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So AoC Feat Trees are the equivalent of six WoW talent trees per character?
AmazingAvery
Age of Conan AdvocateMember UncommonPosts: 7,188
So I came across an interesting post on the Official boards: http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=43567
"AoC feat trees are the equivalent of six WoW talent trees per character?" - based on Pauls Math 
"Every character has three feat trees and they can be viewed at any time by clicking the appropriate icon in your interface. There is one general tree specific to your archetype (Soldier, Mage, Priest or Rogue) and two trees specific to your class. "
Paul puts his view and interpretation of how the feats are layed out in AoC:
| Hello I never thought I would use the words “depravity” and “beautiful” in the same sentence, but this is the exception. The Dark Templar's Depravity Feat Tree is beautiful. To compare the World of Warcraft talent trees to the Age of Conan feat trees is laughable. The AoC feat trees are far more superior to WoW talent trees. And here is why. And I am not just talking about the back ground art and icons art, which are pretty. But I am talking about the mechanical layout of the feat tree itself. Here is the link to the feat tree system: http://community.ageofconan.com/wsp/...T&func_id=2002 Scroll down the page to where the picture of the Dark Templar's Depravity Feat Tree is to see what I am talking about. Also on that page is was reveal that each character will have One Archetype feat tree and Two Class feat trees. First we note that since the picture it shows 73 feat points used, I am guessing you start getting you feat points at level 5. When you choose your Archetype and have your Archetype feat tree available to you. This allow probably means at Level 20, you will get a free refund on feat points when you get access to your two class feat trees. Second is the layout of the feat tree itself, it's six across and eight tiers down. From the top tier, we see only one feat skill that has five points, so that means that it is probably five points per tier. This means it takes 35 points to reach the bottom tier. The 36th feat point going into one of the feat skills at the bottom tier. Also, note how the layout of the feat tree is set up, barring a few misc talents, the feat tree is formed into four subtrees. Two subtrees at tiers 3, 4 and 5. And Two subtrees at tiers 6, 7 and 8. These subtrees are not connect to each other, allowing for further character customization of a player's character. This will allow players to master subtrees in different feat trees, creating even combinations and more unique characters. And here is the great thing about this, because it only take 35 points to reach the bottom feat tier, you will have enough talent points at Level 80 to master two tier 8 feat skills from not just the same feat tree, but also from two different feat trees if a player want too. Unlike WoW, which was structured to only allow to master only one skill of the bottom of the WoW talent trees. But the subtrees balance this out by having the final tier feat skills at the bottom attached to subtree, making the player master a subtree to get the bottom feat skill attached to it. The player has 12 subtrees available to each character, six subtrees between tiers 3 and 5 and six subtrees between tiers 6 and 8. Because of this the AoC feat trees are the equivalent of six WoW talent trees per character. And compared to the way the feat trees are layouted in AoC, the WoW talent trees are a jumbled, linear mess. Finally, because there are also Archetype feat trees, a character can just master their one archetype feat tree, instead of their class feat trees, and just chose their class for weapon selection, abilities and spells/combos. I have to truly salute the Age of Conan creators for such a well thought out feat tree system, that is superior to any other feat/talent/spec tree system I know of. |
Paul puts some predictions in with the numbers, but we dont have full confirmation on actual specific's - although the Friday update in which we saw it was a good start. The number on the tree could just be art for all we know and it could be to early to assume there are refunds in AoC's system.
It sounds like the feat system will allow you to really hone some aspects of your character if you wish, but without gimping your game-play in the end. They have also confirmed the ability to respec.
Quote:
| “Our feat trees aren't being designed to define the character or character roles as much as they are there to help you customize your character somewhat and enhance elements you already have,” says game designer Evan Michaels. “We don’t want to punish you for making the choices that you want. We don’t want to make it so that you feel like you are less effective because you trained a certain series of feats.” |
The key difference in AoC's implementation is that they are not class defining. For example, priests will not be able to alter their healing potency with talents to prevent the scenario of "resto-spec or no group for you" The game's feat system can hardly be called WoW's just because it uses trees.
