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Dazed and confused
Ramzeppelin
Member Posts: 101
OK, so for me MMO's in general have been in a state where creativity and origianlity are dormant. And for me at least, even if just for me SW is a shining example why. At least that is how it seems.
When the MMO known as SWG (Star Wars Galaxies) was released it made huge leaps for the MMO market even if in the end it earned a mostly bad reputation. The imagination though of gamers certainly was engaged as to the fabulous worlds we would start seeing from gaming companies.
Wow did that ever go foul, instead we see the same game with minor enhancements over and over and over and over. In fact it seems that some key innovations of SWG have been gradually taken away, like putting houses whereever you want them to thousands sharing the same doorway to an instanced house to now no houses at all.
Stupid me I got giddy when I first heard of SW and immediately I started to think of ways to make this game worlds apart from other MMO's. After all the setting was truly different and lends itself to truely original gameplay. Then I heard what lead developers were saying and I literally sighed over and over reading what they were saying. Especially when they were saying that there game would be like WoW without the slowdown you get in the mid to higher levels.
what we seem to be getting is yet another version of the same game. What really boggles my mind is they are targeting fans of the show and I still maintain that most fans of the show would not be attracted to wormholeWarcraft. If you notice the vast majority of people who hate World of Warcraft are people who have been playing MMos for a long time and the vast majority of fans of it are first timers.
So it follows that cheyenne is targeting the newcomers to MMO's in making what is now THE standard MMO model...I just find it hard to believe that the majority of sci fi fans would rather this approach then somthing more exciting and tailor made.I dont see a signifigant number of stargate fans playing this, certainly not for long.
If we polled Stargate fans and asked how many wanted whats basically a non twitched FPS or how many wanted somthing more a sci fi'ish adventure game, I cannot imagine most choosing the former.
I would much rather them target veteran MMO players who are extremely tired of the retreds and are dying for a game that does for MMO's what The Twilight Zone did for TV. sci fi wise..
I do not wish this game failure but rather this ongoing cloning failure so companies will start letting game designers push this amazing medium to new heights.
Comments
Comparing SG:W to SWG or WoW isn't truly accurate. Ive been a fan of the Stargate franchise for a very long time. After playing many MMO's in the past the closest two games i loved the most were:
Planetside: Rib on the graphics if anyone wants but considering how old the game is, it is still pretty decent. It had at the time the most massive world full of enemies to kill. There was no other point to this game besides killing and collecting kills. Vehicles, Skills and weapons/armor sets made this game last me 3 years. By far the only game that was going to come close was Huxley but setbacks and changes made me stop paying attention to it.
World of Warcraft: Cartoonish, lude at times and extremely fun quests/raids and PvP. Yes it has a ton of bad reviews by people but compare facts like EQ2 had 500k players while WoW had 12 million? Im sure that leads to more negative comments then any other game due to its mammoth player base. I still play and enjoy the game at times. This game shined the most because of the interface with or without customization and the pace of the game. It was also smooth without alot of chugging network problems and it had varying levels for whatever style you wanted to play. I really hope one day a sci-fi game will be based upon this engine as its an OUTSTANDING game engine to use.
Combine those two and sprinkle in Stargate material and thats one pie id love a slice of. Clones might not be everyones cup up tea. Even if SG:W turns out to be a clone i still believe its going to be one hell of a fun game to play. All the news, stories and lore if done right of course.
Please note as well the game is still in production so things that the devs had said before may not appply, and even if it has a WoW feel to it its still gonna have its own little stuff to it as well And of course any mmo today would be considered Wow ish just because its so major in the MMO market right now that it would be impossible not to campaire it to WoW in any of the features its like saying all WWII movies all have taken Ideas from Saving private ryan when there where some before that had the same ideas, but SPR used it more effectivly.
You made good points about the good aspects of warcraft, but make no mistake, WoW isnt so huge because they ommitted creativity...I would'nt mind WoW if everyone wasnt mindlessly cloning it thinking thats the way to make money.... this strategy will bite them in the ass soon as more people want somthing new, and I strongly feel that the people that want a dumbed down game like WoW will not be in a hurry to play a stargate version. They will play warhammer and conan... nope, cheyenne missed thier demographic
When you look at a game like star wars galaxies and you compare it to warcraft the first think to notice is all the fun things blizzard took away. We should be desinging our own houses, we should have farming that is highly interactive same with cooking....nobody would complain about MMO's being more virtual because they could still do all that warcraft has to offer.
Warcraft had 2 things that led to its hugeness...firstly timing, it came out at exactly the right time, 2nd it's gameplay was flawless, avatars reacted perfectly and so forth. It wasnt because it took away immersion. Everyone playing it right now would love houses, they would love more jobs to do and certainly they would welcome a crafting system that made some sense at all and couldnt be mastered by a 4 year old.
Point was that stargate is sci fi, I give sci fi fans a tad more credit in the IQ department and I firmly believe they dont want the dumbed down no immersion style of warcraft. Dumbed down I say in the sense that the makers didnt use thier imaginations in making it a virtual world. they just made a big land area to fight on. you dont live there.
As to the idea that things will change between what I read and release........they are not going to scrap thier model, the most they would do is tweak not throw away what is a very unimaginative idea that is thier base.
But in the end stargate cried out for immersion and instead is being treated like yet another oversized battleground. this contradicts the feeling of the show it is based on.
I understand why some might find this game a fun thought, but I definetly cannot understand people not seeing why this is a bad idea for a large number of stargate or sci fi fans. not to mention people who wanna "live" in such a huge world rather then just fight in it.
I would also point out that crafting in a game like WoW is utter crap. if you know of the star wars crafting model you could easily see why it should have been improved upon because it was a zillion times better then what were getting today even with its glaring flaws. I hope at least cheyenne addresses this as they still can!
edit ps---- To the heart of my point, stargate is the biggest sci fi show on the planet, my whole family are fans and we have quite a few friends that are fans as well...I swear this is the truth, not one likes the idea of this game. In the end that is my point, of course some will like it though.
There's actually a discussion about this at the minute on the forums here: forums.stargateworlds.com/showthread.php
The abreviated version of what I said there is that taking some of the good points of WoW is actually a good thing. This doesn't mean that it will be a WoW clone however.
The combat in particular is something that will be completely different. Have a look at what Jim Brown posted about what they are aiming for with the combat in these two posts:
forums.stargateworlds.com/showpost.php
forums.stargateworlds.com/showpost.php
From that you can see that although SGW will have some of the inevitable features that appear in most MMO's, it certainly wont 'feel' like a generic WoW clone. They have also mentioned that they have done away with the 'holy triad' of tank, healer and damage dealer.
There are other things too that they have mentioned that are very different from WoW
Minigames and puzzles are another aspect. Have a read of this interview: www.tentonhammer.com/node/7816
That describes the puzzles in a bit of detail, how they are a big part of SGW, and are used in quests, storyline and crafting, with you gaining xp from them too.
I can understand your concerns though, but it's my feeling that although they will take some things from WoW, a lot of the other things will be totally different. If they achieve what they are aiming to do, it will actually feel like stargate, rather than a generic MMO with a sci-fi skin.
i like the color u used for text lawl
I'm afraid I'm with the OP. I had high hopes for the game, but the more information becomes available, the more my enthusiasm dims. I am SO sick of levels. I want a skill-based game, Where I can roll a character that can evolve as my interests in the game change. No matter WHAT neat features they put in so high levels can't gank low levels, it's simply not what I want in a game. What also disturbs me greatly is the fact that there will be no player housing and no guild facilities. This has MAJOR implications. Apart from the fact there will be nothing your guild is emotionally attached to to defend, nothing physical we can WORK on and for as a guild, it also means any crafting WILL be minor, unless crafters get extra inventory space. No place to store stuff means that it is unlikely there will be anything CLOSE to the complexity of SWG crafting. And it's complexity I want, not 'combine item x and item y to get item z', with always the same rate of success and always the same quality outcome.
The combat system... I don't know. Not enough is known. I'm concerned about the very vocal proponents of twitch style combat, though. I've had RSI (repetitive strain injury) for a long time now, and twitch style combat causes me pain, even in watered down versions like Tabula Rasa.
I am so tired of WoW clones....
Linna
If I see a damned yellow exclamation point above NPC's heads, I am not going to play it. I hate it when developers use the same stuff from a completely different game. PotBS has the damn exclamation points. The producers of the "new" MMO's coming out seem to think WoW is a sure fire success model and that incorporating elements of WoW into their game will make it a success. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a veteran MMO player I want innovative, original ideas in the game. I won't give any of these development companies any of my money, if they cannot produce something new, original, creative, and innovative.
I had really high hopes for SGWorlds, but it seems like this title is suffering the same thing Star Trek Online is suffering. Namely, they don't know how to entertain the fans.
heh, they are doing a far far better job than STO IMO. They seem to be focusing on having a storyline, and having it in keeping with the SG1 story, where as STO just seem to be ignoring the fans altogether.
heh, they are doing a far far better job than STO IMO. They seem to be focusing on having a storyline, and having it in keeping with the SG1 story, where as STO just seem to be ignoring the fans altogether.
I guess I just like sandbox type of MMO's. I dont want to follow a single story line in an MMO. I dont mind mini-stories, but I dont want to follow an over-arching story like LOTRO.
I can see, to a point, where some of you are coming from. However, I can also see, from a business point of view where the devs are coming from.
It is a pretty standard business practice to emulate what has worked in the past. This is true in any business - not just computer games. Look at the automobile business. First company 'A' creates the SUV. The next year companies B, C and D follow suit as they see how successful the SUV is. Insurance - first Allstate introduced accident forgiveness, now dozens of companies use the same thing. It happens everywhere.
Innovation also means a much higher risk. When you get down to it - WoW is simply a clone of EQ but with some improvements to make it more casual friendly Devs saw the improvements and what it did for playability and incorporate it into their own products. Many of these products have come and and made the company good money - not WoW money but good money. It was a good risk.
Then you have a couple of guys out there trying to be innovative. The big one is DarkFall. But look what is happening to that game. They have great ideas but no real vision on how to make those ideas come to life. Great promises but now anyone who is not a fanboi just considers them a joke - the developer of Vaporware.
In addition, innovation in this field generally means that you will have a smaller budget to work with. Investors are not going to be willing to risk nearly as much money on a new formula. This is counter-productive with what is needed since innovation generally requires more money, not less.
In truth, the best method to innovate is to do it in small steps. You do not try to reinvent the genre. You stick with what is known to work but then add to it one or two new, innovative systems. WoW followed the EQ system in its general gameplay. However, it then took the quest system and streamlined it - made it much more user friendly and the introduced the world to more dynamic raids that grabbed people by the balls and made them cry out 'Give me more!'
AoC is following many of the standard methods that MMOs are known for. However, they are trying to re-invent the combat system. They want to break away from the standard 'auto-attack' system. It seems to be working for them. They have a good following and their is definitely a lot of people looking forward to the game.
WAR is following many of the same methods as WoW. But they reworking how some of the systems work. Kill quests make more sense now given that the if you have already killed what the quest giver wants, if credits you with having already done it instead of sending you back out to do it again. The public quest system is pretty unique and a fresh take on things. Even the Tome of Knowledge, while itself not completely unique, introduced some new systems such as the Tome itself giving out quests based on what you have learned thus far.
However, most people look at games like this and say, 'They are just a clone' because they have an overriding familiarity to what has already been done. The new systems they are introducing are just a small part of the game so most people dismiss them as afterthoughts.
Of course, then there is the whole 'skill-based' versus 'level-based' argument but that is an entirely different issue with no right or wrong side. In fact, I would argue that both sides are arguing for the same thing, just from different sides of the coin. That is for another post.
Very well written and I would have to agree with your statement.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC