Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why do people play RPG if they don't want to grind?
Rintintin
Member Posts: 64
Hi All,
My thought is that TR has a nice balance between mission "grinding" and kill experience gain. You can actually gain nice amounts of xp by just running around killing stuff, or by doing instances. You can also gain nice xp from completing missions. With that being said why do players still complain about grinding?
Either they complain about mission grinding or just kill grinding, or they prefer one or the other. What do they expect out of a MMORPG? Isn't character advancement the whole idea behind any RPG game? Isn't that how the original D&D table game worked? Those that hate any kind of grinding, how would you rather gain exp? Would you prefer gaining xp from dressing up your avatar as skimpily as possible and just standing around chatting all day? You don't have to pay for a game or the montly fee to do that, just go to any public chat room if that is your intention.
I do agree that there could be more to crafting in TR as I am sure many people enjoy that sort of thing and running businesses etc, but seriously what do "grinding" complainers want?
Comments
To me... RPG means... roleplaying game.
Grinding is always a part of every RPG (online or offline). Only in good RPGs, it's so well hidden that the word "grind" doesn't cross your mind.
Grind means doing the same thing over and over and over. That's not fun.
MMOs played (In order of how much I've liked them): Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Vanguard, City of Villains / Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, Anarchy Online, Ryzom, Final Fantasy XI, Matrix Online, RF Online, Rappelz, Hero Online, Roma Victor
I see your point. I would have to say the only time I've felt like I was grinding in any game was during the holo craze of SWG when I went through 20+ professions in a matter of a couple of weeks. That sucked. Other than that, I guess grinding is as much a choice as it is anything else.
It's definitely a choice.
Tabula Rasa for example... I wouldn't consider a pure grind. RF Online, on the other hand... leveling is basically just a grind and not much more.
I think Guild Wars is the only MMO where I never felt like I was grinding while leveling up. (Of course there is an element of grinding later... but most of those are just status symbols you're grinding for)
But then GW isn't seen as a "true MMO"
MMOs played (In order of how much I've liked them): Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Vanguard, City of Villains / Heroes, Guild Wars, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, Anarchy Online, Ryzom, Final Fantasy XI, Matrix Online, RF Online, Rappelz, Hero Online, Roma Victor
As stated, grinding is doing the same thing over and over. Which, in itself, is a necessity of leveling in a RPG. The big difference between games though would be the Time Spent vs. Reward.
If you spend 3 hrs grinding quests and/or killing mobs just to look down and see only a small change in your experience bar, then the grind sucks. Lineage 2 has a horrible grind. Everquest has a horrible grind (at least it did when I played last).
Developers have the hard task of balancing experience rewards and such. If they make it too easy to level, people will quit because there is nothing left to do. If they make it too hard to level, people will quit because it is too rough.
WoW, as an example, was already easy to level in. (IMHO). With the change to experience and quests for level 1-60, they have made it even easier. While I agree that the game really begins in the "end game", making the earlier levels easier is a double edged sword. It allows the casual players the chance to experience the end game alot quicker, however, it also allows for people to be power leveled and not learn their class.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
The definition of an RPG does not automatically imply "grind". The act of grinding has always been, and always will be, a choice. But some games, that’s less true then others, blame the developers for that one, and lack of compelling game play.. Or ability.
Thats not a statement about TR.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Good point about the time spent versus reward. I guess it all boils down to how someone perceives that ratio. With that being said the term grinding is probably an overused descriptor of MMORPG's as I don't think there is a game on this website that has escaped being labled a "grind" by someone.
To me it all really depends on what the grind is for and if it is forced grinding due to bad development. By grinding I mean killing the same mobs over and over again. Here are a few examples of craptastic grinding that come to mind...
Grinding in order to level because there are not enough quests (content)
Grinding for gold in order to pay for your skills as you level. The game should be set up so that as you level if you dont piss away your gold you will have enough to train.
Grinding rep in order to get keyed for an instance is a horrible idea. You pay for this content but can not experience it unless you give in to the grind.
It seems to me that when developers dont want to add real content they just throw in a grind of some sort. Horrible boring time sinks that will be completely useless when the next expansion hits. SWG went one step further and bunched together a whole lot of boring time sinks and called it chapter 7.
Adding a grind is just a cheap way of shutting a games player base up until they have something else to release. Some how boring time sink equals content. Every game you play is nothing but a waste of time but that waste should be enjoyable. Killing the same mobs for hour after hour because you are forced to in order to advance your character is just really bad game design.
What other choises we have in mmorpgs than griding and doing quest?
