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Could a pre-CU style KotOR / SWG2 work in this day and age?
BlitzBlade
Member Posts: 71
Could a pre-CU style KotOR / SWG2 work in this day and age?
When you look at the level of depth and complexity of STARWARS GALAXIES back when it was first released, I think you have to ask yourself.......Honestly, could this game really work in the "World of Warcraft" era?
If you look at the main draws to WoW, you will see that it really appeals to a very large demographic. It's simple bug free game play really hooks a lot of people and keeps them engaged for the long term. I think you really have to look at their success and wonder if we will ever see a complex MMORPG ever again. I mean, millions of subs sends a message to the industry and money is the only thing that really matters to business people.
What I loved about pre-CU game play, is the fact you could become anything! You could do anything you wanted in game and that was such an escape. I loved the fact that crafting as well as combat, required a working human brain. You had to really think about what you were doing in order to achieve a level of success. It was a game that took practice to be good at and even then, there was always someone better than you. You just don't see games like this anymore. Maybe some day it will be possible to have a game that would allow for individual servers to have diverse degrees of complexity. One server for "causal gamers" another for the "Hardcore" guys.
On the other hand, WoW and games like it, require very little commitment to play and the learning curve is minimal. To me this is a very boring concept, but I can see why people would like this game. I can see why this game has millions of subs. It's just so easy to get into...unless of course you are like me. I LOVED having to walk everywhere. I LOVED 10 min shuttle waits! You know I had some of the best times and met some of the most interesting people while waiting for a shuttle. I made friends in those starports that I still have today.
I really can't stand games like WoW, for the very reasons that make them so popular. I want a challenge...I want depth...I want a never ending sandbox game that allows me to do everything or nothing at all. You just don't see that in todays "popular" mmorpg titles. It's all very standard and that suxass! Their simplistic design makes me want to puke and I can't believe I continue to throw my money away searching for the game I lost years ago.
So, given all the major differences, could a Pre-CU style KotOR / SWG2 work in todays MMORPG market? I really don't know. I guess you really have to make the determination as to what is a "successful" mmorpg. Is it a 100k in subs...200k...10 million? At what point can one declare victory? I guess, from a business point of view, WoW sets the bar as to how all mmorpgs should be judged.
I really don't think 5 million subs is a fair goal for any MMO to achieve. Do I think a pre-CU stlye KotOR is good for 500k to 1 million subs?...HELL YEAH I DO! But, the question here is...Is that enough of an incentive for a gaming company to invest millions in development? My limited experience in such matters prevents me from drawing a conclusion...I really don't know.
As much as I want a NEW Pre-CU style Starwars game, I have to wonder if we will ever see such a thing in our lifetime again. To me, that wonderful game was sheer magic and I have yet to find anything that fills that void from a gamers point of view. Every game I have tried to play since December 2005 has just been so boring. I have tried so many titles and I have yet to recaputre the magic of my first time loading into Mos Eisley.
Anyhow, as much as want the next STARWARS IP to be like the old game, I know that it won't. However, if some rogue developer out there got a wild hair and decided to make the game most of us loved...Could it work in todays market? I think so...what's your take?
Comments
Short answer is no..moneymen wont allow it they want the WOW template and the WOW subs..anything less will be seen as a failure which is frankly supid WOW is a one off and i really cant see another MMO ever getting near those numbers again.
Sadly I agree...Perhaps one day we can find a balance. It's like that quote from "Lord of War"..."7 out of 10 people on this planet own a gun...my mission is to arm the other 3?"
I think what the industry will attempt to do is, not only take hold of the masses, but also seek out gamers like us. The last 2 or 3 miliion players looking for a game we can really get into. That really should be the goal in my opinion.
Sadly I agree...Perhaps one day we can find a balance. It's like that quote from "Lord of War"..."7 out of 10 people on this planet own a gun...my mission is to arm the other 3?"
I think what the industry will attempt to do is, not only take hold of the masses, but also seek out gamers like us. The last 2 or 3 miliion players looking for a game we can really get into. That really should be the goal in my opinion.
I think LucasArts just fails to understand that Star Wars is not as "big" as they think it is.
I'm sure that SW has a somewhat young fan base due to Ep. 1 - 3, but I think the bulk of all SW fans are the ones that grew up with the original movies (about 30 years ago now!). All those fans (me included) are now adults with jobs, families, etc. to care for and there will only be that many of us that have time to play MMO games.
The original SWG was a game for us "...veteran" SW fans and the subscription numbers the old SWG had is probably the numbers you will ever see for a SW MMO.
WoW on the other hand came just about the right time. The first generation of MMO's had already showed what worked and what did not work. Also look at the timeline, from Warcraft, WarCraft II, WarCraft III and finally WoW, all this happened in what, 10 - 15 years? Perfect timing! The only thing I can say is that Blizzard sure knew what they were doing.
