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General: MMOWTF: Mature Ratings and "Da Bewbs"
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
In this week's MMOWTF column, Dan Fortier takes on the ESRB's "Mature" rating and suggests that there is very little mature about an M-rated game.
Now that you’ve turned away in disgust or given me your undivided attention I shall commence! It struck me as a beautiful contradiction that the things that most would consider to be for ‘mature’ audiences typically act like Pavlovian bells to the hoards of immature hounds looking for something to drool on. Things like blood, gore and exposed mammary glands are often effective ways of drawing in a crowd prior to sucker punching them and grabbing their lunch money. It’s not so much a bait-and-switch tactic as a cheese on a mousetrap or shiny light on a bug-zapper. This week I am going to play with the hand grenade that is adult content. Frag out!
As long as testosterone and libido have driven the sales of products to the male demographic, there has always been a medium ground that Devs were loath to cross. Games like Red Light District and BMX XXX remind us that we are not complete slaves to instinct and that a poorly made game with nudity is still a poorly made game. The trick is to dish out enough violence and sexual innuendo to keep the animal mind interested yet still provide enough fun and challenge for the rest of our brain. A game needs to deliver more than virtual pron to be a hit, but the forbidden fruit is often enough to get the interest of folks who would have otherwise ignored the game.
Why would kids be interested in a game that is designed to exclude them? You think the answer would be simple, but even factoring in human nature this is a tough nut to crack. For example, any of the above and more can easily be found in excess with a few clicks on the Internet. Why would someone want to spend all the time and effort getting into an MMO that has these things instead of just following the path of least resistance? Sure MMOs are great interactive playgrounds and the only thing better than getting your jollies by yourself is getting them with a ton of people you don’t know! If we follow this rationale then it might seem that Developers are trying to double-dip by grabbing the ‘target’ audience and the ‘wanna-be target’ audience as well.
Read the whole thing here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I agree.
My definition of "mature" content is stuff that children simply won't understand.
It's like the difference between Starship Troopers and Alien.
Starship Troopers - bewbs and gore = not mature
Alien - Nightmare inducing hell = mature
I agree wholeheartedly. Maturity = depth and complexity, not blood and boobs. Slapping a "mature" label on a game does little more than up the sales among kids in their tweens and early teens. Some of the worst, most immature movies ever made are Rated R. Shrek, IMHO, is a funnier movie than Porky's.
Agreed. Developing a game with nudity and violence to get an M rating put on it will not limit the audiance to mature people. This is one fear I have with AoC. Peoples hopes are that there will be a mature playerbase but there will always be the immature adults there for the wrong reasons and the kids who play it just because they shouldn't be.
Currently Playing: Nothing (waitinf for WAR)
Retired: AC2, EVE, DAoC, EQ, WoW
There are some games out there that could be labeled mature, if you broaden your definition of that very word 'mature'. EverQuest II and Final Fantasy XI come to mind when thinking about it. Sure, the players of those games might not match that definition, but at least the games themselves have a rather mature element about them.
Final Fantasy XI has a deep, involving story that lets itself be known over the entirety of your character's existence, if you're willing to suffer through the level grinding and rather slow pace set by few modes of transportation.
EverQuest II is like a more realistic, gritty version of World of Warcraft, and it's a shame that EverQuest II had to compete with WoW, because it was obvious who the victor was going to be. You could tell that it could have been something, if it were any company besides SOE, who spread themselves thin over all of the games they offer, instead of concentrating on one game at a time like Blizzard does.
Of course, like I said, it all depends on how you define 'mature'.
Glad to see more people with this opinion. Maturity IMHO implies thought and strategy, a mental challenge, moreso than blood and breasts.
IMO EVE is probably the most mature game on the market, deep, complex and super fun.
I don't know why people think kids are stupid. A story can be as "deep" and involving as you want and it will still be understood by "the kids", which would be the case you make with Final Fantasy XI. What gets lost to them, somewhat like the columnist says, has to do with implications and signs which aren't beyond their comprehension; they just haven't learned to make an interpretation of them (vampires sound cool to a 12 year old, but does he know all of the stuff a subject such as vampirism could imply?). A coherent and multilayered story doesn't instantly mean mature in the sense the author is using the term, just like it doesn't mean good and deep respectively. What I believe he means, and which I agree with, is that a story that troubles player is nowhere to be found; neither is a story that truly evokes thought or provokes an authentic decision-making process preceded by the taking of a stance. Stories in MMOs are mere background drops, and therefore, the content we play through is only entertainment not subject to any real "mature" action or thinking.
Even games like EQ2 and City of Villains, which create open justifications for the actions of the "side of evil" fall short in any case due to the forceful application of the constraints of such labels, making it easy for the player to just go with the flow they're confined in and not give it much consideration.
Would it have been so much problem to say "boys" rather than "kids" in this article, or do you really believe that there's a significant demographic of babydyke mmo players?
Shava
part of the invisible majority -- 64% of the players of online games being female these days.
Taken from article:
"Games like Age of Conan really don’t have any mature elements, at least not by my definition. Sure, the combat looks fluid and fun, the anatomically pleasing avatars are interesting and they are keeping stealth, (unlike WAR Devs who branded us griefers) but there is little in the game that is really complex. A game doesn’t even have to be hard to be mature in my book."
I disagree with the statement that AoC doesn't have any mature elements. Yes, the OMGBEWBS don't make the game any more mature, but I would say that siege warfare does add a mature complexity to it and here is why:
To launch a successful siege it is going to take large amounts of coordination of people and preparation.
Alliances are going to have to be drawn, siege engines are going to have to be built, and war materials are going to have to be prepared. Any 14 year old kid is not going to be able to pull this off effectively as a mature 30 year old who has had life experience dealing with people.
Coordinating and dealing with people actually takes a lot of maturity. There is the complexity.
It's really hard to agree with anyone 100% here as we all have our own definitive meaning for "Mature". Some simply think it's any adults ideals and the way they present themselves while any children or teenager's thoughts are purely immature. Other's see maturity as having patience and responsibility.
While I can't completely disagree with any one's idea of maturity. I can agree that I can't agree either. Because to me, there is still the 40 year old out there who is more immature then a 12 year old. There will be those 15 year olds who are more mature then half the people in there guild. The spectrum ranges and maturity can not be categorized in the first place to me.
The way the gaming industry labels maturity is by the content within the game and the exposure level at which the game gives the players. So for example if a game has 4 out of the 5 levels with "boobies" then it's going to get slapped with a mature rating. That doesn't mean the game's mature to me. A game could have a PG rating to me but because every level had it's own complexity and some thought was required to beat each level then that's a mature game to me.
In the end honestly MMORPG's can't be categorized to any rating in reality. Even if they censored every word relating to boobies there would always be the player who finds a way around the blocking system. MMO's exposure level is really based off the community not by the game itself. The community will have mature and immature player's no matter the MMO no matter what content is in it. So really what is the point of this article? To debate a moot point?
While this is an MMO site, God of War was great mature game which had both definitions of 'mature'. It had topless women in a mini game, and a mature story about the main character's failings as a family man and his deep guilt for what happened to them (or did you just skip the cutscenes). The gameplay overshadowed the boobs so much that it wasn't really a big deal. It's success now has forced most games with contextual choices to be compared to God of War.
If you take the extreme of adult and mature, you'll find the most boring and tedious aspects of a game. I have a job and a mortgage, why would I want to deal with those things in an MMO. Star Wars Galaxies, for whatever you think of the game, had upkeep of buildings and jobs that are what working adults want to escape from.
So give me a shirtless warrior who rips of his enemies heads and ogles women. Just as long as it's done well.
Give a man fire and he''s warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he''s warm the rest of his life.
I am 40 years old and I would like to see a few games that are not limited and PC and sanitized though im not looking for online porn or a blood bath I would like it if a game felt more realistic and organic.
I allways hated games where the guy is nearly dead and there is no percieveable damage to them
and I definatly dont mind seeing female breasts though i do tend to prefer it in context I guess you could say I would like to see "R" rated games
and both ESRB and the theater rating system need to be much more specific about their determinations
like in underworld2 with kate bekensale it says theirs nudity but its just some bed pet (not kate as one would hope) or the nudity could be guy nudity or even gay sex nudity and that content should be disclosed in their ratings for people better to judge the product.
maby game maker should also print on their lable the AGE of the content the game is directed at.
wow = 8 - 15?
eq2 12-18?
conan 16-22?
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
I really wish we, as gamers, would hold games to the same criteria most people do to movies.
In a movie, if there is violence or nudity, everyone doesn't assume it was part of the film simply to appeal to our base urges. Of course, sometimes it is, but often it's not. It's all about how the it's done and why it's there; as part of the story or simply for it's own sake. As such, showing nudity, sex or violence can and done have artistic merit.
This should hold true for games as well, but unfortunately doesn't. Well, violence gets a pass, but as soon as there's a game with any nudity or sex the immediate reaction of many is that its presence is only to rope in horny guys with more libido than brains. Again, just as with movies this is sometimes the case, but the difference is that many judge the nudity in a game before they ever see it, which is happens far less with movies.
The part this strange prejudgment on nudity or sex in games that truly bothers me is that it often comes from fellow gamers. I expect it from wack-job "social activists" like ol' Jack Thompson who has never touched a video game of any kind. But I see this attitude of equating any nudity or sexual themes in games to being only masturbatory material in the opinions of gamers as much the self-proclaimed enemies of games.
In short, we can't hope that the general pubic will perceive and validate games as a true medium for expression until we gamers hold and defend that same position.
how long do you think it will be, before there will be vertual sex clubs, nude dancing and vertual prostatution and sexual encounters?
Id love to see for instance some celebrity vertual avatar talk dirty to me and give me a lap dance
if they can avatar 7 of 9 they can surely program her to say or do most anything.
in beyowolf angelena jolee is allready nearly an avatar allready.
but this is not something that should be in an mmo just something that I think is coming
think of the predacessor to a holodeck.
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
100% signed.
Resident evil = mature, AoC = not mature.
Dont tell me "but oooooo the games cant be compared".
Resident evil = hard puzzles, kiddies cant solve.
AoC = boobies, kiddies can love.
At what point does it become overly cynical to assume that the things that make the game mature are being used as bait, and not an actual part of what makes the game work? Look at the actions of the developers for this, not the hype of the fans or nay sayers. How could something like the Hot Coffee mod cause a controversy but the horrific imagery of games like Silent Hill or Jericho not even raise an eyebrow? Mob mentality! It's a good thing that artist's aren't always in the "right" mind. If the moraly outraged and endlessly contentious audience had anything to say in the creative process besides what they say with their wallet, than we would all be playing hello kitty adventure island. Because no one in their right mind wants to piss off a mob.
Gormandy you can't write off a game just because it has boobs in it. Who says a game can't have complexity just because theres a few pairs of breasts? All this talk of what's immature and what's mature is kindof "immature" in itself. In general just the mindset of people thinking they're somehow superior or more mature than someone else is pretty primal. To me, someone who is really mature isn't gonna concern themselves with being better than someone else by thinking they are mature and will accept things for what they are.
Mature and immature are just labels created by society and are used by the rating organizations for video games to try and decide what people of certain ages are allowed to be subjected to which and not the mental capacity someone needs to understand something complex.
I can see how people could get confused with the word mature though. Maybe they should find a different word for the rating becase being mentally mature can't always be associated with someones age.
The video game rating systems are just a form of control.
Who cares if a game has been rated mature by people you don't even know and who are these people to set standards for you.
Play the games that you think you will like.
See, i agree that nudity requires a mature rating and i think that AoC are well within their rights to have boobies and prostitutes if they can justify it.
However, people are idiots if they believe that the mature rating is going to up the level of maturity displayed by other players.
Also, i resent the fact that it was used as a tool to boost the game. Them needing to reveal it like little boys who just saw the girl next door topless shows the impact it has on maturity levels...
It is a very simple button mashing game and the boobies fail to add any depth, maybe even subtract from it.
While I don't disagree that seeking out the M rating may be a ploy, it may also be because the content of the game IS mature. Taking AoC for example, how can we say the game content is not mature? Nobody has played all the content. Who's to say that the city building, and siege warfare isn't going to be complex and "mature" in AoC, for example? Or that the ship combat is going to be complex enough in Pirates of the Burning Seas that it's geared towards a more mature crowd that can grasp the complexities of the system?
I really don't think that the maturity of the games is in question, or the story they portray. It is the maturity of the gamers that makes the environment. I doubt we'll ever get entirely away from the crowd that's in it just for de bewbs, but if a game is mature enough, that crowd will wind up being the minority, rather than the majority.
my problem with the whole rating system in general is that there are 1238472093847 games out there where you blow peoples heads off .(including cops, nuns) ... but i have yet to see a game put an actuall boob on the screen. ive seen plenty of bouncing and jiggling but ive never seen a nipple in a game.. Im sure some game has done it but the point is.. What kind of backward society are we that all the killing and gore is more socially acceptable than a partially naked body? Why does pron have its own closed off section in the video store yet any child can walk past the horror flick on the shelf with a picture of some dude wearing a mask throwing around a human head
.. In the immortal words of Rage against the Machine WAKE UP!
