Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Key Question: IF the Bioware MMO Does Have Jedi....
hubertgrove
Member Posts: 1,141
Perhaps the greatest single argument that brought the NGE to SWG was this: should Jedi be an alpha class in the game?
I remember Helios at one convention saying; 'In my opnion, there never should have been an Alpha class'. Of course, he only said that after thousands of us had ground for two years, hours ever day, only to see our hard won jedi nerfed to nothing ness. Now - if we assume for the sake of this thread that Bioware is making a KOTOR game - here's the question:
Should Jedi be an alpha class in 'Kotor Online' (if it a/. Was hard to get? b/. Had restrictions to visibility and overuse? c/. Had penalties (but NOT permadeath) by which I mean, it would be tougher and have more powers than any other class in the game?
or
Should Jedi be just one of say 15-20 Beta Classes (ie. Bounty Hunter, Rifleman, Fencer, Doctor, Combat Medic, Pikeman etc?)
or
Or Should Jedi be one of, say 5 other Alpha Classes (if ALL were hard to get to, had restrictions etc) like Nightsister, Emperor's Hand, Teras Kasi, Antaran Ranger etc.?
[NOTE to Star Wars Geeks - yes, I know there were no Emperor's Hands before Palpatine but you know the kind of thing I mean...)
Comments
It should be hard to get but.... everyone wants to play a jedi in Star Wars games and they do want to make money
I don't think EA's MMO will ever see the light of day. There is no real Bioware any more, they're just another good company sucked up by a bad one.
Nope, they said they are still Bioware and will keep their originality, so, even this can be an advantage , with financal resources supplied by EA and the uniqe creativity of Bioware, the MMO can be awasome.
Granted, this is from Wiki...but I think it's an important read...
Criticism
EA is often criticized for buying smaller development studios primarily for their intellectual property assets, and then making the developers produce mediocre games on these same franchises. For example, Origin-produced Ultima VIII: Pagan and Ultima IX: Ascension were developed quickly under EA's ownership, over the protests of Ultima creator Richard Garriott,[7] and these two are considered by many[8] as not up to the standard of the rest of the series.[9][10]
EA is also criticized for shutting down its acquired studios after a poorly performing game.[11] [12][13] The historical pattern of poor sales and ratings of the first game shipped after acquisition suggests EA's control and direction as being primarily responsible for the game's failure rather than the studio. Magic Carpet 2 was rushed to completion over the objections of designer Peter Molyneux and it shipped during the holiday season with several major bugs. Studios such as Origin, Westwood Studios, and Bullfrog had previously produced games attracting a significant fanbase, and when they were closed down many top designers and programmers refused to stay with EA and formed rival studios. Many fans also became annoyed that their favourite developers were closed down, but some developers, for example the EALA studio, have stated that they try to carry on the legacy of the old studio, in this case Westwood Studios. EA has also received harsh fire from labor groups for its dismissals of large groups of employees during the closure of a studio (see below). Such was the case with the game GoldenEye: Rogue Agent.[14]
After releasing many products, the lack of support is notable in many games, assured by the fact that EA declared openly that it would no longer support relatively new but still buggy titles, like Need for Speed: Most Wanted, Need for Speed: Underground and some of the latest Command & Conquer[15] games.
Electronic Arts declined to support the Dreamcast in favor of Sony's PlayStation 2.[16]
EA has also been criticized for other aggressive business methods like the acquisition of 19.9 percent of shares of its competitor Ubisoft in what was called a "hostile act" by Ubisoft CEO, Yves Guillemot.[17] However, this has not materialized into anything hostile and Guillemot later indicated that a merger with EA was a possibility.[18]
[edit] Criticism for server shutdowns
EA has also received criticism for shutting down their servers for many of their games. The reasons for these server shutdowns are still relatively unclear. It is safe to assume that the reason for the shutdowns is because of the lack of use some of these servers receive and the cost to keep them running. Games like Tiger Woods PGA Tour 06, older games from the Madden series, and Burnout Revenge for both the original Xbox and Playstation 2 (The Xbox 360 version of Burnout Revenge is unaffected) have all had their servers shut down both in 2006, and again in 2007. Servers for many games were shutdown on September 1, 2007, and will happen again on November 1, 2007.
It is notable to point out that some of EA's older games, for example Burnout 3: Takedown, for the original Xbox, have not had its Xbox Live server(s) shutdown, even though this game is over three years old. This is most likely due to its popularity online and its frequent use of the servers.
P.S. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but as one of the many SWG fans who ended up thoroughly disappointed and disgusted, I'd hate to see people end up there all over again.
I still think the original idea was good .... make it very hard to become Jedi, tell no-one how-to and have it different for every user. Visibility was a good system, and make dying to a bountyhunter punish you very hard ...
I wouldn't make Jedi an Uber-jedi class ... but do give them some unique and slightly more powerfull skills ... give us a reason to work hard for them
I am shocked most of you chose the alpha-class choice. You have not learned from the mistakes of SWG. Alpha classes, uber sword of +100 narlyness, shield of +90 Godliness, promotes grinding. Grinding negatively effects a player economy and also ruins socialization. Grinding, also promotes class based gaming since everything revolves around combat (healer-buffer-nuker-tank).
Of course, this then is the classic dichotomy split that destroyed SWG - those who want an Alpha class and those who just want to be Betas.
Why the hell would you look at KotOR the same as SWG? Two different games, two different developers, two different styles. Worrying about the damn Jedi is what screwed SWG to begin with.
Want my take on how to do it?
1.) Give everyone the same damn base skills (str, sta, dex, etc.).
2.) Make a secondary set of skills for each type of gameplay ( melee, firearms, hand to hand, etc. ).
3.) Give a finite amount of points that can be divided between those secondary skills, and make the strength of the secondary skills dependant upon your base stats skills.
4.) Lightsabres should be classified as melee, but should also be dependant upon a base skill such as wis or int, therefore you could be one heck of a lightsabre wielder, but you won't be wearing any combat armor and your natural defence would be lowered. The same goes for firearms/ranged, hand to hand, etc. Therefore, everyone must decide if they want a higher defence or offence, they can't have both.
5.) Jedi must also choose between having really strong force powers, or really strong lightsabre ability. Can't have both.Considering in the KotOR timeline, Jedi are still growing back into the stream of things,most having been killed or gone into exile, there are not going to be Jedi Masters running all over the place. This is what made Jedi an alpha class in SWG, the stupid "Master" title. 99% of Jedi are not Darth Banes or Yodas.
6.) In regards to those Jedi who choose strong force powers, give the ability to have mind-strengthening teachings to other "classes", to counteract this. Make players choose what they're going to do ahead of time. If you're going to be a smuggler, you don't really need to have your mind strengthened against Jedi, whereas a Mandalorian or Bounty Hunter would.
7.) Not all classes are damn fighters. Playing a medic or a smuggler? You're not going to get far in PvP in general, unless it's a group PvP setting. Support classes should be just that: support. This is where Bioware shines, as they take basic rules such as these to heart.
8.) Crafting should be available to everyone. There is no reason that the ability to make a coffee pot should mean you can't fire a damn blaster. However, those who wish to specialize can scour the galaxies for special ingredients/recipes to put them above your everyday dressmaker.
9.) Same thing for entertaining: should be available to everyone. Strip down and dance. How fricken hard is that? Again, those who want to specialize can scour the galaxies for special routines and such. Entertainers should not be buffbots ( neither should medics). The entertainers in SWG were designed to be for roleplaying, but someone forgot that little tidbit somewhere along the line. When the entertaining individual wants to make creds, strap on your blaster and go make some. Or be a crafter/entertainer ( for those who eschew combat).
This is just a baseline, and is nowhere near complete. But I think it shows that everyone can be equal in the things they want to do, while not breaking the game.
That's all well and good but, basically, your answer is 'Everyone has to be a Beta profession', right?
I think Pre-Cu SWG had it fine personally when it came to Jedi, they were seen occasionally ( at least in the earliest versions ) but they were hard enough to get that you'd only see one or two in a place at any given time.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
I'm telling you. It's the damn "alpha-beta-cappa" crap (mainly from PvPers, but PvErs do it too) mentality that will kill this game before it even begins.
I swear, this thread just made me relize I don't even want to think about discussing a Star Wars mmo anymore, because it's going to be the SWG mentality and problems all over again. And it won't be Biowares' fault, or even Lucas Art fault. It'll be the damn community.
If EA have the licence to do a star wars MMO and its a big if all it will be is WOW with jangly bells on..9 cajillion subs for that game cant be wrong (looking it from a suits POV) and theres a snowball chance in hell of them deviating very much from the WOW template..sad but true IMO EA likes and makes lots and lots of cash they buy and strip down game studios one by one and take away the soul of the game/studio i expect therm to do the very same thing with Bioware..a leopard wont change its spots.
I'm telling you. It's the damn "alpha-beta-cappa" crap (mainly from PvPers, but PvErs do it too) mentality that will kill this game before it even begins.
I swear, this thread just made me relize I don't even want to think about discussing a Star Wars mmo anymore, because it's going to be the SWG mentality and problems all over again. And it won't be Biowares' fault, or even Lucas Art fault. It'll be the damn community.
Yes, but the whole point of playing a game is to grade players - I mean, in any game from tiddlywinks to three-dimensional chess.If you yourself are not competitive and don't like the 'alpha-beta-cappa crap' then, I genuinely believe, you are not in the majority. And I don't think you should be able to limit rewards for prolonged gameplay/in-game achievement/solo or group work just because you don't want those rewards for yourself. Of course, there will always be those who wish to play support or social professional - and I hope the game caters for them too - but those players should not be able to restrict those in other professions.
