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Requiem for a mmo
DaBearman
Member Posts: 52
The following wall of text is written from my perspective, and from the opinions I've come to have at this point after two years of following the development of Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. As much as I've always been against doom and gloom posts about this game, I'm afraid I can't keep silent anymore. I know this won't bring me many friends, and may lose me a few, but at least I'll know I've put my thoughts and feelings out there. Whether you bother to read it or not is out of my control, nor does it effect me if you don't. Those of you already itching to insult and berate please know that it'll do no good and you'll not draw me into responding to such. Go ahead and take your shots if you feel the need though.
I don't need anyone's approval, or for anyone to agree with me. For anyone that does though, and wants to let me know, may I advise you do it via PM. If you do agree with some of what I have to say, or most of it, if you make that public be warned you're in effect painting a bullseye on yourself. Not just from other fans waiting for the game either, if you get my drift. Believe me, I know of what I speak.
I'm not delusional though, and I know that at this point in time I'm essentially one voice in the wilderness (hehe that's more true than you know actually), so I also know that a very large number of people here will not agree with much, if any, of what I have to say. I respect your right to your opinion as I hope you respect my right to mine.
To those of you that read it, I thank you for taking the time.
There was once going to be a mmo
There was once going to be a mmo where the genre's two solitudes, PvPers and PvEers, played together on the same servers, for pretty much the same goals, and did so without resentment and bickering. A game that arguably for the first time would offer real meaning to whatever anyone was doing. A game where no matter what preference one declared, or whether one embraced both, they weren't going to be made to feel like second class participants. A game that, because of it's unique content when catering to either preference, had the potential to break down some of the hard barriers in people's minds. A game that would encourage the opposites to "peek over the fence" so to speak. Peek over and likely see that it wasn't so bad on the other side when the other side was done right, have people maybe enjoy a facet of the game they never planned on trying, but still provide for keeping things civil. A game that might have actually given that silent majority, those that just want to relax and play their game without all the other BS, what they're looking for. A game that once assured people that they could level up via PvE and not ever have to choose to PvP, and in so doing that led to the natural assumption that people wouldn't have to deal with meaningless PvP in their faces everywhere, and the annoying minutia that inevitably goes along with that kind of meaningless PvP. A mmorpg that looked to have the potential to draw from a more diverse subscription base than possibly any that had come before, with one exception of course. A game that looked to be able to give PvPers focus and purpose beyond just the epeen, and take PvEers away from the meaningless grinding and dungeon running other games are offering, and give them unique PvE content that has bearing beyond shallow and limited personal gain. Of course the game would probably never attract the hard core PvE raiding people, but that's in truth only a small fraction of people that enjoy mmorpgs but don't ever, or often, or equally (in terms of preference), participate in PvP. It of course might not of been for the hardcore PvPers either, but again that's just a small segment.
Now the chance of that mmo appears to be gone. Why? Because of selfishness. Sometimes selfishness can be healthy, but in this case it's selfishness of the most unhealthy kind. It's the type of selfishness that has no foresight, no thought about the bigger picture, and has the very real potential to do the game great harm in the end. The selfishness some have shown is so pronounced that many people stopped caring about the game's success, and therefore it's long term viability. Instead the need to force others to conform to one playing style took over and led some people to clamor and wail enough that the game looks to be changed forever. The people making the game have seemingly mistakingly moved toward placating these selfish people so that they quit their teeth gnashing noises, or at least tone it down. This selfishness looks to have essentially caused the company to lose confidence in it's original vision, and they look to be caving to a very vocal minority. Yes admittedly probably a majority of the people currently following a game months (for some of us a couple of years) before the game is released, but unquestionably the minority of the people that could have possibly become customers down the road. Instead of admitting that they may have made some mistakes in their initial marketing campaign, and thus have at this point not gotten the wide diversity of fans and testers needed to give an accurate representation of the desires and opinions of the potential market for the game, they appear to be taking very obviously skewed opinions and feedback and running with it.
They also appear to have listened to people that have taken a valid issues concerning immersion in one specific facet of the game for a relatively small subsection of mmorpg customers, the people that role play, and disingenuously ran with it in a campaign to change the entire game to be more in line with their preference. Instead of focusing the changes on the RP servers, the company seems to be moving to whitewash everyone with them.
