Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why are MMORPGs getting worse and worse?
Talemire
Member UncommonPosts: 843
I started gaming when Dark Age of Camelot first made its way on to the shelves, and man did I like that game. Even though I was tanking with a Druid and having fun not knowing what the heck I was doing, I felt like there was always something to do or learn (was 16 years old at the time). I was actually OK with mashing buttons to get skill chains off, because most of them were positional and required strategy. I played long enough to roam Darkness Falls, and even level up a few artifacts. There was just a lot to do, and even doing a few things repetatively never got boring.
What in the world happened to that sense of adventure I used to have? I'm just using DAoC as an example because it not only was my first MMORPG, but it was a really good one. This was late 2001, before all of these new engines came out. Yea, technology was getting better and better, but what about ideas? Having tried just about all of the MMORPGs that came out, I've yet to really see something new. Not to sound like a DAoC fanboy or anything, but dang, I've thought about revisiting childhood due to these new games being so non-innovative.
I don't know about my readers or fellow MMORPG connoisseurs, but I think a lot of online gaming companies are still missing the point. They are putting so much thought and allowing so much regulation in game, that they have been simply going around in circles for the past 7 years. Maybe I should be behind a desk helping create these games (actually, that is my goal after completing college 
), because to me the concept is very simple:
Old New
Skill-mashing combat Twitch combat
Linear character dev. Dynamic character dev.
Block/dodge by chance Block/dodge by action
Critical hit by chance Critical hit by where you aim
These are just a few (very few) of what I have to throw on the table. Why anyone hasn't "gotten the picture" yet is beyond me. Well, I guess that's that for now fellow gamers 
God Bless 
Comments
My guess would be for two reasons.
The first being technical and that twitch combat is incredibly hard to do well with any sort of network lag or latency.
The second reason is that while twitch combat might seem like the much better option to you, there is no guarantee that it appeals to everyone. For example I enjoy FPS single player games but I also happen to enjoy RPGs like Neverwinter Nights and I think a twitch style combat would actualy detract from what I enjoy about that game. I actually like the change in focus in gameplay from FPS to RPG to RTS
While I'm all for more diverse paths with characters (because not every game of old was Linear in its path I think thats perhaps a limitation in your gaming choices) the moment twitch combat comes into an MMORPG game ... I'm quitting. Lag alone is a good reason to keep twitch combat to FPS games where there's no risk other than maybe a point (unless your a tournament player). Having played UO during its opening days and during the days of 14.4k I can tell you that being killed because you lagged out by another player or their speed was several times faster utimilately sucked and the idea you'd pay for such torture is beyond me.
In away going to twitch combat pretty much nullifies the need for dynamic character development since everything would then be based on your ability to do things fast with your hands..thus eliminating a huge population of MMO players. Twitch is best left to Niche MMOs and FPS games.
While MMO's did do a slight back track with the Creation of WoW I think this is perhaps a good thing. Now there's more than one game type example of a formula that works. It also means more companies are willing to throw money out to make an MMO (which increases the chance alot of those new choices Suck complete ass but increases the chance a few realy really really good ones come out of it) . Still Twitch combat = bad for MMOs from not only a player standpoint but a techincal one. The amount of constant data that'll get have to be constantly passed around for hundreds of thousands of players on just one server would just make it to risky of huge packet drops as well. In FPS games you have far less players at one time on a 'instance' but MMO's don't work that way except in instanced areas.
Anyway this is a rambling its to late at night to make my argument completely sound right but whatever. Take it from a programmer...if we were all on real time servers and everyone could have the exact same speed no matter where they were at .. Twitch combat might be more realistic. But I still wouldn't play it. I'd rather think with my brain then worry about if i can move my hands fast enough (which would be completely unfair to populaces of older players, much younger players, the inexperienced, and the handicapped players).
OK rambling opposition over.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Some good thoughts there Talemire, Funcom with AoC can tick a couple of your New list off, its combat is semi twitch but not fully fledged, and you can aim directional attacks in real time althought its still partially calculated on environment effects and such like. However, with dynamic character development still unsure, and Funcom have stated that the tech isn't there for active real time blocking yet, so its still roll of the dice type. But atleast they are trying to be different! I would expect games to include what you have put down properly in a couple of years time.
DEVS play videogames to, but thats right, you've got more experience and knowledge then a person thats been working in the videogame industrie for years and probably own every single console ever created, and played them before you were born...
keep on dreaming
mmo is like ecstasy, the first time is always the best
I haven't visited this site in ages and mostly because MMO's have gone down hill considerably over the years. But it wasn't the combat that has disappointed me so much as the lack of creativity, artistic appeal and detail that has driven me away from countless MMORPGs. I'm a big fan of a good storyline with excellent detail and environment to back it up. All things should stem from the storyline including the combat, because the story in some way should be the driving force behind the combat (and all other aspects of the game) and when the story is lacking or unconvincing I simply feel unmotivated to play.