Almost EVERY fucking mmorpgs are just about leveling characters. The main point of RPG's is just lost, because people just like numbers. Where's the adventure, roleplaying, creativity, choises and story what You are part of?
Yes, D&D was about levels, but many other table RPG wasn't, many of them where also skill based.
People talk about leveling and exp, because they don't know any other kind of mmorpgs.
How we would like exp? We don't want them at all. Ever played UO?
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
I agree. I play mmorpgs for the roleplaying experience. Yes, that includes missions, hunting, and doing those thing over and over to gain experience to advance in level, but more importantly, it mean playing a role. Grinding isn't much fun, I agree with that too, but I understand it is a necessary evil until devs can figure out how to introduce more player created content into their games. Maybe that would add much more diversity and give us more choices and more variety in how we play.
What other choises we have in mmorpgs than griding and doing quest?
Almost EVERY fucking mmorpgs are just about leveling characters. The main point of RPG's is just lost, because people just like numbers. Where's the adventure, roleplaying, creativity, choises and story what You are part of?
Yes, D&D was about levels, but many other table RPG wasn't, many of them where also skill based.
People talk about leveling and exp, because they don't know any other kind of mmorpgs.
How we would like exp? We don't want them at all. Ever played UO?
OK UO didn't have experience or character levels but in UO you had a grind of repeating the same action over and over again to get your chars to GM skill in that action.
Whether the action was tailoring or casting spells it was a grindfest. Hell, people even used macro programs for HOURS of unattending grinding just to get their skills up in UO.
Thats me playing MMO's
Yes, UO did have griding, but it did not have exp or levels. In level base systems people don't even understand that there is something else than levels.
If some people cares only about numbers, then numbers is all what they see in mmorpgs. So, if You see griding to highest level or GM, then that is all what You see.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
That's twisted. What does RPG has to do with grind? What grind is in pen and paper RPG? You were like doing the same things over and over and over? I guess that wasn't the best gamemaster.
"You arrived to a small clearing in a woods and you see zombies rising up from the ground and it's combat"... "You killed last zombie and you recieve X experience, now you noticed more zombies rising up from the ground and it's a combat" ..."You killed them!, and you noticed even more zombies rising up from the ground and it's a combat"... " You killed last zombie but hold, there are more zombies rising up from the ground and it's a combat..." Is this how your ordinery pen and paper session looks like?
REALITY CHECK
Because they are
and 
...
...
I agree. I play mmorpgs for the roleplaying experience. Yes, that includes missions, hunting, and doing those thing over and over to gain experience to advance in level, but more importantly, it mean playing a role. Grinding isn't much fun, I agree with that too, but I understand it is a necessary evil until devs can figure out how to introduce more player created content into their games. Maybe that would add much more diversity and give us more choices and more variety in how we play.
I agree here also, to an extent. I think the better an RPG is for someone the less they feel a grind exists in thier current game. Whilst everyone has different things they enjoy in a game, whether it be the story, farming or PvP etc. -the more they enjoy a game the less of a grind they will feel exists. That being said, some ppl find a certain aspect of a game that stands out above all others and dont mind the fact that they may have to "grind" to get there.
A grind can be, and can mean, different things for different players and some enjoy it, some dont. Some people enjoy some grinds and not others. It can come in a different form not even associated w/ RPG's. A lot of combinations can come of this and can only be concluded by the fact that everyone is different.
For me the more i feel the role in which im supposed to be playing, the better fitting I find a game is to be termed an RPG. However i know the term is used to fit a more broader description of a game than the one i use.
The more i enjoy a story and the more i feel that im playing out the role intened, the less i will feel the grind, and that is just how I experience it.
My point for the OP is that if you enjoy the majority of the game your playing, continue to do so
If you can stand getting through a point that isnt as enjoyable to you, so that you can get to something more satisfying, then quite possibly you have found a game that is well suited to you.
If it be an mmo, find like-minded people to enhance your experience and continue having fun
I can only wish you the best of luck 
Just for the record im enjoying Tabula Rasa atm, and look forward to spending more hours into the game and meeting some nice like-minded players to hang w/ and continue my experiences
I may get bored later but for now that isnt important to me.
Cheers,
Rexx
I think one of the biggest differences with PnP RPGs in terms of "the grind" goes like this:
In PnP RPGs, oftentimes you have a certain goal, and on your way to reaching that goal *stuff happens to you*. The encounters take you by surprise, they cut into the adventure and feel like real obstacles on your path. Therefore they can be thrilling and give you a certain sense of progress after you're done.
Whereas in the standard MMORPG model, oftentimes you have to go seek out certain types of creatures and kill them over and over again. Now the tables have turned and stuff in the world *is not happenning to you*, rather *you are happening to it*.... What's worse is you're not even leaving a dent! You're practically grinding yourself against the immovable rock of the world.
If you're going to take the fight to the world rather than it to you... Well, then that world had better be much more dynamic than we're used to... Otherwise it's sure to become an unavoidable grind in one aspect or another.
And it does not mean we have to be hand-held throughout. Just a more dynamic world, more surprise, real change.
Didn't Shelley say, "Nought may endure but Mutability"?... Well I'm still looking for it in-game and no signs at all
Grinding is usually favorde by the guy who wants to get to max level fast. Except in this game i don't think it's the fastest way to reach 50 and even if it was, there's no endgame content yet so why the rush?
I'm perfectly happy doing the non bugged quests to level. Tried grinding, it's just not as fast.
-Would you like cheddar or swiss cheese?
-Yes.
-...
The "Quest Grind" as it is now affectionately called means doing a whole bunch of quests for no other reason than the experience that you gain from it-- you don't quest for fun.
Traditional grinding is to kill mobs over and over again for either loot or experience.
So I see grinding as doing something you don't want to do, but you need to do it to progress in the game. I'm doing a little bit of grinding right now in Shadowbane to get to the max level so I can compete in the PvP. Thankfully the grind is comparatively very short -- even compared to WoW -- because I really hate the necessary grind. But the end result will be worth it.
In regard to the "Grind", so long as there are sufficient missions to mask it, besides go kill 10 critters(Rinse Repeat) then the Grind is transparent and not an issue. However if any game requries a significant amount of mindless killing of NPC's as a task then thats a failure of the Development Team to provide enough content to mask it.
because people dont wanna sit there and drone all day, its not fun ?
In ANY game you're going to have repetitive actions. Whether it's the "go out and kill 200 of some mob" of a RPG, the "go and kill the terrorists" of Counter-Strike, the "Kill Covenant grunts" of Halo and it's ilk, or anything else, grinding is grinding. Doing the same thing over and over.
The difference is, in how it's packaged. If the player feels that theiy're getting rewarded appropriately for their efforts, then the grind was "worth it", and is not perceived as such. If the reward is not perceived to be "worth it", then it's a "grind".
Notice the key in there? It's called "perception". Does the player notice the effort, or the reward more? To minimize the "grind", the reward has be noticed more than the effort to get it was.
Since "perception" is a personal value to each and every player, all that the devs can do is play with averages, colored by their own experiences.
Tr, to me, succeeds for the most part in making me not notice the effort - so far the leveling still happens as a suprise as my characters level. It's still all about the journey.
Others, perhaps more jaded, see the opposite - they see the repetitive killing - and that is all they notice. They want something else - and right now it's still being worked on, same as any other MMO at this stage of the game. Even WoW at the 2-month stage was buggy as all-get-out, with overloaded servers and people already having reached the endcap. Back then, even Blackrock wasn't in that game at that time.
As has already been pointed out, many MMOs have a alternate form of grinding to take eople's minds off of the killing that is the hallmark of most games these days. TR doesn't really have that - yet. To those people I'd say Wait and see - whether or not you stay subscribed is your own choice - See what happens six months down the line. By then, we'll have two major content patches, if the words of the devs are to be believed that major content patches are scheduled for every three months. See if the devs keep their word, and see what they add. Then either praise or badmouth, as the occasion warrants. I'll probrably be doing the same thing
I don't see questing as grinding, I always thought grinding meant sitting at mobs killing them over and over (which I used to do in SWG). Questing levels you up way faster than grinding does in TR, a 2 minute escort mission at level 19 could get you 70K xp and how long does it take you to get 70K xp on mobs even with 250% xp?
When I want to take a break from questing I go to checkpoints and defend/assault it or shop at surplus and chat on general.
Well, questing INCLUDES grinding, it just packages it in a different way.
Eample: a quest in Incline - "Go out and get me 6 Stalker Power Cores!".
Wht do you do? Go out and kill Stalkers, until th 6 power cores drop. In TR they don't make you wait long as a general rule, in other games it might take 150 Stalkers killed to get those 6 power cores.
Either way, you're killing Stalkers over and over. One has a supposed in-game purpose...the other has a personal purpose (to level).. Other than that, no difference.
That's the "jading" I was referring to earlier - when you see things at that level, it's time to take a break.
You need both, but the better it is at hiding the grind, the better...
Which was the point I was making - it's all the same thing, what makes it feel like a "grind" or not is the amount of sugarcoating they put on to hide the fact that it's the Same Old Thing, and has been ever since the early days of videogames. "Grinding" is not specific to MMOS, afeter all