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Does non-Jedi melee belong in a SW MMO?
Ginaz
Member RarePosts: 2,574
Just wondering how many people would have a problem if in a future Star Wars MMO players would be allowed to choose a viable non-Jedi melee only class.? Or how many people thought the non-Jedi melee class' in swg should not have been put in the game?
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Comments
If there was a viable skill based system for character creation instead of the narrow class systems that MMOs are a slave to it wouldn't be an issue.
I think Wooks are probably pretty good shots with their bowcasters, but I wouldn't want one to swing an axe at me or even go hand to hand with one, because it is likely and logical that they wold be well versed in more than one of the skills.
THat is why the original system worked so well. I could play my music, shoot someone with a pistol AND get in a barfight and do pretty well unarmed.
Classes are fake.
BioWare, in the first KOTOR, directly addressed why you'd have melee in a ranged combat world.
If you found a way to make ranged combat non-decisive (that is, you've got an armor system that renders ranged energy weapons ineffective), suddenly melee combat becomes relevant again.
Furthermore, the melee weapons have cortosis weave, which means they can go toe to toe with lightsabers.
So, you can have non-Jedi melee. In fact, it might be smart to use weapons other than lightsabers against those who use energy resistant shielding/armor.
One of the huge problems with translating Hollywood combat into a game is that in the movies, Imperial stormtroopers cannot hit the broad side of a bantha. THAT is "starwarsy!".
So when designing your game, you've got inherent contradictions to overcome. Battle has to be resolved, but blasters are so clumsy and random that "starwarsy" combat is anything BUT quick and decisive.
One of the problems with wookiees is that they're supposed to be running around in all their furry naked glory, the assumption is that they have "natural" armor that makes them melee fiends. In SWG classic, though, they couldn't have that natural armor, because every PvP min/maxer would be a wook for that natural armor that gave them an advantage. Then the game would be overrun with wookiees. This is reflected in the inability of wooks originally to wear armor, which ironically put them at a disadvantage after their natural armor was waved away as imbalancing, so typically, the imbalance pendulum swings the other way, all in the name of PvP "balance".
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
absolutely a non-jedi class is viable in an SW mmo, take a look at Teras Kasi, Pike Man, Fencer and swordsman in SWG before the NGE. These had a good popularity even with ranged professions. I remember seeing some BH's that would either have TKM or Pike man as their secondary master profession, and I definetely think it would belong in an SW MMO.
Take a look at the Tusken raiders, other than their long ranged rifles, some would carry gaffi sticks. Or even take a look at some of the guards in Jabba's palace, they're carrying melee weapons. Just because it's the future doesn't necessarily mean people don't learn how to fight hand to hand. If that were the case, we wouldn't have martial arts academies now a days, only military academies and even in there they teach you hand to hand combat.
I miss my fencer... Master Pistoleer/Master Fencer = Bad mofo.
My Teras Kasi Master was a lot of fun to play against nightsisters in PvE and against anyone in PvP. I also could fire a rifle for a ranged option. Being able to do both was a lot of fun and very realistic. Skulking around in places like the Death Watch Bunker felt better suited to hand to hand combat. Blasting storm-troopers when on rebel missions out in the wilderness felt better suited to the rifle. Loved both and loved being able to mix different skills. Played the horn in the cantina too... Good times.
Oh yeah lol, and one of my favourite things to do was send my Combat droid to get nightsisters. Once they targetted it, I'd bring it back to me, then ambush them hand to hand. I'd collect the crystals they dropped and give them to jedi pals.
A good friend of mine was also a Master Pikeman. She really rocked the house with that thing. The animations were cool, and incidentally, pikes are very starwarsy. Those that don't think so should check out the Imperial Guards, Republic Guards, tusken raiders etc.. Loved using teras kasi at Fort Tusken too, pre-cu of course (game changes screwed up the mechanics of that and other fun places). Another TK and I would spend the whole night in that place, going toe-to-toe with tusken raiders. TK vs. gaffe sticks, good chaos indeed
To me the question should be a quite different: "Do jedi's belong in a SW MMO' (as a playable class).
lol, in KOTOR you can only play jedi.
"Don't hold breath about another KOTOR game coming from Bioware" - Chris Preistly
"Bioware is more intrested in pursueing development of it's own Intellectual properties"
- James Henly
As far as canon is concerned, the KOTOR games say 'Non-jedi melee is allowable and valid'; the Star Wars movies seem to say 'Maybe'.
More choices for players is always a better option for an MMO as long as each profession can be given its proper "due". So, in SWG's PreNGE case, if you have 30+ professions don't forget about the less "popular" classes and focus on freakin' jedi every publish. Oh, and BTW, if you have an SW MMO, you HAVE to allow playable jedi/sith. Not doing so would be a completely disappointing and foolish manuever by any publisher.
"Hurray, finally a game where I can fulfill my lifelong dream of taking emotionally dead women and finding the most financially viable means to exploit their bodies with the ultimate goal of making them Hugh Hefner's personal furniture."
Melee should be allowed, for sure. There is plenty of SW lore to support this. I just want melee combat to have it's place. I do NOT want to see people punching the wall of a turret or an ATST and be winning. That's just stupid. I would simply make some things completely immune to melee damage (minus the lightsaber, they are after all, special). Similarly, I would make a few things immune (at leat for a short period of time) to most ranged fire. Enter the shield generator.
Actually, I believe Star Wars is "a long time ago"
Not quite - remember Grievous' b*tches on the ship in the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, and also on Utapau where Obi-Wan confronts Grievous? Those guys had some kind of energy-pikes that could stand up against a lightsaber.
The lightsaber is not permanently equipped.