I was a big fan of what Black Isle Entertainment did with the Baldur's Gate series back in the day, and definitely loved Looking Glass Studios' Thief series, and practically anything Ion Storm worked on prior to their breaking up. And all of these things have something in common - great driving storylines that ultimately improve the quality of the game, further motivating the player to PLAY! I haven't seen this in an MMORPG in a long time...
Its starting to change, just be patient.
I wouldn't say MMOs are getting "worse and worse". Many have improved a great deal over the last 5 years. A lot of the games we take for granted today would have been viewed in an entirely different light 10 years ago.
One of the main problems is that core MMO gamers have become pretty jaded over the last few years as we have endured a massive amount of poorly made western games and derivative Asian games.
So thats pretty much it. It is (people that don't know better and pay for a game thats a copy cat) and it isnt (people crying for something bold and new) the players fault in this situation. We need to stop being fed WoW like exp bars... grind fests... levels.... boring, uninspired, dialog box invested, kill x of y, quests... no objective pvp... gear based games. We need to shout for innovative ideas. This genre needs to be stirred a bit!
K enough of the negative, heres what should be happening:
Quests: Quests should be an effect of the game environment and done for fun or because you want to, not because you need to. What do i mean? Picture this example: Player town A and player town b has NPC caravans trading common supplies from one another. Players from town a hunt a specific humanoid mob in the nearby woods just for the heck of it. That mob becomes aggressive and attacks people on site, including NPCS. A caravan gets attacked and a npc from that caravan runs (via advanced pathfinding) into the town screaming bloody murder pleading for help. Bingo quest.
Gear: Gear should be made by crafters only, period. Not dropped by bats... perhaps by humanoids (but only what they are wielding not some UBER thing). The only thing that should be on a weapon is decay, the type of weapon, the speed (dependant on weight and what its made of) and a very small damage modifier. Nothing else. But they should come in all shapes, sizes, colors. uses, etc. Which leads me to skills...
Skills: Yes not level based game..... SKILL. You use a sword.. you get better at it. You dont use it for quite some time... you start forgetting that skill. But the better you get at a weapon the more forms/ styles of swordplay you can use. But swords arent the onyl thing for skill.... magic too.
Magic: Should be in depth. And for balance/realism (go read an eragon book) it should be based off your stamina.. so ninja wizards arent running all over the place. (yes running off of stamina too) Magic should be able to be experimented. Fire and wind mixed together should make smoke.... you get the picture.
I'll stop here for now... as i want to see other peoples thoughts on the thread...
just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Those single player RPG's were great, but I've yet to see anything like them in an MMORPG. Funny thing is.... now that some companies are trying to put them in (I think Bioware has vowed to do it in their new game) people bemoan the fact that they'll make MMORPG's too linear, and not enough of a player driven sand-box world.
Guess you can't please everyone.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So thats pretty much it. It is (people that don't know better and pay for a game thats a copy cat) and it isnt (people crying for something bold and new) the players fault in this situation. We need to stop being fed WoW like exp bars... grind fests... levels.... boring, uninspired, dialog box invested, kill x of y, quests... no objective pvp... gear based games. We need to shout for innovative ideas. This genre needs to be stirred a bit!
K enough of the negative, heres what should be happening:
Quests: Quests should be an effect of the game environment and done for fun or because you want to, not because you need to. What do i mean? Picture this example: Player town A and player town b has NPC caravans trading common supplies from one another. Players from town a hunt a specific humanoid mob in the nearby woods just for the heck of it. That mob becomes aggressive and attacks people on site, including NPCS. A caravan gets attacked and a npc from that caravan runs (via advanced pathfinding) into the town screaming bloody murder pleading for help. Bingo quest.
Gear: Gear should be made by crafters only, period. Not dropped by bats... perhaps by humanoids (but only what they are wielding not some UBER thing). The only thing that should be on a weapon is decay, the type of weapon, the speed (dependant on weight and what its made of) and a very small damage modifier. Nothing else. But they should come in all shapes, sizes, colors. uses, etc. Which leads me to skills...
Skills: Yes not level based game..... SKILL. You use a sword.. you get better at it. You dont use it for quite some time... you start forgetting that skill. But the better you get at a weapon the more forms/ styles of swordplay you can use. But swords arent the onyl thing for skill.... magic too.
