I guess to sum up, if you like colouring, play WoW, if you like crosswords play EvE.
I am sorry, but that is crap!
I have played both games and met both ends of the social spectrum in both. You can't tell me that you don't get the 'F U NOOB' on chat in EVE at all, it is just a lot less common as there are less people spread across a bigger space. I have met the guys that just hang in new player areas in high sec space prodding new players into attacks so they get blown away by the security forces, all for a cheap laugh.
At the other end of it i was in a guild in WoW and the oldest member was 73 and the average age was around the mid 30's. Conversation was bright, funny and they were great people to be around.
Every player in any game will settle to their own level along with other players of the same type, so don't stereotype every player of a certain game!
I don't think you understand what is ment by the bit you are quoting as you refer to chat. I agree with you about mature, fun guilds in WoW, I was in one myself. Your point about the "F U Noob" in chat is relevant too, it applies to all games, there's just no getting away with it. It is more predominant in WoW though because of a younger audience. You also get players hanging around newbie areas just for the chance of an easy kill, again happens in all games. Every player finds a game that they like and play it for there own reasons.
What is ment by the part you quoted was that to play WoW, you don't need to think/concentrate too hard. Point and click, that's all that is involved. Like I mentioned in my post, I like to do this when I want a relaxed evening after a hard day at work so that I don't have to think any more. Like colouring in a picture.
EvE on the other hand requires a lot more brain work, hence the reference to a crossword.
Originally posted by jason_webb Originally posted by cosy OMFG wake upall skills lvl5 in eve are over 10 000 training day's and over 420 m skill points and most player have 80-90 m sp the max lvl in frigate is still 5 lvl cruiser still 5 lvl if ppl dont understand that the only difference between a new player and a old player is that older can fly more ships and a new player can fly few but when they meet a old player and the same type of ships they have fair chances, that means specialize your skills (example my char have over 27m sp 81 skills and 36 to lvl 5) if u don't understand this basic thing, sry for u but GO AND PLAY WOW
You have just pretty much made the point in that post about the lower accessibility of the game!
I only know from playing the game myself that someone in a smaller ship can be just as useful as someone else in a battleship, BUT NEW PLAYERS DON'T!!! Unless a new player is very lucky to get a good corp to help them along in their choices or you spend hours reading up on game guides how the hell do you know what to specialise in anyway?
You cannot criticize new players for feeling a bit daunted with this game when they start as it can be very complex and there is really no argument about the fact that they will never catch up with veteran players, so shouting 'so what, you can only use fewer ships, live with it' doesn't really help.
This game will always be a 'niche' game on the whole without some radical changes, but those radical changes could ruin what is essentially a very good game. I think a couple of smaller changes to make the game that little more accessible would make all the difference.
a new dont need a corp he need information that means need to have sufficient interest for the game to ask players i remeber recording what my first corp mates explain to me on TS and them list again and again if any corp give a BS to a n00b to make pvp that ceo/corp is stupid BS for pvp after getting 1 year in eve how to specialize well asking a have one dude in TS yes he come from wow he understand 0 english even cant make the tutorial i spend almost 6 h on TS explaining him the game and after 2-3 weeks he kind don't ask stuff again he became mission runner u can say that 6 h is hell allot of time ofc but me and few friends have a help the n00b program and make teaching lessons like that guess what we canceled the project because most of n00bs dont wanna sing up on that
i make al the n00b that i get in the corp to train frigate and 5 and cruiser at 5 and go full t2 whit that ships and guess what one of that n00b was rating 600-800 k isk sanshas last year before the HP boost in a thorax the point is all off was n00b on time and only can fly a frigate and cruiser but we all need that frigate in pvp just need to fit a MWD and a scramble n00b are needed and welcome but they have to understand what role can get eve don't need to get easier for the n00b is natural selection eve is still gretting bigger and bigger none of actual player wanna se 10 000 more player whinning on forums about how hard the game is that will result in a massive spam of "can i have your staff" :DDDDDD
Originally posted by cosy a new dont need a corp he need information that means need to have sufficient interest for the game to ask players i remeber recording what my first corp mates explain to me on TS and them list again and again if any corp give a BS to a n00b to make pvp that ceo/corp is stupid BS for pvp after getting 1 year in eve how to specialize well asking a have one dude in TS yes he come from wow he understand 0 english even cant make the tutorial i spend almost 6 h on TS explaining him the game and after 2-3 weeks he kind don't ask stuff again he became mission runner u can say that 6 h is hell allot of time ofc but me and few friends have a help the n00b program and make teaching lessons like that guess what we canceled the project because most of n00bs dont wanna sing up on that
i make al the n00b that i get in the corp to train frigate and 5 and cruiser at 5 and go full t2 whit that ships and guess what one of that n00b was rating 600-800 k isk sanshas last year before the HP boost in a thorax the point is all off was n00b on time and only can fly a frigate and cruiser but we all need that frigate in pvp just need to fit a MWD and a scramble n00b are needed and welcome but they have to understand what role can get eve don't need to get easier for the n00b is natural selection eve is still gretting bigger and bigger none of actual player wanna se 10 000 more player whinning on forums about how hard the game is that will result in a massive spam of "can i have your staff" :DDDDDD
Again, you make the points for me;
1 - Everyone you mentioned were lucky enough to find you to give them guidance through the formative stages of the game, the question would have to be what they would have done if they were on their own.
2 - You have also displayed the elitist attitude that some new players are met with in the game via some players and corporations in that 'they are welcome to join the game, but they better know their place!'
Also, going back to Kyler and Tez;
1 - EVE may be a little more complex than most games, but at it's basic elements it isn't really 'hard' and to compare it as a 'crossword' compared to other MMO's is again just the elitist attitude that keeps players away. I mean, it isn't really that hard to select a location from a drop down menu to jump somewhere is it or to sit in space, point at a rock and click on your mining laser to grab some ore!! The complexities come into play in knowing which training routes to take or in setting up 0.0 raids, large scale mining ops or building corp structures and protecting them. On the other hand it can be a pretty complex operation to put together and co-ordinate a 20/40 man raid in WoW ensuring the right mix of skills and planning the attacks to maximise damage and minimise losses. It's all swings and roundabouts.
2 - On the training front, again you are right that there aren't any games that allow you to train two chars at the same time (that i know of), but they also don't take months to learn one skill to a max level. Again, other games will allow you to switch to training another char at any time so you can train those characters up at the same pace and don't have to leave one months behind the other.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Eve simply isnt that complex. The variety of modules you can fit on a ship is small. The variations in cap and cpu use etc dont count much, a nos is nos as far as game mechanics go. The ships make up in an optimal fleet is no different from class makeup in an optimal raid.
I think some people played wow on auto attack. The theorycrafting in wow is 100 times more sophisticated than anything you see in eve. Wow is the more complex game beyond the noobies spamming ironfroge with thier "im am leet" comments. Check out this forum for an example.
jason_webb i don't argue whit u jusy wanna show how things run well in eve u say how that ppl go on their own well imho many of them never payed the game
all skills lvl5 in eve are over 10 000 training day's and over 420 m skill points and most player have 80-90 m sp
the max lvl in frigate is still 5 lvl cruiser still 5 lvl
if ppl dont understand that the only difference between a new player and a old player is that older can fly more ships and a new player can fly few
but when they meet a old player and the same type of ships they have fair chances, that means specialize your skills (example my char have over 27m sp 81 skills and 36 to lvl 5)
if u don't understand this basic thing, sry for u but GO AND PLAY WOW
You have just pretty much made the point in that post about the lower accessibility of the game!
I only know from playing the game myself that someone in a smaller ship can be just as useful as someone else in a battleship, BUT NEW PLAYERS DON'T!!! Unless a new player is very lucky to get a good corp to help them along in their choices or you spend hours reading up on game guides how the hell do you know what to specialise in anyway?
You cannot criticize new players for feeling a bit daunted with this game when they start as it can be very complex and there is really no argument about the fact that they will never catch up with veteran players, so shouting 'so what, you can only use fewer ships, live with it' doesn't really help.
