All of you need to actually go back and play your first MMO. Your collective memories are shot. I'd love to get the same sensation as when I first discovered MMOs and played EQ, but it's not going to happen.
Ah there's your problem. You started with EQ. A content grind/pixel-crack centered game. I started with UO. Say what you will about open PvP... it's static and it keeps the game fresh.
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR Playing: WAR Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
All of you need to actually go back and play your first MMO. Your collective memories are shot. I'd love to get the same sensation as when I first discovered MMOs and played EQ, but it's not going to happen.
Ah there's your problem. You started with EQ. A content grind/pixel-crack centered game. I started with UO. Say what you will about open PvP... it's static and it keeps the game fresh.
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I've read only the first page of this topic because i don't have the time to read the other pages. Has anyone ever thought of what the outcome of a MMO made by Lionhead would be? I have thoroughly enjoyed all their games, except "The Movies", Fable and Black&White seem to have the freedom i have craved in games.
I am waiting for Age of Conan and i hope it will live up to my expectations.
I hope Lionhead would make an MMO, id love to see the reaction of players.
MMORPGs aren't getting worse and worse. They are becoming more stable, more polished, and reaching a wider audience. Yes, there have been hiccups.. bad launches, good games changed and/or closed down... But overall, the market for MMORPG games has exploded; no longer limited to a niche market with only a few titles, MMORPGs are a major industry and more and more games are released and being developed that offer varied experience for all types of MMORPG gamers. If that isn't moving forward, I don't know what is.
what you call moving forward is actually many steps backwards! It is alot easier to "polish" a game when you have taken away tons of content instead of adding more. take WoW, it has literally 1 tenth of the immersion of first generation MMO's. sure it is polished as hell. Yet it also stripped bare of immersion.
What it does it does well no doubt, but its omissions are to the point. The idea that they cannot polish a game with tons of immersionn would also be a silly one. Never let companies get away with as little as possible while overcharging us for it. (All the companies used to blatanly admit before they released games that they would charge as much as the could get away with. Add to that in blizzards case of charging a ridiculous 25 dollars to move a character along with other eye popping charges and its clear that greed drives them over everything else.)
MMo's are indeed getting worse now that the precedent has been set that "dumbing" a game down is the way to riches. Many of us from the early days of MMO's want new generation games to double and triple immersion not what they are doing now. While I admit WoW is fun for a time I constanly find myself sighing at the sad and truly uninspired brain dead approach it takes to crafting as well as the complete omission of virtual reality aspects.
Then again this proves what I have said for years. people on this planet, esp from what I see in the US are increasingly less intelligent. Thus the mass appeal of such games. Baldurs Gate online might me nice ...might!
This was essentially my point in my earlier posts. The MMORPGs of today are simply lacking in their depth. They are very lacking in creativity. I couldn't agree more!
All of you need to actually go back and play your first MMO. Your collective memories are shot. I'd love to get the same sensation as when I first discovered MMOs and played EQ, but it's not going to happen.
Ah there's your problem. You started with EQ. A content grind/pixel-crack centered game. I started with UO. Say what you will about open PvP... it's static and it keeps the game fresh.
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I think thats a valid point and I've never heard a good argument against it. Why is it that you can play one FPS game after another, all of them being very similar, yet you don't get bored with the genre? Why are MMORPG's the only genre where most of us get bored after our first MMO? My theory?
Game Play
Most other game genres either have very engaging, challenging game play, or they have very strategic game play. Sure, theres still some system of achievements and rewards, but the game play is entertaining enough to stand on it's on. Even if there was no leader board in an FPS game you'd still have fun playing.
On the other hand, what would happen if we took any of the current, top MMO's and removed the levels, gear, and money? Aside from the role players, who else would still play the game? My guess is, almost no one. With out achievements and rewards, MMO's are almost worthless because the game play is weak. In nearly every MMO ever made, the game play is neither twitchy nor strategic, rather, it's some type of bastardized mix of the two thats designed so that even a retarded monkey could play AND be successful.
Not to mention, theres the old, archaic notion that if the game has "RPG" in the title it means everything has to be about your "avatar". No one wants to spend hundreds of hours maxing their character only to be outdone by a newer player thats actually good at the game, right? What we end up with then, is auto-mode game play thats not engaging or challenging or even that entertaining. The only thing that keeps you coming back is the carrot: that next level, that next piece of gear, that next bit of gold...You rarely log on and go out just to play the game. Sure, plenty of people claim they do, but how many would stick around if you removed all the carrots?
I'd say, after World of Warcraft was released and was/is a huge hit, more and more companies see that there are loads of money to be made in this gaming genre. This is why there are so many worthless MMO (not counting the Korean ones) releases all the time.
Currently the only new concepts for an MMO I've seen in many years are PoTS and WAR.
[center][color=darkorange][b}Wow! Much gold. So amaze![/b][/color][/center]
All of you need to actually go back and play your first MMO. Your collective memories are shot. I'd love to get the same sensation as when I first discovered MMOs and played EQ, but it's not going to happen.
Ah there's your problem. You started with EQ. A content grind/pixel-crack centered game. I started with UO. Say what you will about open PvP... it's static and it keeps the game fresh.
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I think thats a valid point and I've never heard a good argument against it. Why is it that you can play one FPS game after another, all of them being very similar, yet you don't get bored with the genre? Why are MMORPG's the only genre where most of us get bored after our first MMO? My theory?
Game Play
Most other game genres either have very engaging, challenging game play, or they have very strategic game play. Sure, theres still some system of achievements and rewards, but the game play is entertaining enough to stand on it's on. Even if there was no leader board in an FPS game you'd still have fun playing.
On the other hand, what would happen if we took any of the current, top MMO's and removed the levels, gear, and money? Aside from the role players, who else would still play the game? My guess is, almost no one. With out achievements and rewards, MMO's are almost worthless because the game play is weak. In nearly every MMO ever made, the game play is neither twitchy nor strategic, rather, it's some type of bastardized mix of the two thats designed so that even a retarded monkey could play AND be successful.
