Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Question for POTBS Coders
nightbird305
Member UncommonPosts: 272
This really isn't relevant to the game itself, however I was just wondering what sort of degree did you go for in order to become a game programmer? The reason I ask is simple, I'm 18 years old and I'm currently looking into a possible career as a gaming programmer, however I'm not sure if I should be going for the whole computer scientist deal, or if there are other.. more suitable for gaming options.
Any answer(s) to my question would be greatly appreciated as computer programming is something I'm crazy, almost addicted about ( 
lol ) and I want to make sure that I take the right paths before it's too late.
Oh and FYI, I have asked my counselor about this and she recommened fullsail college to me... although it sounds like one of the biggest scams I've ever heard.
PS: Get the EU preorder details for POTBS sorted asap! I must preorder it 
Comments
Honestly, I'd go the regular Computer Science route, and work on game stuff on the side. I just gave a talk at Case Wester Reserve University (where my dad's a prof) on Game Programming in the Real World. A lot of the "game colleges" are more like trade schools. They teach how to work with specific engines, specific shade techniques, and such. Unfortunately, in our industry a lot of this information is quickly obsolete, and they often skimp on the foundation you need to build on to have a good career.
As projects get bigger and bigger, and teams get larger and larger, some of the things that save us are the software engineering disciplines that get taught in college. Solid Object Oriented design, an "algorithmic mindset" (by which I mean the ability to analyze a problem, take it apart into pieces you can solve with the tools at hand, and then put it all back together again), the ability to write clear and well commented code, etc. I'm not saying that you can't learn these at a game school, but that you'll have a much better chance of learning them and getting a broader based education at a regular CS school.
When we interview at FLS for programmers, we have them write code for us on the whiteboard. We look for how well they work through the problem, if they can find their own mistakes, and how clear the code is. DirectX we can teach them, heck, even C++ if we have to, but if they can't think clearly and write code that works in *some* language they're not getting hired.
Algorithms, Data Structures, Graphics, are all useful stuff. Knowing a few languages is nice, but you can swat up another one as needed. Besides, if you learn that stuff you can get a job programming anything. No point in pidgeon holing yourself from day one.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Rick. that is possibly the smartest thing anyone has ever said, ever... All these people I know majoring in "Gaming" At community colleges thinking that as soon as they graduate Bungie is gonna be knocking on their doors to hire them.
It's like going to school to learn how to make macaroni and cheese and think you'll be hired as a head chef somewhere when you only know 1 facet of the overall picture. I've always said to them Learn your languages learn your basics so that you can work in ANY programming enviroment.
*Bow* to Rick
After looking around at some of the gaming/3d animation colleges I actually came to the same conclusion as you did about how they only really teach you how to use specific software. In fact I heard that most of the students who graduated from the full sail college ( The expensive gaming college I menioned in my first post) end up never getting a job within the gaming industry because no one wants them.This, along with your thoughts, has really turned me to favour the computer science education. Another plus that I've come to admire with a computer science degree is the job oppertunities that will be available to me, so if I one day ( god forbid :P ) I get tired of programming for games I can swich my focus to something else such as software development etc..
I was sort of worried that gaming companies (such as FLS) mainly hired you as a programmer based on the amount of languages you know and how well you know them. In my opinion, I've always been pretty good at thinking up solutions to problems and finding different and sometimes easier ways of doing things, however I'm currently learning JAVA, NETLOGO and C# (Java + Netlogo is taught in school, C# is for personal projects and I'm self teaching myself that one) and I often find that I sometimes may get one of the languages confused with another, or try to do something which the language I'll be coding in doesn't support. Ofcourse this really only happens when I'm working with multiple languages, but just knowing that there are gaming companies who will go out of their way to teach you and get you up to speed with the programming languages, really comforts me.
I have one more question for you and it's in regards to a rumour I've heard. Apparently, learning certain languages (such as visual basic) makes it harder for you to learn more advance languages such as C++, most likely due to their code structure. As a programmer, have you ever had an issue where the simplicity of one language would hamper your "progression" in another language
Thanks again for replying
Hah. I'm 43. When *I* was a lad... Oh wait. Damn. I swore I'd never say that. Suffice to say the choices were different back then. C++ had yet to be invented, Basic wasn't Visual, assembly language was normal and Cobol was still in use, if not in vogue. Most game programming these days is in C++, although we're going to be looking into C# or some other higher level language for at least some of our next project. Many companies use Python or Lua for UI & scripting, others don't. I believe CoH is all in C, not C++, and I'm sure there are other exceptions.
Realistically, all modern programming languages have ifs, loops, and subroutines, so a lot of it is interchangable. If you've learned some object oriented language like C++, a lot of that knowledge is tranferable to others (you've learned to think that way). I suppose if you're so fossilized in C that you can't make the mental shift to C++ and OOP, that could be an issue (that happens, FLS had a dev quit years ago because he refused to program in C++. C was 'good enough'), but for most people it's just a matter of learning to view the problems a little differently.
I *expect* that multi threading will be more important as the number of cores goes up in upcoming machines, and that's a whole different set of skills to learn (which I currently don't have). I need to go look into C# and such as well, if only to keep up with the younger devs we've hired who picked it up on the way.
Which is the way things work in the real world, if you don't keep learning, eventually progress passes you by. There's still call for my assembly debugging skills, but less and less every year.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
I'm a coder at FLS as well. Also, by way of full disclosure, I'm Even Older Than Rick. 52. I second everything he has said -- get a CS education. And in *any* job, especially a technical one, you will need to keep learning.
One aside: I have never had an experience where learning a computer language hampered me from learning another. Computer languages are tools for expressed algorithms. Different languages are better or worse at different facets of that. Some languages offer really revolutionary ways to express algorithms over others, like the difference between object-oriented and straight procedural algorithms. But I would say there is no one *best* way to do this. At least, not that we have found yet. I think the only way you'd get hampered is to decide that some one language or technique is the only, one, bestest, greatest way to express algorithms. Bad idea.
I'm mainly posting to mention a couple of things about getting a job coding games.
Game coding is not the same as it was as 5 years ago. Hardware can do a lot more now. General (meaning *good*) coding skills are getting more important all the time because the hard problems in games are becoming less specific to games. A game company doesn't need to spend as many resources on graphics coding now because you can buy an engine, and because you can code graphics at a higher level than you used to. Same for coding many other media areas. So companies are becoming more interested in good coders, not necessarily good *game* coders.
Game coding has less and less to do with the game design. A game *designer* designs the game experience using a set of tools. A game coder develops the runtime code and (to some extent) the tools the game designer uses. The game designer is limited by what the coders deliver to him/her. But I have very little impact or control of the game experience itself -- somebody else does that. I get to complain and make suggestions about the game, and I get listened to. This separation will continue to widen as the game industry matures.
Also, *lots* of people want jobs in the game industry. High supply compared to demand. Game companies pay less than other places (in general). It's much more competitive to get a job as a game coder than other industries. Accept it. Game companies generally want to see that you care a lot about games because they can be picky. Writing a game is impressive, especially if they've heard of it. (Google RIck Saada -- he has a very old, very famous game to his credit. I know it's very famous because I played it.) But just knowing about game issues in general -- playing them, building them, selling them, etc -- is a good thing. But *not* as important as good coding skills.
Finally, as in any really competitive job situation, there's a certain amount of luck involved in getting the job you want. A lot of patience and persistence. And some "who you know" as well. I got a job here at FLS (my first and only job in the industry) after looking at game job listings for 2-3 years and a few very disappointing interviews at other companies. Didn't know anybody here, but I have good coding skills and a *ton* of experience, and that's what they were looking for.
Good luck!
For reference, Mike gets listened to because he makes smart, on-point suggestions that make the game better. In general, the devs at FLS have a lot of influence over the design because they're all smart and competent, and I trust them.
Former coder myself though I have moved into network and systems engineering since my programming roots. Listen to this advice guys. It'll save you loads of headaches later on.
Thank you Rick.... Honestly never thought I'd see a game dev give such solid advice in today's world where everyone is starting to focus on the engine rather than the languages the engines are written in.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
This thread really makes me sad. Im pushing 30 and for the first time in my life i know what i want to do when i grow up......i wanna be a game developer!
So now reality comes and punch me in the face.....where to begin? Im a simple industrial worker, so when i told them i wanted to do this....they laughed their "#*¤ off.
But then again.....will i have to time to play if i begin to work with games?
It took you 30 years to figure out you're a masochist?
Just throwing it out there, I attend a Private Engineering School in Massachusetts, Worcester Polytechnic Institute. And while we do have the full CS degrees and all that. We also have a degree called Interactive Media and Game Development (IMGD for short). Basically, it is everything in a computer science degree, as far as learing codes and all that. but it also includes basics for games, like creating stories, 3d animation and modeling.
It may be something for you to look into. Its a pretty good degree, I have a few friends going through it now, and some are getting interviews with places like EA and Ubisoft.
Will be interesting to see how people who matriculate with that degree do in the professional world.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Its actually really nice because most people just get a Cs Degree, and double major with the IMGD, because it is only like 6 to 10 more classes so it is possible to do in four years still. that way they are marketable to game companies and other CS based companies.
I will take a closer look at that.
So maybe in 5 years.....im working on some new content for a PotBS expansion LOL
PS. Don't mess with Founder's Hall
Founders is still there. Though they did replace FAKA with a resturaunt and Pub. So thats kind of new this year. lol. and the old brick building next door to Founders has been torn down for a new Res hall
Will be interesting to see how people who matriculate with that degree do in the professional world.
I agree! Would definantly be interesting to take some form of gaming class along with the CS education, I've seen far too many colleges only focusing on one or the other.
Btw thanks again to the PotBS devs for responding to my question, you guys have really changed the way I view programming and what kind of an education I should head towards. I honestly feel a lot smarter programmingwise as I feel like I've learnt something that only the "true" coders know ( such as the moving from language to language and demand for rather your logic thinking rather how many languages you know) .
Also I apologies for taking this long to respond, right after my last reply I had to travel to Denmark for a while to attend a couple conferences about computer science as a whole, was fun especially when they introduced this talking/moving robot hehe.
Anyway thanks again RickSaada, mikebyron and isildur (I wish you luck with your new mmo
), and thanks to the rest of you for all your input. I have to agree that it is rare that you get to talk so openly with actual game developers and get some solid advice from them in the process 
.
my plan is to work my way up into a degree of Software Engineering and then get an advanced diploma in games design (and a few extra certificates on the side).
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I was like you 4 years ago - thought I wanted to become a game programmer and entered college as a CS major. I think thats what 75% of my classmates were thinking, too. But, unless you are really serious about coding and really truly enjoy it, CS is going to be a really onerous major to get through.
I myself decided to change majors after 1 year of CS - I transferred schools and got into a program called 'Digital Design' - Its sort of like graphic design but with a heavy emphasis on UI design, 2d and 3d animation, and other more traditional design elements (like typography and ideation).
If you have an interest in 3d modeling or level design, you might want to consider a major more focused on design than software engineering.
Hi there,
I can't comment on normal colleges with game degrees, but the big three game schools (Digipen, Guild Hall, and Full Sail) are all top-notch. I'm a Full Sail Game Development graduate, and am a programmer at Volition. We have about 5 people at Volition from each of the three. I can't talk about specifics for Digipen and Guild Hall, but I would highly recommend Full Sail to someone who wants to be a game programmer and is highly self-motivated.
At Full Sail, we didn't learn towards one specific technology. We learned both DirectX and OpenGL. We had classes that gave you a good foundation of C++ if you didn't have one before you went in. Admittedly, I had been programming C++ for a few years before going to Full Sail, but some of the people in my class hadn't. We had two project classes, one mid-way through which as 2 months long and very hands-on from the teachers, and our final project, which was 5 months long, which was completely up to us for everything from design to implementation to assets.
Out of the people I still talk to from my graduating class that have attempted to find a game job, 60% are working on games.
My tips for getting in the industry: Meet people. Meet *a lot* of people. Don't burn bridges (like, say, calling someone's school a scam). Work on games and demos. Really, the three main parts of getting a game job are networking, knowledge, and demos.
If you have specific questions, feel free to ask them.
- DJ Hirko
Programmer at Volition, Inc.
My posts and opinions are mine, not Volition's.
Im 17 and I kinda like programming. I used to know Perl. It was just for fun, I learned it at home with the help of a friend. I have studied C# and got MVG (thats the highest grade) , now I study C++. I'm not sure if I'm smart enough to manage a computer science coding program.
I do enjoy level design alot
I've made lots of maps for the HL1 engine and some stuff with the Sandbox from Crytek. Maybe level design is what I should go for?
admittedly I'm not really "good" at mathematics and physics and I think that might impair my ability to learn more programming later on and I'm thinking that I might not actually have to be a genius to be a mapper
Same boat, sadly
For reference, Mike gets listened to because he makes smart, on-point suggestions that make the game better. In general, the devs at FLS have a lot of influence over the design because they're all smart and competent, and I trust them.
GB here!The FLS devs rock!
Its easy to critisize the game but its the devs that have given me faith about Potbs & it's future.
where i live its somewhat limited (government gives crap all support and the industry is only just starting to grow) so from what i gathered to be a games programmer (this is at the basic level not the manager of a team of programmers cus i dont want that) a degree in software engineering (the basic building block of a programming career) and a degree in games programming (or closest equivalent) the 2nd degree specializes ur software engineering degree. if u are looking for a more manageresque (is that a word?) then get an IT degree or some qualifications to help bolster ur other degrees.
dont just go for the games developing/programming degree. it might get u into the industry but you wont have much of an advantage over others...plus if u decide the games industry isnt for you then u got something to fall back on
thats my opinion and plan and u dont need to take my advice
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Wow........
I'm not into all the coding and stuff, far from it actually. But I digress. Here's my point/reaction:
I'm having serious doubts about purchasing the upcoming FLS MMO, but right now I'm probably buying it. Why? Because I'm completely blown away and amazed by the fact that high-ranking FLS people actually take time to help a young man with his career choices!!! My reaction is based on the logic that if they take time to answer a basically irrelevant(irrelevant to their deadline/beta progression/product info etc.) question then they sure as hell will take time to listen to their PAYING customer base.
The FLS reaction in this thread just made me a customer...