Paul goes on further to say:
| 1. By not having feats tree's, even characters of a certain class is a carbon copy of the other in game mechcanics. By having feat trees it allows customization of classes so no to characters of that class are exactly alike. The only other route to try that does not use feat trees is in Guild Wars is to let a character take a second class, like a mage character to the secondary of being a monk class. But you run a serious risk of homogenizing to where end-game guild demand everyone in their group becomes secondary heal-bots. Blizzard did NOT do a good job with their talent trees because it allow for only three linear progression tree; basically one useful route down in each talent tree. From the Depravity Feat Tree picture, a player is allow a multiple routes down the skill tree and not just one linear route. This makes a BIG difference in game play. Actually based on the math of how many feat points on the Depravity Feat Tree, 73 points, it take 36 points to get the skill at the bottom feat tree tier, a player should have enough feat points to spec to the bottom of two different feat trees by the time a player reach Level 80. 2. I completely disagree, refunding feat points to take a different path in the feat tree fun. It's fun to experiement. Now the one thing Blizzard did well is they allow Talent Tree Calculators on their WoW website, saving the players in game gold by allowing them to experient on talent trees for free on their website. I hope Funcom does something similar on their Age of Conan website when dealing with Feat Trees. You sound like you want your character to be able to do anything and have no weaknesses. 3. Alreadly pointed out in this post and on the first post of this threat that Funcom is not copying WoW on feat tree, but instead improving on the concept of Feat Trees. It's a good investment. Finally, unlike in WoW, Funcom is not including skills like taunt rating and spell casting protection of hit percentage in AoC Feat Trees, those are included in a different point system in AoC. |
Someone went on to say:
| I agree with you 100% - just because it's a tree system, does not mean that it's an identical system to WoW. The first thing that I noticed in AoC' tree was that it also allowed for horizontal point spending, not only vertical. In WoW, if you wanted ability C, you also may have been required to put points into A and B beforehand. But from the looks of what we have so far, there are multiple routes to reaching most feats - which allows for a hell of a lot more customization. I don't really understand what people expect from AoC. It seems as if every single time something almost resembles something done before, that a few people act as if the game is ruined. |
On the flip side, Objulen countered with:
I believe the OP is reading into the feats a bit too much. All we know for certain is that there will be one feat tree for ARs and two for classes; will we get refunds when we pick our class? We can't say, as it's not listed. It doesn't make sense to assume that we will, especially since that would make feat choices for those levels superfluous. As for the feat trees being too much like WoW, and removing character choice from the game, that's a bit irrational. First, how does making every character have the exact same abilities as other characters make them different? Secondly, WoW uses talent trees, for the most part, not to customize your character, but to define it. A priest in WoW can do damage or heal, but whether you deal damage or heal depends entirely on your build; it's an either or situation, and if you want to switch you have to respec. A few classes don't suffer from "dual role syndrome", but even then you have to choose between PvP and PvE builds. The way AoC feats are described, they aren't used to make your character, only to enhance it. While it is inevitable that some feats won't be better choices for certain rolls for some reason unless the developers are very, very careful (likely at the cost of enhancing some aspects of a character, which isn't worth it in my opinion), classes aren't defined by these feats like they are in WoW, only enhanced, which is a major difference. A Desecration oriented Dark Templar (assuming that you only choose on tree to specialize in) might end up being a moderately better tank than a Depravity oriented DT due to better self-healing, but it might be that Depravity generates better aggro, and in any event shouldn't be such an advantage that you need to pick one tree to tank with DT while you need to pick a different one to DPS (which is different than warriors, druids, or paladins in WoW, who have to pick specific trees to tank). |
Lastly from the Red link above:
Feats At the core of the character development system in Age of Conan are the feats. This allows you to use points gained when leveling up to give your character new capabilities and more existing ones more potent. It can be compared to the talents system found in other games, usually being a tree-shaped system to display the various talents. Every character has three feat trees and they can be viewed at any time by clicking the appropriate icon in your interface. There is one general tree specific to your archetype (Soldier, Mage, Priest or Rogue) and two trees specific to your class. As an example, the Dark Templar has access to the general Soldier feat tree in addition to his class specific feat trees called Depravity – focusing on combo-oriented feats – and Desecration which focuses on spell-oriented feats. The feats are designed to improve his combos and his spells, as well as to grant him new abilities. Feat trees all have different names for the different classes, such as the Juggernaut and Tempest trees of the Guardian class and the Brute and Carnage trees of the Conqueror class.  (Above: Dark Templar Depravity feat tree, note that everything here is work-in-progress.) One example on a new ability the Dark Templar receives through the feat system is the Dread Shadow that lies at the far end of his Depravity feat tree. Using this will summon a shadow companion that will rise from below and fight for him. Here are some examples on a few other feats available in Age of Conan:
“Our feat trees aren't being designed to define the character or character roles as much as they are there to help you customize your character somewhat and enhance elements you already have,” says game designer Evan Michaels. “We don’t want to punish you for making the choices that you want. We don’t want to make it so that you feel like you are less effective because you trained a certain series of feats.” There are also different feats in the game that will be trained automatically as you gain new levels, specifically the feats that determine what weapons and armor you can use. You also have crafting specific feats, but these are trained by performing crafting quests that will take you from novice to master in your chosen professions. |
So the question is whats your take on what we have seen so far? What system would you prefer?
Personally having two trees for my class and one for my Archetype should give me the ability to have alot of control over my character and have the ability to go down several different paths - without being stuck like in other games for making an unsure call early on in game. Certainly looks intriguing!
"Every character has three feat trees and they can be viewed at any time by clicking the appropriate icon in your interface. There is one general tree specific to your archetype (Soldier, Mage, Priest or Rogue) and two trees specific to your class. "
Comments
Just tell me respec is no problem in AoC. With enough trees to make a money jealous, you are bound to hose your character up a time or two. I would hate a system that indepth and no easy way to correct it.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
From what I added up, you get about 163 points of feats, compared to the 75 points that you get to spend, This is a good idea (163 x 3 = 489, 75 / 489 x 100 = 15.337... Meaning that you have about a 15% chance that somebody of your own class is going to be the same as you)
And to think that I came to this conclusion while I was criticizing the post.
163 x 4 (archetypes) = 652
163 x (14 x 2 {Class Specific}) = 4564
4564 + 652 = 5216
75 / 5216 x 100 = 1.437...
So, in a perfect universe, there would be about a 1.5% chance that the person you run into has the same layout as you, and that is not considering the equipment, level difference, or the fact that people tend to gravitate towards specific layouts.
100 / 1.5 = 66.666...
So, perfect world again, there would have to be 67 people fighting in an all level 80 match, in which everyone has the same general equipment for their class before anyone would get a duplicate.
I do wish the progression was more non-linear though, it looks like you just pick a branch and run down it without having to make any decisions, twists or turns. Just once you reach said level pick a tree and work your way down it. I just wish that if two people were to go for a specific feat, they would be able to reach it different ways, or at least have more branching out.
If there is one thing that I have learned in my 12+ years of on-line gaming is to never, ever under-estimate the power of the "flavor of the month" spec. While you may only have a 1.5% chance of running into someone like yourself, if you are in a hard core raiding guild you can add about 75% chance to that 1.5% chance for a total of 76.5% chance of running into someone like yourself.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
However, here it looks and reads like lots of diversity horizontal and vertical scales. Without not knowing what path to take to get to the required ability (and circumstance my require a change of ability) its hard to read into (esp with a fraction of feats shown for just one class).
So you have options galore, the ability to respec - has been mentioned, and the possibility of creating more of a 'unique' build.
So long as its easy to follow, but complex enough to cater for those who like to scratch their forehead sometimes
, easy to navigate and change then Im all for it.
It looks like you can invent new takes on typical builds, like say if you have a tank type, you can 'tweak' different extra area's depending on the needs of a situation more so.
In my own defense though, 1.5% is factoring in all of the classes. So I'll take a guess at your actual odds.
1 / 8 for all the classes (As some are bound to be more played and some less, I grouped some up to make it more realistic)
3.5 / 5 for that specific class (I had it as 3 as the FotM, 1 as himself, and 1 leaning to FotM)
(3.5 / 5) / 8 x 100 = 8.75
8 3/4% chance that they'll be like you.
(This is bound to be wrong because it's late and I'm sailing without a mast)
8.75 ~ 9
0.9/10
9.1/10 that there will be at least one
and this is were stuff gets really screwy.
9.1/10 = 1.098...
9 x 1.098 = 9.882
9.9/100
90.1/100 that there will be at least two
... That's wrong ...
I'm going to just say that the odds aren't astronomical. And then I'm going to bed, because the numbers are putting too much pressure on me sleep addled head. Maybe I'll practice my math tomorrow.
Well you did a good job in breaking the numbers down from a different perspective Cathalaode.
I look forward for more information and samples from different classes in the future.
It looks and sounds interesting thats for sure, however I wouldnt want to cast a judgement until I actually get in game and mess around with it.
We all know someone will crunch the numbers to find that FOM but it does seem with so many options that even this will take some time to do given the fact there will be so many different ways to go. The big question I would have is just how much of a difference will it actually make if I choose one path and a friend of mine chose another. Will there be a huge difference or just a cosmetic difference.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
The system does look nice, and i really hope it will add to the diversity of classes.
But i too think that within a short amount of time some asshat will post a must have cookie cutter list of feats that will be ran with by the community. Thus making people who try to make their character a bit different not wanted. Sad reality that games have become.
However, with PvP and PvE seperate what might work for one might not for another, especially considering gear can carry different bonus' for each. Although good thing about that is if something in PvP gets nerfed it shouldn't effect your PvE play and vice versa.
Actually, to be honest, I was expecting it to be a little more complex than that. Oh well, perhaps I was still thinking along the lines of AO.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1108215", true);
That aside, the true nature of a system like this is always in what it facilitates and how it functions in terms of character development--not that it is an array of icons in a tree shape with dependancies.
The fundamental difference between our feat trees and, for instance, WoW's talent trees is the fact that, in WoW, talents are generally used for defining your character on a fundamental level--whereas in Conan, feats are used to tweak your character in certain directions, without changing the fundamental playstyle of your chosen class.
For instance, in WoW, you have "Arms Warriors" (i.e. PvP Warriors), "Fury Warriors" (i.e. PvE DPS Warriors), and "Protection Warriors" (i.e. Tanking Warriors) and never (or rarely) the twain shall meet. If you spec deep into a tree, you are basically deciding how your class is going to play, or what your "virtual class" is. So, in WoW, your spec IS your class, in essence.
For our feat trees, we wanted something a bit different... we want decisions to matter, and for one to feel like they have an impact in their character's developement, however we do not want to change classes on a fundamental level. A Soldier should ALWAYS be able to tank/DPS/PvP in a general way as defined in the core class design, regardless of what points are spent where.
In that sense, having the Dark Templar feats as "Spells" and "Combos" with a mix of various utility, tweaks, and enhancements spread throughout makes for meaningful and interesting character development without sticking your character into a one-dimensional pigeon-holed role.
We also feel that having a shared Archetype tree where core role-based utility can reside helps facilite a feeling of being able to tweak, enhance, and learn character-specific abilities while also having easy access to core utility improvements on a general level.
I've been playing a new Dark Templar from scratch on beta recently to test out the feeling of the new feat trees, and honestly I like them a lot. They give me a feel of being able to tweak my character how I like, without making me feel like I "must" go into a specific tree. Of course people will ask, but I doubt you'll see: "LFM Depravity Dark Templar PST" type stuff... all the trees have cool things in them and "should" be equally viable in a wide range of situations. That is what makes our trees different from WoW and why a direct comparison isn't really possible.