You can always use one of the many non-lightsaber melee weapons in KOTOR and KOTOR II. In some situations you're better off NOT using a lightsaber.
If you check out the LucasArts board, there are players who conciously attempt to play KOTOR and KOTOR II all the way through without using a lightsaber, just to see if they can do it, and to be different. It's not easy, especially when the design assumes you will be unable to resist the lure of the lightsaber, but it can be done.
As for canon, yes, you saw non-lightsaber melee in Ep III.
But there was NO melee in Ep 4 except for the duel between Vader and Obi-Wan.
There was no melee in Ep 5 except for the duel between Vader and Luke.
SWG was set between Eps 4 and 5. So melee was a bit...unstarwarsy in that setting.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
First, yes, KOTOR can be played without sabers. Secondly, to be technical, you cannot really "allow" a person to play as a sith because being sith has nothing to do with a set of skills. It's more like a religous following, and a race before that. In SWG, I played as a sith, and I never picked up a lightsaber. It was all based on role playing based on basic mindset.
That aside, yes, melee belongs in Star Wars. Just with anything, sometimes melee is better than ranged, say...ig someone invades your home. With so many tight spaces, if you have some blunt item, or even a blade; short or long, you have the upper-hand. That, and really...I doubt that it would make sense that, within Star Wars, that the only melee weapon would be a lightsaber.
Luke was knocked out by tusken raider when looking for R2-D2, i guess that would count as melee
Melee fits fine for SW MMO but in SWG (pre-CU) it was too powerfull. Only rifleman was any good and most of the players were melee for that reason.
Not quite - remember Grievous' b*tches on the ship in the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, and also on Utapau where Obi-Wan confronts Grievous? Those guys had some kind of energy-pikes that could stand up against a lightsaber.
Oooh, nicely remembered - I forgot about this. I was thinking about the pike that Landau held when he was infiltrating jabba's palace in Return of the Jedi. It was an obvious melee weapon though we didn't actually see him use it.
ummmm, don't mean to burst your bubble, but have you actually tried wielding a sword inside a home? I have, have 5 katanas, all of different sizes, and I gotta tell ya, with walls, tables, desks and all sort of stuff getting in the way, swinging a sword is NO easy task... WORSE if you're in tight spaces. Sorry but in that case, the gun wins. Now if you're talking about outdoors with ample space and lots of places to hide, then that would be debatable.
My Main pre-NGE was a TKM / MP and that build was my favorite. I could beat the shit out of most Jedi...that was before SOE killed him!
ummmm, don't mean to burst your bubble, but have you actually tried wielding a sword inside a home? I have, have 5 katanas, all of different sizes, and I gotta tell ya, with walls, tables, desks and all sort of stuff getting in the way, swinging a sword is NO easy task... WORSE if you're in tight spaces. Sorry but in that case, the gun wins. Now if you're talking about outdoors with ample space and lots of places to hide, then that would be debatable.
I feel your pain....I am also a sword lover. I have holes in my walls and ceiling, slashes in a couple of chairs...of course, maybe I shouldn't drink when I practice....
A sword was an example, but I meant something hand-to-hand, in general. Knife, club, piano wire; I really do not care. If I have someone in my home, and I see a gun, I would prefer to use something that will involve me, quickly, going to them and causing them large amounts of pain, and disabling them as a threat. That's my opinion, so no "bubble" to burst. That's one, two is the fact that this thread is about Star Wars melee, so...focus on the Star Wars part of the conversation?
Also just to add to this discussion if you look at the Star Wars lore outside of Lucas's own hand writing and what people have come up with since the original movies, Non-Jedi melee is more abundant in the SW universe than the Sabers are. and if you look at the time line of SWG set between Episode 4 and 5 jedi are all but extinct the only ones with sabers are Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, luke (who cant use it that well) and maybe yoda I havent dont remember anything about his in the books. there are also obvisously other jedi in hiding but still very few, Boba himself bagged a couple of jedi and took their sabers, he even fought vader in a saber duel at one time. but my point is back in the original SWG not this POS, the Profession Teras Kasi, was based off of SW lore, they were a martial arts semi force sensitive group, from what i understand, the old sith lords used blades and such before sabers became popular amongst the force users. that was even in KOTOR. Also in the movies we were looking at a War not everyday life for the universe so soldiers will always have guns....but I bet there will be fighting contest and such too also I'm sure Han Solo didnt always have his blaster and bounty hunters needed to take people in alive some times so knocking out would have been more effective. But non of that was in the books about the War.
One more note, in the future I'll be willing to bet that even when we have laser guns and other things of that sort a drunken bar brawl wont be using any technology just good ole fist, bloody noses, and black eyes!
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Teras_kasi
I wanted to double check on my Teras Kasi knowledge. that site is amazing for quick run down of lore from Boba Fett to whoever you want to know about.
The designer needs to make melee seem organic in the setting. I think the KOTOR guys did a good job doing that...establishing early on why having swords and blasters on the same battlefield made sense.
The key thing is for the combat system to have a feel that players will accept. One of the things SWG never got down very well was why, aside from the artificiality of the combat system, you'd have unarmed fighters (well, sort of unarmed those vibro knucklers were a weapon after all) and one /two handed swordsmen and pikemen routinely seen on battlefields that should be dominated by ranged weapons, as they seemed to be in every last Star Wars movie. The exception of course was Jedi, but as we saw in Ep 2's combat scenes, enough blaster fire even from droids will overwhelm Jedi deflection techniques. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is never a good idea, unless you've got a defense against guns that gives knives a tactical advantage.
KOTOR explained a way to do this. You see the same thing happening in Herbert's Dune books...how technological developments restored the efficacy of melee combat.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi