Traditionally skill based games gave higher skilled players more options and versatility in that skill, not as you imply more damage. But you are right in one sense with more skills open to them higher skilled players should be able to win, however by it's very nature this is far from guaranteed.
Having a better range, using less mana per spell or increased mana regen are all great skills to have when your opponent may not, but they do not give you the god given right to victory as in level based games.
That said I 'intentionally' know nothing about DF so I don't know how they're designing it, but decent pvp should be based arounf pros and cons, swings and rounabouts which allow player skill to play the bigger part, higher game skill level should just edge the pros over the cons in some ways.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I think you are misinterpreting what is being written. There is a leveling system. UO is not completely skill based either. I never claimed that because a skill was higher level = auto win, but you can't ignore that it helps.
I think you are misinterpreting what is being written. There is a leveling system. UO is not completely skill based either. I never claimed that because a skill was higher level = auto win, but you can't ignore that it helps.
So you aren't questioning Darkfall being a skill-based MMO but the very definition of skill-based MMORPGs. Darkfall is a skill-based MMORPG based on the definition of skill-based. In your opinion, what is a better example of skill-based mmorpgs than UO?
first off it will be a fresh of breath air because the game mechanics havent been done like that in a long time.....and when the game comes out it will be new, who cares how long it was developed. Im not saying it will come out, because lets face it, there are signs that show it may not. however to the darkfall groupies, this will be a breath of fresh air.
as one person said above, its a mash full of good ideas only on paper. you are correct, it needs to deliver, but boy if there is one game to hope for darkfall is it. What if it did deliver? What would you guys gripe about then?
The fact is there are people that like full loot and people who dont. if you dont, then go play something right now and leave us be.....be happy that someone is making something for our crowd finally. i have a feeling most people who dont like full loot have been griefed in some game and it physically/mentally hurts them to have something like that happen to them in a video game. I mean why would you even care?
UO was skill based in the sense of timing. For example, 2 characters with maxed skills fight each other, the other one has better timing of spells and better spell combos. So its sort of like, this is a horrible example, but lets say counter strike where in the better player will most likely win however there are skill points/ or leveling as you say, associated with your character.
If you sit there and say Darkfall, in theory, has no potential to be a great game then you are bitter about some prior gaming experience. Ill be the first to admit, ive seen it first hand and been burned several times by games, Darkfall may never come out, and even if it does it may be crap....but as far as im concerned darkfall is probably one of the only games im willing to wait for nowadays. I will probably try age of conan as well, but even that one makes me shaky as well. You just never know these days what is gonna be delivered.
I wasn't questioning DarkFall, but MMORPGs as a whole on the term skill-based. I have played many so it isn't as if I play FPS games and this is the first time I have looked into MMORPGs, as a matter of fact, and many people here will tell you, I do not play nor like FPS games.
Skill when it comes to MMORPGs can mean so many different things. Even level based games have the "timing" skill. But I would be willing to wager that more times than not, even when people are the same level, they are not on even grounds when it comes to PvP. There are potions people take, there are duration buffs people may receive, something that doesn't take any skill, and it completely luck based, is critical hits. Gear that may make little difference, but it still helps. All these things put people on terms that are not ideal to make it completely skill based.
Take gear out, take levels out, take crits out if they want it to be skill based. MMORPGs will always have these things though because they are in RPGs.
I hear what you are saying, even in WoW I found elements of skill I just felt like UO really took me to the edge of my seat. In UO I was only an average pvper, there were some people I was not going to beat often, but every now and then I would be some of the top players in the game, and it was neat to know that I timed things just right in that battle and played well enough to defeat someone better than me.
Im also a "sandbox" style mmo freak....i like freedom and open ended stuff. Take guild wars for example, probably one of the smoothest non buggy games ever released from the start. Great setup, I cant find much to say bad about guild wars, but I coulndt stay hooked because all pvp was consensual. I like random and chaos. In WoW you had some random pvp but the battlefields or whatever they are called pulled players into that instead of field pvp. Once again I know im in the minority here for wanting stuff like that but instances and order tends to push me away from games.
But no matter what games we all like, its been a sad time when games come out all buggy, and only giving us half of what was promised. So if it takes them 10 yrs to make DF but its fun, then ill wait, but if it sucks Ill be the first to pat the anti darkfall gamers on the back and say "you were right". Ive been there before.
Nope, you are spot on with what I was explaining to the other poster.
Ahh i see where you're coming from then. And yes it is a valid argument. It has been argued a lot on these boards, what exactly does skill based mean. I define skill based by how your characters develops. Others define skill based by the gameplay. Based on the standard definition of skill based being how the character is developed, Darkfall is a skillbased MMORPG but, based on the definition of skill based being the player's skill, Darkfall is not. While player skill does have a huge affect in Darkfall's combat, there are outside factors that will effect the outcome of the battle.
Nope, you are spot on with what I was explaining to the other poster.
Ahh i see where you're coming from then. And yes it is a valid argument. It has been argued a lot on these boards, what exactly does skill based mean. I define skill based by how your characters develops. Others define skill based by the gameplay. Based on the standard definition of skill based being how the character is developed, Darkfall is a skillbased MMORPG but, based on the definition of skill based being the player's skill, Darkfall is not. While player skill does have a huge affect in Darkfall's combat, there are outside factors that will effect the outcome of the battle.