A great number of people will now take a look at the game, see that PvP will be encroaching on the areas they would be PvEing in, and they'll simply look elsewhere . It'll not matter to them what features are in place to stop griefing and annoying behavior. They'll most likely not even get to reading the part that descibes those features. They'll just go from past negative experiences and decide it's not worth the money and time to take the chance that this game will be different. Before there was clear separation, now it looks like it's going to resemble every other game that tries to mash it all together.
There was once going to be a mmo that had PvP that was focused on RvR. The same basic realm vs realm concept born and nurtured in DAoC, but grown up and evolved to encompass all aspects of the game. Where all players chose their side and battled for the good of their realm. Where to succeed everyone had to work together to a certain degree, and in so doing the childishness and pettiness so often seen in many other mmorpgs would find less places to take hold. A game that, through it's layout, focused the realm vs realm PvP in specific areas to help players maintain a sense of cohesiveness. A game where, because of it's focus and it's layout, when one described the PvP they would probably have used words like interesting, deep, rich, meaningful, complex, rewarding.
Now the chance of that mmo appears to be gone. Why? Because of selfishness. Selfishness so pronounced that the true realm vs realm aspect of the game is largely forgotten because all that matters to some is being able to PvP everywhere. Because the thought that players on the same server may be just doing their thing and not be attackable is simply unacceptable to some. The need for some to have everyone around them conform to their preference, and to be able to impose their presence on those people, now has the game in very real danger of losing it's RvR focus to such a degree that it becomes a memory. No longer will the PvP be focused in specific areas and on RvR, but spread all over, and only done for the kicks of individuals and guilds. This is how it will be. Anyone that plays these mmorpgs these days has to know that down deep inside. People in these games rarely work together beyond their little social circles unless they're motivated to, and the motivation of "if you want to PvP you go the areas designated for it and fight for your realm" will now be removed. It's in effect going to cater to the very kinds of people that have given PvP a bad name in the eyes of most people that play mmorpgs as their main genre choice. Now there's a very good chance some of the words to describe PvP in WAR will be very different. Words like dull, shallow, simple, meaningless, full of B-Net kiddies, griefer's paradise, annoying, disruptive, distracting.
There was once going to be a mmo that, except for RP servers, eliminated the need for servers with different rule sets. There was going to be plenty of room for everyone to do their thing, whether it be PvP or PvE, and be able to do it playing the same game everyone else was. Players wouldn't find themselves making the wrong choices and investing copious amounts of time in a character only to find they were playing on the wrong type of server. Guilds wouldn't have to restrict their memberships based on player preference if they didn't want to. The company didn't have to drain capital and development resources from the main game to create, maintain, and promote other server types. Everyone would have benefited because the company would be left with only the one rule set to concentrate on , and changes and expansions would have been much easier to do. The game's overall community wouldn't be fractured up, and most everyone could have shared their thoughts and ideas from the same perspective, and in so doing made it easier for the company to delineate those thoughts and ideas, and then better cater to the needs and desires of everyone. People that have been following the game for a long time and gotten to know each other over a long period of time will now be split up and going their separate ways. A lesser concern yes, and no everyone didn't like each other, but heck, that would have added to the fun for many of us I think.
Now the chance for that mmo appears to be gone. At least it looks to be heading down that road anyway. Why? Because of selfishness. Because some people can't compromise a little and give up a bit of turf. Never mind that the commitment was made to be able to level up exclusively via PvP or PvE, and all evidence points to there already being plenty of space to do it in. Never mind that PvEers always knew they'd have a great amount of the game closed to them and accepted that, and that they're not being given the same consideration by the company. Never mind that they have no idea whether or not they could have been entirely satisfied the way the game was going to be originally on all servers, since no one in beta has seen the anything close to the final product. Yet already they clamor for different rule set servers, and very likely will get it due to the company not seeming to have confidence in their original plan anymore.
There was once going to be a mmo, now that mmo looks like it's going away.
There's going to be much different one in it's place. Those of you sitting out there all smug about getting your way through your use of squeaky wheel campaigning, deception, and attempts to silence others with your browbeating behavior? Well.... I imagine you're pretty happy with yourselves now. I hope though that when the game is released, and the sales and subscription numbers are talked about in the gaming press as being disappointing for a game of this scope and the resources put behind it, and wholesale changes start being made in an effort to right the ship, that some of you have at least a twinge of guilt. I don't imagine many of you will though, and you'll just invent some other reason to blame the situation on (like we've all seen happen with every other game that catered too much to PvP at the expense of other playing preferences and failed ), and then merrily move on to the next game and start it all over again. I enjoy PvP as much as most I'd say, but I believe that for the game to be a true success it must appeal to a wider range of players than just PvPers, and this could have been done without having to include the same kind of PvE content as other games have, nor diminishing the PvP content that was always planned for the game.