I think we will never see such a complete game like pre-cu ever again. Like you alot of people tried to find their next game after swg but none did. On the bright side. Consider yourself lucky that you have lived this game, because im feeling lucky that my first mmorpg wasnt WoW. Maybe people who play now WoW and all the other eqclones are happy and im not because i cant enjoy mmorpgs anymore but i prefer this knowing that ive played the greatest mmorpg game with the best community ever. Its like the age of 60' that everyone says it was great but for those who didnt live that period looks very silly. I think our only hope is bioware and their plans for their upcoming game. We cant tell if it would be in sw universe but if bioware build a mmorpg that has the half features of swg pre-cu ill be very happy.
The next "hit" isn't going to come from cloning something else, it's going to come from someone trying something unique. SWG was way ahead of it's time.
SWG was ahead of its time, it appealed to a demographic that does not interest the moneymen, who seek to maximize profit by targeting the lowest common denominator.
If the cost of the infrastructure of an SWG PreCU comes down enough, we'll see games like it again, but not done by the big publishers, who are dominated by MBA types who love only money, not gaming.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
SWG was ahead of its time, it appealed to a demographic that does not interest the moneymen, who seek to maximize profit by targeting the lowest common denominator.
If the cost of the infrastructure of an SWG PreCU comes down enough, we'll see games like it again, but not done by the big publishers, who are dominated by MBA types who love only money, not gaming.
What about different servers for different levels of player....ie "the bunny hill"? This way big business could get both Hardcore and Casual gamers alike. A good example would be SWG if the were to Develop pre-CU, CU, and NGE servers. A player could simply choose what they wanted. It seems you could mak a lot of cash that way because you have all of the market...not a slice.
Alas, just profitable is not enough any more. You have to be REALLY profitiable in order to stay in business, when you're publically traded.
Corporations routinely close down divisions that are not profitable enough. I can understand why SOE does not have three different version of SWG up and running. Quite aside from the fact that it would be embarassing as all get-out that the NGE servers would be empty, there is a legitimate issue with running and maintaining two sets of code, let alone three.
No, the big boys want the WoW candy, and think that they're fighting over the same set of players...while ignoring niche markets that could be run profitably. But not with wild profits...and when you get to be a big player, wild profits are the only type acceptable.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
It's true that a simple, linear game for children like WoW has 6 million subscribers plus.
However a complex, nuanced, player-driven game for adults like Second Life has seven million.
Let's hope that nay new SW game is modelled after the latter and not the former.
But as for the original question, yes, once developers realize that WOW's sub numbers are a one time phenomenon, they'll lower expectation and be satisfied with games that can draw 500,000 players.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm...i never considered 2nd Life a game.... nor WOW only for children....But as for the original question, yes, once developers realize that WOW's sub numbers are a one time phenomenon, they'll lower expectation and be satisfied with games that can draw 500,000 players.
The problem is, companies are developing their games to be profitable at 500K subscriptions. 500K, which was once thought to be the entire potential MMO playerbase (when EQ was king of the hill), is now thought to be the minimum a game needs to be successful. It is part of the Hollywood big blockbuster mentality that has infected the gaming industry.
Look at the money being invested in MMOs. Interplay needs to invest $75 million into Fallout Online just to keep the license. Bethesda's parent company is investing $300 into starting an MMO company. Vanguard cost $30 million before Sigil made anything past a couple tech demos to show Microsoft they were doing something.
But it isn't Blizzards fault that everyone is copying WoW. Prior to WoW becoming the 300 lb gorilla, everyone was copying EQ, which was the 30 lb gorilla of its day. Basically, WoW was just an EQ clone built to be less of a tedious grind with system specs that most people already had. You can play WoW in small intervals and actually see advancement, and most people didn't need to upgrade their PC to be able to run it.
The tedium is no longer the standard, but the ever increasing system specs is still the norm. LotRO is the only recent MMO that could run decently on an older system. LotRO's system requirements aren't that much higher than EQ2's (only difference is LotRO requires a 1.8 GHz processor while EQ2 requires 1 GHz) and LotRO runs much better on the minimum specs than EQ2 runs on a system that has LotRO's minimum specs.
As stated before. I don't see it happening, which is really sad. I wasn't there for 10 min. shuttle runs, but I was there for JTL and boy did I enjoy the complexity of the game. I loved the fact that I could mix and match professions, build a house, fly a ship et al. I hated it when in the CU they changed it to a level based game. It's so ridiculous because it alienates players when forming groups ("Sorry, but we need someone of X level so we can get exp and/or survive") Boy do I miss my master swordsman/TK I was able to kick butt hand to hand and with a sword. Now it's just too simplified.
SWG, Horizons and now Ryzom. UO on the brink. We're basically left with EVE as the "sandbox" style of game. This is NOT good news for those of us who prefer freedom and depth in our gaming.
I suspect we'll need to suffer thru 5-10 more years of the Rise of Linearity and then somebody will put out a unique new 3rd generation MMO, with freedom and depth, kind of like a "sandbox" for player creativity, and it will be hailed the Next Big Thing.
I only hope I'll live to see that day, as I'm not a young man anymore. :-(
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
I wholly agree. I remember flying in to Kasshyykk and trying to walk up a hill - and I couldn't. I said to myself; 'Uh-oh, someone at SWG has got lazy' and so, in the largest sense possible, it turned out'.
Hi all,
I actually think a pre-cu KOTOR / SWG2 or other Sci-fi could do pretty good. The reason being
Anyhow, these are my thoughts for now.
IMO,
Tauceti
some pretty good points...lets hope you work for BioWare!
I hope so, I really do hope so, because I'm getting tired of redundant fantasy MMO's. I thought that even the things I didn't play like Politician in SWG was awesome and even though I never played it, there were times were I thought about it. It gets really tiring when all you do in MMO games is "kill this" "collect that" "Bring back this" I'd like something more.
See I always pictured that, in a SW MMO set in the middle of war, 3 big space ships would land near the city where you were, and all of a sudden an army of storm troopers would swarm in, a P.A. would sound out saying "By order of the Empire, we've been informed that there's been sightings of rebels recruiting in this area, cooperate and you will not be harmed." then they would start hassling PC's NPC's and then all of a sudden a bunch of Rebel PC's and NPC's would run out to attack the storm troopers while trying to escape and of course if you were a Rebel PC and you were approaced by one of the storm troopers and they found out you were Rebel, you'd be in serious trouble.
Now a days in the NGE it doesn't matter either way unless you're flagged and still it's lacking because you honestly don't feel like you're in the middle of the civil war, you have to go to Restuss for that and I never really liked it all that much.
I will admit, if they do come out with KOTOR:O it will be a shame that I won't be able to see the sights from the movies (Jabbas palace, Owen's farm etc.) or get to ride the ships from the movies. The ones from KOTOR are ok I guess, but I don't like the design on some of them. Also, if they do allow Jedi, it HAS to be a profession that is WORKED FOR and worked HARD for. I remember someone did a poll where he suggested that, rather than having one "alpha" class (Jedi) instead that they put 5 Beta classes to allow more variety (Jedi, Night sister, Mandalorian and I can't remember the rest). I thought this was a great approach as it could encompass 5 different play styles (melee, ranged, beast mastery etc.) and this way not everybody would want to be Jedi because it's "T3h l33ts!"
I know I know, it's all speculation... but it certainly seems like things are pointing that direction.
This almost makes me want to re-sub just to go to my old player city and re-live those memories
I know what you mean Blitz, if you ever do, go to tatooine, go to the middle of the desert, stare straight up into the stars and look at the two awesome star destroyers orbitting the planet. It's so awe inspiring.
I share the OP's feelings about old SWG 100% , complexity, depth....
But about it being not very attractive as a business concept. Have you ever heard about http://secondlife.com ?
It's a very very succesfull project in money terms and it offers "escape" entertaiment in all possible forms
Second Life is 99% porn-profit and 1% non-profit.
Virtual sex makes me sick and they've broken so many laws with the mature content, no age rating, no age restriction, not taxing people.. whilst they are adding this all now, I'm amazed they didn't lock them up for fraud years ago.
SWG had alot of nice ideas. How you could be anything. If you didn't like combat u could go crafting set up a business and have as much fun as you would have in combat. You didn't even need to ahve combat to be powerful, just pay other people to fight for you. Yes alot of nice ideas. Piss poor implemination.
Say what you will but the game was broken from the moment go. Combat classes were completly unbalanced. It was buggy, not much content for the fighting classes etc... etc...
Tbh the only thing that kept people playing was the sandbox atmosphere and all the hard work people put in their businesses, they didn't want to lose it.
For a mmo to succeed in this day and age it must have afew things.
Most importanatly it MUST have a good launch and a bug free game from the word go. This is a MUST. Vanguard is living proof of what not to do, and LOTRO is a great example of how to launch a game.
It has to have a nice easy introduction to the game. It has to guide u into the game easy. Not like in SWG where it just dropped you into a world and said "There you go have fun." And the person there is going "WTF?"
A easy to use UI and a brief simple explanation to your skills, spells etc... I was recently playing Pirates of the Burning Sea, and i was looking down at the skills and my brother came and said, "How come they put so much information on the skill, it would be so much better if it was just a brief explaination of what it does." And tbh its true. It takes time to get used to all the abilities you have, and the last thing you wanna do is read afew paragraphs worth of information.
Anyway thats just what i think. I could be full of complete BS for all i know :P
Responding to OP.
No. Thats why Pre-cu failed. Bioware will use systems that work and improve them.
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