Not to mention, theres the old, archaic notion that if the game has "RPG" in the title it means everything has to be about your "avatar". No one wants to spend hundreds of hours maxing their character only to be outdone by a newer player thats actually good at the game, right? What we end up with then, is auto-mode game play thats not engaging or challenging or even that entertaining. The only thing that keeps you coming back is the carrot: that next level, that next piece of gear, that next bit of gold...You rarely log on and go out just to play the game. Sure, plenty of people claim they do, but how many would stick around if you removed all the carrots?
You also have to consider that the consequences with MMORPGs are higher than with FPS. There's never a monthly fee with a FPS. So if the game tanks then you lose the initial investment if you don't attempt to resell and that's it. However, when playing an MMORPG there's always a monthly fee attached to it making your expectations for the quality of the game higher. Now considering this with respect to level grinding/boring gameplay that lacks in depth and motivation to play you get a lot players losing interest in a genre. Especially when all the current devs are attempting to use the same formula hoping to experience the solution of success when the winning formula (in most dev's eyes this is WoW) was a one time lucky shot in the dark. And that's how it has to be treated.
Well, if they're willing to settle for mediocre game play, just because it's safe, then we're always going to have this issue. People will get bored after their first MMO and won't stick around very long for any MMO after that. Been there done that. You can slap a new skin on it as many times as you want, but if it's still the same game play and the same predictable AI, then...
You know this is true. They are getting worse and worse. The old MMOS are getting boring. The New, nothing captivating. Warhammer looked like it had potential but the BETA proved me wrong. Conan, no idea what's gonna hapen here, but it will be the same countless grind. I think i'm gonna do myself a favor and quit MMO's for awhile and play Call of Duty 4 or something that doesn't feel like a boring, pointless grind.
I think developers are not delivering, providing, and creating what players WANT:
1) Immersion in a world; 2) character customization; 3) Questing that is fun and tasking that is fun.
Instead, they give us 1) raiding, 2) PvPing, 3) repetitive "Questing" that is really tasking; 4) worlds without authentic immersion; 5) faction grinds; 6) crafting grinds; 7) "looking for group" or "looking for more"; 8) drama caused by raid guilds.
People want community. Raid guilds, it is my theory, undermine community.
----- WoW and fast food = commercial successes. I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
All of you need to actually go back and play your first MMO. Your collective memories are shot. I'd love to get the same sensation as when I first discovered MMOs and played EQ, but it's not going to happen.
Ah there's your problem. You started with EQ. A content grind/pixel-crack centered game. I started with UO. Say what you will about open PvP... it's static and it keeps the game fresh.
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I think thats a valid point and I've never heard a good argument against it. Why is it that you can play one FPS game after another, all of them being very similar, yet you don't get bored with the genre? Why are MMORPG's the only genre where most of us get bored after our first MMO? My theory?
FPS games have what I call the "quickie" effect. You play a FPS (let's say Counter-Strike) with no real long-term goals and many short term ones that can be achieved in a very short amount of time. These things include: killing x number of players, saving up x amount of money to buy a gun to kill x number of players, be the top on your team. With these sub-conscious goals in mind, you can get the "Wow, I win" feeling when you quickly accomplish these goals. And even if you don't, you can quickly move on without any penalty, or loss of emotion. On the other hand, with the MMO genre, we have some short term goals (running to this area, killing x mobs) that generally don't keep our interest because they stay static, and many many long term goals (max level cap, mount, etc), that many of us give up on because the short-term goals didn't keep our attention long enough. So with the FPS genre, we have the "kill = feel good" feeling so we keep going, and the repetitive feeling with the MMO genre. That's why, in my opinion, FPS games can hold our attention unlike MMOs.
With that said however, there's a few points about each of those genre's I'd like to point out. When we play FPS, we don't have any long-lasting effects (except with your increase in twitch-skill, strategy - but these are not directly shown when you go into your FPS game, unless there's some sort of ranking system, and usually there isn't*) that appear in the MMO genre. With the MMO genre, we might see some similarities with and FPS game that the devs might add in - Open PVP can be an example. Open PVP can allow a player to feel more accomplished in a smaller amount of time: killing a number of players, racking up PVP points, going up in PVP ranks, gaining more skill, etc. Generally, we can see some sort of parallelism with Open PVP in MMOs and FPS games. That could be a reason why games with a good PVP system in place can do well on the market (WoW, DAoC, etc) - because with the combined feeling of short-term satisfaction, which can lead to long-term satisfaction, we get a more pleasing experience, which might allow us to continue playing this MMO for a longer amount of time. *Unless you're playing as an amateur and you've joined some sort of league where there is team ranking. And usually if you are this type of player, you will stick with your FPS BECAUSE you have this "long-term" satisfaction. Game Play Most other game genres either have very engaging, challenging game play, or they have very strategic game play. Sure, theres still some system of achievements and rewards, but the game play is entertaining enough to stand on it's on. Even if there was no leader board in an FPS game you'd still have fun playing. On the other hand, what would happen if we took any of the current, top MMO's and removed the levels, gear, and money? Aside from the role players, who else would still play the game? My guess is, almost no one. With out achievements and rewards, MMO's are almost worthless because the game play is weak. In nearly every MMO ever made, the game play is neither twitchy nor strategic, rather, it's some type of bastardized mix of the two thats designed so that even a retarded monkey could play AND be successful. Not to mention, theres the old, archaic notion that if the game has "RPG" in the title it means everything has to be about your "avatar". No one wants to spend hundreds of hours maxing their character only to be outdone by a newer player thats actually good at the game, right? What we end up with then, is auto-mode game play thats not engaging or challenging or even that entertaining. The only thing that keeps you coming back is the carrot: that next level, that next piece of gear, that next bit of gold...You rarely log on and go out just to play the game. Sure, plenty of people claim they do, but how many would stick around if you removed all the carrots?
FPS games have what I call the "quickie" effect. You play a FPS (let's say Counter-Strike) with no real long-term goals and many short term ones that can be achieved in a very short amount of time. These things include: killing x number of players, saving up x amount of money to buy a gun to kill x number of players, be the top on your team. With these sub-conscious goals in mind, you can get the "Wow, I win" feeling when you quickly accomplish these goals. And even if you don't, you can quickly move on without any penalty, or loss of emotion. On the other hand, with the MMO genre, we have some short term goals (running to this area, killing x mobs) that generally don't keep our interest because they stay static, and many many long term goals (max level cap, mount, etc), that many of us give up on because the short-term goals didn't keep our attention long enough. So with the FPS genre, we have the "kill = feel good" feeling so we keep going, and the repetitive feeling with the MMO genre. That's why, in my opinion, FPS games can hold our attention unlike MMOs.
With that said however, there's a few points about each of those genre's I'd like to point out. When we play FPS, we don't have any long-lasting effects (except with your increase in twitch-skill, strategy - but these are not directly shown when you go into your FPS game, unless there's some sort of ranking system, and usually there isn't*) that appear in the MMO genre. With the MMO genre, we might see some similarities with and FPS game that the devs might add in - Open PVP can be an example. Open PVP can allow a player to feel more accomplished in a smaller amount of time: killing a number of players, racking up PVP points, going up in PVP ranks, gaining more skill, etc. Generally, we can see some sort of parallelism with Open PVP in MMOs and FPS games. That could be a reason why games with a good PVP system in place can do well on the market (WoW, DAoC, etc) - because with the combined feeling of short-term satisfaction, which can lead to long-term satisfaction, we get a more pleasing experience, which might allow us to continue playing this MMO for a longer amount of time. *Unless you're playing as an amateur and you've joined some sort of league where there is team ranking. And usually if you are this type of player, you will stick with your FPS BECAUSE you have this "long-term" satisfaction.
-Vin
PvP games, in general, have better game play. They do still have the same slow, clunky, button mashing, MMO style combat, but you're at least playing against other players who force you to react and adjust. With PvE, you have that same boring game play PLUS extremely predictable AI. You almost always know whats going to happen, unless you get caught in the middle of respawns or something.
To be honest, I'd prefer to have a PvE MMO thats good enough to not need PvP. However, I don;t see that happening at them moment. With whats out there right now (and whats coming out in the near future) you almost have to have PvP if you want entertaining game play, because the PvE just doesn't provide it. It's always fun for a little while until you hit that ceiling of your avatars capability. From that point on, you feel completely restricted with what you can do. Every encounter is reduced to, "can my avatar handle this?", rather than, "can I handle this?". Basically, you find that formula for your avatar that is repeatable in nearly every single encounter...and it never changes.
FPS games have what I call the "quickie" effect. You play a FPS (let's say Counter-Strike) with no real long-term goals and many short term ones that can be achieved in a very short amount of time. These things include: killing x number of players, saving up x amount of money to buy a gun to kill x number of players, be the top on your team. With these sub-conscious goals in mind, you can get the "Wow, I win" feeling when you quickly accomplish these goals. And even if you don't, you can quickly move on without any penalty, or loss of emotion. On the other hand, with the MMO genre, we have some short term goals (running to this area, killing x mobs) that generally don't keep our interest because they stay static, and many many long term goals (max level cap, mount, etc), that many of us give up on because the short-term goals didn't keep our attention long enough. So with the FPS genre, we have the "kill = feel good" feeling so we keep going, and the repetitive feeling with the MMO genre. That's why, in my opinion, FPS games can hold our attention unlike MMOs.
With that said however, there's a few points about each of those genre's I'd like to point out. When we play FPS, we don't have any long-lasting effects (except with your increase in twitch-skill, strategy - but these are not directly shown when you go into your FPS game, unless there's some sort of ranking system, and usually there isn't*) that appear in the MMO genre. With the MMO genre, we might see some similarities with and FPS game that the devs might add in - Open PVP can be an example. Open PVP can allow a player to feel more accomplished in a smaller amount of time: killing a number of players, racking up PVP points, going up in PVP ranks, gaining more skill, etc. Generally, we can see some sort of parallelism with Open PVP in MMOs and FPS games. That could be a reason why games with a good PVP system in place can do well on the market (WoW, DAoC, etc) - because with the combined feeling of short-term satisfaction, which can lead to long-term satisfaction, we get a more pleasing experience, which might allow us to continue playing this MMO for a longer amount of time. *Unless you're playing as an amateur and you've joined some sort of league where there is team ranking. And usually if you are this type of player, you will stick with your FPS BECAUSE you have this "long-term" satisfaction.
-Vin
PvP games, in general, have better game play. They do still have the same slow, clunky, button mashing, MMO style combat, but you're at least playing against other players who force you to react and adjust. With PvE, you have that same boring game play PLUS extremely predictable AI. You almost always know whats going to happen, unless you get caught in the middle of respawns or something.
Ya, like I said, there are some things that PVP and FPS have in common, but not everything. To be honest, I'd prefer to have a PvE MMO thats good enough to not need PvP. However, I don;t see that happening at them moment. With whats out there right now (and whats coming out in the near future) you almost have to have PvP if you want entertaining game play, because the PvE just doesn't provide it. It's always fun for a little while until you hit that ceiling of your avatars capability. From that point on, you feel completely restricted with what you can do. Every encounter is reduced to, "can my avatar handle this?", rather than, "can I handle this?". Basically, you find that formula for your avatar that is repeatable in nearly every single encounter...and it never changes. A PvE MMO that is good enough to not need PVP (if you would agree that PVP is an important factor of a game's funess) would be almost impossible. Unless we have very advanced AI that you can interact with intensively, but that will never happen because if devs were given the option of developing an incredibly complex AI system or just allow PVP, they will obviously choose PVP. We can, and will, see a game with a sense of PvPvE, which is a mixture of those things. Where it can a more balanced stress on your skill with the game and your avatar.
A PvE MMO that is good enough to not need PVP (if you would agree that PVP is an important factor of a game's funess) would be almost impossible. Unless we have very advanced AI that you can interact with intensively, but that will never happen because if devs were given the option of developing an incredibly complex AI system or just allow PVP, they will obviously choose PVP. We can, and will, see a game with a sense of PvPvE, which is a mixture of those things. Where it can a more balanced stress on your skill with the game and your avatar.
-Vin
Hey, I'm all for a good PvP game. But, I do think it's possible to have a PvE game that is dynamic enough to be challenging and exciting. I don't think the AI would have to be as smart as a player, as long as it's not so predictable. I know that some MMO's have already had dynamic mob spawns and behavior, so thats one element. Another would be mobs that adjust their strategy according to the players, I'm not sure if this has been done before in an MMO. A big feature would be mob populations that organize and attack player cities or lay an ambush or just roam around. IMO, all these features, in one MMO, would be exciting and challenging enough to get over the need for PvP.
Also, I do think there are some benefits to a PvE only game. For one, the community is probably going to be much better than a more competitive PvP community. Balance wouldn't be as critical, since the game is based around the players working together, rather than fighting against each other.
Again, I'm not saying that a PvP game isn't fun (because they're usually more fun), just saying that I'd love to see this type of PvE game.
Hey, I'm all for a good PvP game. But, I do think it's possible to have a PvE game that is dynamic enough to be challenging and exciting. I don't think the AI would have to be as smart as a player, as long as it's not so predictable. I know that some MMO's have already had dynamic mob spawns and behavior, so thats one element. Another would be mobs that adjust their strategy according to the players, I'm not sure if this has been done before in an MMO. A big feature would be mob populations that organize and attack player cities or lay an ambush or just roam around. IMO, all these features, in one MMO, would be exciting and challenging enough to get over the need for PvP.
Also, I do think there are some benefits to a PvE only game. For one, the community is probably going to be much better than a more competitive PvP community. Balance wouldn't be as critical, since the game is based around the players working together, rather than fighting against each other. Again, I'm not saying that a PvP game isn't fun (because they're usually more fun), just saying that I'd love to see this type of PvE game.
AOC & Darkfall are both promising roaming mobs, in fact there's an AOC vid on you tube showing mobs forming together, building a fort and then laying siege to a nearby players city.
So hopefully times are finally changing for the better, it's just sad that games like AC that were released back in the 90's actually had much more dynamic AI and event's than most modern MMO's. Not only that but they also offered a lot more player freedom as well as challenge (not to mention MUCH better PVP). Old AC players probably remember the shadow & fire invasion of towns, and not to forget the uber bunny rabbit massacre :P
I personally welcome the "new" type of MMOs. I don't think they're worse so much as they're offering a different type of gameplay experience. More choices =
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
A PvE MMO that is good enough to not need PVP (if you would agree that PVP is an important factor of a game's funess) would be almost impossible. Unless we have very advanced AI that you can interact with intensively, but that will never happen because if devs were given the option of developing an incredibly complex AI system or just allow PVP, they will obviously choose PVP. We can, and will, see a game with a sense of PvPvE, which is a mixture of those things. Where it can a more balanced stress on your skill with the game and your avatar.
-Vin
Hey, I'm all for a good PvP game. But, I do think it's possible to have a PvE game that is dynamic enough to be challenging and exciting. I don't think the AI would have to be as smart as a player, as long as it's not so predictable. I know that some MMO's have already had dynamic mob spawns and behavior, so thats one element. Another would be mobs that adjust their strategy according to the players, I'm not sure if this has been done before in an MMO. A big feature would be mob populations that organize and attack player cities or lay an ambush or just roam around. IMO, all these features, in one MMO, would be exciting and challenging enough to get over the need for PvP.
Also, I do think there are some benefits to a PvE only game. For one, the community is probably going to be much better than a more competitive PvP community. Balance wouldn't be as critical, since the game is based around the players working together, rather than fighting against each other.
I don't think this type of game will hold in the MMO market. For one, an all PvE game would have to be really story driven with a large database of lore. In addition, players might feel there's really no point in the game, since all you do is fight mobs..and level cap (or "whatever" cap if the game isn't level based), and basically the game ends there and you just keep fighting the same types of mobs over again*. And in games where there is PvE, the player is always the winner - even if it takes several tries, so the player might feel there is so challenge - unless devs purposely make a large number of mobs that are "nearly" impossible to defeat (like a main territory kind of thing). But with all this said, this type of game would still only cater to a certain audience, because fighting AI is just what it is, fighting AI. It doesn't compare to the realistic feeling you get when you PvP, and that's what most people look for in MMOs (which is ironic actually), unconsciously ofcourse - they want to be able to feel "accomplished" in a real sense because they've just killed a guy that lives in Europe, although they're doing it in an artificial world. Whereas if you just killed a big mob, it's still just a computer generated mob**.
So you're right in a sense, there's SOME benefit in an PvE game, but it wouldn't be everyone's cup of joe if you would.
*Unless devs can develop some sort of breeding system, where new types of mobs can be born, which would make an ever changing mob base. Probably a pretty hard task though.
**Like I said before, to some people it's just a mob, BUT it can mean something much more to someone who is really into the story/lore.
Again, I'm not saying that a PvP game isn't fun (because they're usually more fun), just saying that I'd love to see this type of PvE game.
I don't think this type of game will hold in the MMO market. For one, an all PvE game would have to be really story driven with a large database of lore. In addition, players might feel there's really no point in the game, since all you do is fight mobs..and level cap (or "whatever" cap if the game isn't level based), and basically the game ends there and you just keep fighting the same types of mobs over again*. And in games where there is PvE, the player is always the winner - even if it takes several tries, so the player might feel there is so challenge - unless devs purposely make a large number of mobs that are "nearly" impossible to defeat (like a main territory kind of thing). But with all this said, this type of game would still only cater to a certain audience, because fighting AI is just what it is, fighting AI. It doesn't compare to the realistic feeling you get when you PvP, and that's what most people look for in MMOs (which is ironic actually), unconsciously ofcourse - they want to be able to feel "accomplished" in a real sense because they've just killed a guy that lives in Europe, although they're doing it in an artificial world. Whereas if you just killed a big mob, it's still just a computer generated mob**. So you're right in a sense, there's SOME benefit in an PvE game, but it wouldn't be everyone's cup of joe if you would. *Unless devs can develop some sort of breeding system, where new types of mobs can be born, which would make an ever changing mob base. Probably a pretty hard task though. **Like I said before, to some people it's just a mob, BUT it can mean something much more to someone who is really into the story/lore.
I actually think PvE was/is the biggest market in MMO's. If you look at the current list of MMO's, there are very few true PvP games: DAOC, Shadowbane, EVE, Guild Wars. The rest are basically PvE games or at most, PvE games with a crappy, tacked on PvP system. So, theres no doubt that the market is there for an MMO with dynamic PvE. I guess the question is, will PvE fans accept an MMO that actually has challenging PvE?
I started gaming when Dark Age of Camelot first made its way on to the shelves, and man did I like that game. Even though I was tanking with a Druid and having fun not knowing what the heck I was doing, I felt like there was always something to do or learn (was 16 years old at the time). I was actually OK with mashing buttons to get skill chains off, because most of them were positional and required strategy. I played long enough to roam Darkness Falls, and even level up a few artifacts. There was just a lot to do, and even doing a few things repetatively never got boring. What in the world happened to that sense of adventure I used to have? I'm using DAoC as an example because it was my first MMORPG, and it was a really good one. This was late 2001, before all of these new engines came out. Yea, technology was getting better and better, but what about ideas? Having tried just about all of the MMORPGs that came out, I've yet to really see something new. Not to sound like a DAoC fanboy or anything, but dang, I've thought about revisiting childhood due to these new games being so non-innovative. I don't know about my readers or fellow MMORPG connoisseurs, but I think a lot of online gaming companies are still missing the point. They are putting so much thought and allowing so much regulation in game, that they have been simply going around in circles for the past 7 years. Maybe I should be behind a desk helping create these games (actually, that is my goal after completing college ), because to me the concept is very simple: OldNew Skill-mashing combat Twitch combat Linear character dev. Dynamic character dev. Block/dodge by chance Block/dodge by action Critical hit by chance Critical hit by where you aim
These are just a few (very few) of what I have to throw on the table. Why anyone hasn't "gotten the picture" yet is beyond me. Well, I guess that's that for now fellow gamers God Bless
when i read post like that i think of pop idol (american idol), some kids that think they can sing and actually really sucks lol.
DEVS play videogames to, but thats right, you've got more experience and knowledge then a person thats been working in the videogame industrie for years and probably own every single console ever created, and played them before you were born...
keep on dreaming
mmo is like ecstasy, the first time is always the best
I have to agree on that! mmo is like ecstasy!, the first is always the best! weeee
I think the real problem is that MMOs are getting so expensive to make. All video games are getting more financially demanding, but MMOs, especially. So innovation just gets squashed at every turn, because it's too risky. There's way too much at stake.
I doubt a lot of these crappy formula grinds could possibly do any worse, but since I don't have millions of dollars to throw around, my opinion isn't worth much.
Maybe for some this is simply about loving their first the most, but DAOC was my FIFTH MMO, and my favorite. Just went downhill from there, though. Even DAOC itself is crap now compared to the game it used to be, and not just because I got tired of it. Rather because they tried to be more like other MMOs. I'm not even sure I want to bother with WAR, nevermind anything else in this tired old withering genre.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Personally I think part of your premise is faulty. People get bored of anything that they do often enough unless they change it in some way. Thats why sports teams play with different sports teams because a different team changes the way they must play. Chess players start using timers, it changes the way they must play. Different strategies must be developed.
People do get bored with FPS. I know I do and many of my friends do. Heck we haven't touched a FPS game in a couple years just because we are so bored of them. And they are many, many like us.
So the problem is not the games themselves, or maybe it is the problem: The games have not changed appreciatively, we have. We figured out how to do it, and so it is not as engaging anymore. By and large the games have the same gameplay and mechanics as we have been playing for 10 years, with no real changes. There have been some changes in what you can do with crafting, or flight, but how you play the game has not changed and so we are bored.
New people come and play these games and think they are great because they have not figured them all out yet. This is why many games are always marketed to the teen crowd, because they are new or newer to the type of game that is being marketed.
To engage us, developers need to figure out a way to significantly change how we play the game and still make it fun and engaging. I don't know how they would do that, and I wager they don't either, which is why the games haven't changed.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Games these days robbed me of joy of random pvp by turning it into a grind. I dont want pvp associated with a grind by adding points.
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
maybe EQ players can go back and relive their moments anytime but UO (or old swg) players cannot
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I've read only the first page of this topic because i don't have the time to read the other pages. Has anyone ever thought of what the outcome of a MMO made by Lionhead would be? I have thoroughly enjoyed all their games, except "The Movies", Fable and Black&White seem to have the freedom i have craved in games.
I am waiting for Age of Conan and i hope it will live up to my expectations.
I hope Lionhead would make an MMO, id love to see the reaction of players.
What it does it does well no doubt, but its omissions are to the point. The idea that they cannot polish a game with tons of immersionn would also be a silly one. Never let companies get away with as little as possible while overcharging us for it. (All the companies used to blatanly admit before they released games that they would charge as much as the could get away with. Add to that in blizzards case of charging a ridiculous 25 dollars to move a character along with other eye popping charges and its clear that greed drives them over everything else.)
MMo's are indeed getting worse now that the precedent has been set that "dumbing" a game down is the way to riches. Many of us from the early days of MMO's want new generation games to double and triple immersion not what they are doing now. While I admit WoW is fun for a time I constanly find myself sighing at the sad and truly uninspired brain dead approach it takes to crafting as well as the complete omission of virtual reality aspects.
Then again this proves what I have said for years. people on this planet, esp from what I see in the US are increasingly less intelligent. Thus the mass appeal of such games. Baldurs Gate online might me nice
...might!
This was essentially my point in my earlier posts. The MMORPGs of today are simply lacking in their depth. They are very lacking in creativity. I couldn't agree more!
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I think thats a valid point and I've never heard a good argument against it. Why is it that you can play one FPS game after another, all of them being very similar, yet you don't get bored with the genre? Why are MMORPG's the only genre where most of us get bored after our first MMO? My theory?Game Play
Most other game genres either have very engaging, challenging game play, or they have very strategic game play. Sure, theres still some system of achievements and rewards, but the game play is entertaining enough to stand on it's on. Even if there was no leader board in an FPS game you'd still have fun playing.
On the other hand, what would happen if we took any of the current, top MMO's and removed the levels, gear, and money? Aside from the role players, who else would still play the game? My guess is, almost no one. With out achievements and rewards, MMO's are almost worthless because the game play is weak. In nearly every MMO ever made, the game play is neither twitchy nor strategic, rather, it's some type of bastardized mix of the two thats designed so that even a retarded monkey could play AND be successful.
Not to mention, theres the old, archaic notion that if the game has "RPG" in the title it means everything has to be about your "avatar". No one wants to spend hundreds of hours maxing their character only to be outdone by a newer player thats actually good at the game, right? What we end up with then, is auto-mode game play thats not engaging or challenging or even that entertaining. The only thing that keeps you coming back is the carrot: that next level, that next piece of gear, that next bit of gold...You rarely log on and go out just to play the game. Sure, plenty of people claim they do, but how many would stick around if you removed all the carrots?
I'd say, after World of Warcraft was released and was/is a huge hit, more and more companies see that there are loads of money to be made in this gaming genre. This is why there are so many worthless MMO (not counting the Korean ones) releases all the time.
Currently the only new concepts for an MMO I've seen in many years are PoTS and WAR.
[center][color=darkorange][b}Wow! Much gold. So amaze![/b][/color][/center]
As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I think thats a valid point and I've never heard a good argument against it. Why is it that you can play one FPS game after another, all of them being very similar, yet you don't get bored with the genre? Why are MMORPG's the only genre where most of us get bored after our first MMO? My theory?Game Play
Most other game genres either have very engaging, challenging game play, or they have very strategic game play. Sure, theres still some system of achievements and rewards, but the game play is entertaining enough to stand on it's on. Even if there was no leader board in an FPS game you'd still have fun playing.
On the other hand, what would happen if we took any of the current, top MMO's and removed the levels, gear, and money? Aside from the role players, who else would still play the game? My guess is, almost no one. With out achievements and rewards, MMO's are almost worthless because the game play is weak. In nearly every MMO ever made, the game play is neither twitchy nor strategic, rather, it's some type of bastardized mix of the two thats designed so that even a retarded monkey could play AND be successful.
Not to mention, theres the old, archaic notion that if the game has "RPG" in the title it means everything has to be about your "avatar". No one wants to spend hundreds of hours maxing their character only to be outdone by a newer player thats actually good at the game, right? What we end up with then, is auto-mode game play thats not engaging or challenging or even that entertaining. The only thing that keeps you coming back is the carrot: that next level, that next piece of gear, that next bit of gold...You rarely log on and go out just to play the game. Sure, plenty of people claim they do, but how many would stick around if you removed all the carrots?
You also have to consider that the consequences with MMORPGs are higher than with FPS. There's never a monthly fee with a FPS. So if the game tanks then you lose the initial investment if you don't attempt to resell and that's it. However, when playing an MMORPG there's always a monthly fee attached to it making your expectations for the quality of the game higher. Now considering this with respect to level grinding/boring gameplay that lacks in depth and motivation to play you get a lot players losing interest in a genre. Especially when all the current devs are attempting to use the same formula hoping to experience the solution of success when the winning formula (in most dev's eyes this is WoW) was a one time lucky shot in the dark. And that's how it has to be treated.
Well, if they're willing to settle for mediocre game play, just because it's safe, then we're always going to have this issue. People will get bored after their first MMO and won't stick around very long for any MMO after that. Been there done that. You can slap a new skin on it as many times as you want, but if it's still the same game play and the same predictable AI, then...
You know this is true. They are getting worse and worse. The old MMOS are getting boring. The New, nothing captivating. Warhammer looked like it had potential but the BETA proved me wrong. Conan, no idea what's gonna hapen here, but it will be the same countless grind. I think i'm gonna do myself a favor and quit MMO's for awhile and play Call of Duty 4 or something that doesn't feel like a boring, pointless grind.
I think developers are not delivering, providing, and creating what players WANT:
1) Immersion in a world; 2) character customization; 3) Questing that is fun and tasking that is fun.
Instead, they give us 1) raiding, 2) PvPing, 3) repetitive "Questing" that is really tasking; 4) worlds without authentic immersion; 5) faction grinds; 6) crafting grinds; 7) "looking for group" or "looking for more"; 8) drama caused by raid guilds.
People want community. Raid guilds, it is my theory, undermine community.
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Ah there's your problem. You started with EQ. A content grind/pixel-crack centered game. I started with UO. Say what you will about open PvP... it's static and it keeps the game fresh.As I said- I've been playing multiplayer FPS games since they practically existed and while they have changed little in principle... I am no where near burned out on them. I will play them until my eyesight goes because of what the human opponents can offer me in variety.
Games like EQ have always had a finite amount of things to offer. And although the genre has been rebuilding everquest over and over and slapping a different name on it each time- you guys are finally starting to see through it and wonder what the point of it all is.
The rest of us who know how to have a good time are fine. : P
Just as I suspected. This is nothing more than another lame FFA PVP thread in disguise. No wonder there's no reasoning with any of you. About as bad as the SWG conspiracy vets.
So what? 15 years of FPS gaming and I am pretty sure at this point Im going to be a life long fan of the genre. I'm not "burning out" any time soon. There are others like me in that genre, others like me in other genres.
Why does MMO have to struggle to keep most folks attention span for a couple of meager years?
I think thats a valid point and I've never heard a good argument against it. Why is it that you can play one FPS game after another, all of them being very similar, yet you don't get bored with the genre? Why are MMORPG's the only genre where most of us get bored after our first MMO? My theory?FPS games have what I call the "quickie" effect. You play a FPS (let's say Counter-Strike) with no real long-term goals and many short term ones that can be achieved in a very short amount of time. These things include: killing x number of players, saving up x amount of money to buy a gun to kill x number of players, be the top on your team. With these sub-conscious goals in mind, you can get the "Wow, I win" feeling when you quickly accomplish these goals. And even if you don't, you can quickly move on without any penalty, or loss of emotion. On the other hand, with the MMO genre, we have some short term goals (running to this area, killing x mobs) that generally don't keep our interest because they stay static, and many many long term goals (max level cap, mount, etc), that many of us give up on because the short-term goals didn't keep our attention long enough. So with the FPS genre, we have the "kill = feel good" feeling so we keep going, and the repetitive feeling with the MMO genre. That's why, in my opinion, FPS games can hold our attention unlike MMOs.
With that said however, there's a few points about each of those genre's I'd like to point out. When we play FPS, we don't have any long-lasting effects (except with your increase in twitch-skill, strategy - but these are not directly shown when you go into your FPS game, unless there's some sort of ranking system, and usually there isn't*) that appear in the MMO genre. With the MMO genre, we might see some similarities with and FPS game that the devs might add in - Open PVP can be an example. Open PVP can allow a player to feel more accomplished in a smaller amount of time: killing a number of players, racking up PVP points, going up in PVP ranks, gaining more skill, etc. Generally, we can see some sort of parallelism with Open PVP in MMOs and FPS games. That could be a reason why games with a good PVP system in place can do well on the market (WoW, DAoC, etc) - because with the combined feeling of short-term satisfaction, which can lead to long-term satisfaction, we get a more pleasing experience, which might allow us to continue playing this MMO for a longer amount of time.
*Unless you're playing as an amateur and you've joined some sort of league where there is team ranking. And usually if you are this type of player, you will stick with your FPS BECAUSE you have this "long-term" satisfaction.
Game Play
Most other game genres either have very engaging, challenging game play, or they have very strategic game play. Sure, theres still some system of achievements and rewards, but the game play is entertaining enough to stand on it's on. Even if there was no leader board in an FPS game you'd still have fun playing.
On the other hand, what would happen if we took any of the current, top MMO's and removed the levels, gear, and money? Aside from the role players, who else would still play the game? My guess is, almost no one. With out achievements and rewards, MMO's are almost worthless because the game play is weak. In nearly every MMO ever made, the game play is neither twitchy nor strategic, rather, it's some type of bastardized mix of the two thats designed so that even a retarded monkey could play AND be successful.
Not to mention, theres the old, archaic notion that if the game has "RPG" in the title it means everything has to be about your "avatar". No one wants to spend hundreds of hours maxing their character only to be outdone by a newer player thats actually good at the game, right? What we end up with then, is auto-mode game play thats not engaging or challenging or even that entertaining. The only thing that keeps you coming back is the carrot: that next level, that next piece of gear, that next bit of gold...You rarely log on and go out just to play the game. Sure, plenty of people claim they do, but how many would stick around if you removed all the carrots?
-Vin
-Vin
PvP games, in general, have better game play. They do still have the same slow, clunky, button mashing, MMO style combat, but you're at least playing against other players who force you to react and adjust. With PvE, you have that same boring game play PLUS extremely predictable AI. You almost always know whats going to happen, unless you get caught in the middle of respawns or something.To be honest, I'd prefer to have a PvE MMO thats good enough to not need PvP. However, I don;t see that happening at them moment. With whats out there right now (and whats coming out in the near future) you almost have to have PvP if you want entertaining game play, because the PvE just doesn't provide it. It's always fun for a little while until you hit that ceiling of your avatars capability. From that point on, you feel completely restricted with what you can do. Every encounter is reduced to, "can my avatar handle this?", rather than, "can I handle this?". Basically, you find that formula for your avatar that is repeatable in nearly every single encounter...and it never changes.
-Vin
PvP games, in general, have better game play. They do still have the same slow, clunky, button mashing, MMO style combat, but you're at least playing against other players who force you to react and adjust. With PvE, you have that same boring game play PLUS extremely predictable AI. You almost always know whats going to happen, unless you get caught in the middle of respawns or something.Ya, like I said, there are some things that PVP and FPS have in common, but not everything.
To be honest, I'd prefer to have a PvE MMO thats good enough to not need PvP. However, I don;t see that happening at them moment. With whats out there right now (and whats coming out in the near future) you almost have to have PvP if you want entertaining game play, because the PvE just doesn't provide it. It's always fun for a little while until you hit that ceiling of your avatars capability. From that point on, you feel completely restricted with what you can do. Every encounter is reduced to, "can my avatar handle this?", rather than, "can I handle this?". Basically, you find that formula for your avatar that is repeatable in nearly every single encounter...and it never changes.
A PvE MMO that is good enough to not need PVP (if you would agree that PVP is an important factor of a game's funess) would be almost impossible. Unless we have very advanced AI that you can interact with intensively, but that will never happen because if devs were given the option of developing an incredibly complex AI system or just allow PVP, they will obviously choose PVP. We can, and will, see a game with a sense of PvPvE, which is a mixture of those things. Where it can a more balanced stress on your skill with the game and your avatar.
-Vin
-Vin
Hey, I'm all for a good PvP game. But, I do think it's possible to have a PvE game that is dynamic enough to be challenging and exciting. I don't think the AI would have to be as smart as a player, as long as it's not so predictable. I know that some MMO's have already had dynamic mob spawns and behavior, so thats one element. Another would be mobs that adjust their strategy according to the players, I'm not sure if this has been done before in an MMO. A big feature would be mob populations that organize and attack player cities or lay an ambush or just roam around. IMO, all these features, in one MMO, would be exciting and challenging enough to get over the need for PvP.Also, I do think there are some benefits to a PvE only game. For one, the community is probably going to be much better than a more competitive PvP community. Balance wouldn't be as critical, since the game is based around the players working together, rather than fighting against each other.
Again, I'm not saying that a PvP game isn't fun (because they're usually more fun), just saying that I'd love to see this type of PvE game.
AOC & Darkfall are both promising roaming mobs, in fact there's an AOC vid on you tube showing mobs forming together, building a fort and then laying siege to a nearby players city.
So hopefully times are finally changing for the better, it's just sad that games like AC that were released back in the 90's actually had much more dynamic AI and event's than most modern MMO's. Not only that but they also offered a lot more player freedom as well as challenge (not to mention MUCH better PVP). Old AC players probably remember the shadow & fire invasion of towns, and not to forget the uber bunny rabbit massacre :P
I personally welcome the "new" type of MMOs. I don't think they're worse so much as they're offering a different type of gameplay experience. More choices =
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
-Vin
Hey, I'm all for a good PvP game. But, I do think it's possible to have a PvE game that is dynamic enough to be challenging and exciting. I don't think the AI would have to be as smart as a player, as long as it's not so predictable. I know that some MMO's have already had dynamic mob spawns and behavior, so thats one element. Another would be mobs that adjust their strategy according to the players, I'm not sure if this has been done before in an MMO. A big feature would be mob populations that organize and attack player cities or lay an ambush or just roam around. IMO, all these features, in one MMO, would be exciting and challenging enough to get over the need for PvP.Also, I do think there are some benefits to a PvE only game. For one, the community is probably going to be much better than a more competitive PvP community. Balance wouldn't be as critical, since the game is based around the players working together, rather than fighting against each other.
I don't think this type of game will hold in the MMO market. For one, an all PvE game would have to be really story driven with a large database of lore. In addition, players might feel there's really no point in the game, since all you do is fight mobs..and level cap (or "whatever" cap if the game isn't level based), and basically the game ends there and you just keep fighting the same types of mobs over again*. And in games where there is PvE, the player is always the winner - even if it takes several tries, so the player might feel there is so challenge - unless devs purposely make a large number of mobs that are "nearly" impossible to defeat (like a main territory kind of thing). But with all this said, this type of game would still only cater to a certain audience, because fighting AI is just what it is, fighting AI. It doesn't compare to the realistic feeling you get when you PvP, and that's what most people look for in MMOs (which is ironic actually), unconsciously ofcourse - they want to be able to feel "accomplished" in a real sense because they've just killed a guy that lives in Europe, although they're doing it in an artificial world. Whereas if you just killed a big mob, it's still just a computer generated mob**.
So you're right in a sense, there's SOME benefit in an PvE game, but it wouldn't be everyone's cup of joe if you would.
*Unless devs can develop some sort of breeding system, where new types of mobs can be born, which would make an ever changing mob base. Probably a pretty hard task though.
**Like I said before, to some people it's just a mob, BUT it can mean something much more to someone who is really into the story/lore.
Again, I'm not saying that a PvP game isn't fun (because they're usually more fun), just saying that I'd love to see this type of PvE game.
I actually think PvE was/is the biggest market in MMO's. If you look at the current list of MMO's, there are very few true PvP games: DAOC, Shadowbane, EVE, Guild Wars. The rest are basically PvE games or at most, PvE games with a crappy, tacked on PvP system. So, theres no doubt that the market is there for an MMO with dynamic PvE. I guess the question is, will PvE fans accept an MMO that actually has challenging PvE?DEVS play videogames to, but thats right, you've got more experience and knowledge then a person thats been working in the videogame industrie for years and probably own every single console ever created, and played them before you were born...
keep on dreaming
mmo is like ecstasy, the first time is always the best
I have to agree on that!
mmo is like ecstasy!, the first is always the best! weeee 
I think the real problem is that MMOs are getting so expensive to make. All video games are getting more financially demanding, but MMOs, especially. So innovation just gets squashed at every turn, because it's too risky. There's way too much at stake.
I doubt a lot of these crappy formula grinds could possibly do any worse, but since I don't have millions of dollars to throw around, my opinion isn't worth much.
Maybe for some this is simply about loving their first the most, but DAOC was my FIFTH MMO, and my favorite. Just went downhill from there, though. Even DAOC itself is crap now compared to the game it used to be, and not just because I got tired of it. Rather because they tried to be more like other MMOs. I'm not even sure I want to bother with WAR, nevermind anything else in this tired old withering genre.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Personally I think part of your premise is faulty. People get bored of anything that they do often enough unless they change it in some way. Thats why sports teams play with different sports teams because a different team changes the way they must play. Chess players start using timers, it changes the way they must play. Different strategies must be developed.
People do get bored with FPS. I know I do and many of my friends do. Heck we haven't touched a FPS game in a couple years just because we are so bored of them. And they are many, many like us.
So the problem is not the games themselves, or maybe it is the problem: The games have not changed appreciatively, we have. We figured out how to do it, and so it is not as engaging anymore. By and large the games have the same gameplay and mechanics as we have been playing for 10 years, with no real changes. There have been some changes in what you can do with crafting, or flight, but how you play the game has not changed and so we are bored.
New people come and play these games and think they are great because they have not figured them all out yet. This is why many games are always marketed to the teen crowd, because they are new or newer to the type of game that is being marketed.
To engage us, developers need to figure out a way to significantly change how we play the game and still make it fun and engaging. I don't know how they would do that, and I wager they don't either, which is why the games haven't changed.
Venge Sunsoar