This game will always be a 'niche' game on the whole without some radical changes, but those radical changes could ruin what is essentially a very good game. I think a couple of smaller changes to make the game that little more accessible would make all the difference.
What i've found is you get two types of corps...
1. The new starting corps which have lots of people who never logon to their characters again, then they eventually go onto die.
2. The big corps where everyone is in 0.0 where as a noob i don't want to go yet, so you never really get to play with anyone in the corp unless they have a event and then the corp becomes a chat room.
In december with the graphics update i'm going to resub to the game and give it a go because my mate wants to also return to the game. So i used to play the game with him before and just find EVE much more fun when your playing with real life friends and being able to do missions and mining etc etc. together.
I don't think people expect to be flying battleships in a day or two. Its the feeling that nothing they do in game will shorten the wait. Nearly all other games you can log in and gain xp towards a level. Feeling like you had accomplished something and come closer to your goals. Not in Eve though. The game tells you how long you must wait and there isn't anything you can do about it. So if someone has a desire or goal of flying a battleship or any other long training ship... then yeah there is a good chance they will get bored and quit the game. Why would they want to pay months of subscription fees to "wait"? Yes, raising attributes shortens the training time, but they them selves take a large amount of time.
What he said. It's exactly that. For new players it seems like they are not doing anything at all, you can't gain XP as in other MMOs, so yeah - it feels painful.
This is exactly right and it is, imho, by far and away the the weakest part of EvE. I would go so far as to say this time based training is a semi design flaw. I say that because it does not fully account well for human psychology.
I understand all the reasons behind the system and don't disagree with them but I think the psychological effect is a very large barrier to new players. Mostly the problem is new players. It makes them feel helpless and progressionless. These are THE worst things a game can ever do. A feeling of helpless leads to inaction which will kill new players.
The people who stay with EvE generally do so because they took a long hard look at things things and set more economic based goals and view ships as tools. And avoid these feelings
If EvE didn't have so many other good things it would be a real problem. Fortunately quality products tend to hang on tenaciously and slowly snowball to success.
Personally I think it would be wise to allow the first couple of teirs or some number of skill points to be a hybrid of time based and effort base (use based or xp based doesn't matter). Enough to say work for interceptor or cruiser but not both and then its pure time based.
In the end skill points are important but ISK determine what and how you will fly just as much. Give players some feeling they can do something about skill points if they want then after some number of skill points have it be time based as the "elder game". In the end Eve is about resources and strategy etc. And this would still preserve the "no one will ever get all skills" if the cap is done correctly. But allow people to set some ship progression goals they can actually put work into, long enough to grasp the other world-based goals they can set.
This is exactly right and it is, imho, by far and away the the weakest part of EvE. I would go so far as to say this time based training is a semi design flaw. I say that because it does not fully account well for human psychology.
I understand all the reasons behind the system and don't disagree with them but I think the psychological effect is a very large barrier to new players. Mostly the problem is new players. It makes them feel helpless and progressionless. These are THE worst things a game can ever do. A feeling of helpless leads to inaction which will kill new players. The people who stay with EvE generally do so because they took a long hard look at things things and set more economic based goals and view ships as tools. And avoid these feelings
Take the simple idea that EVE is both a niche game, that the techology that is required for a single server philosophy needs a slow expansion to the playerbase so as to not outstip the real world tecnologies. This to me implies that while what you say is true, for EVE it is the perfect design for the game.
The game needs to grow, but should not suit most people, just some.
The game needs to grow, but should not suit most people, just some.
QFT; something that, I feel, causes problems is devs trying to make a game everything to everyone as opposed to picking a few things and sticking to them.
Eve aint any more complicated than any other mmo out there. You just need some knowledge on what to do/train/grind etc...
2nd
All you really need in Eve is patience, as things take a long time there. Used to play it for a few years ago and got bloody tired doing the mining/corp runs through a zillion gates, just to make a few isks.
and 3rd
You dont have a feeling of accomplishment in Eve. For the ones used to a little faster gameplay, in Eve it feels like your character advances in snailspeed, hardly that even. And that is coming from an Anarchy Online player who used 2 freaking years to play his character to max level.
Difference is that you always felt your character got stronger in AO, all the time. You dont do that in Eve. Atleast I didnt feel that the little time I spent ingame before ending my subscription and quitting the game. I really dont get it why people play Eve. My little brother(allthough little heh, he's 30 soon ) play it and apparently love it too. I just dont get him.
You will get it when you are behind enemy lines in deep 0.0 with your squad of ten people, looking for targets and being chased all the time. You are constantly in danger of getting shot and even if you hit no targets at all you have a gameplay with lots of fun. I spent 8 ours with several alliance-ops yesterday. It was awesome, the amount of adrenaline was incredible. Another cool thing was the trap for the pirates in on of our lowsec systems. I was the bait, waited half an hour for them to finally engage me. Called targets and opened a cyno. The pirates got wiped out entirely..
Things take more time in Eve, but are way more rewarding and thrilling due to the fact that at least i am never safe. There could always be some evil guys coming for me..
Yeah yeah...People say the pvp is quite good in this game. Thing is, I will probably have more fun watching paint dry than play my character to be sorta competitive in Eve. Its just plain boring pve wise.
Originally posted by slask777 Its just plain boring pve wise.
Thats mostly true, yes.
Btw. i started as a producer in eve. When i started training for pvp i could barely fly t1-frigates with t1-fitting. And i was and felt useful as a tackler and scout and experienced very thrilling pvp.
Now im doing the same in t2-frigs with t2-fitting. I reach higher speeds, i do less damage (!) and i am a bit more useful, but the basics didnt change at all.
The fight lasted for about 5 minutes until he finally was so bored of not hitting me at all that he stopped shooting and went the 40km to the gate in his ship and jumped out (that took him quite some time btw)...
Comments
I am sorry, but that is crap!
I have played both games and met both ends of the social spectrum in both. You can't tell me that you don't get the 'F U NOOB' on chat in EVE at all, it is just a lot less common as there are less people spread across a bigger space. I have met the guys that just hang in new player areas in high sec space prodding new players into attacks so they get blown away by the security forces, all for a cheap laugh.
At the other end of it i was in a guild in WoW and the oldest member was 73 and the average age was around the mid 30's. Conversation was bright, funny and they were great people to be around.
Every player in any game will settle to their own level along with other players of the same type, so don't stereotype every player of a certain game!
I don't think you understand what is ment by the bit you are quoting as you refer to chat. I agree with you about mature, fun guilds in WoW, I was in one myself. Your point about the "F U Noob" in chat is relevant too, it applies to all games, there's just no getting away with it. It is more predominant in WoW though because of a younger audience. You also get players hanging around newbie areas just for the chance of an easy kill, again happens in all games. Every player finds a game that they like and play it for there own reasons.
What is ment by the part you quoted was that to play WoW, you don't need to think/concentrate too hard. Point and click, that's all that is involved. Like I mentioned in my post, I like to do this when I want a relaxed evening after a hard day at work so that I don't have to think any more. Like colouring in a picture.
EvE on the other hand requires a lot more brain work, hence the reference to a crossword.
Does that make it a little clearer for you?
You have just pretty much made the point in that post about the lower accessibility of the game!
I only know from playing the game myself that someone in a smaller ship can be just as useful as someone else in a battleship, BUT NEW PLAYERS DON'T!!! Unless a new player is very lucky to get a good corp to help them along in their choices or you spend hours reading up on game guides how the hell do you know what to specialise in anyway?
You cannot criticize new players for feeling a bit daunted with this game when they start as it can be very complex and there is really no argument about the fact that they will never catch up with veteran players, so shouting 'so what, you can only use fewer ships, live with it' doesn't really help.
This game will always be a 'niche' game on the whole without some radical changes, but those radical changes could ruin what is essentially a very good game. I think a couple of smaller changes to make the game that little more accessible would make all the difference.
a new dont need a corp he need information that means need to have sufficient interest for the game to ask players i remeber recording what my first corp mates explain to me on TS and them list again and again
if any corp give a BS to a n00b to make pvp that ceo/corp is stupid BS for pvp after getting 1 year in eve
how to specialize well asking a have one dude in TS yes he come from wow he understand 0 english even cant make the tutorial i spend almost 6 h on TS explaining him the game and after 2-3 weeks he kind don't ask stuff again he became mission runner
u can say that 6 h is hell allot of time ofc but me and few friends have a help the n00b program and make teaching lessons like that guess what we canceled the project because most of n00bs dont wanna sing up on that
i make al the n00b that i get in the corp to train frigate and 5 and cruiser at 5 and go full t2 whit that ships and guess what one of that n00b was rating 600-800 k isk sanshas last year before the HP boost in a thorax
the point is all off was n00b on time and only can fly a frigate and cruiser but we all need that frigate in pvp just need to fit a MWD and a scramble
n00b are needed and welcome but they have to understand what role can get
eve don't need to get easier for the n00b is natural selection eve is still gretting bigger and bigger none of actual player wanna se 10 000 more player whinning on forums about how hard the game is that will result in a massive spam of "can i have your staff" :DDDDDD
BestSigEver :P
Again, you make the points for me;
1 - Everyone you mentioned were lucky enough to find you to give them guidance through the formative stages of the game, the question would have to be what they would have done if they were on their own.
2 - You have also displayed the elitist attitude that some new players are met with in the game via some players and corporations in that 'they are welcome to join the game, but they better know their place!'
Also, going back to Kyler and Tez;
1 - EVE may be a little more complex than most games, but at it's basic elements it isn't really 'hard' and to compare it as a 'crossword' compared to other MMO's is again just the elitist attitude that keeps players away. I mean, it isn't really that hard to select a location from a drop down menu to jump somewhere is it or to sit in space, point at a rock and click on your mining laser to grab some ore!! The complexities come into play in knowing which training routes to take or in setting up 0.0 raids, large scale mining ops or building corp structures and protecting them. On the other hand it can be a pretty complex operation to put together and co-ordinate a 20/40 man raid in WoW ensuring the right mix of skills and planning the attacks to maximise damage and minimise losses. It's all swings and roundabouts.
2 - On the training front, again you are right that there aren't any games that allow you to train two chars at the same time (that i know of), but they also don't take months to learn one skill to a max level. Again, other games will allow you to switch to training another char at any time so you can train those characters up at the same pace and don't have to leave one months behind the other.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Eve simply isnt that complex. The variety of modules you can fit on a ship is small. The variations in cap and cpu use etc dont count much, a nos is nos as far as game mechanics go. The ships make up in an optimal fleet is no different from class makeup in an optimal raid.
I think some people played wow on auto attack. The theorycrafting in wow is 100 times more sophisticated than anything you see in eve. Wow is the more complex game beyond the noobies spamming ironfroge with thier "im am leet" comments. Check out this forum for an example.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/
jason_webb i don't argue whit u jusy wanna show how things run well in eve
u say how that ppl go on their own well imho many of them never payed the game
BestSigEver :P
You have just pretty much made the point in that post about the lower accessibility of the game!
I only know from playing the game myself that someone in a smaller ship can be just as useful as someone else in a battleship, BUT NEW PLAYERS DON'T!!! Unless a new player is very lucky to get a good corp to help them along in their choices or you spend hours reading up on game guides how the hell do you know what to specialise in anyway?
You cannot criticize new players for feeling a bit daunted with this game when they start as it can be very complex and there is really no argument about the fact that they will never catch up with veteran players, so shouting 'so what, you can only use fewer ships, live with it' doesn't really help.
This game will always be a 'niche' game on the whole without some radical changes, but those radical changes could ruin what is essentially a very good game. I think a couple of smaller changes to make the game that little more accessible would make all the difference.
What i've found is you get two types of corps...
1. The new starting corps which have lots of people who never logon to their characters again, then they eventually go onto die.
2. The big corps where everyone is in 0.0 where as a noob i don't want to go yet, so you never really get to play with anyone in the corp unless they have a event and then the corp becomes a chat room.
In december with the graphics update i'm going to resub to the game and give it a go because my mate wants to also return to the game. So i used to play the game with him before and just find EVE much more fun when your playing with real life friends and being able to do missions and mining etc etc. together.
What he said. It's exactly that. For new players it seems like they are not doing anything at all, you can't gain XP as in other MMOs, so yeah - it feels painful.
This is exactly right and it is, imho, by far and away the the weakest part of EvE. I would go so far as to say this time based training is a semi design flaw. I say that because it does not fully account well for human psychology.I understand all the reasons behind the system and don't disagree with them but I think the psychological effect is a very large barrier to new players. Mostly the problem is new players. It makes them feel helpless and progressionless. These are THE worst things a game can ever do. A feeling of helpless leads to inaction which will kill new players.
The people who stay with EvE generally do so because they took a long hard look at things things and set more economic based goals and view ships as tools. And avoid these feelings
If EvE didn't have so many other good things it would be a real problem. Fortunately quality products tend to hang on tenaciously and slowly snowball to success.
Personally I think it would be wise to allow the first couple of teirs or some number of skill points to be a hybrid of time based and effort base (use based or xp based doesn't matter). Enough to say work for interceptor or cruiser but not both and then its pure time based.
In the end skill points are important but ISK determine what and how you will fly just as much. Give players some feeling they can do something about skill points if they want then after some number of skill points have it be time based as the "elder game". In the end Eve is about resources and strategy etc. And this would still preserve the "no one will ever get all skills" if the cap is done correctly. But allow people to set some ship progression goals they can actually put work into, long enough to grasp the other world-based goals they can set.
The game needs to grow, but should not suit most people, just some.
QFT; something that, I feel, causes problems is devs trying to make a game everything to everyone as opposed to picking a few things and sticking to them.
This!
1st off
Eve aint any more complicated than any other mmo out there. You just need some knowledge on what to do/train/grind etc...
2nd
All you really need in Eve is patience, as things take a long time there. Used to play it for a few years ago and got bloody tired doing the mining/corp runs through a zillion gates, just to make a few isks.
and 3rd
You dont have a feeling of accomplishment in Eve. For the ones used to a little faster gameplay, in Eve it feels like your character advances in snailspeed, hardly that even. And that is coming from an Anarchy Online player who used 2 freaking years to play his character to max level.
Difference is that you always felt your character got stronger in AO, all the time. You dont do that in Eve. Atleast I didnt feel that the little time I spent ingame before ending my subscription and quitting the game. I really dont get it why people play Eve. My little brother(allthough little heh, he's 30 soon
) play it and apparently love it too. I just dont get him.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
You will get it when you are behind enemy lines in deep 0.0 with your squad of ten people, looking for targets and being chased all the time. You are constantly in danger of getting shot and even if you hit no targets at all you have a gameplay with lots of fun. I spent 8 ours with several alliance-ops yesterday. It was awesome, the amount of adrenaline was incredible.
Another cool thing was the trap for the pirates in on of our lowsec systems. I was the bait, waited half an hour for them to finally engage me. Called targets and opened a cyno. The pirates got wiped out entirely..
Things take more time in Eve, but are way more rewarding and thrilling due to the fact that at least i am never safe. There could always be some evil guys coming for me..
Yeah yeah...People say the pvp is quite good in this game. Thing is, I will probably have more fun watching paint dry than play my character to be sorta competitive in Eve. Its just plain boring pve wise.
---
Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Thats mostly true, yes.
Btw. i started as a producer in eve. When i started training for pvp i could barely fly t1-frigates with t1-fitting. And i was and felt useful as a tackler and scout and experienced very thrilling pvp.
Now im doing the same in t2-frigs with t2-fitting. I reach higher speeds, i do less damage (!) and i am a bit more useful, but the basics didnt change at all.
And i still do stupid things:
Time: 11.11.2007 22:02:17
Character: Batolemaeus
Location: Y6-HPG
My Weapons Used
75mm Gatling Rail II
Enemies Attacked
abzatzz [SPSO]<PA>(Sleipnir)
Damage Done: 2613,30
Damage Received: 645,10
The fight lasted for about 5 minutes until he finally was so bored of not hitting me at all that he stopped shooting and went the 40km to the gate in his ship and jumped out (that took him quite some time btw)...
Was funny though..