Realistically, the end feats (of which there are 2 in every tree, with 4 "mid-tier" stand-alone feats in every tree as well) are things we have tried to design to be cool and fun, but never class-defining in a fundamental way. All the Dark Templar ones are arguably useful for various purposes in PvE Tanking, PvE DPS, and PvP. This isn't a situation where if you aren't Dread Shadow spec'd or Ravenous Eater spec'd you will suddenly find yourself unable to perform the various defined roles of a Dark Templar in the context of the game. Pick the ones that suit your playstyle and preference.
Just re-iterating what Jayde said. Feats are also not your only form of advancement as you need to decide how to spend your skill points, and what prestige class to take and other things as well. The new feat system simply hides all the stuff you get for "free" so its less confusing and makes it easy on the eye to choose new toys.
An On topic Dev Quote ^
Umm, I don't know exactly where you are getting such a high number, but (with no restrictions based on prerequisits, it would be impossible to calculate that with the information provided) every class will have roughly 4.36x10^47 different ways of choosing feats (if that 163 does not include multi-tier talents).
What level of math have you taken? this is a simple combinatorics questions (without going into much more depth based on prerequisits and which spec is considered "best"). Ultimately it is impossible to calculate how likely someone is to share a spec because we don't know any where near enough about the feat trees, what will be the best or most popular specs, how gear will influence spec, etc.
Rising Arms.
{{ Site | Forums | ">Recruitment }}
Rethaul, Dark Templar and squad leader of Scions of War
Absolutley!
Being left of things for not having the "build of the week" or whatever the flavour of the month is just stupid. I really like the options said above, and by all means it looks like this system is going to be awesome!
A little bit more information from Athelan:
Anyway I can't help noticing the phrase
So does this mean that the feat system is simply a cooler name of the WoW "Cookie-cutter-cheese" tree? I am very worried about this acually. What if you find a build you think is cool, and suddenly people start calling you "noob"(or worse) when you don't have that skill that does nothing exept help a little. Sites like this will be filled to the brink with "Ultimate Assasin spec" threads. Suddenly we don't have the choice anymore, if I don't take that skill I hate, nobody will group with me.
I remember being a shaman not having Mana tide totem... I've never been called noob so many times in my life
The feat system is both wider and deeper than that found in WoW with I think around 15+ general feats and 45ish class specific feats in the two trees. With some of these having multiple ranks etc there is going to be much more variation. Sure everyone will have something that works for them and tout it was being "best" but that won't be the case.
I ABSOLUELY LOVE the idea of doing away with "either you are healing spec or no group for you"
I was a paladin and oh holy god
I didnt mind much healing.. but the necessity drove me crazy
GREAT idea
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
As a real RPG fan, and someone who is not lazy to think, like 95% of MMO players today, I now consider AoC an MMO-Action game. This is not RPG, this is an insult to RPG.
Now, I was a huge fan of AoC, perhaps still am, but it's more likely I'll simply stop playing MMOs, than accept the fact, that there will be no more smart MMOs out there.
This is entirely the fault of the stupid idiot people. Period.
huh
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
those stupid idiot people, who don't have two brain cells to think, and cry to the industry developers to take away choice and depth, so they can achieve on the same level as us, savvy folk.huh
yes, I blame the f-tards.
huh
yes, I blame the f-tards.
huh
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
those stupid idiot people, who don't have two brain cells to think, and cry to the industry developers to take away choice and depth, so they can achieve on the same level as us, savvy folk.huh
yes, I blame the f-tards.
I are confused
Anyways, to my calculations. Or at least, a renewed attempt at making them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
163 * 4 = 652 (Archetype feat points overall)
163 * 14 * 2 = 4564 (Class Specific feat points overall)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
163 * 3 = 489 (Points available to the given class)
75 / 489 * 100 = %15.34... (Ideal percentage of players of same class being identical to you)
15.34 / 14 = %1.10... (Chance of another player being identical in feats)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 vs 32 fight (Hypothetical)
(64 - 1) * 0.011 * 100 = %69.3 (Ideal chance of meeting an identical player)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming that there are going to be more popular layouts, that could go either good (If you play a unique layout) or bad (If you play the more powerful layout).
