the spooky sequences the game was very linear, and boring. The problem with trying to force an experience is that gamers will see through it, and the gameplay becomes linear, tired, and boring.
Hellgate has random maps, and random spawns within those maps. You don't always see the monsters from a distance. Sometimes you have to trigger them. I think these spawns add to the suspense, and will add to the replayability.
One problem I do have is that the game seems a bit too easy, but since I'm still so early in the game I will wait until the final relase to make a proper call on this one. I do like the feeling of slaying tons of monsters, but I think there should be a proper balance so that you still feel challenged.
I think it's simple
1. Pre made content=i know theres going to be enemies coming up in this room. If i run in, duck to my right i can wait for the enemies to kill. I know what areas coming up, i know what guns are where, i know where to get more ammo. It can make a strong single player run through a game, but will it give me vast replayability over months? not really.
You can use the excuse of "but the ai makes it replayable" Bzzzt i'm sorry but your wrong. AI is AI is AI, there is good ai where it will respond to the same triggers in similar ways. bad ai will rush at you and you mow it down. Either way you know the enemies are there, what weapons they have, and where they can go.
2. Random content=I don't know what's coming up, i don't know whats going to be in the next room, and i don't know whats going to drop. It will give more replayability because it'll be different each time. But it won't be as "cool" as the FIRST time you go through a pre made world.
Go play a fps, find ONE level, and save at the beginning, finish it, do it over again, again and again. Tell me it's still fun, it's still challenging/unpredictable.
Premade=Better first experiences, less fun over time.
Random=Okay first experiences, just as fun over time.