It's funny, even with all I see going wrong, there's still a big part of me that hopes I'm mistaken about how I think the game will now be received, and that the game is a real big hit. The pragmatic and objective parts keep telling me no though.
Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.
Martin Luther King, Jr
Comments
First off, thanks for taking the time to voice your opinion in an articulate way instead of resorting to an "omg this sux" type of post.
Second, I'm going to assume your problem is with the ability to manually flag yourself for PvP in non-designated areas. I personally don't see how it's selfish or catering to much towards the needs of PvP minded players to include this option. When I heard the feature was going to be introduced I was a little surprised; I had assumed it would be there and never gave it any thought.
I spent all my WoW days on PvE servers so this function wil be familiar to me . I don't see how this is going to affect immersion or any other aspect of the game. After all the game is commonly called WAR, and seeing members of different factions casually questing and tossing /waves at each other seems a bit strange. The beauty of the concept is, if your not in the mood or perhaps new to mmo's and don't wish to involve yourself in PvP just yet, you don't have to, it's entirely consensual. Don't do damage or heal someone flagged PvP and you can go about your merry way eternally and no one can touch you.
I guess my opinion on the matter is it will only add more to the feeling that "war is everywhere". I don't personally understand any uproar, I think it's become an industry standard ( although other things have as well that are not to my liking). If this was not the point at all i apologize for my misinterpretation, but at least everyone knows my opinion on manual PvP flagging.
What is this?! Are you trying to say there's some secret assasination police out there that will kill any of us who speak badly of WAR? LOL WTF are you talking about. Seems like a drama queen to me. Weird stuff like this make me disregard your rather well thought out comments.
I can hardly believe he would bother posting this on more than 1 forum. It isn't even a constructive post. You are making assumptions on things that Mythic hasn't even released details on yet. Move along everybody.
I have no problem with people posting negative feedback if it's warranted. No game is going to be exactly what every gamer wants. The only problem I do have with this post is the fact that the OP is making a heap of assumptions about a game which has quite a few months of developement left. Once open beta hits you can pretty much guarantee that the game won't be changed much for release besides the usual couple last minute bug fixes. Until then be it good or bad most posts are crap no matter how well written or thought out.
Stop whining and login so I can kill you!
If the game ain't released then stuff would change.
I honestly don't see what the big deal is. You couldn't flag at all before and now you can. You should be happy. If a PvEer wants to flag they can and if they don't want to get ganked/pvp they don't have to flag. PvPers will all be duking it out in the abundant RvR zones.
If you want a look at just how much and how quickly things change in mmo's just look at WARs career system. It had a big tree of skills and stat packages. Now there are no stats and only abilities. You don't have to go through the tree to pick up anything either.
BTW the start of your post had something about PvP and PvE players living in harmony. Have you been tracking the same game I have? It was PvP with minute PvE. Now it is still PvP focused but they seem to really be bulking up on PvE and lore.
Dear Da"Care"Bearman,
A beautifully written post. It brought tears to my eyes.
But the simple fact is they are testing PvP-flag for PvE areas. This will be consensual. My best guess is that it will indeed be included at retail release if the majority of beta testers -- who are probably RvR fans -- give positive feedback.
However, I have good news for you.
YOU TOO can change! YOU TOO can become a rabbit rabid PvP player!
And here is my proof:
In this video you will see two "symbolic" MMORPG players.
~ One, whom I shall call "Sneaky Snake," is a gank-crazed PvP griefer.
~ The other, whom I shall call "Fluffy Bunny," is a role-playing PvE player.
Then, one sinister day, "Fluffy Bunny" has had ENOUGH! So, have faith, YOU TOO can savor the evil deliciousness of PvP, if only....
Well, see for yourself:
www.youtube.com/watch
~ Ancient Membership ~
This post was the first I had heard of such an idea going into WAR causing me to search for this info myself, after reading the article I can see where the Op iss coming from but IMO it really does seem like a good idea if your in the RvR tier section of a zone pvp is up but if your in your factions side of the zone only PvP if you want ( this is how it's going to be. yes?)then in low lv tiers you will not have some maxed toon coming to one shot you for kicks.
But from that article I also got a dark feeling when reading the item stuff, those terms they used sent a small shiver through me BOP and BOE- I hope mythic stays true to their OWN dream and does not try and become the next WoW and start to truly fashion the game towards it. If we only RvR for gear that will be replaced every three months then I guess me and DAoC will have another few years together.
I couldn't get past the first two paragraphs of explanation on why I'm explaining why I don't care what people think yet feel the need to explain why it doesn't matter to the people who it doesn't matter to.
Anyone have the cliff notes on that post?
D.
It's going to be fine.
All that is being tested is allowing players in a PvE zone to voluntarily turn on the PvP-flag so that they can fight in PvE zones (if they want).
No one in a PvE zone will be forced to PvP -- although you can join in the PvP in the PvE zone voluntarily, if you choose.
The OP is making a mountain out of a molehill. No one will be forced to PvP in a PvE zone. At most, you will have to witness some PvP happening in the PvE zone. If you don't want to join -- don't.
As for max level characters entering lower tier PvP zones, they will become CHICKENS!
Literally.
Players who are higher than the PvP tier allows will morph into chickens who can peck you for 1 point of damage! It should actually rather amusing for the lower players to kick chicken butt just for fun.
Yes, probably there will be raids by a high-level "chickens" into lower tier areas which should give everybody a good laugh as the lower players chase the chickens around and turn them into KFC!
~~~
Everyone should just relax on this topic.
WAR is an RvR-based game and Mythic just wants to expand RvR opportunities.
I think this is a good idea as it is my opinion that where DAoC went wrong was to greatly expand PvE areas without adding to the meat-and-potatoes RvR content.
~ Ancient Membership ~
For the benefit of those poor souls who were not able to get though this post without catching some zzzz's 2 paragraphs into it, let me give you a quick sum up:
Hello fellow gamers! I am here to say bad things about WAR, and since I know how much you all love it, I am fully aware of the consequences of my actions - you all going to hate my guts! Well, guess what! I DON'T CARE!!! I made up my mind about saying bad things about WAR and, as a preemptive strike, I am telling you all right now - SCREW YOU ALL!
OK then! Now that we got this little disclaimer out of the say, here is the bad thing I wanted to say about WAR: PVE in WAR S-U-C-K-S !!! Dudes that are making this game, are making more PVP-ish that I want it to be, and I want it to be more PVE-ish. And it SUCKS!!! And I think it's SELFISH!!!! Very, very SELFISH!!! SELFISH! SELFISH! SELFISH! SELFISH! SELFISH! Very, very, very, SELFISH. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. And they should not be S E L F I S H. But they are S E L F I S H. And it's sucks! Why? I don't know. But they are! They are very, very, very S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. Yes. they are! S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H.
Did I mention they are S E L F I S H ???
Just in case you missed my point, the are S E L F I S H.
And that's all I gotta say about that.
Hello fellow gamers! I am here to say bad things about WAR, and since I know how much you all love it, I am fully aware of the consequences of my actions - you all going to hate my guts! Well, guess what! I DON'T CARE!!! I made up my mind about saying bad things about WAR and, as a preemptive strike, I am telling you all right now - SCREW YOU ALL!
OK then! Now that we got this little disclaimer out of the say, here is the bad thing I wanted to say about WAR: PVE in WAR S-U-C-K-S !!! Dudes that are making this game, are making more PVP-ish that I want it to be, and I want it to be more PVE-ish. And it SUCKS!!! And I think it's SELFISH!!!! Very, very SELFISH!!! SELFISH! SELFISH! SELFISH! SELFISH! SELFISH! Very, very, very, SELFISH. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. And they should not be S E L F I S H. But they are S E L F I S H. And it's sucks! Why? I don't know. But they are! They are very, very, very S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. Yes. they are! S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H. S E L F I S H.
Did I mention they are S E L F I S H ???
Just in case you missed my point, the are S E L F I S H.
And that's all I gotta say about that.
Ah, cool, thanks for clearing that up. Now I can get on with my day.
D.
Actually, I'm kind of happy that they're doing more with PvP in WAR. I really am. I hate PvP for the most part, and have rarely seen it done in a way that would draw me in. (I got to DAoC too late, I'm afraid. It's heyday coincided with pre-CU SWG, and that's where I spent all my time.) So what I'm really (selfishly) hoping is for the developers of WAR to make it the most hardcore, open looting, corpse running, PvP anywhere game ever seen since the opening month of UO. I want it to have so much PvP that you can't move 3 yards out of town without having to fight off a horde of other players. I want WAR to be the hardest core PvP game ever created.
Then MAYBE the minority of players who scream extremely loudly in EVERY game ever created about the lack of PvP ("I don't care if we ARE all fighting against Mordor, I wanna kill that hobbit next to me!") will finally have a game they can all go to and PvP to their hearts' content. Why they wouldn't want to do that in an FPS has always been beyond me. Guess it has to do with uber stats, uber gear, and looting noobs. Dunno. But I hope that, for the good of the industry as a whole, the WAR guys will suck it up and make this game the PvPers' Paradise.
Then maybe, just maybe, they'll leave the rest of the games alone so the majority of us can get on with looking for an immersive, enjoyable experience.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
To the op, I think "Mythic" is trying to get a certain number of steady accounts into the game somewhere in the 500k numbers as I was told this is what the developers look for during opening day/months whatever it is.
I think they know they will drive away certain mmoers by putting in mostly pvp content (even the TT is about fighting other players) I am hoping myself, that the game will be a good mix of both with a RvR/PvP focus (to save us on 1 billion balancing patches later).
They know what they are doing and they know where they wanna go with the game even if it means losing 500k in PvErs who don't like PvP aspects of a game in PvE. On a side note, I think that the game is looking at both sides of the fence though as I have seen a influx of "role playing and traditional raid guilds" on different Warhammer sites actually talking with devs about the game so something in that direction is going on.
I think WAR will have plenty of pve content to go along with the pvp. DAOC did a good job with this in its day, and I don't see any reason why WAR won't. It won't be hardcore loot your friends after you backstab them pvp, which I'm glad for, honestly, but will be a good mix of both. A little something for everyone, and not making the mistakes of most mmo's by adding in pvp as an afterthought.
And for those who say pvp is the vast minority,etc and so on...explain why most games add in pvp at some point after release (and usually do it badly.)
D.
I'm not talking about PvP with a purpose. I think that's an excellent idea, and critical to any MMO's success. I think many developers miss that point when they design their games and, hence, the PvP gets kludged in as an afterthought. DAoC's RvR, EVE's politics and PvP implementation, AoC's ideas, even the IDEA that pre-CU SWG had (i.e., NOT the implementation of the idea). I'm talking about the loud minority who wants the PvP to be anytime, anyplace, against anybody, with full looting rights; that is, the griefers and gankers who merely like to disrupt. The guys who would shy away from a fair fight in favor of camping a moongate to kill a noob and loot him of everything in his pack, destroying most of it after doing so. The people who want absolutely no limitations on PvP. I believe those people are a very vocal minority, and they're the ones to whom I'm referring.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
I have an idea, a bold idea. It's crazy I know, but I think it might just work. Let the gd game come out before you write a eulogy for it! Play it, let the community get up and running before assuming that the game will be fully of jerks and that the game play will suck. Furthermore I have to say that if every poster on this site that claimed to be a beta tester for a game actually was a beta tester for a game then it wouldn't really be beta testing it'd be more like the launch of the game. Even if all of you uber beta testers out there are real, remember it's only beta the goal is to fix things. All I'm saying is give mmo's a chance. I don't know Warhammer might be totally lame, but the only way I'll figure out if it is as good as it looks or not is to play it. I fear that hype alone has killed more than a few of the mmos that have come out in the past couple years. I also contend that based on forum strings such as this that the fault for many mmos not being as good as they were supposed to is as much the fault of the player as the developer.
For the benefit of those poor souls who were not able to get though this sum-up without catching some zzzz's 2 paragraphs into it, let me give you a quick sum up of the sum up:
I dont care, screw you all, WAR sucks
For the benefit of those poor souls who were not able to get though this sum-up of the sum-up without catching some zzzz's 2 paragraphs into it, let me give you a quick sum up of the sum up of the sum up:
War sucks
yet another USELESS rant about a game that isnt even out yet...pitiful.....get a hobby
What if that's his hobby?
I hope this post is still buried in the archives a month after WAR's release.
It should provide amusing entertainment to ressurect it and see the accuracy of these predictions.