Magic: Should be in depth. And for balance/realism (go read an eragon book) it should be based off your stamina.. so ninja wizards arent running all over the place. (yes running off of stamina too) Magic should be able to be experimented. Fire and wind mixed together should make smoke.... you get the picture.
I'll stop here for now... as i want to see other peoples thoughts on the thread...
just my two cents.
Good post, I agree
So thats pretty much it. It is (people that don't know better and pay for a game thats a copy cat) and it isnt (people crying for something bold and new) the players fault in this situation. We need to stop being fed WoW like exp bars... grind fests... levels.... boring, uninspired, dialog box invested, kill x of y, quests... no objective pvp... gear based games. We need to shout for innovative ideas. This genre needs to be stirred a bit!
K enough of the negative, heres what should be happening:
Quests: Quests should be an effect of the game environment and done for fun or because you want to, not because you need to. What do i mean? Picture this example: Player town A and player town b has NPC caravans trading common supplies from one another. Players from town a hunt a specific humanoid mob in the nearby woods just for the heck of it. That mob becomes aggressive and attacks people on site, including NPCS. A caravan gets attacked and a npc from that caravan runs (via advanced pathfinding) into the town screaming bloody murder pleading for help. Bingo quest.
Gear: Gear should be made by crafters only, period. Not dropped by bats... perhaps by humanoids (but only what they are wielding not some UBER thing). The only thing that should be on a weapon is decay, the type of weapon, the speed (dependant on weight and what its made of) and a very small damage modifier. Nothing else. But they should come in all shapes, sizes, colors. uses, etc. Which leads me to skills...
Skills: Yes not level based game..... SKILL. You use a sword.. you get better at it. You dont use it for quite some time... you start forgetting that skill. But the better you get at a weapon the more forms/ styles of swordplay you can use. But swords arent the onyl thing for skill.... magic too.
Magic: Should be in depth. And for balance/realism (go read an eragon book) it should be based off your stamina.. so ninja wizards arent running all over the place. (yes running off of stamina too) Magic should be able to be experimented. Fire and wind mixed together should make smoke.... you get the picture.
I'll stop here for now... as i want to see other peoples thoughts on the thread...
just my two cents.
The problem with all of that is its all your opinion based on your taste. Some of it is also limited by current available tech.
None of that ensures a non-copy game. (I think you are somewhat off on that accessment also, I don't think DDO, TR or HG "copy" any exsisting MMO in a broad sense but I really don't get what you are getting at with how you see "inovation" anyway.) You are calling for more dynamic inovation but then list a bunch of things that already exist in a way you would like to see it. To say HG is like WoW mixed with GW you may as well say American Football is like Rugby mixed with soccer. Yeah they are similar but vastly different games.
MMO's have much baser issues.
MMO gaming has not made the impact it could have for a a few basic reasons.
Specific mechanics (like how magic, crafting or gear works) are not the problem, those are preference issues.
What "should be happening" is MMORPG's need to be more like RPG's and not "fantasy stat manager 2.0" as they are currently moving toward. I believe something like your "quest system" is coming in Guild Wars 2.
Spellborn will be out soon and it will not be catering to the ADD kids, the masses, which is what so many developers are trying to do because they all want to be as successful as WoW., but they are going about it the wrong way. Copying WoW will not lead to success, being innovative will. Greed breeds ignorance.
DAOC was one of my first favorites. It forced socializing if you will because to level the best exp was grouped. You ended up meeting some great individuals/friends which to me are a huge importance in online games. Yes it was adventurous and very dangerous in same area's but that made it fun. I gave WOW about a 2 year run and i was bored after about a year. I played this MMO and that one then said what the heck lets to back to my old DAOC stomping grounds.
I leveled a toon to max level in i think 4 days. Back when the game came out it took me probably 6 weeks if not more to hit 50 with any toon. There was no social atmosphere. Speed classes once vitaly important were replaced by hasteners and mounts. Leveling was so easy it was simply boring. Why are they getting worse? I'll answer that easy. Game developers are just cloning much like the lack of creativity with television and movies. They made movies of all the ledgendary old TV shows because they didn't have any good ideas to make something unique. WOW was successful but just a very polished version of games that set the way in the MMORPG like DAOC, EQ.
Another thing is if you have websites like thottbot ie: example for WOW that had ever item and quest spelled out for you, you didn't have to adventure at all. I liked the fact that levels meant something and they were a challenge to obtain. Now they are brainless so charachter development is brainless as well. Cookie cutter mentality stinks but is the way of the game now. I liked having to think about how to spec.. One weekend in DAOC after i came back i scored like 16 respec stones one day raiding.You used to have to think what you were going to do very carefully before making a choice. I respecced like no tommorrow. Again that having to think wisely was removed from most games.
I honestly dont see much future. I'm a gamer at heart but i dont see anything in the year or next year that is much different then the reruns everybody is playing now.
Would've been great to see a DAOC 2, minus the horrible PvE. Use the same RvR setup and add the potential to invade enemy realms, use the same class/spec system and just expand on it, use the same combat system and just fix all the problems...
Even battleground PvP was a ton of fun in that game. In the end though, the tedious/pointless/mindless level grind is what drove me away. If you could remove that and the gear grind and add to the RvR concept you'd have a winner.
Those single player RPG's were great, but I've yet to see anything like them in an MMORPG. Funny thing is.... now that some companies are trying to put them in (I think Bioware has vowed to do it in their new game) people bemoan the fact that they'll make MMORPG's too linear, and not enough of a player driven sand-box world.
Guess you can't please everyone.
Were it up to me I wouldn't have it so that the direction the story were to take was beyond the control of the players, I'm simply saying that the complexity and detail of the story should be absolute and well enough developed to create real motivation for the actions of the players (so it felt like something worth being involved in rather than a good way to kill a few hours). Promote the aspects of an MMORPG that make it worth playing while maintaining that all these things stem form the storyline. Of course absolute player control can result in chaos, some is absolutely necessary.
MMORPGs are getting worse and worse cause all of the devs for some reason think that copying WoW = succefull MMOG,most of the new devs and old ones aswell dont have any original ideas,it's like they lost all of their imagination.
Another thing is that allmost all of the mmo market is saturated with fantasy mmos with elfs.Actualy from what ive played,the only mmogs that dont copy or try to copy WoW is GW (if you consider it a mmo,I do),eve online,auto assault (R.I.P) and pre-CU SWG,also from upcoming mmos AoC looks to be trying to bring something inovating and aeon.
Something else to take note is the fact that alot of players are tired of the same old kill 10x creatures quests and the repetive grind.What im saying is ,that 95% of the curent mmo market is saturated with linear mmos.Why do devs focus on linear mmos,well because it's easyer to produce a scripted enviroment than one that reacts and bends to the will of the players.A good exemple of a great sandbox mmo was pre-CU SWG (note ,curent SWG is a linear mmo due to the NGE and also is a atempt at a sci-fi WoW).The current best sandbox mmo (it's got no competition anyway) is EvE online.
Soo if devs want their mmo to be succefull,make your own ideas and dont copy/inspire from someone else's ideas,take the risk of trying something new.Curently sci-fi/sandbox mmos are what is needed on the market.
IMO it's not the MMOs, it's us. Vets are jaded. People new to the genre are still having a blast. The games are MUCH better than the originals, we're just to critical and want everything to be new again. You can reinvent the genre and you can't go back to your first time. Enjoy the games and stop fucking crying all the damn time.
This ends my post from a member of the happy satisfied minority. Feel free to dismiss it and resume your bitching.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Yeah it's not the seller/merchant/trader etc's fault... it's the customers fault.
Hey im selling cherry flavored poison but it isnt actualy cherry flavored it's more like dirt flavored,but our customers arent buying it,our product is fine in our opinion soo it's the customer's fault!
Yeah it's not the seller/merchant/trader etc's fault... it's the customers fault.
Hey im selling cherry flavored poison but it isnt actualy cherry flavored it's more like dirt flavored,but our customers arent buying it,our product is fine in our opinion soo it's the customer's fault!
I try to avoid calling anyone stupid on this site.....How did you pick SOE? I've played games from practically every publisher that exsists and am not currently playing anything from SOE. I like games. I don't play the ones I grow tired of or don't care for.
Stupid of me to reply... Don't have to justify myself. Stated my opinion and done.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
Yeah it's not the seller/merchant/trader etc's fault... it's the customers fault.
Hey im selling cherry flavored poison but it isnt actualy cherry flavored it's more like dirt flavored,but our customers arent buying it,our product is fine in our opinion soo it's the customer's fault!
I try to avoid calling anyone stupid on this site.....How did you pick SOE? I've played games from practically every publisher that exsists and am not currently playing anything from SOE. I like games. I don't play the ones I grow tired of or don't care for.
Stupid of me to reply... Don't have to justify myself. Stated my opinion and done.
Maibe it's the fact that it was stated by a SOE employ that there isnt something wrong with their games but that there is something wrong with the customer.Well anyway,it's probably the most stupid/retarded/idiotic reason that anyone could come up with for a product failing to sell.(no accusing you of being stupid/retarded/idiotic).
Are mmos getting worse and worse or is it simply a lack of quality and varied releases? If you look at a console you don't bemoan every release that comes along- you wait for that quality release that will blow you away. So, while there are mmos that maybe embracing all this twitch gaming, there maybe also releases that will embrace other appeals.
Yeah it's not the seller/merchant/trader etc's fault... it's the customers fault.
Hey im selling cherry flavored poison but it isnt actualy cherry flavored it's more like dirt flavored,but our customers arent buying it,our product is fine in our opinion soo it's the customer's fault!
I try to avoid calling anyone stupid on this site.....How did you pick SOE? I've played games from practically every publisher that exsists and am not currently playing anything from SOE. I like games. I don't play the ones I grow tired of or don't care for.
Stupid of me to reply... Don't have to justify myself. Stated my opinion and done.
Maibe it's the fact that it was stated by a SOE employ that there isnt something wrong with their games but that there is something wrong with the customer.Well anyway,it's probably the most stupid/retarded/idiotic reason that anyone could come up with for a product failing to sell.(no accusing you of being stupid/retarded/idiotic).
Product not selling? The MMO genre has grown huge since the "good old days". Perceptions change. If you think your perception is the same and the whole genre is going down the toilet all while more new people join the genre and the games get more polished and build on previous games.... well anything I say to persuade you otherwise will be met with the same petty dismissive attitude.If the current lineup of games had been available when I started MMOs in 1999, I'd have loved it.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
I'm sick and tired of the old-style MMORPG. I think it is just a result of a natural process that happens when you've played a certain type of game for some while (years). You start to compare the "new" games with the ones you've already played (especially with the first game you Loved), and you see that there is not much new in the "New". It's just Ew...
However, I'm having a BLAST in Tabula Rasa! It is more of a twich style game drawing heavily on the FPS experience (aiming, chaos battlefield, placement, taking cover, range) and combining it with MMORPG elements (storyline, missions, persistant world, grouping, different mobs have different resistances). To me Tabula Rasa feels like a 2008 version of Anarchy Online combined with Battlefield FPS. it is nothing like any MMORPG I've played thus far (started playing MMOs about 14 years ago), and the gameplay isnt boxed into the "vision" (tm) of what a real MMORPG should be like. I simply love it so far!
Overall, I would rate the quality of MMO's as better than other games.
I have had a lot of fun in 6 out 7 of the MMO's I have played. While I enjoyed the first MMO I played the most, in retrospect, it was not better than some of the later MMO's I played.
In comparision, about 10% of games in a game shop actually interest me, and of those that I purchase 50% are disappointing.
Only a small percentage of books, games or movies published every year are "best sellers". Why should MMO's be any different?
Twitch combat and "react to block" is not new. It has been in single player games for many years. It has also been implemented in multi-player first person shooter games on local servers. However, none of the MMO's (including WOW) have local servers. At best, for English speaking players there are servers in both Europe and USA. People complain about the lag on same continent (eg. east coast USA players on west coast servers). One of the reasons I do not lke pvp is because there is 200 ms latency from here to west coast USA, about 300 ms to Europe. Twitch play is not going to work at those latencies. There are additional runnning costs for companies running servers in more than one location. In addition, peak playing time is different for dfferent timezones such as America, Europe and Australia. A single server could cover 3 continents in different timezones without overloading the server as people in different timezones play at different times. Whereas a local server for local players may be full at peak time and under utilized at other times. The speed of light is finite, internet "traffic" is increasing and the speed of internet routers is finite, so there is a limit to how much latencies can improve. There are a lot of technical challenges that would need to be solved for "twitch" play to work in an international MMO.
Also, not everyone likes "twitch" play and some "twitch" games are a "click fest".
im more interested in seeing Console/PC action games becoming bigger if you feel what I am saying. I want for FPS games to get bigger (hit 150+ players) and become more persistant. that is where the innovation will come from- other genres
I really loved many coop RPGs and single player RPGs. im more interested in seeing their scope expand to become more MMOish. for instance, I like how neverwinter nights allowed players to run their own persistant worlds
My guess would be for two reasons.
The first being technical and that twitch combat is incredibly hard to do well with any sort of network lag or latency.
The second reason is that while twitch combat might seem like the much better option to you, there is no guarantee that it appeals to everyone. For example I enjoy FPS single player games but I also happen to enjoy RPGs like Neverwinter Nights and I think a twitch style combat would actualy detract from what I enjoy about that game. I actually like the change in focus in gameplay from FPS to RPG to RTS
Word. The second twitch combat is in, I am out. I already have carpal tunnel, very much uninterested in making it worse.Linna