Mature content can be pigeonholed into a number of different categories including but not limited to sex, horror, violence, deep & complicated story structure etc. note that I have seperated horror and violence as something does not need to be violent to be horrific ( just watch an episode of most haunted to see what a creaky floorboard can do to an overactive imagination). The fact at the moment is that out of these sex & violence are the easiest ones to implement into a game and also the two that sell. Sex sells and for anyone that doesn't think this is the case then there is a huge adult industry out there that must have been severely misinformed.
Like most of the posters in this thread I would love to see an MMO that had deep and developing storylines, quests (for want of a better word) that immersed the player into the seething darkness that lies just below the surface and had a tension rating somewhere between scream and heart attack, a game that grabs you by the nuts and refuses to let go until your character emerges at the far end ready for two weeks complete bedrest and a course of valium before the next guy with a story to tell comes along. The sad fact is that this isn't possible with todays level of technology. It's on the way, twenty or so more years maybe until the advent of quantum computers but until then we are stuck with pixelated asses and a market firmly aimed at the young teen bracket that instead of a smoking ashtray and copy of war & peace on his computer desk has a box of tissues alongside that unopened pack of condoms he bought to impress his mates, c'est la vie.
100% signed.
Resident evil = mature, AoC = not mature.
Dont tell me "but oooooo the games cant be compared".
Resident evil = hard puzzles, kiddies cant solve.
AoC = boobies, kiddies can love.
Although I'm not intending here to flame you but my brother played Resident Evil 2 non-stop and he would have not beaten the game without my help in the puzzles part. I pretty much solved every puzzle the game threw at him. At the time he played it I was 12. (surprisingly the hardest puzzle i had solving was the easiest one, where you go in the office and watch the video and figure out what's the password via computer(Resident Evil 2))Just throwing this out there.
100% signed.
Resident evil = mature, AoC = not mature.
Dont tell me "but oooooo the games cant be compared".
Resident evil = hard puzzles, kiddies cant solve.
AoC = boobies, kiddies can love.
Although I'm not intending here to flame you but my brother played Resident Evil 2 non-stop and he would have not beaten the game without my help in the puzzles part. I pretty much solved every puzzle the game threw at him. At the time he played it I was 12. (surprisingly the hardest puzzle i had solving was the easiest one, where you go in the office and watch the video and figure out what's the password via computer(Resident Evil 2))Just throwing this out there.
I agree with you too, let me clarify what I meant by "children simply won't understand."
I too have met kids who can figure out complex puzzles and game systems much faster then adults, it's NOT that...
I'm talking about watching an episode of the Simpsons (old Simpsons) or Family Guy where they make obscure political and historical references. Children or younger teens will laugh because it's a funny image or d1ck and f*rt joke, but adults will laugh because they get the subtle political / historical humor in the situation.
Or even Southpark. Kids/young teens (even some older teens) will laugh because of the profanity, insanity, and downright crude nature of the jokes, but an adult will laugh becuase they understand the complex history/social/economical/political implications of the episode in question.
Get what I mean?
Lol Yeah now I understand better. It was only just recently that I began seeing this. I watching Robin Willams Live on Broadway when it first came out and laughed alot. I watched it less then a month ago and thought it was even funnier because alot of the jokes made alot more sense(The French).
Well, I, for one, appreciate the current rating system. It's flawed, it's not consistent (how could it be?), but it is nevertheless helpful.
Simply put, I am not interested in playing "M"-rated games, however imprecise that rating might be--or in having my kids play them.
I do not want to have to guess at a game's content before I buy it. An "M", "T", or "G" rating at least gives me *some* idea of what a game is going to be like and what kinds of themes and situations it will include. Chances are, whatever garnered that "M" rating means that particular game has something in it I can live without.
That said, it would be helpful if one could access the specifics for why a game was rated a particular way.
As for the original article, I'm sorry but it just seemed like a nonsensical ramble to me.
The ratings exist. They are helpful to many. Deal with it.