You say that you think Jedi spoiled SWG; I say that i only stayed in the game for four years and opened two other support accounts because I could play Jedi as an Alpha profession. It will be Bioware's challenge to reconcile our two points of view.
I still think lucasArts and BioWare have failed to see that dispite Lucas's orginal intentions Star Wars is no longer just about the Sith and Jedi and their struggles, There are plenty of other things that these companies continously look over and all though BioWare was kind enough to atleast mention some in their games like the Mandalorians there are still plenty others and personally after what has Become of SWG Id much rather have a game that focuses on the "Normal" side of Star Wars rather than all this Jedi, Sith, BS that is always in the spot light.
It's been stated, but I'll throw in my .02 as well. YES I want Jedi to be an Alpha class. BUT I voted for it to be one of a few alpha classes. Not THE alpha class. They weren't leaders in peoples armies for nothing. I also agree w/a later post about them having to specialize, just like most everyone else. Have a great def, decent Offence, or have a great offence and a decent defense, or have a decent set of both with something else tossed in to make YOUR toon unique...not a cookie cutter like SWG has turned into.
There will always be "cookie cutter'ism" to an extent, but that doesn't mean that everyone's toons needs to look and fight exactly the same. Hmmm, ring any bells w/pre-CU? TKM w/Medic, or TKM w/Chef, or TKM w/crafting, or .... The list goes on and on.
I'm a "casual" game, not a hard-core one due to having a real-life outside of gaming, but I don't want a toon that's the same as everyone else. If I want to spent what time I'm allowed online by the wife grinding up to an alpha class, let me. If I want to spend the time grouped and just enjoying myself? Let me. I just don't see why people get upset if someone elses toon can beat yours up. That doesn't call for nerfing someone elses toon. Not all professions are equal, nor are people all equal. Some are better at some things than others.
This is what happens when we stopped letting kids "loose" games. "Oh we don't keep score anymore, we don't want to hurt the kids feelings". It's ok to loose, learn from it and move on. People are taking the mentality of not loosing to online games.
If the Bioware MMO is based on KOTOR, it has to have Jedis for everyone.
Knights (Jedis) of the old republic. There is no question about it.
Over and out.
Camthorn Ironhand
With all due smiley faces, ain't we getting a bit ahead of ourselves here?
Mind you, many people thought the NGE was a rumour..
Why is KOTOR being compared to SWG? Totally different timelines, environments, characters, stories...
KOTOR has Jedi, Sith, Dark Jedi, force users, etc, etc.
There is NO WAY you can make a Bioware MMO and not allow people to play as any of those classes. Stop thinking so SOE/SWG and start thinking KOTOR. Put the game in your cpu and refresh yourself, it's a completely different situation.
What i find funny is the thought everyone has that "Jedi" were alphas too start with. Anyone who had one knew their weakness and built a toon accordingly. Stupid argument Imo and pointless at this point. Jedi have their place in the gaming world. The current form not withstanding. Jedi could be defeated then if you knew what you were doing. Slight advantage yes,unbeatable they were not... 3 years wasted too find that out..Force drained faster than you could ever imagine. Force bar balanced them vs the rest. Too bad every other toon wasnt balanced. Good thing they werent balanced. Anyone could be "good" with just about any profession combo. Just took time and effort to discover them. Another quality i personally loved about SWG. Is was the balance of its unbalance...
If Bioware do end up making a kotor mmo SOE can pretty much kiss SWGs remaining player base goodbye. I think the only people left ther are die hard star wars fans and if they had another option i believe they will take it.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
read my blog.
If Bioware is making a Star Wars MMO, it will be KOTOR.
If it's KOTOR, being a Jedi should be option among many powerful class choices.
Mandalorians were a very good match to the Republic and the Jedi, so Jedi wouldn't be overpowered in comparison.
Also, like I say in my blog (sorry shameless plugging) I think being a Droid would also be really cool and a way to "balance" out the presence of so many Jedi
I dont think Jedi should be class you choose but like a power level that every different types of beta classes can rise to and still have their class abilities kind of like in dragon ball z. Theres should be different types of jedis you can be with its own abilities and still have your original class abilities. Of course becoming a jedi should take a long time through very hard missions and quest.
Star Wars is the absolute worst franchise I can imagine to build an MMO around.
Popular? Certainly popular enough to generate immediate interest. But also IMPOSSIBLE to strike a balance between the established lore and the players' desires. You will, quite simply, never be able to make anyone happy in a Star Wars MMO. I don't care who develops it; it cannot be done.
Bioware would be crazy to try it.
Sometimes I think you Star Wars fans really have no idea how you kill discussion stone dead.