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So, what's the point of MMO's?
skizi
Member Posts: 120
Honestly now, what's the point? I read a lot of forums every week, and they're all full of people whining and crying about the game they play. Either the end game sucks or the leveling is too long/short.
People say that WoW's end game raiding is pointless. Well, what else are you suppose to do when you reach the level cap in an MMO?
I just can't understand what the majority of MMO players want as their end game. What else is there to do once you reach the level cap, besides raid or PvP? What do you want the next generation game to have?
In WoW or EQ2 most of the end game is comprised of raiding, yet a lot of people call it pointless. It's a never ending cycle of progression and gearing up. You down a ton of bosses in one instance and then progress to the next instance that is more challenging. You progress with your guild and at the end of the night collect loot that will help you...
So how is PvE end game suppose to be, other than raid progression? How do we make our characters better without gearing them up? What else are players to do once they reach the level cap?
This is what I consider an accurate definition of an MMO:
(Start at level 1)
(Leveling stage)
(End game)
(Expansion comes out and increases level cap)
(leveling stage)
(End game)
Throw some PvP in the mix and you have yourself an MMO game.
So what else do players want?
_____________________________
SWG- (retired) 2 year vet.
WoW- (retired) 3 year vet.
EQ2- (retired) 1.5 year vet
Waiting for:
AoC // WAR // Darkfall
Comments
POINT OF MMOs
Gamer's Perspective:
Fun, Entertainment, Community.
Developer's Perspective:
Money. Get them to grind and raid for hours to get armor to raid and grind more. Raid guilds are not an effective way to build community, but developers insist on it.
Grinding and raiding is a cheap and inexpensive way to keep YOU PAYING while thinking you are playing. The concept is that someone is naive enough to think they are making "progress." It is really a job in a virtual reality world. Developers have to get 1) creative and 2) innovative to make games (a) fun, (b) immersive, (c) accessible and (d) customizable.
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Try Eve
You played Wow too long.
I am also SWG vet (gorath/starsider)Left because of the horrid NGE.
Eve rocks when you get out of the noob corp and into a corp/alliance.
As for SWG emu, I am not putting the time into an outdated game on private owned servers. Never know when they just decide to kill it. Eve has longevity. It's been around for years. Vastly upgraded. Not going anywhere anytime soon.
KOTOR online, now that would draw me in quick. I just hope Bioware don't fall for this crap big buisness MMO model. Please no cookie cutter midless crap.
In any case EVE is in another league then all other mmo.
Not a safe, kiddie powerlevel grindfest.
If your a kid with no patience EVE is NOT for you.
As for the general point of what a MMO is?
Entertainment.
SHOHADAKU
Warrants an immediate reply.
I agree. We have WoW. We can get cultural armor and grind for hours on end now. We can raid and zerg on end already. S T O P making zerg-raid and grind for armor games.
Get creative. Get innovative. Ensure all characters at least appear differently. Implement in-depth character customization features. Allow a player to "design" one's own mount, armor, house, piano, and so forth. Group activities should be accessible. Heck, allow players to "design" their own class.
[A great game for developers to get ideas from, in my view, is SWGalaxies. High level of immersion. Excellent world feel. Customization.]
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I totally agree with the OP. I ask those same questions when I read/hear people's complaints about end-game...especially in WoW.
Although, I think I was a bit spoiled when it came to end-game. I would seek out those raiding guilds/communities that were relaxed and didn't take themselves too seriously. Their idea was to keep having fun and take our time. That dungeon will still be there in a week. I feel that a lot of the complaints are coming from those people who think MMO's are a race and not something to savor.
Currently Playing: Nothing...I'm developing.
Looking Forward To:
SWG was the one game that allowed players to basically build their character. Though with WoW 's new system, developers will be copying them a lot more. Not because they like the system, but because WoW has 7 million subs.
I hope to one day see a game that's inovative, but I highly doubt it will happen...until then I'll continue to raid and enjoy progression.
_____________________________
SWG- (retired) 2 year vet.
WoW- (retired) 3 year vet.
EQ2- (retired) 1.5 year vet
Waiting for:
AoC // WAR // Darkfall
I'm one of those guys that doesn't "power level." I actually enjoy the journey. I play City of Heroes mostly these days. I like meeting new people, and hanging with some good friends I've connected with through my on-line adventures. I like the stories that go along with CoH; it's like I'm playing a comic book. I'm a comic fan (DareDevil is my fav atm), so that suits my preferences.
Speaking of end-game though, CoH has done a bunch of cool things to get rid of the level-cap dead end. First of all, they have always put out free content a few times a year called issues, again like a comic. Issues 7 and 10 especially added content for players levels 40-50, and then levels 35-50 (50 is the cap). The last issue added a new zone to the game with high level mission content, and the missions have a lot of variety--something players had been asking for. They also let high level heroes and villains team up against an alien invasion. That was a real twist. Usually when I see a Master Mind villain, I reach for the kill switch lol; teaming with the villain archtypes really changes the team dynamics too in a fun way. They also added in the multi-team hero/villain task of blowing up the alien mother ship. I could go on about some extra new features but you get the idea. There's free, new, interesting, high level stuff added to the game to keep it enjoyable.
A couple of other things that have kept it interesting are that different build are better suited for specific game zones. For instance, I have a level 50 healer that I love playing in the 40-50 PVE zones. There's a level 20-30 PvP and PvE zone though that I like to have my Katana scrapper in. The healer would get smoked by himself, while the scrapper kicks butt. If I want to team PvP in the 40 to 50 zone though, the healer is good again.
Also, the game lets me have 10 alts. Some people I've heard say this is bad, but I can't find anything about it I don't like. I love trying the game using entirely different heroes with different builds. I also unlocked a WarShade that I'm having fun experimenting with. They're shape-shifters. One thing about them is you can play them as a tank, a blaster or a troller, depending on which one of three "shapes" you take. You can do the same missions, quests again that you did before, but if you do, they have new enemies that are made just to take on Warshades. If I want, though, there are warshade contacts that can give me a whole new set of missions.
Still more for high level characters comes via the welcome addition of a crafting system. It's fun to go looking for arcane loot. You need that to power the best crafted power enhancement sets, and it's worth a bundle at the auction house if you want to sell. One of the best places to find arcane loot is in the high level PvP zone, but you can find it in many PvE zones too if you don't want to endure a villainous beat down lol.
The latest edition also added a high level task force, which is actually the best-done task force in the game to-date. You'd have to experience it to get the feel for it, but it's a really cool story with movie-type cut scenes at critical moments, an incredible variety to the mission types, many archvillains to take down with various powers, requiring various strategies; and the end of that has a very cool showdown with Lord Recluse (villain chief of the game world in CoH) and his highest ranking henchmen. After you get his henchmen, nasties stream down from a drop ship while you try to dismantle Recluse's shield array. Once that's down, it's your team versus recluse in the big showdown. The reward table offered at the end of it is simply wicked too.
While I'm thinking of it, the randomly occuring alien invasions also tailor themselves to the level of the hero engaging them, so that's good for us high level types too
When I look at it, I see some really creative thinking going on in this game to avoid the level cap dead-end. I'm really having a good time.
They should do away with level systems. Skill/sandbox is the only way to go, endless possibilities, endless skills. Take EVE for example, do whatever you want, there is no end game because it goes on forever.
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True. Thats about all there is to do in a linear MMO and thats the reason why many of us want to see more "sandbox" style MMOs. Unfortunately, we'll probably be waiting a while before we see a good, polished, sandbox MMO...
The point of an MMO is to control a character in an alternate reality. To do that, developers really need to focus on immersion and suspension of disbelief. Everyone raiding and grinding the same monsters over and over again for the same pieces of equipment really doesn't do much for world building. As everyone has pointed out in this thread and the most true MMO is Eve in the sense that it feels like another world you could really live in. Whether that's healthy or not for all of us I know not...
Most mmorpgs are based on a simple concept : goods collection.
From this point of view, endgame isnt really different than the leveling-step : both aspects are based on collecting goods.
During the leveling step, you're collecting experience points, gear... And "tokens" that say which quests you've completed (if there's any quests involved in the game).
During the endgame, you cant collect experience points anymore, so you're left with gear and "quest tokens". (in some very extreme cases, experience points are replaced by reputation points, honor, arena points and pvp ratings)...
But anyway, many many mmorpg can be reduced to this very simple concept : goods collection.
That said, the problem is not that there is an activity based around this concept. The problem isnt the collection of goods, the problem is that this activity is pointless, in most cases.
Let's take an obvious example : solo-offline games. For example Devil May Cry series or some RPG like Final Fantasy (whatever number), or any solo-offline game where there is some good collecting activity.
In Devil May Cry series, you can unlock the hard mode, the extreme mode, the "very deadly mode", the "unbelivably bloody mode" and the very famous "super-alternative-costume-that-look-very-badass" (in fact this costume is only a color variation of the regular costume).
What's the point of collecting those goods (difficulty modes, costume...), if :
In Final Fantasy games, you can "beat the game 100%", in other words you can achieve everything that's achievable in the game, from beating the last boss to looting the maximum quantity of each items and discovering 100% of the map (Star Ocean 3).
What's the point of collecting these goods, if you already dont like the game enough to restart a new game ? I mean : would you start a new game, just because you missed ONE UNIT of an useless item in any RPG, if you dont strongly love this game already ?
