Gold buying is the fault of the game developers and the fans of the genre that support massive time sinks in games. You are wrong! It is the fault of the buyer. He is the one that buys the game, plays it, and then instead of playing as intended decides to cheat.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Originally posted by bahamut1 Originally posted by Cabe2323 Gold buying is the fault of the game developers and the fans of the genre that support massive time sinks in games. You are wrong! It is the fault of the buyer. He is the one that buys the game, plays it, and then instead of playing as intended decides to cheat. Until those go away you will always have gold farming/powerleveling/character selling sites. Until game developers can recognize that for some people the time it takes to reach a goal is more important to them then the satisfaction reaching that goal brings, we will always have this problem. EVERYTHING takes time. Only a moron would believe otherwise. It takes time to buy the game. It takes time to roll a character. It takes time to outfit a character. It takes time to fight, to adventure, to craft, to do ANYTHING. You'd have to be pretty freakin stupid to believe that character BUILDING (read RPG), adventuring (ummm, wtf are you doing in the game if you're not) and creating "fun", whatever fun means for you, would not take any time. EVEN, roll character, top level, and killing bad guys within 5 minutes is STILL TIME. You know what? They would STILL cheat. Look at all the cheat codes in single-player games WITHOUT character building, outfitting, or adventuring. The problem IS the buyer. If you don't like the game, read "part" of the game, then don't play the game. GO AWAY. Go rob banks or steal from little children, or whatever else you like to do in RL, but get out of my game. I play the game as intended, and I don't want MY play experience ruined by some idiot with no clue with a wad of money in his pocket. This isn't an issue of cheating or not cheating. It definitely isn't an issue of in game economy either. "Power Gamers" ruin the in game economy not gold buyers. There was a study done on World of Warcraft and most people that bought gold bought enough to purchase their epic mount. So that was gold that was purchased and immediately taken out of the economy. While "powergamers" will farm up tons of gold for themselves and then will spend it frivilously on twinking their alts. "Powergamers" and not gold buyers are the ones that will make a level 19 weapon on WoW sell for 30+ gold. Again, YOU ARE WRONG!!! Developers have a known probability of power players verses casual players based on the type of gameplay they are writing for. So, for example, 10% of the playerbase being power users and power players IS ALREADY WRITTEN INTO THE GAME PROGRAMMING. And time and money sinks CAN BE ADJUSTED ACCORDING TO THAT PLAYERBASE. Gold farming adds an uncontrollable percentage to that playerbase that goes outside the boundaries of what's HUMANLY POSSIBLE to be accounted for in the programming and ruins the balance of that mechanic. This has been explained MANY times over and over. You're saying 9 million, that's ALL of WoW's players, spent 2 BILLION dollars on epic mounts? You seriously need help. Gold buyers and character buyers are generally players with less time or with time that is more valuable doing other things then playing one aspect of the game. Then don't play. Farming for cash, leveling your character, or grinding repuation are not necessarily the "FUN" aspect of the game for most players. Then DON'T play. Most players are trying to get to a bigger goal. The game provides EQUAL chances for all players to reach those goals. For some it might be the PVPing at max level (Then play a PvP game WITHOUT levels, there are tons), for others it might be raiding (Then find a raiding game without the time sinks), some it might just being able to do 5 man dungeons with friends who all started before you (This is the weakest, dumbest excuse ever as almost ALL MMO's provide a way to do this without cheating). In any of these examples the person who pays for gold/leveling doesn't find the journey to that goal enjoyable. THEN DON'T PLAY!!! How frickin easy is that? If your job and family are THAT important, DON'T PLAY THE GAME. How stupid ARE people? Seriously. They aren't cheating you out of anything. So is that why EVERY medium CALLS it cheating? Cheating from sites, Cheating from devs, Cheating from other players, if EVERYONE calls it blue, then it probably is blue. I mean DUH. The biggest problem with gold selling / leveling is that it isn't provided by the company. MMORPGs should either be designed without these time sinks or the developer should provide people that want it the ability to by pass certain aspects of the game by paying a premium for it. Well, guess what Einstein. They ARE. Sony, Blizzard, Turbine, and all the others are starting to take steps for games to have RMT built into the game. Won't that be fun? While poor souls that keep you fed, or get gov't money because they defended your lazy butt from bad guys during the war and CAN'T WORK because their legs are blown off will now HAVE to pay money to keep up in games with item malls, and pay to roll character generation systems. That'll be great won't it? Not only do rich aholes born into money to burn who've never lifted a finger in their life can buy the perfect character while the guy that defended his freedom gets left out. I think that's a BRILLIANT idea.
Well that's a bit dramatic, isn't it?
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
Yeah, you're right, and the intended audience will probably never get it anyways. I went overboard trying to make a point. I deleted it, just to say it's not the dealers fault some people keep buying crack all the time.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
To answer the OP's question: It obviously does pay to run these sorts of businesses. Look at those losers who spam our email accounts. They make money, too (well, some of them do). And even if most people hold them in contempt, there are always a few who will do business with them.
Millions of people play MMOs, and if even a small percentage of them... say 5%, use these services, that's still... what... 50,000 people? I don't know where the NYT got their figures from, because $1.8 billion seems pretty high to me, but even if it is half of that, that is still considerable income, and most of that income is profit for the few that run things.
So, yeah, there is money to be made by servicing the needs of wealthy and lazy people. There is *always* money to be made that way. All I can do is not contribute to it myself, and I don't. That's my advice for everyone else, too; but those to whom that advice would be best directed are the ones who are least likely to listen to it, so really there's no point in giving it: lazy cheaters are going to cheat regardless of what I say or what reasons I provide for not doing it. So, money will continue to be made, and these services will always be around for those looking to buy their way to "success".
to almost completly kill this problem K2 was smart they sell gold/dinar to you but then again i bet sweatfarms probably cost less and ive never bought gold for any game
How is that being smart... thats just taking the gold selling corporate and at a set rate.
I have no problem with gold sellers in a PvP game so i can remove them from my area's if need be, imo they ain't that bad anyways if you can make a living from home or where ever playing a game more power to ya.
*I've bought gold for L1 when i got my last acct banned for killing a GM on a meet n greet day.*
Did it mostly cause i wanted my adena value in gear back real quick to ease lvling an get back to where i was that much faster.
*I'm so gunna get flamed for this XD*
EDIT:
From OP: "Looks like a lot of people buy the gold for one purpose "Keeping up with the jones' ". Which does add light in one respect. Gold farming is an issue of the old games, where inflation has already taken hold. Although Im sure that there are gold farmers selling gold on any MMORPG as soon as its being released, I wonder if the demand is very low. Since everyone is still on the same playing level for the first few months."
The first few months is usually when people buy the most in my experience, since its when nothing has a set price an he who has the most cash usually dominates.
haha.... drug dealers sellin crack.. i like that analogy. feeding tha junkies.... lucki im not hook'd.... i seem to get by fine w/o it.
But on a side note, I guess it is the players fault and the game devs I suppose though some times I think they are behind it to get more money :P
But "we" set the prices for most of the gear... so if u make it hard for the "normal" person to afford and someone kums along and says "Give me $10and I'll give you the digital money you need for the item"
Then some person out there is going to be tempted to do so. Is it right? Mmm... I would say no
But if the Dev's dont take the right action torwards it then who kares? We might see a change in this later on, but I'm not sure.
Do you think Gold Sellers gave rise to the Item Mall?
For myself, I've never purchased gold or currancy in general for online games. It isn't because I have some sort of moral compass that points me away from doing so. I don't buy gold for games because, quite frankly, I'm too cheap to do so.
I don't know how profitable the practice is. For the end user it comes down to risk vs reward and how much time they have and how they value that time. If a player isn't worried about being caught and having their account disabled then I'm sure then there isn't much to keep them from buying gold. If they're comfortable buying gold then there's that variable of "how much is my time worth to me?". If a player purchases 1000 gold for a small amount relative to the time required to grind that gold in game then it will be pretty attractive to that player.
For the gold sellers it's obviously profitable enough to do it. Who knows, if I had time to play a LOT and make a lot of extra gold I might sell gold too. Sell just enough to pay to play the game perhaps.
In the end the old saying "Time is money" comes to mind. Some people have a lot of time. These people usually benefit in-game because they are able to dedicate more time playing online. It isn't about skill it's simply a dedication of time. Some people don't have time but they do have money, perhaps their time is limited because they're out making money. Perhaps it shouldn't be such a bad thing that the people with money but not much time can reach the same accomplishments in game.
Another thing to consider is that the companies that run the games could easily record all transactions above a certain value into a seperate database table and police the movement of currency. It's interesting that they don't seem to do so.
First: The Gold farming industry actually perpetuates itself in some regard. By flooding the market with cash, it drives up the prices (be devaluating the currency itself) and in doing so eliminates (or makes it significantly harder) the ability of a player to gather enough money by playing the game itself. Most MMORPGs economies are based on this. If the currency is rare, the value is high. The older a game gets the more common the currency becomes and Inflation occurs. Im sure this is old news to most of you. So Gold farming and selling of currency ages the game tremendously in a very short period of time. NO wonder we burn out of our games so quickly.
Second: Many people have called this problem one of the Developers. So, aside from asigning the blame, what countermeasures can the Devs take? Stricter in game enforcement? Selling the currency itself to standardize the price?
I bring this topic up now as we await the newest arrivals WAR and Aoc, among others. You know that the gold selling industry is salivating for their release. I wonder if the Betas already have significant gold farming issues.
I disagree that someone who doesn't buy from gold farmers can catch up. I've noticed buyers are willing to pay more for my enchanted weapons and armor. I can usually make quite a bit of gold fairly quickly.
2 further Thoughts on this topic First: The Gold farming industry actually perpetuates itself in some regard. By flooding the market with cash, it drives up the prices (be devaluating the currency itself) and in doing so eliminates (or makes it significantly harder) the ability of a player to gather enough money by playing the game itself. Most MMORPGs economies are based on this. If the currency is rare, the value is high. The older a game gets the more common the currency becomes and Inflation occurs. Im sure this is old news to most of you. So Gold farming and selling of currency ages the game tremendously in a very short period of time. NO wonder we burn out of our games so quickly. Second: Many people have called this problem one of the Developers. So, aside from asigning the blame, what countermeasures can the Devs take? Stricter in game enforcement? Selling the currency itself to standardize the price? I bring this topic up now as we await the newest arrivals WAR and Aoc, among others. You know that the gold selling industry is salivating for their release. I wonder if the Betas already have significant gold farming issues. Torrential
To your first point: Inflation has always been a problem in MMO games long before "gold farming" became common place. The Power gamer causes inflation by playing a lot of hours and amassing a lot of wealth do to this fact. The only way to prevent that would be to change the game design. Which leads me to point two.
The problem does lay in the hands of the Developers. They create a game with aspects that are not found to be fun by the vast majority of players. How many of us have done the level up to max level on a new character and then start "endgame" scenario. How many of us have done it numerous times. How many of us are sick of grinding on mobs for wealth in order to repair our items from the fun part of the game (i.e. either raiding or pvping). The developers need to implement new systems and designs into their game in order to combat this problem.
Case in point. Asheron's Call is one of the only games to get it right and not have a significant farming problem. Loot was completely randomized and had the chance to drop off of almost any mob. Plus you combine that with the absolute devaluation of the pyreal and you ended up with a more realistic bartering system.
If you want that uber sword of olthoi slaying then you better find that person their wand of monkey spanking. It was a better system and helped prevent inflation. Your ability to amass great amounts of wealth was more limited because the gear itself was the source of that wealth so you were limited on the amount of space you could hold that gear.
Of course the only real way they are going to limit the inflation is to make all items untradeable. Give the items a set value and allow you to sell them into a central store system and then have that central store system sell them to other players. Kind of like the Auction house but with set amounts. Doing this and combining it with undroppable coins (except maybe to other characters on the same account, something like a central bank for all characters of that account) would completely destroy not only the gold farming industry but also the "power gamer" advantage of more time played when it comes to the purchase of items. It also would prevent price gouging on items.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I still think a few MMO's are on the right track by offering players the opportunity to buy game cards, then through a secure method from the MMO website, sell the gamecard for in game money to another player. A lot more players do it this way knowing its more secure than a 3rd party site, plus the MMO technically gets more subscribers, mainly the ones that dont have the cash to pay for a gamecard, they can instead get a free play and have essentially someone pay for 2 accounts, the buyer and their own.
Ive also noticed in these games, that there is still some gold spamming and buying of course, but the majority of it is subsided.
Anyways its the MMO's that dont do this that forces these gold sellers to become profitable. Players are lazy and want a quick fix to the most powerful. If they cant do it through the developers, then 3rd party here they come. Thats my take.
Well combined they have estimates in the 600mill year. Regardless of how accurate some sources are or not, the real thing that is interesting here is that the gold sales are mostly over seas. No taxes!!
My only question is, are the sales and profits government controlled? Are China and other Asian countries having the strict sales of gold and accounts or is it controlled by individuals who can spend the money anyway they want. It would be hard to believe if China didn't run it's own gold farms. But then again that number of total gold sales per year of 600 mill is not all one person or unit. It is many thousands of individuals selling and so it is like porn industry, that number of Billions profit per year in porn industry is not one company. So what we might not ever know is what is the biggest gold seller income per year and where does that money go.
I'm coming a bit late to the thread, but thought I'd insert my two cents. Pardon me if it's already been said.
No, I do not buy gold. Nor do any of my friends. But I've seen situations where it's obvious why people take it upon themselves to do so.
The MMOs where I find gold selling to be at their most rampant is where the developers obviously weren't thinking ahead. Nothing motivates a person to dump real money into little pixel piles of off yellow coins like a LOUSY in game economy. I'm currently writing a full tilt review on one game that is steadily killing itself with this right now, so I'll leave it nameless until I post the review, but there were a view notable things about it.
First was the unbalance in the amounts of gold dropped at what levels.
Second the lack of availability of needed items like armour and weapons from stable NPCs and people being forced to turn to other players trades once they'd outleveled their equipment.
Third was the worst crafting system I have seen to date that some would think is designed to push their in game mall items that much harder. "Guess what? You can spend two dollars to add +1 to your weapon's power... but it might be wasted cash, as it's only a 50% chance of success. AND if you're adding this to a weapon that is already +3, there's a chance you may shatter the weapon and have to start all over. But then, you can spend 9 dollars and have no chance of breaking it at all! Oh, but it's still just a 50% chance. So how much money do you want to risk wasting today?"
Fourth was a severe lacking in gold sinks.
Fifth, once they realized they needed gold sinks they didn't take player suggestions of needed armour and weapons or highly useful potions. Instead of creating hundreds of small gold sinks that the whole player base could use, they instead made a massive teleportation fee for the game's most popular zone which actually drove the gold selling up.
Sixth was the simple stupid interface and lax moderation that not only made botting easy, but drove real players away with the riduculous lag being caused by the high number of bots.
I could go on. Any of these can drive a player insane. Except in my case, instead of buying gold, I just quit. If a company is that stupid, I'm not gonna support them.
Gold sellers will crop up in almost every game. The only ones I haven't seen is one's where staff played characters are actually in charge of trickling the money down into the game's economy as people that will pay you for tasks and the like, but that's too labor intensive for a 9mil player game. Really, no one can stop people buying gold or power leveling services, or any thing you can really think of. The only thing that can keep all players happy in the end is if that game is so well designed that money itself isn't the driving factor. I harp about Guild Wars alot, but hey... I can get maxed defense armour for 5k and a weapon that will serve me well in PvE as a drop. I can make 2k an hour, and in the end, it really doesn't matter. Because how rich I am doesn't dictate how much fun I'm having; there is no absolute and utter dependence on money, nor does it give you a ridiculous advantage over other players. People can go ahead and buy gold there, but all it will get them is something that looks cooler or is only 2% better in the more powerful sense. Games that can accomplish that will keep both players happy.
Unless another game like Uru comes along where there is no currency at all. Curse Game Tap for being too expensive for my pitiful wallet.
~ A Girl Disappearing
~~~~~ "Big surprise... there was no protection by this urban light..."
I've boughten gold thrice, 2 times for resistance gear in WOW, I wanted to raid and was required to have a high enough resist rating to apply to the raiding guilds on the server. I worked hard to gain whatever dungeon drops I could get, but was still required to have craftable gear which was far too expensive. Other time was a gift for my father's bday.
i've bought plat quite a number of times in eq2, i just don't care anymore. I use to feel the same as many others "omg its cheating" and use to sit and spend hours grinding hours in eq2 hoping for things i could sell for money.
Now i say screw it my time is much more valuable than doing that crap i want to play the game not waste time gathering money, So i will let others do it and not feel bad at all. i work to make money in real life i don't want to "work" in game to make money too.
so people who get upset at that hey tough crap heh.
Ive heard all the stories. Chinese or mexican MMORPG sweat farms, The gold selling overlord buying mansions with cash. Ive even met a few "Ni Hao" players during my time in WoW. However, I am out of the loop. I dont like or buy gold. So how many people really do? Is it that pervasive? Have you bought gold, and if so..why? WHich game do you feel requires the most gold buying? What did you use your bought gold for? How much do your purchase? Would you purchase gold again for every game?
more stuf.....
Torrential
HUH? I have heard of Japanese, Korean and even Taiwan gold farmers but Mexican? ROFL… Actually the Canadian farmers are worse.
On a serious note, although I have never bought gold I have sold Items for cash. Way back in 2003/2004 when EVE first started I used to sell packages for cash. I would sell a cruiser (all races) the skill book, the racial weapons and skill books, shield, bat, armor rep, hull rep, 10000 rounds of ammo (or their choice of crystals) 6 mining drones and 6 fighter drones (small) and all skill books needed fly and use the mods; for $15
Now I used this money to pay my bills as I was between jobs and also to pay for my four EVE accounts. I was selling 5 a day for about six months (you do the math). When battle ships came out I was selling the packages for $20 a pop.
Now, the interesting point that others have already made is true. It is the power gamers, at first, that cause the inflation. It’s quitting time (yup I am at work) so will finish my post when I get home.
It all comes down to the lazy, wanna be the best right away type player. It is profitable because losers who can't make in-game money on there own have to spend real money on pixels. And from looking at all the gold seller sites, there is tons of losers because of how many sites are actually out there. I mean, really, it is so pathetic how people waste money on crap. How about the gold buyers pay me the money and i'll send them a Hallmark card saying "Your the best! You are a toughy uber l33t playa" I personally think gold buyers and sellers are garbage. It messes up the economy, all for what...to stroke your epeen thinking you have the best toon? And to see MMO's unable to enforce the no gold spamming, selling policy makes me think they are in it with the goldfarmers.
While its true, gold sellers cause inflation in an economy, (so do no-life power gamers as well), they actually impart several benefits to a game.
1) In the course of their farming they receive all sorts of rare drops. When a regular player gets a rare drop, he frequently uses it.... and if he sells it..... it goes for a high price since he rarely finds such a thing. Farmers on the other hand get rare drops all the time due to their 24/7 playtime...and almost never keep them...they put them up for sale on the game's auction house. As any good economist will tell you, the more a good is available for purchase, the lower the price for the object will get. This is especially helpful in the early months of a game when lots of players are out there fighting for the same rare gear.....later on the flood of items actually reduces the prices in many cases to levels lower than they would be w/o the farmers.
2) They are frequently the number one source of crafting materials. Why? Because gathering crafting materials is usually a terribly boring task that no gamer in his right mind enjoys. This causes the price of crafted items to go up due to the scarcity of materials. Once the farmer/gathers arrive, they sell almost everything they gather..... and prices far less than players would since the farmers generally value their time far less than a player does.
Let's say neither of these points are true..and you find a game where the price of objects/craft materials is much higher than it should be due to game inflation. Say you are an honest player who doesn't buy gold, you still benefit. How? Because when you gather/sell your materials or the rare drops you find....you get the higher, inflated price for it...just like everyone else.
So in the end, the only player who might be hurt by the gold farmers are those who decide to earn their living strictly from killing mobs/completing quests. These activities generally are capped at a fixed rate per hour from an overall perspective...and if the economy inflates....they will see their purchasing power erode of course. The solution is simple, join in the economy, start crafting or gathering and selling at the inflated prices. Game developers could resolve this problem btw, by simply increasing the amount of gold that drops per kill (or frequency of rare drops) so that the 'adventurer' remains competitive with the rest of the player base.
As to the OP's question about reasons for gold buying, its frequently not to get some huge competitive advantage over the other players. I know about 10 people who all buy gold on a regular basis. They've spent it when re-rolling a new character on a new server so that they could equip it with better store bought gear so that their leveling rate was increased. They frequently bought mounts, or houses or boats with it......or just had it to blow on better gear that would take half a life time to acquire (think L2) to be even remotely competitive. Heck, some bought characters outright just so they didn't have to level them (again) .... and while there was a learning curve, most became quite proficient in their new class.
I can honestly say...I doubt any of them were a terror on the battlefield due to their purchases, and I doubt they ever ruined anyone else's gaming experience. They just played the game they wanted to given their limited amount of free time in their lives.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm... I guess I shouldn't be surprised that most of the comments here aren't about whether gold selling is particularly profitable for the RMT companies that offer the "service", but rather an opportunity for apologists (and their opponents) to come out in numbers.
... m asigning the blame, what countermeasures can the Devs take? Stricter in game enforcement? Selling the currency itself to standardize the price? ... Torrential
The devs could completely stop it if they wanted to. Just limit the amount of currency a player can give out in a week, accept for same account trades.
And you would think they could take legal action because people are selling something that the game company owns.
To answer the topic, I feel it's a wildly lucrative business. In some MMO's it's possible for them to actually hack for money, This means that their overhead is extremely low, and word-of-mouth + advertising can go a LONG way because they don't even have to farm, they just make new free characters and allowed them to get banned immediately after each trade. As long as you deliver the goods, you'll have return customers.
THe effect it has on the MMO itself is another issue. It totally depends on the MMO, and how it's economy is handled. It's possible to level the playing field in many ways, and in some instances, true inflation is made impossible because just about everything a player could sell you could also be bought from an NPC somewhere. It's not about being well-made, it's about using forsight to see how situations can affect the economy, and working to prevent it or balance it.
I bought gold for Runescape because I lost everything I had one day while mining some gold to get my crafting levels up.
I had been to the store to get some decent armor, but found I didn't have enough money for it, instead of taking the journey back to the bank, I kept the money on me.
I was killed by a random monster that looked identical to the other medium level mosters while killing time waiting for gold rocks to produce gold.
Here's the flaw in the game (or rather the flaw that affected my enjoyment). I had lost my high level pickaxe, required for mining gold, I also lost my high-level helmet, which I'd need to take on the last quest of the freemember area. I'd also lost my fishing equipment, which was essentially the only way to earn money in a legitimate fashion.
Theoretically, I could have spent a week killing monsters hoping for enough money to buy more fishing eguipment, but all I could fight was the lowlevel stuff because most of my armor was gone. When you fight something with a low level and you are a high level, you get garbage drops.. stuff like bones and cheap arrows if anything at all. Once I got the fishing equipment back, I'd be forced to fish in a remote location, against many bots and stuff, for about a week, in-order to perform the only thing I felt like doing with my character, which was to fight the last quest monster.
So.. I bought 2 million in gold, shared it with friends, and replaced my missing eguipment. I finished that quest, and now rarely touch the game because there's precious little else to do without buying a subscription. (I dont want a subscription since my gf's son got poisoned by a member and lost everything because he didn't know anything about poisoning possibilities)
Anyways, two things the experience gave me... one, I recognized that getting that much money really put me in a position where all of my wants were instantly fullfillable, which killed the enjoyment of the game.
two, I realized how broke runscape is, and it led me to check out other MMO options. I discovered that I didn't like the "grinding" required, and that the system is balanced for the higher-end levels to gain less from the environment, and low levels to gain a lot. That balancing works until you realize that if it's possible to strip a player of the things they need, it's possible to make a high-level character unable to compete with the lower levels, unless they're willing to regrind.
hey all, great discussion going on. Thanks to everyone who is making this thread have substance.
To GreenChaos: my understanding is that game companies, specifically american ones, do not really have significant legal recourse against international companies or players.
I wonder if chinese MMORPGs have such problems, and if they work against it at all, If they do, do they have more success.
Ok, back to the discussion, yes I am back at work.
Now as I said I have never bought gold but that is not because I do not condone it but because I have never seen the need, err make that had the need.
My brother on the other hand does buy gold and Items all the time. Ok.. Hold off with the hissing and booing for a few min while I qualify my statements.
Two weekends ago one of my son’s friends who had never played an online game before (yes some kids do not have access to computers/net still) watched me play WOW with my brother. After my bro could not take it anymore the kid asked if he could play. I said sure but not with my avatars but that I could set him up with his own avatars on a different server. He chose a PVP server so told him to simply watch me for an hour which would let him get an understanding of how the game is played. I handed him a note pad then on the new server I created 6 avatars of each class, let the customize them and name them. I had him write down the name, class and what professions they would be. I then explained to him the feed circle we would be creating. Ex: The hunter would be a skinner/leatherworker and supply armor, armor kits and leather to the tailor, black smith engineer, etc.
I then explained that the first thing we were going to need is bags and gave him the choice of playing his lock/tailor/enchant first or his paly/herb/alk and farming wolves in an area that drops bags 1/20 kills… To get to the point in one weekend playing for about 6 hours the kid had all of the avatars’ crafting skills maxed at 150 and all his avatars lvl11/12 and was making 1 gold an hour and having fun. The point being, that farming can actually be fun not just profitable and as far as ruining the economy, anyone that was buying the kids enchanted weps, armor and raw mats were doing so because their idea of fun was going pewpewpew.
Now back to my brother, yes he buys stuff all the time but it is not because he wants to be the best; it is not because he is too lazy to work for the stuff. It is simply because he wants to be able to play the game. My brother is legally blind, that is he is completely blind in he left eye and in his right he has tunnel vision and can only see about a 4” circle on the screen. When we play I will not group with him but will follow him with a healer/blaster. While he fumbles around, we are on TS but when you can only see what is in your 4” field of vision then me telling him, go right, no your other right… For my brother and others like him, buying gold and items is simply the only way they could play, forget compete they are just interested in surviving.
Comments
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Well that's a bit dramatic, isn't it?
Well that's a bit dramatic, isn't it?
Yeah, you're right, and the intended audience will probably never get it anyways. I went overboard trying to make a point. I deleted it, just to say it's not the dealers fault some people keep buying crack all the time.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
To answer the OP's question: It obviously does pay to run these sorts of businesses. Look at those losers who spam our email accounts. They make money, too (well, some of them do). And even if most people hold them in contempt, there are always a few who will do business with them.
Millions of people play MMOs, and if even a small percentage of them... say 5%, use these services, that's still... what... 50,000 people? I don't know where the NYT got their figures from, because $1.8 billion seems pretty high to me, but even if it is half of that, that is still considerable income, and most of that income is profit for the few that run things.
So, yeah, there is money to be made by servicing the needs of wealthy and lazy people. There is *always* money to be made that way. All I can do is not contribute to it myself, and I don't. That's my advice for everyone else, too; but those to whom that advice would be best directed are the ones who are least likely to listen to it, so really there's no point in giving it: lazy cheaters are going to cheat regardless of what I say or what reasons I provide for not doing it. So, money will continue to be made, and these services will always be around for those looking to buy their way to "success".
How is that being smart... thats just taking the gold selling corporate and at a set rate.
I have no problem with gold sellers in a PvP game so i can remove them from my area's if need be, imo they ain't that bad anyways if you can make a living from home or where ever playing a game more power to ya.
*I've bought gold for L1 when i got my last acct banned for killing a GM on a meet n greet day.*
Did it mostly cause i wanted my adena value in gear back real quick to ease lvling an get back to where i was that much faster.
*I'm so gunna get flamed for this XD*
EDIT:
From OP: "Looks like a lot of people buy the gold for one purpose "Keeping up with the jones' ". Which does add light in one respect. Gold farming is an issue of the old games, where inflation has already taken hold. Although Im sure that there are gold farmers selling gold on any MMORPG as soon as its being released, I wonder if the demand is very low. Since everyone is still on the same playing level for the first few months."
The first few months is usually when people buy the most in my experience, since its when nothing has a set price an he who has the most cash usually dominates.
haha.... drug dealers sellin crack.. i like that analogy. feeding tha junkies.... lucki im not hook'd.... i seem to get by fine w/o it.
But on a side note, I guess it is the players fault and the game devs I suppose though some times I think they are behind it to get more money :P
But "we" set the prices for most of the gear... so if u make it hard for the "normal" person to afford and someone kums along and says "Give me $10 and I'll give you the digital money you need for the item"
Then some person out there is going to be tempted to do so. Is it right? Mmm... I would say no
But if the Dev's dont take the right action torwards it then who kares? We might see a change in this later on, but I'm not sure.
Do you think Gold Sellers gave rise to the Item Mall?
Games I've Played: SilkRoad, Flyff, NeoCron, PlanetSide, Rapplez, UpshiftRacer, Drift City, TB, Kwonho, ArchLord, AoA, Exteel, WolfTeam, Shaiyan, WoKF, FFXIV, STO, KoTR, ESO, Defiance, Mabinogi
Games I'm Playing: Warframe/STO
Games I'm Pondering: The Secret World
For myself, I've never purchased gold or currancy in general for online games. It isn't because I have some sort of moral compass that points me away from doing so. I don't buy gold for games because, quite frankly, I'm too cheap to do so.
I don't know how profitable the practice is. For the end user it comes down to risk vs reward and how much time they have and how they value that time. If a player isn't worried about being caught and having their account disabled then I'm sure then there isn't much to keep them from buying gold. If they're comfortable buying gold then there's that variable of "how much is my time worth to me?". If a player purchases 1000 gold for a small amount relative to the time required to grind that gold in game then it will be pretty attractive to that player.
For the gold sellers it's obviously profitable enough to do it. Who knows, if I had time to play a LOT and make a lot of extra gold I might sell gold too. Sell just enough to pay to play the game perhaps.
In the end the old saying "Time is money" comes to mind. Some people have a lot of time. These people usually benefit in-game because they are able to dedicate more time playing online. It isn't about skill it's simply a dedication of time. Some people don't have time but they do have money, perhaps their time is limited because they're out making money. Perhaps it shouldn't be such a bad thing that the people with money but not much time can reach the same accomplishments in game.
Another thing to consider is that the companies that run the games could easily record all transactions above a certain value into a seperate database table and police the movement of currency. It's interesting that they don't seem to do so.
2 further Thoughts on this topic
First: The Gold farming industry actually perpetuates itself in some regard. By flooding the market with cash, it drives up the prices (be devaluating the currency itself) and in doing so eliminates (or makes it significantly harder) the ability of a player to gather enough money by playing the game itself. Most MMORPGs economies are based on this. If the currency is rare, the value is high. The older a game gets the more common the currency becomes and Inflation occurs. Im sure this is old news to most of you. So Gold farming and selling of currency ages the game tremendously in a very short period of time. NO wonder we burn out of our games so quickly.
Second: Many people have called this problem one of the Developers. So, aside from asigning the blame, what countermeasures can the Devs take? Stricter in game enforcement? Selling the currency itself to standardize the price?
I bring this topic up now as we await the newest arrivals WAR and Aoc, among others. You know that the gold selling industry is salivating for their release. I wonder if the Betas already have significant gold farming issues.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
I disagree that someone who doesn't buy from gold farmers can catch up. I've noticed buyers are willing to pay more for my enchanted weapons and armor. I can usually make quite a bit of gold fairly quickly.
To your first point: Inflation has always been a problem in MMO games long before "gold farming" became common place. The Power gamer causes inflation by playing a lot of hours and amassing a lot of wealth do to this fact. The only way to prevent that would be to change the game design. Which leads me to point two.
The problem does lay in the hands of the Developers. They create a game with aspects that are not found to be fun by the vast majority of players. How many of us have done the level up to max level on a new character and then start "endgame" scenario. How many of us have done it numerous times. How many of us are sick of grinding on mobs for wealth in order to repair our items from the fun part of the game (i.e. either raiding or pvping). The developers need to implement new systems and designs into their game in order to combat this problem.
Case in point. Asheron's Call is one of the only games to get it right and not have a significant farming problem. Loot was completely randomized and had the chance to drop off of almost any mob. Plus you combine that with the absolute devaluation of the pyreal and you ended up with a more realistic bartering system.
If you want that uber sword of olthoi slaying then you better find that person their wand of monkey spanking. It was a better system and helped prevent inflation. Your ability to amass great amounts of wealth was more limited because the gear itself was the source of that wealth so you were limited on the amount of space you could hold that gear.
Of course the only real way they are going to limit the inflation is to make all items untradeable. Give the items a set value and allow you to sell them into a central store system and then have that central store system sell them to other players. Kind of like the Auction house but with set amounts. Doing this and combining it with undroppable coins (except maybe to other characters on the same account, something like a central bank for all characters of that account) would completely destroy not only the gold farming industry but also the "power gamer" advantage of more time played when it comes to the purchase of items. It also would prevent price gouging on items.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I still think a few MMO's are on the right track by offering players the opportunity to buy game cards, then through a secure method from the MMO website, sell the gamecard for in game money to another player. A lot more players do it this way knowing its more secure than a 3rd party site, plus the MMO technically gets more subscribers, mainly the ones that dont have the cash to pay for a gamecard, they can instead get a free play and have essentially someone pay for 2 accounts, the buyer and their own.
Ive also noticed in these games, that there is still some gold spamming and buying of course, but the majority of it is subsided.
Anyways its the MMO's that dont do this that forces these gold sellers to become profitable. Players are lazy and want a quick fix to the most powerful. If they cant do it through the developers, then 3rd party here they come. Thats my take.
My only question is, are the sales and profits government controlled? Are China and other Asian countries having the strict sales of gold and accounts or is it controlled by individuals who can spend the money anyway they want. It would be hard to believe if China didn't run it's own gold farms. But then again that number of total gold sales per year of 600 mill is not all one person or unit. It is many thousands of individuals selling and so it is like porn industry, that number of Billions profit per year in porn industry is not one company. So what we might not ever know is what is the biggest gold seller income per year and where does that money go.
I'm coming a bit late to the thread, but thought I'd insert my two cents. Pardon me if it's already been said.
No, I do not buy gold. Nor do any of my friends. But I've seen situations where it's obvious why people take it upon themselves to do so.
The MMOs where I find gold selling to be at their most rampant is where the developers obviously weren't thinking ahead. Nothing motivates a person to dump real money into little pixel piles of off yellow coins like a LOUSY in game economy. I'm currently writing a full tilt review on one game that is steadily killing itself with this right now, so I'll leave it nameless until I post the review, but there were a view notable things about it.
First was the unbalance in the amounts of gold dropped at what levels.
Second the lack of availability of needed items like armour and weapons from stable NPCs and people being forced to turn to other players trades once they'd outleveled their equipment.
Third was the worst crafting system I have seen to date that some would think is designed to push their in game mall items that much harder. "Guess what? You can spend two dollars to add +1 to your weapon's power... but it might be wasted cash, as it's only a 50% chance of success. AND if you're adding this to a weapon that is already +3, there's a chance you may shatter the weapon and have to start all over. But then, you can spend 9 dollars and have no chance of breaking it at all! Oh, but it's still just a 50% chance. So how much money do you want to risk wasting today?"
Fourth was a severe lacking in gold sinks.
Fifth, once they realized they needed gold sinks they didn't take player suggestions of needed armour and weapons or highly useful potions. Instead of creating hundreds of small gold sinks that the whole player base could use, they instead made a massive teleportation fee for the game's most popular zone which actually drove the gold selling up.
Sixth was the simple stupid interface and lax moderation that not only made botting easy, but drove real players away with the riduculous lag being caused by the high number of bots.
I could go on. Any of these can drive a player insane. Except in my case, instead of buying gold, I just quit. If a company is that stupid, I'm not gonna support them.
Gold sellers will crop up in almost every game. The only ones I haven't seen is one's where staff played characters are actually in charge of trickling the money down into the game's economy as people that will pay you for tasks and the like, but that's too labor intensive for a 9mil player game. Really, no one can stop people buying gold or power leveling services, or any thing you can really think of. The only thing that can keep all players happy in the end is if that game is so well designed that money itself isn't the driving factor. I harp about Guild Wars alot, but hey... I can get maxed defense armour for 5k and a weapon that will serve me well in PvE as a drop. I can make 2k an hour, and in the end, it really doesn't matter. Because how rich I am doesn't dictate how much fun I'm having; there is no absolute and utter dependence on money, nor does it give you a ridiculous advantage over other players. People can go ahead and buy gold there, but all it will get them is something that looks cooler or is only 2% better in the more powerful sense. Games that can accomplish that will keep both players happy.
Unless another game like Uru comes along where there is no currency at all. Curse Game Tap for being too expensive for my pitiful wallet.
~ A Girl Disappearing
~~~~~
"Big surprise... there was no protection by this urban light..."
I've boughten gold thrice, 2 times for resistance gear in WOW, I wanted to raid and was required to have a high enough resist rating to apply to the raiding guilds on the server. I worked hard to gain whatever dungeon drops I could get, but was still required to have craftable gear which was far too expensive. Other time was a gift for my father's bday.
i've bought plat quite a number of times in eq2, i just don't care anymore. I use to feel the same as many others "omg its cheating" and use to sit and spend hours grinding hours in eq2 hoping for things i could sell for money.
Now i say screw it my time is much more valuable than doing that crap i want to play the game not waste time gathering money, So i will let others do it and not feel bad at all. i work to make money in real life i don't want to "work" in game to make money too.
so people who get upset at that hey tough crap heh.
HUH? I have heard of Japanese, Korean and even Taiwan gold farmers but Mexican? ROFL… Actually the Canadian farmers are worse.
On a serious note, although I have never bought gold I have sold Items for cash. Way back in 2003/2004 when EVE first started I used to sell packages for cash. I would sell a cruiser (all races) the skill book, the racial weapons and skill books, shield, bat, armor rep, hull rep, 10000 rounds of ammo (or their choice of crystals) 6 mining drones and 6 fighter drones (small) and all skill books needed fly and use the mods; for $15
Now I used this money to pay my bills as I was between jobs and also to pay for my four EVE accounts. I was selling 5 a day for about six months (you do the math). When battle ships came out I was selling the packages for $20 a pop.
Now, the interesting point that others have already made is true. It is the power gamers, at first, that cause the inflation. It’s quitting time (yup I am at work) so will finish my post when I get home.
An so it begins
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It all comes down to the lazy, wanna be the best right away type player. It is profitable because losers who can't make in-game money on there own have to spend real money on pixels. And from looking at all the gold seller sites, there is tons of losers because of how many sites are actually out there. I mean, really, it is so pathetic how people waste money on crap. How about the gold buyers pay me the money and i'll send them a Hallmark card saying "Your the best! You are a toughy uber l33t playa" I personally think gold buyers and sellers are garbage. It messes up the economy, all for what...to stroke your epeen thinking you have the best toon? And to see MMO's unable to enforce the no gold spamming, selling policy makes me think they are in it with the goldfarmers.
While its true, gold sellers cause inflation in an economy, (so do no-life power gamers as well), they actually impart several benefits to a game.
1) In the course of their farming they receive all sorts of rare drops. When a regular player gets a rare drop, he frequently uses it.... and if he sells it..... it goes for a high price since he rarely finds such a thing. Farmers on the other hand get rare drops all the time due to their 24/7 playtime...and almost never keep them...they put them up for sale on the game's auction house. As any good economist will tell you, the more a good is available for purchase, the lower the price for the object will get. This is especially helpful in the early months of a game when lots of players are out there fighting for the same rare gear.....later on the flood of items actually reduces the prices in many cases to levels lower than they would be w/o the farmers.
2) They are frequently the number one source of crafting materials. Why? Because gathering crafting materials is usually a terribly boring task that no gamer in his right mind enjoys. This causes the price of crafted items to go up due to the scarcity of materials. Once the farmer/gathers arrive, they sell almost everything they gather..... and prices far less than players would since the farmers generally value their time far less than a player does.
Let's say neither of these points are true..and you find a game where the price of objects/craft materials is much higher than it should be due to game inflation. Say you are an honest player who doesn't buy gold, you still benefit. How? Because when you gather/sell your materials or the rare drops you find....you get the higher, inflated price for it...just like everyone else.
So in the end, the only player who might be hurt by the gold farmers are those who decide to earn their living strictly from killing mobs/completing quests. These activities generally are capped at a fixed rate per hour from an overall perspective...and if the economy inflates....they will see their purchasing power erode of course. The solution is simple, join in the economy, start crafting or gathering and selling at the inflated prices. Game developers could resolve this problem btw, by simply increasing the amount of gold that drops per kill (or frequency of rare drops) so that the 'adventurer' remains competitive with the rest of the player base.
As to the OP's question about reasons for gold buying, its frequently not to get some huge competitive advantage over the other players. I know about 10 people who all buy gold on a regular basis. They've spent it when re-rolling a new character on a new server so that they could equip it with better store bought gear so that their leveling rate was increased. They frequently bought mounts, or houses or boats with it......or just had it to blow on better gear that would take half a life time to acquire (think L2) to be even remotely competitive. Heck, some bought characters outright just so they didn't have to level them (again) .... and while there was a learning curve, most became quite proficient in their new class.
I can honestly say...I doubt any of them were a terror on the battlefield due to their purchases, and I doubt they ever ruined anyone else's gaming experience. They just played the game they wanted to given their limited amount of free time in their lives.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm... I guess I shouldn't be surprised that most of the comments here aren't about whether gold selling is particularly profitable for the RMT companies that offer the "service", but rather an opportunity for apologists (and their opponents) to come out in numbers.
The devs could completely stop it if they wanted to. Just limit the amount of currency a player can give out in a week, accept for same account trades.
And you would think they could take legal action because people are selling something that the game company owns.
Surveys show 25% of respondents buy gold. However, that is amongst people into MMOs enough to fill out a survey.
The industry is easily over $1bil
There is one chinese farmer for each american player in WoW.
To answer the topic, I feel it's a wildly lucrative business. In some MMO's it's possible for them to actually hack for money, This means that their overhead is extremely low, and word-of-mouth + advertising can go a LONG way because they don't even have to farm, they just make new free characters and allowed them to get banned immediately after each trade. As long as you deliver the goods, you'll have return customers.
THe effect it has on the MMO itself is another issue. It totally depends on the MMO, and how it's economy is handled. It's possible to level the playing field in many ways, and in some instances, true inflation is made impossible because just about everything a player could sell you could also be bought from an NPC somewhere. It's not about being well-made, it's about using forsight to see how situations can affect the economy, and working to prevent it or balance it.
I bought gold for Runescape because I lost everything I had one day while mining some gold to get my crafting levels up.
I had been to the store to get some decent armor, but found I didn't have enough money for it, instead of taking the journey back to the bank, I kept the money on me.
I was killed by a random monster that looked identical to the other medium level mosters while killing time waiting for gold rocks to produce gold.
Here's the flaw in the game (or rather the flaw that affected my enjoyment). I had lost my high level pickaxe, required for mining gold, I also lost my high-level helmet, which I'd need to take on the last quest of the freemember area. I'd also lost my fishing equipment, which was essentially the only way to earn money in a legitimate fashion.
Theoretically, I could have spent a week killing monsters hoping for enough money to buy more fishing eguipment, but all I could fight was the lowlevel stuff because most of my armor was gone. When you fight something with a low level and you are a high level, you get garbage drops.. stuff like bones and cheap arrows if anything at all. Once I got the fishing equipment back, I'd be forced to fish in a remote location, against many bots and stuff, for about a week, in-order to perform the only thing I felt like doing with my character, which was to fight the last quest monster.
So.. I bought 2 million in gold, shared it with friends, and replaced my missing eguipment. I finished that quest, and now rarely touch the game because there's precious little else to do without buying a subscription. (I dont want a subscription since my gf's son got poisoned by a member and lost everything because he didn't know anything about poisoning possibilities)
Anyways, two things the experience gave me... one, I recognized that getting that much money really put me in a position where all of my wants were instantly fullfillable, which killed the enjoyment of the game.
two, I realized how broke runscape is, and it led me to check out other MMO options. I discovered that I didn't like the "grinding" required, and that the system is balanced for the higher-end levels to gain less from the environment, and low levels to gain a lot. That balancing works until you realize that if it's possible to strip a player of the things they need, it's possible to make a high-level character unable to compete with the lower levels, unless they're willing to regrind.
hey all, great discussion going on. Thanks to everyone who is making this thread have substance.
To GreenChaos: my understanding is that game companies, specifically american ones, do not really have significant legal recourse against international companies or players.
I wonder if chinese MMORPGs have such problems, and if they work against it at all, If they do, do they have more success.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
In my mind thats cheating
Work for your items!
Im a girl, strange huh?
Ok, back to the discussion, yes I am back at work.
Now as I said I have never bought gold but that is not because I do not condone it but because I have never seen the need, err make that had the need.
My brother on the other hand does buy gold and Items all the time. Ok.. Hold off with the hissing and booing for a few min while I qualify my statements.
Two weekends ago one of my son’s friends who had never played an online game before (yes some kids do not have access to computers/net still) watched me play WOW with my brother. After my bro could not take it anymore the kid asked if he could play. I said sure but not with my avatars but that I could set him up with his own avatars on a different server. He chose a PVP server so told him to simply watch me for an hour which would let him get an understanding of how the game is played. I handed him a note pad then on the new server I created 6 avatars of each class, let the customize them and name them. I had him write down the name, class and what professions they would be. I then explained to him the feed circle we would be creating. Ex: The hunter would be a skinner/leatherworker and supply armor, armor kits and leather to the tailor, black smith engineer, etc.
I then explained that the first thing we were going to need is bags and gave him the choice of playing his lock/tailor/enchant first or his paly/herb/alk and farming wolves in an area that drops bags 1/20 kills… To get to the point in one weekend playing for about 6 hours the kid had all of the avatars’ crafting skills maxed at 150 and all his avatars lvl11/12 and was making 1 gold an hour and having fun. The point being, that farming can actually be fun not just profitable and as far as ruining the economy, anyone that was buying the kids enchanted weps, armor and raw mats were doing so because their idea of fun was going pewpewpew.
Now back to my brother, yes he buys stuff all the time but it is not because he wants to be the best; it is not because he is too lazy to work for the stuff. It is simply because he wants to be able to play the game. My brother is legally blind, that is he is completely blind in he left eye and in his right he has tunnel vision and can only see about a 4” circle on the screen. When we play I will not group with him but will follow him with a healer/blaster. While he fumbles around, we are on TS but when you can only see what is in your 4” field of vision then me telling him, go right, no your other right… For my brother and others like him, buying gold and items is simply the only way they could play, forget compete they are just interested in surviving.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]