From that I'll guess that you're about 5% likely to find an exact layout amongst 63 other players, if you have a unique layout. And well over 100% if you pick a popular one.
those stupid idiot people, who don't have two brain cells to think, and cry to the industry developers to take away choice and depth, so they can achieve on the same level as us, savvy folk.huh
yes, I blame the f-tards.
Funny, 'cause from what I seen on these forums, 95% of the players are asking for more intelligent games. Whereas there are all of these people like you pretending to be the righteous minority fighting against people who would try to corrupt the industry out of idiocy and spite. Ever notice that there are very few people on here preaching WoW's 'casual > complicated' gameplay? Want to know why not? Answer: It's because they don't care, I'm sure that they would all love some wonderfully complicated game if we could make it more available to them.Ever think that there might be some reason that MMO companies don't make complicated MMO's anymore other than there being more money in the casual market? Maybe they just don't care for us mere mortals, huh? Well, it came to me in a vision, maybe this 'wonderful' MMO we keep asking for isn't all that wonderful after all. As a matter of fact, I'm starting to see right through our magnificently convoluted plot. The game is flawed. Do you honestly think that you would actually be willing to spend hours upon hours every day to advance yourself in this complicated world of ours? Train yourself in your craft, build an empire, craft wonderful items, and do all this in a game that truly caters to a 'hard-core' audience? Let's face it a standard casual MMO consumes enough time as it is, there's no argument there. The only real difference between casual and hard-core is depth, and the deeper you want to dig, the longer it'll take to get to the bottom of that hole. Now, your average semi-reasonable, at least, MMOer would like a game with at least twice as much depth in their game. Now consider this, even if you are willing to still play this game, how many people with jobs, school, and/or social lives are going to play it? More appropriately are able to play it? Now take that number and figure this out. Is it enough people to justify the millions of dollars and man-hours, it would take to build and support that game? I don't see any profit at all down that road.
Hate to break it to you but idealism is too idealistic.
P.S. Do you really think that those who do want more casual games are asking for depth and choice to be taken away, instead of length? Or that they are doing so because they are less "savvy", as opposed to having less time? And lastly, do you think that just because you can waste hours and hours every day on some virtual world that you are "savvy"?
To first clear up my personal case, I am 21, go to university and work. I have about 1-2 hours a day max to spare to MMOs. I didn't play an MMO for 6 months now, when I stopped with DDO and AO. I define myself as a casual player, because that is how much I play, I fit in the casual category. However when I play, I like it to be challenging, and here's the catch. I'd like a game, where the time spent within doesn't equal the success you are having. This is why I utterly hate WoW, because that game is completely build on the afore-mentioned principle.
MMO companies don't make sophisticated MMOs, because they don't see the market, however I am farely sure there is a substantial market for a deep involving sandbox MMO. I easily see 400 k people willing to play such a game. It would simply have to be a revolution, that is all.
Doing away with grind in as many cases as possible is the start. This is what Vanguard messed up. They understood challenging as "time-consuming", and you are completely right, no-one wants that. A game needs to be made with quick level progression, cap within a month, I say, and concentrate on the end-game. Economy/politics/pvp and dynamic dungeons.
It is obvious, people want to jump in, play, jump out. It's the same with me, this is why I liked DDO so much, it was fast, action packed, tactical ... and yet, it had a deep character development system compared to any MMO out there.
Here's the important part: what developers mistake, and misunderstand. They think, just because people want it fast, they want it easy. Humans are not quite so, we want it challenging, but not tedious. It's a hard balance, and the industry is too rigid to succeed at this given time.
What I found with WoW, is that you level up pretty fast compared to other MMO's. That wasnt a problem, the leveling part of the game was what I had most of my fun doing. It was when I capped my level, that it got more time consuming for me. (To be successful you needed to spend alot of time, either LFG to do instances, or find a good raid guild, which you needed to be dedicated to participating in.)
Osahar Ismassri
Conscript of King's Guard
http://guild-of-kings-guard.com/