The answer to these questions is easy : there's no point.
This is the same for many mmorpg : collecting goods just for collecting goods is pointless... Unless you already love the game enough to play it again and again, even if there was no good collection to complete.
Now, this is less obvious with mmorpg, because players are deluding themselves into thinking owning some virtual goods are making them "special people" or "heroes who are killing dragons"....... In a game where everyone looks like everyone else and where killing dragons involve very little story/scenery/drama/scenario (unlike a real offline RPG).
Just ask yourself : if the mmorpg you're playing right now was an offline solo game, would you play it ?
To me the point of a MMO is the following.
To immerse you in a fantastic world
To be fun
To give you the tools to palycooperativle with friends
To support a great and rich ingame community.
To get money for the game makers.
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Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII
Currently Playing : EvE Online.
davcha hit it on the head, most MMO are all about collecting items which is rediculas if you really think about it. What do you do once you have collected all of you characters uber items? nothing really, cause most MMOs forget to add actual game play in there games.
The problem i think with todays MMORPG is that PVP is secondary if even that. If you added a really good PVP system then there is more purpose to collecting items and building up your character. Cause survival would be your number one priority. Hence the better items the better chance of not getting PKed.
I think why so many new MMORPGs are boring is cause theres little to no PVP. Just my 2 cents.
MMOCrunch
The best way to know what a MMO is supposed to be is to play a good MUD, grinding + pvp but most importantly, community interaction. Which kind of gets lost went you move to a huge MMO.
Well said. I enjoy CoH for the fact that I can design so many different heroes (power-wise) and enjoy a diversity of teams because pick up groups are the norm rather than the exception there.
This is one model....1st popularized by EQ 1 and continued ad nauseam in WOW, EQ 2 & LotRO. (just to name a few)
My first MMORPG was Lineage 1, and the real point of the game was to get your character to the top levels and then battle with other clans for control of one of the many pre-built keeps scattered around the land. Lineage 2 continued with this same model, but made getting to the top far too difficult (IMO)
Next on my list was Dark Age of Camelot, and in this game the goal was to level to the top, gear up and spec your character properly, and then head out into the Frontiers to battle with 2 opposing forces, again for control of pre-built keeps which lead to control of the best dungeon (and source of cash) in the game at that time. Your secondary goal was to keep killing players until you got enough realm points to purchase special talents that could only be obtained by killing other players. We all hope WAR will continue this model.
Another model was Shadowbane, in this case players could build their own cities in the realm, and spend time attacking and defending them from other players. Poor execution sort of ruined this game, but I'm hoping AOC brings a bit of this sort of thing back to us.
UO created the sandbox box model, (along with AC 1) where players were given the tools create their own world and then control territory as they saw fit. Games like EVE continue this legacy where player corporations build stations and defend areas of space that they claim as their own.
So, the big difference between the model you've described and these other 4 really comes down to one key factor, in these other games, what the players do actually influences the game world that they play in ...and hence make them far more attractive to me. (oh yes, and notice, these final 4 models all involve player conflict, and are not PVE oriented)
I'll be steering clear of item collecting, gain yet another level games that follow the first model from now on, they just aren't for me.
(forgive me SWG players, I never played the game so wasn't sure which category it best fit in....)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with Kyleran. My first mmo was Dark Age of Camelot. Back in the golden days people went out into the RvR zone so that they could give their realm an advantage. When Darkness Falls was the shit people would actively do whatever they could just so that they can reopen it for their realm.
Player conflict again is a must if you ask me, as well as being able to influence the game itself. Have your efforts somehow impact your realm/faction. If I have no other reason to play aside from just personal gain, it won't hold me for long. There's only so much phat lewt I can collect before I just don't care anymore.
Also can't forget community. If it's full of asshats, morons and just all around unpleasant people then agin I'm gone. No point in sticking around. By the time I find the small ammount of people I would like to game with I'd have to slog through all the others whom I just don't care for for varying reasons. I realise this makes me come off as a cynic but that's me. I however have no problem with having all the "unsavory" folk be pited against me in some sort of player conflict. IMO you need a person to hate, or a group of people to hate. It gives conflict, common interests and builds community.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
The point of an mmo for me is to live some of my time in a virtual world, and live the role in that virtual world as to what i like, i like fantasy and sci-fi so those are the games i tend to lean towards to persist in, and how they are done is what makes my mind up if i like it or not.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Ever Game has the Grind X, get X, kill X, and Fetch and run things.
To me the many things that are great in my life for MMO's are the ability to meet people, find friends, and simply be nice or an ass. To me the MMO should be a game for all types of people the PvP, PVE, sadly the Chuck Noris Lovers and sure raiding/end game content. Thought the one thing that several games don’t factor in is that people have lives and don’t want to site some where 7+hrs to get an item or farm thousands of items simply to get a new shiney toy.
What WoW has done is nice the rested xp and better PvP rewards from weekend events. The free MMO's have to cute corners in some regards to accomplish what they set out to do. From this the grind makes it easier in WoW as EvE has the train skills while you sleep. CoH/CoV has while in a larger group your xp is gained faster. Also what if you like to casual play and yet also love lore in a game. Look at Eve, WoW, EQ, COV/COH, and a slue of other games are now making this a integrated part to games. Sure I can sit in a section of a game and spend 15-40 minutes reading in-game books or papers.
So what I look for in a game is how can I play and not grind to much, what’s the lore like, how helpful/friendly is the community to meet people and can my friends possibly like it. The game should combine these ideas in a seamless fashion for a wide range of gamers to become attracted to it.
What's the point of anything?
Some people have fun leveling and the things you listed.
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the main difference between a single player rpg and mmo is that in a single player game you are rewarded with an ending. much like reading a book it's telling a story and it has some predefined destination, you are given closure and a sense of satisfaction by completing the story. but in mmo that is difficult to achieve if achievable at all. so they have to compensate it with copious amount of loot or raid content.
so alteast there is some purpose to a single player game but not so much in a mmo. because at the end of the day when the server comes to an end all you have left is many hours logged in a spreadsheet in some datacentre.
wow is great at hiding it's grind, if you look at the copious amount of endgame centent, the time required to do various task to achieve attunement, rep etc it adds up to alot of time committed to repetitious mundane gameplay.
The main purpose of any game is to have fun. If you are not enjoying yourself, don't play. It is pretty simple.
Level/Class-based systems are just as viable as skill/sandbox-based systems. The only difference between the two is that one works a little better for PVE and the other works a little better for PVP. Neither system will assure that a game is fun or popular. In unfun and boring games (regardless of how it is structured), It is just as painful to grind skills, skill-points, or money as it is to grind XP.
There is a lot of things that I like about EVE, but certain people are just as restricted in that game as any other. Just because certain games do not suit your particular playstyle does not mean that it is a bad game.
P.S. - If you hate level/class based games, why are you playing EQ2?
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
MMOs are supposed to be games you play online, with alot of people. To extend it, they are typically built to try and be neverending, so you keep paying month after month. Most of the current MMOs have taken that and turned it into it's purest form of pointless grinding, while forgetting that the MMO was originally about playing with other people.
But to answer your question directly: community. That's what MMOs are supposed to be about. They really aren't right now, but I hope the next batch will be.
The main purpose of any game is to have fun. If you are not enjoying yourself, don't play. It is pretty simple.
Level/Class-based systems are just as viable as skill/sandbox-based systems. The only difference between the two is that one works a little better for PVE and the other works a little better for PVP. Neither system will assure that a game is fun or popular. In unfun and boring games (regardless of how it is structured), It is just as painful to grind skills, skill-points, or money as it is to grind XP.
There is a lot of things that I like about EVE, but certain people are just as restricted in that game as any other. Just because certain games do not suit your particular playstyle does not mean that it is a bad game.
P.S. - If you hate level/class based games, why are you playing EQ2?
Actually Netzoko had a point you missed. Skill systems mean that your character does not have an end to their progression. You can always evolve your character in different ways. In a class/level system, your character will always be X class, and can't go back and take a different path. Your levels are really a countdown to the end of that character's progression. Once you cap out, you either make an alt, or switch focus to a different grind like gear.It's much easier to experience than explain. Anyone that's played SWG pre-cu, eve, or the other couple good skillbased games knows what I'm talking about.
To say one is better than the other will never be more than a statement of your own personal opinion, no matter how you frame the argument. I personally like a hybrid system where there are broad classes, but also a skill system that allows for a lot of room for variety within each class.
I didn't miss the point, I just happen not to agree with it. Level based systems can be made unending just as easily as skill based systems if the developer wishes. Also, level-based and character custimization are not mutually exclusive.
I am not totally ignorant when it comes to skill based games. While I will admit that I never played SWG seriously (I only played for several weeks after lauch before returning to EQ), I did play EVE for almost a year (10 mos). There is no doubt that EVE has a lot of skills, but not all of them would be considered progression, especially if someone is trying to specialize. There are only so many skills an avatar can learn that will apply to Cruiser combat (if that is where a player wishes to specialize). After they reach that cap, they are forced to start learning skills in areas that may not even interest them.
I am not trying to bash skill/sandbox games in any way. They have their place and I enjoy them. However, they are not any more viable as MMORPGs as level/class-based games. A good game is a good game no matter how it is structured.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."