Actually you just pointed out why DF is considered skill based. Of course no one's saying that outside factors arent going to affect the outcome.
Comments
Traditionally skill based games gave higher skilled players more options and versatility in that skill, not as you imply more damage. But you are right in one sense with more skills open to them higher skilled players should be able to win, however by it's very nature this is far from guaranteed.
Having a better range, using less mana per spell or increased mana regen are all great skills to have when your opponent may not, but they do not give you the god given right to victory as in level based games.
That said I 'intentionally' know nothing about DF so I don't know how they're designing it, but decent pvp should be based arounf pros and cons, swings and rounabouts which allow player skill to play the bigger part, higher game skill level should just edge the pros over the cons in some ways.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I think you are misinterpreting what is being written. There is a leveling system. UO is not completely skill based either. I never claimed that because a skill was higher level = auto win, but you can't ignore that it helps.
So you aren't questioning Darkfall being a skill-based MMO but the very definition of skill-based MMORPGs. Darkfall is a skill-based MMORPG based on the definition of skill-based. In your opinion, what is a better example of skill-based mmorpgs than UO?
Nope, you are spot on with what I was explaining to the other poster.
first off it will be a fresh of breath air because the game mechanics havent been done like that in a long time.....and when the game comes out it will be new, who cares how long it was developed. Im not saying it will come out, because lets face it, there are signs that show it may not. however to the darkfall groupies, this will be a breath of fresh air.
as one person said above, its a mash full of good ideas only on paper. you are correct, it needs to deliver, but boy if there is one game to hope for darkfall is it. What if it did deliver? What would you guys gripe about then?
The fact is there are people that like full loot and people who dont. if you dont, then go play something right now and leave us be.....be happy that someone is making something for our crowd finally. i have a feeling most people who dont like full loot have been griefed in some game and it physically/mentally hurts them to have something like that happen to them in a video game. I mean why would you even care?
UO was skill based in the sense of timing. For example, 2 characters with maxed skills fight each other, the other one has better timing of spells and better spell combos. So its sort of like, this is a horrible example, but lets say counter strike where in the better player will most likely win however there are skill points/ or leveling as you say, associated with your character.
If you sit there and say Darkfall, in theory, has no potential to be a great game then you are bitter about some prior gaming experience. Ill be the first to admit, ive seen it first hand and been burned several times by games, Darkfall may never come out, and even if it does it may be crap....but as far as im concerned darkfall is probably one of the only games im willing to wait for nowadays. I will probably try age of conan as well, but even that one makes me shaky as well. You just never know these days what is gonna be delivered.
I wasn't questioning DarkFall, but MMORPGs as a whole on the term skill-based. I have played many so it isn't as if I play FPS games and this is the first time I have looked into MMORPGs, as a matter of fact, and many people here will tell you, I do not play nor like FPS games.
Skill when it comes to MMORPGs can mean so many different things. Even level based games have the "timing" skill. But I would be willing to wager that more times than not, even when people are the same level, they are not on even grounds when it comes to PvP. There are potions people take, there are duration buffs people may receive, something that doesn't take any skill, and it completely luck based, is critical hits. Gear that may make little difference, but it still helps. All these things put people on terms that are not ideal to make it completely skill based.
Take gear out, take levels out, take crits out if they want it to be skill based. MMORPGs will always have these things though because they are in RPGs.
I hear what you are saying, even in WoW I found elements of skill I just felt like UO really took me to the edge of my seat. In UO I was only an average pvper, there were some people I was not going to beat often, but every now and then I would be some of the top players in the game, and it was neat to know that I timed things just right in that battle and played well enough to defeat someone better than me.
Im also a "sandbox" style mmo freak....i like freedom and open ended stuff. Take guild wars for example, probably one of the smoothest non buggy games ever released from the start. Great setup, I cant find much to say bad about guild wars, but I coulndt stay hooked because all pvp was consensual. I like random and chaos. In WoW you had some random pvp but the battlefields or whatever they are called pulled players into that instead of field pvp. Once again I know im in the minority here for wanting stuff like that but instances and order tends to push me away from games.
But no matter what games we all like, its been a sad time when games come out all buggy, and only giving us half of what was promised. So if it takes them 10 yrs to make DF but its fun, then ill wait, but if it sucks Ill be the first to pat the anti darkfall gamers on the back and say "you were right". Ive been there before.
Ahh i see where you're coming from then. And yes it is a valid argument. It has been argued a lot on these boards, what exactly does skill based mean. I define skill based by how your characters develops. Others define skill based by the gameplay. Based on the standard definition of skill based being how the character is developed, Darkfall is a skillbased MMORPG but, based on the definition of skill based being the player's skill, Darkfall is not. While player skill does have a huge affect in Darkfall's combat, there are outside factors that will effect the outcome of the battle.
Ahh i see where you're coming from then. And yes it is a valid argument. It has been argued a lot on these boards, what exactly does skill based mean. I define skill based by how your characters develops. Others define skill based by the gameplay. Based on the standard definition of skill based being how the character is developed, Darkfall is a skillbased MMORPG but, based on the definition of skill based being the player's skill, Darkfall is not. While player skill does have a huge affect in Darkfall's combat, there are outside factors that will effect the outcome of the battle.
Actually you just pointed out why DF is considered skill based. Of course no one's saying that outside factors arent going to affect the outcome.