People who play MMOs tend to take things way too seriously and forget they are playing a game.
Some of SOE's marketting encouraged people to invest in an online community. "Tell us about the relationships you've formed in-game" posts were on the forums from SOE staff. Articles on the Galaxies website discussed people meeting their current husbands and wives in-game.
I didn't invest that deeply into the community aspect of the game, but the mechanics were there, and the encouragement.
Many people who are encouraged to invest in community will do so, particularly when they're given the tools. When the mechanisms that enable the community to function are then dismantled, you're going to have an impact on the community, and people are going to feel it at an emotional level. In psychological terms, it's referred to as an attachment wound.
Like I say, I didn't invest in the community to that extent, but I respect others who did. I don't malign them for it. As I've said they were encouraged to do it, and given the tools. I did invest to a certain degree though, and some nice lasting friendships have been the result.
Another lesson to be learned I think could be this: If community attachment and emotional investment are encouraged and facilitated, they should be handled with care and respect. If they're not, there will be lasting repercussions.
People who play MMOs tend to take things way too seriously and forget they are playing a game.
Some of SOE's marketting encouraged people to invest in an online community. "Tell us about the relationships you've formed in-game" posts were on the forums from SOE staff. Articles on the Galaxies website discussed people meeting their current husbands and wives in-game.
I didn't invest that deeply into the community aspect of the game, but the mechanics were there, and the encouragement.
Many people who are encouraged to invest in community will do so, particularly when they're given the tools. When the mechanisms that enable the community to function are then dismantled, you're going to have an impact on the community, and people are going to feel it at an emotional level. In psychological terms, it's referred to as an attachment wound.
Like I say, I didn't invest in the community to that extent, but I respect others who did. I don't malign them for it. As I've said they were encouraged to do it, and given the tools. I did invest to a certain degree though, and some nice lasting friendships have been the result.
Another lesson to be learned I think could be this: If community attachment and emotional investment are encouraged and facilitated, they should be handled with care and respect. If they're not, there will be lasting repercussions.
I think what's interesting too is that at one time there was some critisism about the marketing of EQ because it was touted as "addictive gameplay", which was in poor taste (in my opinion) when your customers refered to it as Evercrack.
"...regardless of how I feel about the NGE itself, I think that the real lessons of it are mostly stuff that isn’t even visible to the public. (For example, IMHO the real lesson is about data mining..."
It baffles me to how SOE can afford to keep 25 servers still going, supposaldy 10K active subscribers for $15/mo and each server would cost a good amount per month to maintain and paying the devs ontop of that- there isn't even any SWG advertisement and I keep hearing they have cut off game package production. There's alot of alarm bells ringing from those signs and it's clear something's not going right at SOE with SWG.
oh...and Darth...I'm not sure what game you're playing, but SOE continues to generate about 150 million dollars a year and turn a profit. Yep, I'm sure they're crying themselves to sleep every night.
Never said we are done we have a lot of work and alot of posting to post.
I doubt that SWG is profitable right now with that low subscription base and that amount of money
they have to put in for it to stay alive (along with the usually costs, they have to pay for example to forum operators for to setup them a small own forum, they have to pay for positive reviews and sometimes even for positive postings in indipendent forums )
No need to ruin $OE as long as they have to put money in NGE and / or LA had enough and get rid of them by pulling the license. Personally would feel satisfaction.
BTW for the past 2 years i feel satisfaction regarding this we need to simply keep pushing.
don't get me wrong , don't want this based only on that particualr NGE event (it is the bigest part of it-yes) but also of that progress afterwards with the continuing ignoring,banning , lying,denying $OE. -hence it took the CEO 2 years to admite NGE as a mistake and i still not have seen any real action followed by this insight - offer a classic server for example
Every time i read post of you i think ...okay you got some decent/intresting points to say but then.....those last 2 lines, completly lose the effect the rest of most of your post had....Blame SOE for what ever you feel like, but to put blame on people who simply are having fun and enjoy themself to be the cause of destroying hte Galaxie is something i simply will not except.
oh...and Darth...I'm not sure what game you're playing, but SOE continues to generate about 150 million dollars a year and turn a profit. Yep, I'm sure they're crying themselves to sleep every night.
Never said we are done we have a lot of work and alot of posting to post.
I doubt that SWG is profitable right now with that low subscription base and that amount of money
they have to put in for it to stay alive (along with the usually costs, they have to pay for example to forum operators for to setup them a small own forum, they have to pay for positive reviews and sometimes even for positive postings in indipendent forums )
No need to ruin $OE as long as they have to put money in NGE and / or LA had enough and get rid of them by pulling the license. Personally would feel satisfaction.
BTW for the past 2 years i feel satisfaction regarding this we need to simply keep pushing.
don't get me wrong , don't want this based only on that particualr NGE event (it is the bigest part of it-yes) but also of that progress afterwards with the continuing ignoring,banning , lying,denying $OE. -hence it took the CEO 2 years to admite NGE as a mistake and i still not have seen any real action followed by this insight - offer a classic server for example
Every time i read post of you i think ...okay you got some decent/intresting points to say but then.....those last 2 lines, completly lose the effect the rest of most of your post had....Blame SOE for what ever you feel like, but to put blame on people who simply are having fun and enjoy themself to be the cause of destroying hte Galaxie is something i simply will not except.
don't think my post can be the source for this reference.
First in last 2 lines the post is about the process after NGE, from the very first delete of post in lithium forum with subject "Rollback to Pre CU please" till Smeds "apology for the NGE" then i demand a action should follow this big "apology" How can a classic server destroy $OE and the fun of people ? on contrary i believe many of the vets would resubscribe.
If you refer to my satisfaction about the current state of an unsuccessful NGE, i am referring to the economical state of the game here (the answer to the 150 millions profit) . $OE may achieve profit but i don't think with NGE and it should stay this way, sorry but a game who satisfys maybe 100k people and in the same time exiles and left out 300k people don't should have success IMHO all the more if its exclusive (only SW MMO out) i vote for a scenario of coexistence. It is not me who want the fun destroyed, ask yourself who is denying 300k of SWG gamer to not have fun ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Every time i read post of you i think ...okay you got some decent/intresting points to say but then.....those last 2 lines, completly lose the effect the rest of most of your post had....Blame SOE for what ever you feel like, but to put blame on people who simply are having fun and enjoy themself to be the cause of destroying hte Galaxie is something i simply will not except.
don't think my post can be the source for this reference.
First in last 2 lines the post is about the process after NGE, from the very first delete of post in lithium forum with subject "Rollback to Pre CU please" till Smeds "apology for the NGE" then i demand a action should follow this big "apology" How can a classic server destroy $OE and the fun of people ? on contrary i believe many of the vets would resubscribe.
If you refer to my satisfaction about the current state of an unsuccessful NGE, i am referring to the economical state of the game here (the answer to the 150 millions profit) . $OE may achieve profit but i don't think with NGE and it should stay this way, sorry but a game who satisfys maybe 100k people and in the same time exiles and left out 300k people don't should have success IMHO all the more if its exclusive (only SW MMO out)
Nope...like i said most things you say are good to read...but i was refuring to :
Everyone who logs into NGE destroys a bit of the SW Universe. <
No SWG Pre-Cu, No money to the $OE suckers , simple and fair. <
Every time i read post of you i think ...okay you got some decent/intresting points to say but then.....those last 2 lines, completly lose the effect the rest of most of your post had....Blame SOE for what ever you feel like, but to put blame on people who simply are having fun and enjoy themself to be the cause of destroying hte Galaxie is something i simply will not except.
don't think my post can be the source for this reference.
First in last 2 lines the post is about the process after NGE, from the very first delete of post in lithium forum with subject "Rollback to Pre CU please" till Smeds "apology for the NGE" then i demand a action should follow this big "apology" How can a classic server destroy $OE and the fun of people ? on contrary i believe many of the vets would resubscribe.
If you refer to my satisfaction about the current state of an unsuccessful NGE, i am referring to the economical state of the game here (the answer to the 150 millions profit) . $OE may achieve profit but i don't think with NGE and it should stay this way, sorry but a game who satisfys maybe 100k people and in the same time exiles and left out 300k people don't should have success IMHO all the more if its exclusive (only SW MMO out)
Nope...like i said most things you say are good to read...but i was refuring to :
Everyone who logs into NGE destroys a bit of the SW Universe. <
No SWG Pre-Cu, No money to the $OE suckers , simple and fair. <
ahh ok that makes more sense
thats my sig. Finally i am feeling like an fighter for my rights with NGE fiasko.
ok only the first line could be interpreted like you did i think. But both are part of my beliefs that is
"NGE is not Star Wars Galaxies if you pay em you don't help in restoring the true Star Wars Galaxies, bythat meaning its helping in destroying it by keeping a false one"
sorry and i don't change it . But you free try to convince me that i am wrong.
EDIT: because of possible misunderstandings changed my sig to differ more from post message
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Add-on to your list: Raph Koster: "...regardless of how I feel about the NGE itself, I think that the real lessons of it are mostly stuff that isn’t even visible to the public. (For example, IMHO the real lesson is about data mining..."
Thanks for the link; that was a good read. I'd love to know what Raph means re. data mining, but as he says in his post, there are things about the NGE chain of events that are protected by confidentiality agreements, so we'll probably never get those details.
Missing information is probably another factor that has contributed to the longevity of this issue. People try to understand, and end up debating with each other, without access to important facts.
Missing info. aside, I find myself posting now mainly when someone attempts to say things that don't come across as honest or respectful (e.g. the NGE was needed to save the game, vets brought the NGE on themselves with their whining, SOE didn't do anything wrong etc.).
I'm also at a stage in this whole thing where I don't feel any lingering resentment. I've made my peace with the situation and the people involved, and I've invested in other interests. For the most part now I'm thankful for the fun I had before things went strange, even more thankful for the friendships I've made through it all, and I'm seeing lessons I've learned through the whole process. Some of the lessons apply specifically to MMO gaming, but others are more general. Hence this thread
I suspect that Koster's comment about data mining was that SWG mismanagement tried to dig through untold gigabytes of player generated ingame feedback (chat logs, spatial chat, etc) to pick up on trends.
We know, for example, that decisions on game balance were guided by counting how many players were gravitating toward certain professions (i.e. too many pistoleers means that pistoleer skills need to be scrutinized for power imbalances). Data mining may have been taken to some extremes that were not of a mathematical nature, and therefore more subject to misinterpretation.
The catch was that what people say and what they do are often two totally different things, and SWG mismanagement interpreted the mined data it ways that not only did not reflect what their players would do, but in fact led them totally astray from the players' sensibility.
SWG mismanagment should not feel too badly about this; economists have been confusing their wishful thinking about economic activity based on their theories with reality for decades.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Great post. Its good to look back at SWG and laugh, because we had fun... but then you realize that its gone. Its never coming back. Its gooone. BASTARDZES ARARG
That many factors determine how successful or appealing a game is to the mass markets, and while having a strong IP is certainly one of the key ingredients, it certainly isn't the only one necessary to ensure broad appeal.
Another key lesson is.... a game doesn't need to have as many subs as WOW to be considered a success and perhaps enhancing the core gameplay/vision is always the better way to go. (as opposed to re-inventing the wheel which NGE and the TOA/DAOC expansions did.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Another key lesson is.... a game doesn't need to have as many subs as WOW to be considered a success and perhaps enhancing the core gameplay/vision is always the better way to go. (as opposed to re-inventing the wheel which NGE and the TOA/DAOC expansions did.)
You underestimate the boundless greed of corporate management, and also how badly the precious egos of asshats like LA and Smedley were bruised as they were PWND by those relative upstarts in MMO and IP over at Blizzard.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
I suspect that Koster's comment about data mining was that SWG mismanagement tried to dig through untold gigabytes of player generated ingame feedback (chat logs, spatial chat, etc) to pick up on trends. We know, for example, that decisions on game balance were guided by counting how many players were gravitating toward certain professions (i.e. too many pistoleers means that pistoleer skills need to be scrutinized for power imbalances). Data mining may have been taken to some extremes that were not of a mathematical nature, and therefore more subject to misinterpretation. The catch was that what people say and what they do are often two totally different things, and SWG mismanagement interpreted the mined data it ways that not only did not reflect what their players would do, but in fact led them totally astray from the players' sensibility. SWG mismanagment should not feel too badly about this; economists have been confusing their wishful thinking about economic activity based on their theories with reality for decades.
Yeah you know that makes a lot of sense Sio, thanks. I always wondered why the things people really seemed to be enjoying got nerfed or whacked in some way. It really struck me as a bit counter-productive. I mean, you want people to have fun playing your game don't you? I think a lot of people gravitated to certain areas/activities/professions simply because they worked or were fun. These trends, in my experience, were often treated like exploits. They simply weren't though. Exploits did draw people that were into that kind of thing, but to treat every big draw like an exploit was off target.
I remember the lava flea mission for example. People really missed the spin groups on dantooine that came to an end via the NGE. The closest thing to those was the repeatable lava flea mission on Mustafar. I was like, "whew at least there's still one way to earn xp and have fun in hunting groups with people." The next thing you knew, "bam!" the lava flea mission got smoked." Now there was virtually no way to group hunt, and those of us that bought the expansion early had run out of Mustafar quests. We had no idea how to try to work towards the new level cap. It seemed like they were ever on the look out to stamp out large gatherings of players enjoying a shared activity. It seemed crazy.
On the other hand, I also had no idea how they came up with the idea that there were virtually no creature handlers, and that no one would miss that profession. That sure missed the mark also.
Also, according to Dundee, the NGE focus groups didn't include those that were currently playing SWG. Getting feedback from your target audience, but leaving out your current players seems like a huge sampling error to me. You'd think you'd want to take a representative sample of the MMO gaming population as a whole. That would include both those that are and those that are not currently playing your game. To cater to only one of those sub-groups is to risk alienating one group and/or setting the two groups against one another. I guess that's what happened really too, isn't it 0_o?
I wonder if they have qualitative research analysts on staff. If not, it seems that they could have used some. Also, some people that understand group dynamics might have been really handy. If you wanted to intentionally divide a community of people and set them at each other's (and your own) throat, you'd be hard pressed to do a better job than what was done through the NGE. When I think about it, it still sometimes boggles me.
I do recognize that this is a relatively new genre, and mistakes are going to be made. I guess more than anything I wish sometimes that the SOE/LA decision makers weren't so darn sure they knew what they were doing. It seems to me that a little more humility, a little less desperation, more listening to their players and to their own staff (and I guess now valid and reliable data mining--thanks Raph!) would have been the ounce of prevention that was needed. Of course it's easier to see all that once the dust clears. Still, seeing it now is more likely to prevent it from happening again later--well we can hope
Yeah, the lava flea groups were as much about social interaction as they were about grinding. I remember that I took my main out to grind up to 90, and got him there pretty quickly, but then I trotted out the alt to go flea hunting with some of the same people. It was a lot of fun just chatting on the way to and from the killing fields. We'd all fly out on one guy's desert skiff and get pretty efficient at slaughtering fleas.
The sad thing was that before the NGE hit, the alt was out chasing down babies as a MCH/MBH. ToOW gave us some hope about the game...then the NGE took it away brutally.
It was a substitute for the old spin groups...those were mindless grinding, but with the old UI it was easy to chat along while you were spinning. I remember how when you hit the space bar you'd jump...everyone was jumping at random as the modal chat wasn't quite right in the NGE.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Major releases need more then 2 weeks of Beta testing and when beta testers find bugs and issues the revision needs to go BACK to development for repair and republish on BETA. Not go to live and fix later.
Well it may tick many of you off but there is much that can be learned from SWG as a whole...
The Pre-CU showed why you need to Beta Test for alot longer and hear your testers out, rather then just say "It's done!" and come out with it. I'm telling all of you, if SWG was in Beta for another 5 months, many of the long term faults and balance stuff would have been found out ahead of time. Also SWG shows that the whole "Dev's make the game, Players make the content!" idea that Raph Koster has, just does not work in the real world. It showed with Ultima Online, and it really showed in SWG. Also just flat out ignoring things that do need work in the game to work on 'other' things will hurt in the long term as well... Working on and putting a working Smuggling system would have made players happy... Rather SOE just did whatever they felt would bring in money in the short term...
The CU showed the long term faults with the game. The biggest (and I will get flamed for this) being, putting an Alpha Class into an MMO, then taking away anything to keep the Alpha Class from getting out of hand. I'm sorry but the CU showed why Jedi should have NEVER been in the game in the first place. Yes at first you'll only have a few players going Jedi, however over time you'll have more and more people going Alpha. Look at the last month of the CU, GCW Fights? Tons of Jedi and any non-Jedi being the first ones killed. Making the game harder for the Jedi Players? Great idea, however the non-Jedi Players now had a much, much harder time...
And the NGE showed well, dear lord I'm not even going to get into the whole "boohoohoo I hate the NGE" thing that many people get into...
Really in the long run SWG shows why you shouldn't rush a big name IP game out the door and then let it get to be as bad as it has become. It shows why you can't just ignore the history of the world your going to base the game on. It shows why games need both the Dev's and Players working 'with' one another, rather then the Dev's treating the Players like they should be honored to be playing the game, and the Players treating the Dev's like slaves to do every little thing they want in the game.
At the sametime SWG shines with a few things... It shows that people do want to play crafters and make items for Players to use in the world. SWG showed that you can have a 'fun' Space system that people will enjoy, and want it to work along side the ground system as well.
The thing is, this game has really never had any good word of mouth... Even back in the Pre-CU I remember tons of posts blasting SWG. I remember most of my real life friends and UO friends going to Final Fantasy 11 rather then SWG due to all of the faults in it. The long term thing anyone can learn from SWG is 'why' a big name IP game does need alot of time being made and worked on untill it comes out. And why the Dev's need to show that they do care about the game and Player Base...
And believe it or not I was an NGE supporter as some of you know... As of a few hours ago no more, I feel the Dev's have done far too little and far too late to really help this game. It's no fun for me anymore and I'm done.
MikeMB, That was a well thought out and very comprehensive post (I'm not going to quote it since it's too long) defining the faults of all 3 systems. That being said however, I still feel that Pre CU could still have worked, had the devs bothered to put in the work needed, the idea of a skill system with 32 professions that can mix and match is very unique in my opinion (Yes, UO has skill points, but I still think SWG did a better implementation) and I loved the idea of it no longer being a level dependant game.
I do disagree with you though, that there shouldn't be any Jedi (although I do agree that SOE should've thought of a better time period for SWG if they were going to implement Jedi), I do agree with you that there shouldn't have been an alpha class though and there could've been ways to curve this though. Someone had mentioned this a while back for the rumored KOTOR MMO, but I think it could still work here as well. This person mentioned that, rather than having one alpha class, you should have 5 Beta classes. What he meant was, 5 classes that are a step above a master profession for each type of game play (melee, ranged, healer, jedi etc.) that way they would give some variety for people to choose from and also they wouldn't be so increasingly powerful to regular professions that they would be nearly indestructable like Jedi was.
I know I aint gonna add something totally new to this debate, but I surely miss The good old game.. I really loved the way the game was when I bought it.. The Community, Buffs, how you had to work to be good. I worked around 2 years to get my perfect build, so to speak.. and get my self speed capped and getting a good Acklay hammer.. I was 2handed with a bit of fencer and stuff.. I really had no problem defeating the so-called "Alpha Class", but most of all I had fun no matter if I lost or won.. I enjoyed (And still do) PvE as well as PvP.. It was my first MMO and actually opened my eyes up a lot.. it raised my English skills up a bunch, it got me new cool friends from all over the world, and so much more.. I had fun every time I logged on, and I remember I hated to log off because there was so many things I wanted to do with all my friends in the Universe that I loved.. I still log on from time to time if they have a special "Log on for XX days for free" to see how the game is, and its definitely not the same as it was... The worlds is dead, and nothing really happens.. The new level system, is so uncool.. That was another thing I loved about the good old game.. No levels 1-90.. it was so unique IMO and so great, as people could really do pretty much all they wanted.. I still have good memories from that game, and they will stay with me for a long time.. All those night spend at the entertainers, just listening to the music and chatting and meeting new friends.. The story lines for the quest and so on, is about the only real downside I remember.. They were a bit to "loose" and could have been quite better, but I never really thought about it while playing.. I had fun hunting for pearls, Acklay Bones, PvP'ing and so much more..
There is so much more to tell, and they will be told someday I bet.
Comments
Some of SOE's marketting encouraged people to invest in an online community. "Tell us about the relationships you've formed in-game" posts were on the forums from SOE staff. Articles on the Galaxies website discussed people meeting their current husbands and wives in-game.
I didn't invest that deeply into the community aspect of the game, but the mechanics were there, and the encouragement.
Many people who are encouraged to invest in community will do so, particularly when they're given the tools. When the mechanisms that enable the community to function are then dismantled, you're going to have an impact on the community, and people are going to feel it at an emotional level. In psychological terms, it's referred to as an attachment wound.
Like I say, I didn't invest in the community to that extent, but I respect others who did. I don't malign them for it. As I've said they were encouraged to do it, and given the tools. I did invest to a certain degree though, and some nice lasting friendships have been the result.
Another lesson to be learned I think could be this: If community attachment and emotional investment are encouraged and facilitated, they should be handled with care and respect. If they're not, there will be lasting repercussions.
The biggest lesson is Don't buy another SOE game.
Some of SOE's marketting encouraged people to invest in an online community. "Tell us about the relationships you've formed in-game" posts were on the forums from SOE staff. Articles on the Galaxies website discussed people meeting their current husbands and wives in-game.
I didn't invest that deeply into the community aspect of the game, but the mechanics were there, and the encouragement.
Many people who are encouraged to invest in community will do so, particularly when they're given the tools. When the mechanisms that enable the community to function are then dismantled, you're going to have an impact on the community, and people are going to feel it at an emotional level. In psychological terms, it's referred to as an attachment wound.
Like I say, I didn't invest in the community to that extent, but I respect others who did. I don't malign them for it. As I've said they were encouraged to do it, and given the tools. I did invest to a certain degree though, and some nice lasting friendships have been the result.
Another lesson to be learned I think could be this: If community attachment and emotional investment are encouraged and facilitated, they should be handled with care and respect. If they're not, there will be lasting repercussions.
I think what's interesting too is that at one time there was some critisism about the marketing of EQ because it was touted as "addictive gameplay", which was in poor taste (in my opinion) when your customers refered to it as Evercrack.
Add-on to your list:
Raph Koster:
"...regardless of how I feel about the NGE itself, I think that the real lessons of it are mostly stuff that isn’t even visible to the public. (For example, IMHO the real lesson is about data mining..."
It baffles me to how SOE can afford to keep 25 servers still going, supposaldy 10K active subscribers for $15/mo and each server would cost a good amount per month to maintain and paying the devs ontop of that- there isn't even any SWG advertisement and I keep hearing they have cut off game package production. There's alot of alarm bells ringing from those signs and it's clear something's not going right at SOE with SWG.
Never said we are done we have a lot of work and alot of posting to post.
I doubt that SWG is profitable right now with that low subscription base and that amount of money
they have to put in for it to stay alive (along with the usually costs, they have to pay for example to forum operators for to setup them a small own forum, they have to pay for positive reviews and sometimes even for positive postings in indipendent forums )
No need to ruin $OE as long as they have to put money in NGE and / or LA had enough and get rid of them by pulling the license. Personally would feel satisfaction.
BTW for the past 2 years i feel satisfaction regarding this
we need to simply keep pushing.
don't get me wrong , don't want this based only on that particualr NGE event (it is the bigest part of it-yes) but also of that progress afterwards with the continuing ignoring,banning , lying,denying $OE. -hence it took the CEO 2 years to admite NGE as a mistake and i still not have seen any real action followed by this insight - offer a classic server for example
Every time i read post of you i think ...okay you got some decent/intresting points to say but then.....those last 2 lines, completly lose the effect the rest of most of your post had....Blame SOE for what ever you feel like, but to put blame on people who simply are having fun and enjoy themself to be the cause of destroying hte Galaxie is something i simply will not except.
Never said we are done we have a lot of work and alot of posting to post.
I doubt that SWG is profitable right now with that low subscription base and that amount of money
they have to put in for it to stay alive (along with the usually costs, they have to pay for example to forum operators for to setup them a small own forum, they have to pay for positive reviews and sometimes even for positive postings in indipendent forums )
No need to ruin $OE as long as they have to put money in NGE and / or LA had enough and get rid of them by pulling the license. Personally would feel satisfaction.
BTW for the past 2 years i feel satisfaction regarding this
we need to simply keep pushing.
don't get me wrong , don't want this based only on that particualr NGE event (it is the bigest part of it-yes) but also of that progress afterwards with the continuing ignoring,banning , lying,denying $OE. -hence it took the CEO 2 years to admite NGE as a mistake and i still not have seen any real action followed by this insight - offer a classic server for example
Every time i read post of you i think ...okay you got some decent/intresting points to say but then.....those last 2 lines, completly lose the effect the rest of most of your post had....Blame SOE for what ever you feel like, but to put blame on people who simply are having fun and enjoy themself to be the cause of destroying hte Galaxie is something i simply will not except.
don't think my post can be the source for this reference.
First in last 2 lines the post is about the process after NGE, from the very first delete of post in lithium forum with subject "Rollback to Pre CU please" till Smeds "apology for the NGE" then i demand a action should follow this big "apology" How can a classic server destroy $OE and the fun of people ? on contrary i believe many of the vets would resubscribe.
If you refer to my satisfaction about the current state of an unsuccessful NGE, i am referring to the economical state of the game here (the answer to the 150 millions profit) . $OE may achieve profit but i don't think with NGE and it should stay this way, sorry but a game who satisfys maybe 100k people and in the same time exiles and left out 300k people don't should have success IMHO all the more if its exclusive (only SW MMO out) i vote for a scenario of coexistence. It is not me who want the fun destroyed, ask yourself who is denying 300k of SWG gamer to not have fun ?
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
don't think my post can be the source for this reference.
First in last 2 lines the post is about the process after NGE, from the very first delete of post in lithium forum with subject "Rollback to Pre CU please" till Smeds "apology for the NGE" then i demand a action should follow this big "apology" How can a classic server destroy $OE and the fun of people ? on contrary i believe many of the vets would resubscribe.
If you refer to my satisfaction about the current state of an unsuccessful NGE, i am referring to the economical state of the game here (the answer to the 150 millions profit) . $OE may achieve profit but i don't think with NGE and it should stay this way, sorry but a game who satisfys maybe 100k people and in the same time exiles and left out 300k people don't should have success IMHO all the more if its exclusive (only SW MMO out)
Nope...like i said most things you say are good to read...but i was refuring to :Everyone who logs into NGE destroys a bit of the SW Universe. <
No SWG Pre-Cu, No money to the $OE suckers , simple and fair. <
don't think my post can be the source for this reference.
First in last 2 lines the post is about the process after NGE, from the very first delete of post in lithium forum with subject "Rollback to Pre CU please" till Smeds "apology for the NGE" then i demand a action should follow this big "apology" How can a classic server destroy $OE and the fun of people ? on contrary i believe many of the vets would resubscribe.
If you refer to my satisfaction about the current state of an unsuccessful NGE, i am referring to the economical state of the game here (the answer to the 150 millions profit) . $OE may achieve profit but i don't think with NGE and it should stay this way, sorry but a game who satisfys maybe 100k people and in the same time exiles and left out 300k people don't should have success IMHO all the more if its exclusive (only SW MMO out)
Nope...like i said most things you say are good to read...but i was refuring to :Everyone who logs into NGE destroys a bit of the SW Universe. <
No SWG Pre-Cu, No money to the $OE suckers , simple and fair. <
ahh ok that makes more sense
thats my sig. Finally i am feeling like an fighter for my rights with NGE fiasko.
ok only the first line could be interpreted like you did i think. But both are part of my beliefs that is
"NGE is not Star Wars Galaxies if you pay em you don't help in restoring the true Star Wars Galaxies, bythat meaning its helping in destroying it by keeping a false one"
sorry and i don't change it . But you free try to convince me that i am wrong.
EDIT: because of possible misunderstandings changed my sig to differ more from post message
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Missing information is probably another factor that has contributed to the longevity of this issue. People try to understand, and end up debating with each other, without access to important facts.
Missing info. aside, I find myself posting now mainly when someone attempts to say things that don't come across as honest or respectful (e.g. the NGE was needed to save the game, vets brought the NGE on themselves with their whining, SOE didn't do anything wrong etc.).
I'm also at a stage in this whole thing where I don't feel any lingering resentment. I've made my peace with the situation and the people involved, and I've invested in other interests. For the most part now I'm thankful for the fun I had before things went strange, even more thankful for the friendships I've made through it all, and I'm seeing lessons I've learned through the whole process. Some of the lessons apply specifically to MMO gaming, but others are more general. Hence this thread
I suspect that Koster's comment about data mining was that SWG mismanagement tried to dig through untold gigabytes of player generated ingame feedback (chat logs, spatial chat, etc) to pick up on trends.
We know, for example, that decisions on game balance were guided by counting how many players were gravitating toward certain professions (i.e. too many pistoleers means that pistoleer skills need to be scrutinized for power imbalances). Data mining may have been taken to some extremes that were not of a mathematical nature, and therefore more subject to misinterpretation.
The catch was that what people say and what they do are often two totally different things, and SWG mismanagement interpreted the mined data it ways that not only did not reflect what their players would do, but in fact led them totally astray from the players' sensibility.
SWG mismanagment should not feel too badly about this; economists have been confusing their wishful thinking about economic activity based on their theories with reality for decades.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
The one consistent theme of SWG management, that continues to this day, is that whenever a choice is to be made they will ALWAYS make the wrong one.
It's the most astounding losing streak ever.
Don't know if this has been stated yet but how about..
Never under-estimate the creativity of your audience.
Great post. Its good to look back at SWG and laugh, because we had fun... but then you realize that its gone. Its never coming back. Its gooone. BASTARDZES ARARG
That many factors determine how successful or appealing a game is to the mass markets, and while having a strong IP is certainly one of the key ingredients, it certainly isn't the only one necessary to ensure broad appeal.
Another key lesson is.... a game doesn't need to have as many subs as WOW to be considered a success and perhaps enhancing the core gameplay/vision is always the better way to go. (as opposed to re-inventing the wheel which NGE and the TOA/DAOC expansions did.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You underestimate the boundless greed of corporate management, and also how badly the precious egos of asshats like LA and Smedley were bruised as they were PWND by those relative upstarts in MMO and IP over at Blizzard.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Yeah you know that makes a lot of sense Sio, thanks. I always wondered why the things people really seemed to be enjoying got nerfed or whacked in some way. It really struck me as a bit counter-productive. I mean, you want people to have fun playing your game don't you? I think a lot of people gravitated to certain areas/activities/professions simply because they worked or were fun. These trends, in my experience, were often treated like exploits. They simply weren't though. Exploits did draw people that were into that kind of thing, but to treat every big draw like an exploit was off target.
I remember the lava flea mission for example. People really missed the spin groups on dantooine that came to an end via the NGE. The closest thing to those was the repeatable lava flea mission on Mustafar. I was like, "whew at least there's still one way to earn xp and have fun in hunting groups with people." The next thing you knew, "bam!" the lava flea mission got smoked." Now there was virtually no way to group hunt, and those of us that bought the expansion early had run out of Mustafar quests. We had no idea how to try to work towards the new level cap. It seemed like they were ever on the look out to stamp out large gatherings of players enjoying a shared activity. It seemed crazy.
On the other hand, I also had no idea how they came up with the idea that there were virtually no creature handlers, and that no one would miss that profession. That sure missed the mark also.
Also, according to Dundee, the NGE focus groups didn't include those that were currently playing SWG. Getting feedback from your target audience, but leaving out your current players seems like a huge sampling error to me. You'd think you'd want to take a representative sample of the MMO gaming population as a whole. That would include both those that are and those that are not currently playing your game. To cater to only one of those sub-groups is to risk alienating one group and/or setting the two groups against one another. I guess that's what happened really too, isn't it 0_o?
I wonder if they have qualitative research analysts on staff. If not, it seems that they could have used some. Also, some people that understand group dynamics might have been really handy. If you wanted to intentionally divide a community of people and set them at each other's (and your own) throat, you'd be hard pressed to do a better job than what was done through the NGE. When I think about it, it still sometimes boggles me.
I do recognize that this is a relatively new genre, and mistakes are going to be made. I guess more than anything I wish sometimes that the SOE/LA decision makers weren't so darn sure they knew what they were doing. It seems to me that a little more humility, a little less desperation, more listening to their players and to their own staff (and I guess now valid and reliable data mining--thanks Raph!) would have been the ounce of prevention that was needed. Of course it's easier to see all that once the dust clears. Still, seeing it now is more likely to prevent it from happening again later--well we can hope
Yeah, the lava flea groups were as much about social interaction as they were about grinding. I remember that I took my main out to grind up to 90, and got him there pretty quickly, but then I trotted out the alt to go flea hunting with some of the same people. It was a lot of fun just chatting on the way to and from the killing fields. We'd all fly out on one guy's desert skiff and get pretty efficient at slaughtering fleas.
The sad thing was that before the NGE hit, the alt was out chasing down babies as a MCH/MBH. ToOW gave us some hope about the game...then the NGE took it away brutally.
It was a substitute for the old spin groups...those were mindless grinding, but with the old UI it was easy to chat along while you were spinning. I remember how when you hit the space bar you'd jump...everyone was jumping at random as the modal chat wasn't quite right in the NGE.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Major releases need more then 2 weeks of Beta testing and when beta testers find bugs and issues the revision needs to go BACK to development for repair and republish on BETA. Not go to live and fix later.
Well it may tick many of you off but there is much that can be learned from SWG as a whole...
The Pre-CU showed why you need to Beta Test for alot longer and hear your testers out, rather then just say "It's done!" and come out with it. I'm telling all of you, if SWG was in Beta for another 5 months, many of the long term faults and balance stuff would have been found out ahead of time. Also SWG shows that the whole "Dev's make the game, Players make the content!" idea that Raph Koster has, just does not work in the real world. It showed with Ultima Online, and it really showed in SWG. Also just flat out ignoring things that do need work in the game to work on 'other' things will hurt in the long term as well... Working on and putting a working Smuggling system would have made players happy... Rather SOE just did whatever they felt would bring in money in the short term...
The CU showed the long term faults with the game. The biggest (and I will get flamed for this) being, putting an Alpha Class into an MMO, then taking away anything to keep the Alpha Class from getting out of hand. I'm sorry but the CU showed why Jedi should have NEVER been in the game in the first place. Yes at first you'll only have a few players going Jedi, however over time you'll have more and more people going Alpha. Look at the last month of the CU, GCW Fights? Tons of Jedi and any non-Jedi being the first ones killed. Making the game harder for the Jedi Players? Great idea, however the non-Jedi Players now had a much, much harder time...
And the NGE showed well, dear lord I'm not even going to get into the whole "boohoohoo I hate the NGE" thing that many people get into...
Really in the long run SWG shows why you shouldn't rush a big name IP game out the door and then let it get to be as bad as it has become. It shows why you can't just ignore the history of the world your going to base the game on. It shows why games need both the Dev's and Players working 'with' one another, rather then the Dev's treating the Players like they should be honored to be playing the game, and the Players treating the Dev's like slaves to do every little thing they want in the game.
At the sametime SWG shines with a few things... It shows that people do want to play crafters and make items for Players to use in the world. SWG showed that you can have a 'fun' Space system that people will enjoy, and want it to work along side the ground system as well.
The thing is, this game has really never had any good word of mouth... Even back in the Pre-CU I remember tons of posts blasting SWG. I remember most of my real life friends and UO friends going to Final Fantasy 11 rather then SWG due to all of the faults in it. The long term thing anyone can learn from SWG is 'why' a big name IP game does need alot of time being made and worked on untill it comes out. And why the Dev's need to show that they do care about the game and Player Base...
And believe it or not I was an NGE supporter as some of you know... As of a few hours ago no more, I feel the Dev's have done far too little and far too late to really help this game. It's no fun for me anymore and I'm done.
MikeMB,
That was a well thought out and very comprehensive post (I'm not going to quote it since it's too long) defining the faults of all 3 systems.
That being said however, I still feel that Pre CU could still have worked, had the devs bothered to put in the work needed, the idea of a skill system with 32 professions that can mix and match is very unique in my opinion (Yes, UO has skill points, but I still think SWG did a better implementation) and I loved the idea of it no longer being a level dependant game.
I do disagree with you though, that there shouldn't be any Jedi (although I do agree that SOE should've thought of a better time period for SWG if they were going to implement Jedi), I do agree with you that there shouldn't have been an alpha class though and there could've been ways to curve this though. Someone had mentioned this a while back for the rumored KOTOR MMO, but I think it could still work here as well. This person mentioned that, rather than having one alpha class, you should have 5 Beta classes. What he meant was, 5 classes that are a step above a master profession for each type of game play (melee, ranged, healer, jedi etc.) that way they would give some variety for people to choose from and also they wouldn't be so increasingly powerful to regular professions that they would be nearly indestructable like Jedi was.
I know I aint gonna add something totally new to this debate, but I surely miss The good old game.. I really loved the way the game was when I bought it.. The Community, Buffs, how you had to work to be good. I worked around 2 years to get my perfect build, so to speak.. and get my self speed capped and getting a good Acklay hammer.. I was 2handed with a bit of fencer and stuff.. I really had no problem defeating the so-called "Alpha Class", but most of all I had fun no matter if I lost or won.. I enjoyed (And still do) PvE as well as PvP.. It was my first MMO and actually opened my eyes up a lot.. it raised my English skills up a bunch, it got me new cool friends from all over the world, and so much more.. I had fun every time I logged on, and I remember I hated to log off because there was so many things I wanted to do with all my friends in the Universe that I loved.. I still log on from time to time if they have a special "Log on for XX days for free" to see how the game is, and its definitely not the same as it was... The worlds is dead, and nothing really happens.. The new level system, is so uncool.. That was another thing I loved about the good old game.. No levels 1-90.. it was so unique IMO and so great, as people could really do pretty much all they wanted.. I still have good memories from that game, and they will stay with me for a long time.. All those night spend at the entertainers, just listening to the music and chatting and meeting new friends.. The story lines for the quest and so on, is about the only real downside I remember.. They were a bit to "loose" and could have been quite better, but I never really thought about it while playing.. I had fun hunting for pearls, Acklay Bones, PvP'ing and so much more..
There is so much more to tell, and they will be told someday I bet.
I miss the old game.. I really do.